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Posted by: Wew Oct 28 2016, 08:30 PM

gents I need your help. I have been busting my arse on this ride and welding in reinforcement brackets that I can no longer close my doors. Tried cutting near the lift points. Car jacked up doors work car down doesn't work. Please offer guidance and personal experience as the car before opened and closed without issue

Thank you :

Posted by: Wew Oct 28 2016, 08:31 PM

Additional pics

Posted by: 76-914 Oct 28 2016, 08:44 PM

The car length shrunk. There are several posts here addressing that. Your not the first but hopefully the last. Proper bracing and welding techniques prevent this. From those stitch welds I can see it got hot during the welding. A big no-no. Weld 2 or 3 spots on one side, not a freeking 3" span, then move to the other side. An area is ready for additional welding if you can lay your Pecker on it comfortably.

Posted by: Wew Oct 28 2016, 08:46 PM

One more pic. You can see where the top of the door has pinched on itself and actually caused the pain to chip off

Posted by: Wew Oct 28 2016, 09:17 PM

I appreciate the reply and welcome more. I did cut and jack up. Then when spacing was achieved jacking rewelded. As soon as I let the jack down it contracted back.
I would appreciate some guidance regarding proper bracing.. Please advise
Thanks much

Gary

Posted by: draganc Oct 28 2016, 09:41 PM

Do you have any pictures of the area before the welding was done? it would help to assess the original damage, going forward.

here is one elegant way to brace the door while doing any welding:

http://www.tangerineracing.com/tools.htm

you can also use two steel square tubes and weld them in palace overlapped - for easy installation.

the previous post have already commented that the mistake was that the car wasn't braced and too much heat was inserted.
relax, before you do any next steps, search the forum who has done the same repair.

you will eventually end up cutting out your previous fix - as you have already done, "relax" the chassis and brace it back to spec and function. Than, weld back the repair SLOWLY!

post a lot of pics and ask a lot of questions. the forum is a great source of knowledge and members that want to help.

Posted by: draganc Oct 28 2016, 09:43 PM

PS: btw, your welds look rather nice....

Posted by: Wew Oct 28 2016, 10:03 PM

Thanks for the compliment on the welds. Where does one weld the brackets to maintain proper spacing?
Would like to apply the two steel square tube solution.
Any write ups and images on this forum?

Thanks a bunch and taking the time for feedback,

Gary

Posted by: Garold Shaffer Oct 28 2016, 10:58 PM

With the Tangerine racing kit you don't weld the brackets in. You remove the doors and use where the door bolts on and the door latch bolts on. You adjust the door gap by turning the rod ends to get the correct opening width.

Posted by: draganc Oct 28 2016, 11:00 PM

IMHO, one of the best source for rust repair:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=16748&hl=rustoration


you will see the door brace on the first few pics.

Posted by: SixerJ Oct 29 2016, 04:23 AM

Sad news indeed and a lot of work to get back to where you started. The good news is there are some really experienced guys here who will provide sage advice. I second the digging into hell hole thread

This will also be your friend http://www.914world.com/specs/914info.php click under dimensions and there are diagrams & measurements to figure out just how far out you are now and where you need to get back to

Don't think about bracing between roll bar and screen frame! You will just make matters worse and bend the screen, use the door bar method as suggested

Good luck

Posted by: wndsrfr Oct 29 2016, 05:41 AM

If the door fits properly when on the jack, then I think your problem is that the underside of the longitudinal is weak, allowing the sag when off of the jack....post a pic of that area....did you do any welding there?

Posted by: wndsrfr Oct 29 2016, 05:42 AM

If the door fits properly when on the jack, then I think your problem is that the underside of the longitudinal is weak, allowing the sag when off of the jack....post a pic of that area....did you do any welding there?

Posted by: cary Oct 29 2016, 07:39 AM

I concur with John ................ there's more to the story.

Posted by: Curbandgutter Oct 29 2016, 08:03 AM

Priceless advice I'll remember next time I'm welding.

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 29 2016, 10:06 AM

Hate to check the temp too early with the pecker test. ZOIKS!

Posted by: Wew Oct 29 2016, 10:34 AM

Thanks for all the input and direction.
The pecker test is the best and worst.
I will not mess around and purchase the kit from tangerine racing.
I will remove all rocker brackets.
Do I need to remove the one on the back?
Will explore further on the lower rockers.

Thanks fellas and keep the tips and advice coming.

I won't get through this without you,

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 29 2016, 10:44 AM

I'm in Petaluma and in the process of chassis stiffening. If you'd like to swing by and take a look at the Tangerine braces in action, PM me and we can meet up.
I've also added a feature that allows me to run the brace with the doors on the car. I didn't invent it, gurus like RickS and Jeff Hail have been doing it for years.
You can see some detailed pics in my Build Off thread, too.

Note that Chris Foley (Tangerine) has plans for an update to allow the doors to stay on. Check w/him on when that may be available. Else you can do something like I did.

Chris

Posted by: Wew Oct 29 2016, 11:06 AM

"
No welding there. I will look closer. Did the ice pick test along with close visual. Of course exterior rocker panels emoted for paint.
Hell hole atleast near battery tray and engine compartment looked good
Me and a bud stood in the car near each door when I first purchased car. 350 lbs between the two of us and the door opened and shut.
I will continue to dig and I just ordered the tool from tangerine racing
Stay tuned.

Posted by: Wew Oct 29 2016, 11:08 AM

Awesome Chris thanks much and I will give you a call to coordinate a time to swing by.
Thanks again

Posted by: Wew Oct 29 2016, 11:28 AM

Progress. Just spoke with Chris at tangerine racing, great guy and very helpful. Chris in Petaluma thanks for the info. Yes Chris of tangerine does have a new kit that allows you to keep the doors on so I got the pieces for that.
Chris walked me through the process over the phone and provided great advice and guidance.

Chris In Petaluma I will be in touch soon.

Thanks,

Gary

Posted by: shoguneagle Oct 29 2016, 11:29 AM

You are getting some of the best advice around. I remember a lot of years ago when I did my second 914 and these guys were not around. I still shutter in remembering how lucky I was when I did my stress kits. Back then the suppliers were very helpful such as Chris, and the members would all chip in advice as they are doing here. I do remember the mistakes I made which are the ones you are experiencing now.

You have chosen a great car and are associated with a great group.

Have fun and enjoy the process; that is part of what these cars are all about.

Steve's and

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 29 2016, 11:31 AM

I'm setting Gary up with a brace set to include the update.
The technique I suggest is welding a steel plate on the bottom of the inner long to compensate for the shrinkage on the top.
On the phone I recommended a 6" long piece below the jack posts, but after viewing the pictures, I think it may be wise to do another 6" piece below the front of the door openings as well. That will help lift the back edge of the door a little bit.

Posted by: Wew Oct 29 2016, 11:37 AM

Got it!

Posted by: xperu Oct 29 2016, 04:05 PM

You are absolutely right. It was one of the saddest day I had in a long time. After having my inner long stiffening kit installed, my gaps look like yours. When jacking my car up my gaps widened like yours. I thought I could stiffen it up and possibly maintain the with long over lay clamps from restoration design. Well the car is much stiffer, but the poor gap is the same. "Nothing wrong with the restoration design clamps, they did what they wee intended to do".
I'm just sick over this, I just really feel bad, hopefully things will work out for you, I'll watch this thread. So sad, maybe there is still hope for my 914. Mike

Posted by: mb911 Oct 30 2016, 08:54 AM

It's all about counteracting. Shrinking forces.. I use to show the Lincoln electric movie about Mr shrink to my welding students. It is actually still relavint even though it's from the 60s.. This can and will be remedied.. Best of luck and stay patient it can be fixed.

Posted by: mlindner Oct 30 2016, 08:58 AM

Wew, I had the same thing happen when I had the existing roll cage tied into the suspension area (doors would not shut). they had to cut the new tubing and add 1/8 inch, reweld....all good. Best, Mark

Posted by: Catorse Oct 30 2016, 10:25 AM

Something is wrong with your car; it has some other flexing issue that hasn't been resolved. To give you an idea, I don't know of anyone who has more welding done to my car than yours:

- Outer long kit
- inner long kit
- tangerine pickup point kit
- every spot welded seam in the car seam welded.

I did WEEKS of welding on my car. I am the only person I know of with an INNER and OUTER long kit. Yes, I like my cars stiff.

I did not use any bracing, and the doors close just fine.

First, I jacked the car way high from it's hockey pucks. I measured each one to make sure the car was sitting level (my garage slab is fairly level).

Then I did the outer longs first, clamped in place, always checking to see if the car warped. It did not. After the outer long kit was in place, the car was SUPER stiff, like having an I beam for a long. From there I did the inners, etc.

basically I judiciously tacked everything in place then stitched small sections at a time and jumped around to not heat anything up.

When I set the car down, she was perfectly flat with no warping or weirdness.

You can't just throw metal on the car and start welding. You need to make sure the car is flat first.

Posted by: mbseto Oct 31 2016, 09:50 AM

Here's the ne plus ultra of door braces. You will either be inspired or depressed. If it's the latter, don't read the rest of this thread!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=111490&st=133#

Posted by: 76-914 Oct 31 2016, 10:57 AM

Here's the link to Mr Shrink. Worth viewing; thx. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vuGlcbDwKY

Posted by: mb911 Oct 31 2016, 11:05 AM

For sure kind of a good view

Posted by: Wew Nov 1 2016, 12:00 AM

Watched the video. Oldie but a goodie.
Another classic example of how shrinkage is no good.
Thanks for all the input.
Hope to get tangerine kit by the weekend and will be performing the fix then.
I know now that I over did my welds which caused the shrinkage.
Where there is a will there is a way and I will not let this problem defeat me or my ride.
Please continue with the advice and chime in with any additional words of wisdom.

Thanks again and much work to do.

Gary

Posted by: euro911 Nov 1 2016, 12:37 AM

Being an old fart, Kent probably knows more about 'shrinkage' than you youngin's could imagine

Posted by: mb911 Nov 1 2016, 01:53 PM

My students still laugh when I make them watch it.. But learn from it.

Posted by: 76-914 Nov 1 2016, 05:19 PM

Hey, I resemble that remark.

Posted by: tomo Nov 2 2016, 09:40 AM

There's some great brace ideas here. This is what I used for my 912 Targa. With the doors on and Targa top installed I was able to turn the turnbuckle to get the door gaps I wanted before metal removal and welding.

Missing my 914

Tom