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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Pushrod tube seal replacement

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 24 2005, 02:50 PM

I pay over $600 at the "Porsche" place to get them replaced...perfect. I take them to the VW guy to get them replaced, $20 labor and parts and nada....i know the guy is cheap, this is why "I"want to do them myself. Somebody PLEASE tell me how to clean the ports up (where the seals go) cause the VW guy says that's what is needed and he can't do them real well.

Posted by: 914rrr Apr 24 2005, 03:16 PM

Elbow grease, patience, scotchbrite pads and some type of solvent that you won't mind running down your arm. Simple green, full strength, may work for that. Make sure the new pushrod tubes seals are viton.

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 24 2005, 03:19 PM

carb cleaner was suggested.....so i've personally never seen under my valve colver....and i've only seen heads that were all dismantled...anybody have a pic of the area i will be working with so i can ask specific questions....i suppose my fear is starting to spray carb cleaner where it isnt supposed to go....like down the pushrod tube....and once i pull it i have to somehow remove the old seal deposits.....

Posted by: scotty b Apr 24 2005, 03:30 PM

You've had this car for 3 months and have spent $620.00 on your push rod seals?? Why not spend that loot having Jake rebuild your heads?? Or spend it on the Suby conversion, Or spend it on the V8 swap!You either need to get a new car again or a new mechanic! The areas that will need cleaning are the four holes on the bottom of the head and the four corresponding holes on the block. The tubes will need to be removed to do this so buy a new set of seals first. Remove the tubes by twisting and pulling at the same time. You will first have to remove the rockers and push rods. Yes dissassemble the valve train!Once tyhe tubes are out clean the surface where the tubes enter the block and where they enter the heads. There should be NO residue left behind. Examine your tubes to make sure they are not bent,broken,mangled or rusted, put the new seals on and lube with some vaseline. Re-insert the tubes and turn while pushing until you feel the tube "snap" in. Twist the tube afew more times to ensure it is seated and re-install push rods and rockers. Reset valves, install new valve cover gaskets and valve covers. Install for sale sign and place on the front lawn before it blows up!

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 24 2005, 03:33 PM

okay okay i was fecetious....i've had this car for over 2 years and spent over 4Gs on it.....the oil leaks are getting real old....i dont *THINK* i could finance a engine from Jake, otherwise i would

Posted by: scotty b Apr 24 2005, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Apr 24 2005, 01:33 PM)
okay okay i was fecetious....i've had this car for over 2 years and spent over 4Gs on it.....the oil leaks are getting real old....i dont *THINK* i could finance a engine from Jake, otherwise i would

It's a German car...the oil leaks never get old I've had VW's,Porsches and Mercedes and werkd on many Audis and BMW's and they all leak. It's part of the "mistique" Oh yeah Jeeps and Chevys do it too

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 24 2005, 04:00 PM

so every person has smokescreen syndrome when they turn on the heat?

Posted by: Lawrence Apr 24 2005, 05:20 PM

That smokescreen is from oil leaking onto the heat exchangers under the engine. The oil cooks, and the smoke gets sucked into the fresh air intake.

The answer? Fix your leaks, and then take apart your heater ducting and run it through the dishwasher to get rid of the grime inside.

-Rusty

Posted by: redshift Apr 24 2005, 06:30 PM

Take your heaterboxes off, and spackle the crappy joints with JB Weld, then paint them thickly with hightemp crappy paint.

M

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 24 2005, 11:32 PM

speaking of heaterboxes, i was trying to install my console heater lever and found out that the heater pull=push cable broke....excellent ! oh and oil was dripping from the boxes as well.

Posted by: dmenche914 Apr 25 2005, 03:48 AM

To answer your question.

You need to clean the areas that seal, and also have the surrounding area very spotless also (this is just as important as the seal area)

You want to be sure the O-ring, which is pre-attached to the push rod tube does not pick up any dirt during installation.

You can have a lot of grit up under the cylinders, and tucked up in the upper nocks and crannies that are hidden above the tubes on both the case, and head ends.

For staters, before pulling the tubes from the motor, give the bottom of the motor a good cleaning with degreaser and hose it off, next using brushes and paint thinner and some spray carb cleaner, remove as much grit and dirt from all around the tube ends, get up between the tube and engine with the brush,

Once all is pretty clean pull the rockers. Be sure to mark rockers, and all other parts to assure they go back in the original location, do not mix them up. Like wise with the push rods, number them with a little masking tape "flag" wrapped around, and write on it, also identify which end goes to the lifters, make sure you put them back in the same location AND direction.

The tubes caan now be removed, some gental twisting with pliers on the outside usually works, but do not dent them if you intend to reuse them. If already dented, you might need to replace them, as a dent might cause rubbing inside on the push rod, it will leave marks if it does. So examin the push rods for wear marks, and see if it corresponds to a dent (a prior owner might have replaced a dented tube, but the wear mark on the rod will still be there, so confirm the dent matches the rods wear location before condemming the tube.)

Now you'll need to do the final cleaning, first stuff the lifter bores with paper towels to keep out dirt, carefully brush off, away from the bore any loose grit that may be near the bore that the paper towel might drag on into the bore when you put the towel in the bore. Cleanliness is very important, you do not want even one bit of grit in that bore!

Once the bores are sealed, clean with spray carb cleaner, and a brush / rag untill the entire area near the lifter bore, and the head are clean. Also you might have gotten some dirt in the rocker area in the head as you pulled out the tube, so inspect and clean it also.

Clean the old tubes if re-using and install the O-rings, Use Viton, else you will be doing this again much sooner. Viton resists the temperature, and engine chemicals much better than about any other rubber material.

Oil them O-rings with engine oil before putting them on the tubes, also oil the the tube ends. This will help prevent O-ring twisting or tearing.

Oil the O-ring surfaces on the lifter bores, and head end holes, and install the tubes, Since the lifter bore hole engages the bottom end of the O-ring last, you can get at it, and you will generally find you need to gently poke at the oiled O-ring to coach it in without it catching and tearing on the bore lip. A popsicle stick or other non-pointed stick can be used to help push the o-ring in. Make sure the O-ring does not get twisted.

Only after the o-ring is fully engages in the lifter bore end, can you gently tap with a soft hammer the tube from the head side, it should be pushed in until it stops, all the way. As the O-ring on the head side starts to engage the head, make sure it does not catch and tear.

Now re-assemble, putting parts back in the original location, and use a torque wrench on the nuts, with new lock washers. Now is also a very good time to inspect the adjuster tops for wear. If the adjuster tops are mushed flat, they need to be replaced. They should have a shallow dome shape, and they also need to hit the valve stem slightly off center. The dome shape, and the slightly off center contact give the valve a very slight rotation on each hit. This valve rotation reduces valve seat leakage, as it is sort of self lapping each time it rotates. Changing spacers on the rocker shaft allows adjustment to rocker spacing to get the adjuster screw slightly off dead center of the valve stem.

Do not use any sealants or glues on the O-ring seals, and remeber a twisted or torn Oring will likely leak. Viton costs a little more, but it is far superior, and with the labor to replace, well, you do the math. Cleanleness is important, you got the guts of the engine opened up to an area that tends to get road dirt and grit built up, and you will be bumping this tube thru the spaces and cannot allow any grit to ruin the seal, or worse the lifter bores.

So $600 or so might be worth it to some folks, depends on how much time you have, and desire to do this, it is dirty (the clean up part), you need a good place to work, have the right tools. You can shop around for a lower price, and I am sure their are places where it can be done cheaper, but you might end up without someone taking the time to do it right, so besure the shop or person you pick to do the work understands how to do it right, verses slapping it together fast and dirty. I have on several engines, upon dissassembly found torn or twisted O-rings, which could have only happened with a sloppy installation, I have seen big dents on top or side of the push rod tube, that had really rubbed down the push rod, since the dents where up where road debries could not have done them, I figure they were used, and re-installed with big dents rather than dented in use, again a sloppy job.

Posted by: groot Apr 25 2005, 08:27 AM

Excellent explanation! Thanks!

I need to replace my tube seals. Do I need to drop the engine, or can it be done with the engine installed? If it's one of those jobs that's really hard to do if the engine's in the car, I'll drop it.

Posted by: Mueller Apr 25 2005, 11:22 AM

QUOTE (groot @ Apr 25 2005, 07:27 AM)
Excellent explanation! Thanks!

I need to replace my tube seals. Do I need to drop the engine, or can it be done with the engine installed? If it's one of those jobs that's really hard to do if the engine's in the car, I'll drop it.

groot,
you can leave the engine in the car.....

bd1308,

there is no f'n way your mechanic would only charge $20 to replace the seals, the parts alone cost that much...it's job that should take at least an hour if you have a lift, 2 hours or so if you have to lay on your back underneath the car....

it's a simple R&R (remove and replace) job...the part of the install that one could royally screw up is over tightening the nuts that hold on the rocker assemblies...not too sure what it is off hand right now, i want to say 10ftlbs, but don't hold me on that...look it up in the manual....

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 25 2005, 11:28 AM

okay it was $160 for everything....including fuel pump install (no biggie), brand new sexy-looking relay, looking at heating stuff, valve adjustment and pushrod tube seal, and he also re-did my throttle return spring setup....he's a real good friend to me too, so he treats me well

Posted by: dmenche914 Apr 25 2005, 11:30 AM

Do not know if they can be replaced while motor is installed, I do have doubts that they all could be, it is so tight under there, besides it would be difficult to to see everthing, and you need to watch the seal on the lifter side very carefully as it goes in to assure the O-ring does not tear or twist.

I'd dirve the car to an engine wash place and clean the underside then remove motor and do the work. Also draint he oil before dropping the motor, cause when you do the seals, you will find you need to turn the motor on end to have better access, the oil will leak out whent eh engine is tilted. Since the motor is out, you might consider inspection of the clutch, and replacement of the flywheel oil seal if it is really old, or you suspect leaks there also.

Also remember that the motor needs to breath, so besure you have the crank case breather hose attached to the aircleaner, you may have to rig something if you have aftermarket carbs. With out proper vented breathing, pressure build up can cause oil leaks.

My vote is drop the motor, it would be easier to do a quality job that way in my opinion.

good luck

Posted by: Mueller Apr 25 2005, 11:34 AM

Dave, I am 100% positive you do not have to drop the motor.....I've done this a few times....I do agree with pressure washing the underside of the motor before you start...makes it a little nicer

Posted by: groot Apr 25 2005, 11:43 AM

Cool. I've got a gasket set on order and I'll do this next weekend.

I got a meatball (mechanical flag) for blowing smoke on Saturday at the GingerMan National during qualifying. The biggest leaks are these pushrod tube seals... I think the oil is dripping onto the header.

I've got a beather setup, I'm pushing the crap out of the this motor and it's absolutely necessary.... and the clutch and pressure plate are new, just replaced them a week ago along with my trans rebuild.

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 25 2005, 11:50 AM

back to the subject....i kinda wanted to keep the motor in the car anyway, i just need to buy some jackstands and floor jack... pressure washing sounds good and i can get rid of the oil oh the heat exchnagers anyway......simple green for solvent? i'm gonna post pics bc i'll have tons O questions when i start

Posted by: Mueller Apr 25 2005, 11:57 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Apr 25 2005, 10:50 AM)
back to the subject....i kinda wanted to keep the motor in the car anyway, i just need to buy some jackstands and floor jack... pressure washing sounds good and i can get rid of the oil oh the heat exchnagers anyway......simple green for solvent? i'm gonna post pics bc i'll have tons O questions when i start

i'm confused, do you need the seals replaced or did he already do them??

i like Castrol SuperClean better than Simple Green, but everyone has thier preferences...

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 25 2005, 12:12 PM

if HE did them, why are you doing them again?

im confused

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 25 2005, 12:13 PM

he replaced them, but told me they will prolly go out again. he said he just cant get them clean enough for the surfaces to mate well or something,and its because the 914 is real tight....

Posted by: Mueller Apr 25 2005, 12:30 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Apr 25 2005, 11:13 AM)
he replaced them, but told me they will prolly go out again. he said he just cant get them clean enough for the surfaces to mate well or something,and its because the 914 is real tight....

your mechanic scares me

the seals should easily last you for another 5 years.....hopefully by that time you'll be finished with school, have a "real" job and will be able to put a fresh motor it the 914....

Posted by: dmenche914 Apr 25 2005, 03:41 PM

if mike says it can be done with motor in car, then it can, Mike knows his stuff. I have only done it with motor out. I hate laying on my back under the car, dirt falling on me, etc... besides my car is outside, I can bring the motor into my shop and work on the the bench. If you have no other reason to pull the motor, then do it in the car

Posted by: ThinAir914 Apr 25 2005, 03:59 PM

Mike is right that you can do this with the engine in the car, but it is far easier if you can drop the engine because of the tight space between the frame and the heads.

For sure you want to use the carwash pressure washer so you can see a little better just where the oil is coming from. Although pushrod tube seals can go start to leak, it is far more likely that your leak is coming from the valve covers or the oil pressure sender. Cleaning up the engine so you can watch for leaks as it is running will give you a good idea if it is really the PR tube seals. PR tube seals tend to leak mostly if they are very old (and brittle) or if they were cut during the installation. Valve covers leak more often and are easily fixed with a new set of gaskets and perhaps bending the bale slightly to get a tighter fit.

For the oil pressure sender, check the top of the engine, near the distributor. A leak from the sender will travel down the engine and drip off of the bottom of the oil filter (and get blown around onto the HEs). If there is oil on top of the sender or on top of the engine near it then the sender is likely leaking. The sender is easy to replace (and cheap), but you need to treat the new sender to a coating of silicone where the plastic top meets the metal casing. This is because new senders tend to leak there and this helps prevent the leak from getting started. Also, do not use any treatment on the threads (like teflon tape). The threads are tapered and never leak unless the sender is just loose.

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 25 2005, 04:04 PM

the only thing that scares me is jack-stands....but bitching about my car not working and not doing anything myself is getting old to me and you all (for sure). So this weekend or next, I'm getting me some jackstands (good stable but high ones???) and a floor jack and i'm gonna at least hit my engine with some degreaser or carb cleaner(dont like that idea) or simple green (thats the ticket!)....or i think mueller mentioned some Castrol SuperClean ™ to use.... i dunno. I also need to replace my heater pull cable (broke it) an i need to repair my battery tray....and look at the longs....mike, as far as the seals are concerned, the mechanic says the seals wont adhere real well cause he cant get them clean enough.....so i'm going to do it....i just need to sell some/most of my computer and car stuff....

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 25 2005, 04:06 PM

i have valve cover gaskets.....i'll do that next weekend....prolly havent been changed anyway....

Posted by: ThinAir914 Apr 25 2005, 04:08 PM

I'll add my vote for Castrol Super-Clean. It's by far the best cleaner that I've found for this kind of job. Just make sure that you wear some kind of gloves to keep the spray from getting on your hands, and make sure the wind doesn't blow the spray into your face! I've used this to clean my engine compartment and it was clean enough to eat from. I washed it off quickly enough that it did not harm my paint at all.

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 25 2005, 04:12 PM

paint from the tin..? what paint are you referring to?

Posted by: Mueller Apr 25 2005, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Apr 25 2005, 03:12 PM)
paint from the tin..? what paint are you referring to?

the engine tin is painted, no paint equals rust since they are metal....

Posted by: ThinAir914 Apr 25 2005, 04:22 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Apr 25 2005, 03:12 PM)
paint from the tin..? what paint are you referring to?

I'm referring to body paint in the engine compartment. Castrol Super-Clean is said by many to be something that you do not want to use on painted surfaces because it will harm the paint. I've used it successfully on the paint in the engine compartment as well as the underside of the trunk (above the transmission) and because I did not leave it on too long before rinsing it did not harm the paint at all.

I've found the paint on engine parts tends to be pretty tough so that you don't need to worry about it like you would about body paint. I've also used Super-Clean on engine tin that I was intending to repaint as part of an overhaul and I found it to be one of the best cleaners around for prepping the tin for painting. The Super-Clean helped me get the tin ready for painting, but was not the cause of needing to paint the tin.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 25 2005, 04:24 PM

dont get super clean on your skin.....

i do it all the time and it gives me small chem. burns

Posted by: mihai914 Apr 25 2005, 04:29 PM

Castrol Super Clean is really strong stuff, if you let your hands soak it, the skin is going to peel off the next day.

In a friendly way... If you are serious about keeping a 914, you'd better get your sleeves up and get to work. The car is very simple so it's also simple to fix, just like computers except dirtyer

The more time will pass, the harder it will be to find a good mechanic to work on your car because the old ones like the Capt'n will eventually retire and the new ones won't know what to do if you can't plug a computer on to a car!

As for your problem, you've got a great writeup from dmenche914, I've done it with the engine out of the car it's much easier, but if Mike says it's doable with the engine in place then it is, the key is to get the tubes to slip in and not cut the seals.

Oh and put tires under the car for extra safety, never trust jackstands alone, and block the front wheels!

Posted by: scotty b Apr 25 2005, 05:58 PM

Britt you REALLY need to find a new mechanic. This guy has steered you wrong more times than i can remember lately. You JUST had your valves done and you think your valve cover gaskets haven't been replaced ? That is part of a valve job bro.As for the tube seals, you've had them "replaced" twice to the tune of $620.00 and they still leak....A=you're being hosed.....B=you've got 2 bad mechanics, one being a dealership guy.......C=Your engine is the biggest crack ridden pile ever to drive the face of the earth! I'm doubting C, as you have told us of other "misstatements" by your VW "mechanic" so I'm down to A and B.Ask us first and then TRUST us instead of questioning our info,no one here is going to steer you wrong (knowingly) then proceed with the repair. How much did you know about computers before you got into them??? Take the advise and take your time, be cautious and make sure you buy quality stands. Don't get all boned up about werking on your own car and fuch something up cause you are excited!!

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 25 2005, 07:28 PM

gotya...i knew very little about computers and now i can build a P4 desktop in 15 minutes