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Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 8 2016, 10:04 PM

I am no Porsche expert although I have owned a few over the years. Ran across a 914 in a warehouse that is supposedly a 914/6. It has a 914/6 VIN stamped into the front right apron that looks factory (914043xXXX) The engine numbers match, trans numbers match and it has all of the 914/6 details that I could find like five bolt Fuchs, correct gauges, ignition, wiring harness, engine mounts, oil cooler, rear valance, etc. But the owner says he does not think it is a real 914/6 car. It has been in the warehouse for over 30 years and needs restoration but it is a very solid and straight car.

Engine is out as is the trans. The rear fuchs are a little wider than the fronts. The owner is asking me to make him an offer. So what I need to know is
a. What is this car worth if it has ALL of the 914/6 stuff and it is NOT a real car?, and
b. What would it be worth in this condition if it WAS a real car?


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Posted by: SirAndy Dec 8 2016, 10:14 PM

That is a real /6 VIN.

However, the car could still be stitched together. You won't know until you can inspect the underbody more closely.

Assuming that it is a real /6 and nothing major is missing, that it has the numbers matching engine and trans, i'd say you're looking at a minimum of 50k ...


PS:

Posted by: bdstone914 Dec 8 2016, 10:51 PM

If the owner does not think it is a real six let him put a number on what he thinks it is worth. Might be a a lot less than what they go for. As Andy said it need a much closer look. Minor detail but it has a rain tray an 6' did not have one. Could be a swapped lid. Why is the engine and trans out? Engine turn over?

Posted by: mepstein Dec 9 2016, 06:13 AM

Does it have mounts or evidence of once having the engine mounts from a four cylinder car? They aren't impossible to hide but it takes a bit of work.

There are small differences on a 6. Like reduced strength torsion springs for the engine lid since it didn't have a rain tray. I think the stamping in the trunk might be different in a 6. But if it has the engingine mounts for the crossbar of a four cylinder engine. Bingo!

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 9 2016, 06:59 AM

I will have to go back and check more details. So let's say it DOES have the -4 engine mounts. What would the value of the car be with all of the correct 914/6 parts? Basically a regular 914 with all of the parts from a 914/6 including a correct VIN that looks original and un-tampered with? The VIN it has does not appear in any registry.


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Posted by: mepstein Dec 9 2016, 07:23 AM

Its up to you if you want to get involved with a vin switched car. It could be anywhere from a hassle with your DMV to a illegal vehicle. You might want to get some independent legal advice before you purchase.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 9 2016, 07:24 AM

To many variables really. Pull it out and take some pictures and look at the entire car as well as the underneath. How did you verify the VIN, engine and transaxle are all original to the same car? Oh,

Lots of knowledgable people here, but you need to provide more info for them to go from to form a basis for a value.

Posted by: smg914 Dec 9 2016, 07:28 AM

I see that it has a 914-4 engine lid drip pan.

Posted by: Kaeferfreund Dec 9 2016, 08:04 AM

Without knowing the complete VIN there is much speculation in it.

In some well known archives or databases there will be some additional information. Perhaps it is mentioned what happend in the past with the car.

First I would advise you to ask one of these experts here:

http://www.stazak.com/914reg/reg.html

http://p914-6info.net/index.htm

http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/sales_history_9146_916

Good Luck!

Posted by: 6freak Dec 9 2016, 08:44 AM

pictures sir! but look n at the rain tray and the wheels i smell a fish

Posted by: GeorgeRud Dec 9 2016, 09:50 AM

That's a 1970 VIN, so it should have non-retractable seat belts, a field passenger seat, and no flat metal circular support around the front spare tire. Check the VIN on the windshield pillar as well. The ignition key should be on the left of the steering column.

There's nothing bad about a converted six, in fact they're actually a better car due to the many updates that most owners have made. However, if the VIN has been tampered with, run away as fast as you can or you'll be facing legal troubles down the road!

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 9 2016, 10:30 AM

rain tray, there is a first for everything

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 9 2016, 10:40 AM

In the 47 years since these cars were made a lot could have happened to them. Worth checking it out in person. Who knows maybe it is legit despite a couple issues from the picture. Could be a decent car.

The only thing that would cause me to walk away from it, assuming the condition is as it appears in the photo for the entire car, is a VIN swap. I have no idea if that is the case here, and do NOT want to infer that is the case, just saying. Good luck.

Posted by: jd74914 Dec 9 2016, 10:46 AM

Ask what they are thinking; you'd need to know anyways. Unless we're talking about a little old lady selling off the cars from her late husband to keep a roof over her head, or some other situation like that, its the seller's responsibility to research and know what they have. Don't give any cards out.

Posted by: 396 Dec 9 2016, 11:07 AM

First you're one lucky guy to have come across this find. It sure beats buying a 914 that has been sitting out side in the elements...where you possibly have to replace say 1/3 of the chassis. I'm not saying its bad,but at what cost and time.

Regarding some of the posted suggestions, they are great...as in school, do your homework. Regarding the rain tray ..how about the original owner updated this to protect the 40 mm webbers?

Good luck with your journey.

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 9 2016, 11:09 AM

The engine/trans numbers are within the range of what was supposed to be on that production run. I have not purchased a COA. I am interested in the car to drive and enjoy. The car is being sold by a family member since the brother moved out of the country 25 years ago and has no plans of returning. It is ONLY being sold on a "make an offer" basis and I am currently the only one they are asking. They will then relay the offer for a yes or no. Yes, I have seen the car in person so it is not an internet scam. I can't talk to the actual owner because he is in Spain and just does not want to be bothered at all and has given the brother the right to sell the car with a free and clear title and a power of attorney. I will be going back next week with more details to check thanks to the suggestions here as well as research I've done. That's why I am trying to figure out what this is worth based on the "Real" or "not real" scenarios. I know i can finish it, drive it, enjoy it and register it as-is with no problems. I just want to know value wise for real or not real so when I figure out what it really is, my offer is within range for what it really is.

Posted by: toolguy Dec 9 2016, 11:36 AM

Looking it at if from a different perspective, It's going to cost anywhere from 30K to 50k in parts and paint to restore. . plus about a year of your labor. . so the buy in has to be low enough to justify final investment. . . until you know the extent of repairs, motor build and trans work it's just a wild ass guess. Missing Six parts are expensive to locate and purchase.
Given what you pictured, I'd not want to pay much more than 20K assuming everything is there and the vin's are all correct, not swapped. Putting a Six back to correct factory
produced condition is a time and money consuming investment. Done right, full restoration with numbers matching motor and trans, it's an 80K car as a driver and upwards to 100K if absolutely 100% Concour perfect.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 9 2016, 01:28 PM

The biggest question to me is the VIN. If it is in fact a 914-4, then it has had a VIN swap. That is a potentially HUGE issue--as in spending time in a Federal penitentiary huge. (Very unlikely for a buyer, but at the least it could lead to uncomfortable questions from Federal agents and the car getting crushed.)

We know of a silver Six sold recently that is in fact a -4 with a Six VIN retrofitted onto it. (Do a search, there are a couple of threads on it here.) Very Bad Stuff.

If it can be argued that it is a Six with a bunch of -4 pieces on it, that is safer.

If it is indeed a real Six and un-tampered, it can be worth some money. But restoration will not be cheap. For instance, a stock rebuild on the engine can run well into five figures.

--DD

Posted by: Mike Fitton Dec 9 2016, 02:51 PM

Does it have this set of gauges? Note the unusual temperature scale, also the tach would have the 911T redline at 6200 but for the 914-6 the redline graphic is much narrower than on the 911T tach. Also a real 6 should have the chassis number stamped in the floor of the rear trunk towards the rear and centered, the 4's had the number stamped more towards the passenger side of the rear trunk floor.

Posted by: Coondog Dec 9 2016, 03:10 PM

Ok I will give you a number

914-4 offer 2,000

914-6 offer 40,000

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 9 2016, 03:41 PM

I was able to get to see the parts stash for the car stored at a different location. Here are the engine and trans numbers. The trans looks restamped to me, but I am not expert. Font looks smaller than all others I have seen on Porsche transmissions. The trans did have the side shift pieces though and was supposed to be the one that came out of the car. It was converted to accept a larger clutch. Seat belts did NOT have retractors, passenger seat was non-adjustable. Gauges were out of the dash and in a box but looked correct for the 914/6. Airbox was there, they could not find the heat exchangers there. I am going back on Monday to take a closer look at the body.

I am not yet convinced.


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Posted by: gereed75 Dec 9 2016, 03:54 PM

That is a 6 case type number. Not sure about the tranny stampings but the six did not come originally with a side shift although the original tail shift could have been converted.

Look at all the people following this thread Lots of people interested in that engine serial number I am sure!! Good luck

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 9 2016, 04:34 PM

I have given my word that I will not release any numbers from this car. It has always been my position that that information is not mine to give like someone else's social security number or a hot girls phone number. I have appreciated that nobody has asked.

The Engine number codes out to be a correct early USA Engine code for a 1970 914/6. The VIN to the car does NOT appear in any registry, so if you were hoping this might be your engine, sorry, not likely as it has been sitting in this warehouse for about 30 years. If anyone has a specific VIN for their car and want to ask I will give you a yes or no answer.

On the side shift, thing, I misspoke and it is the bracketry for the throttle linkage from what I was told.


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Posted by: GeorgeRud Dec 9 2016, 05:22 PM

It does have the appropriate bracket for a -6 throttle cable on the transmission. Show a photo of the other side of the transmission to determine if it's an original -6 transmission or from a -4. However, like mine, it may have been converted to a side shifting transmission.

If the engine has the original large plastic air cleaner, it will not fit with the rain tray on the engine lid.

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 9 2016, 05:51 PM

I am wondering if the car may have had a rear clip installed. I will check for evidence of repair there and other engine mounts next time I am over there.

Posted by: toolguy Dec 9 2016, 06:17 PM

914-6 transmission have a number on the bottom fin that starts 750xxxx.
The xxxx will be real close to the Karman number stamped in the center of the rear trunk.
That number starts 13xxxx

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 9 2016, 07:14 PM

and the trams ear is broke off

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 9 2016, 07:23 PM

Yes, I saw that. It got dropped and broken off, but there is another end case with the car.

Posted by: carr914 Dec 9 2016, 07:48 PM

I'm not sure where you are in Florida, but Steve & I are in Tampa. Not trying to brag, but I would say that we have a Expert Opinion on 914-6s. We are willing to help without undermining any deal you might have.

I might even know of the car!

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 9 2016, 08:07 PM

Can anyone tell me what a 914/6 engine and trans may be worth needing rebuild and assembly?? Has heads, carbs, intakes, virtually everything.

Posted by: Porschef Dec 9 2016, 08:13 PM

Very simply, knowledge is power, take T.C. up on his offer. I don't know him, but he's been around here a little while, enough so to probably trust implicitly...

It could be a great deal, so is the education that may come along with it.

Posted by: Mike Fitton Dec 9 2016, 08:16 PM

The Karman number in the rear trunk should match the number in the drivers side door jam.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 9 2016, 10:04 PM

Not much--EXCEPT to someone with the 914-6 that it came out of. (Worth somewhere in between to someone with a 914-6 wanting an engine/trans at least of the correct type.) The 914-6 motor was basically a 1969 911T motor, AKA the wimpiest 911 motor ever produced. And a rebuild on it is nearly as expensive as a rebuild on a much higher-powered and better-regarded engine, so demand for them is relatively low.

--DD

Posted by: toolguy Dec 9 2016, 11:18 PM

Not necessarily. . The Karman tag on my original Six has no number stamped. . only the 2 digit paint code.

Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 9 2016, 11:30 PM

Soundd like youve hit the jackpot. As long as rust isnr too bad. You can spend 10k ( a rebuild) on an engine pretty easily. Work backwards to determine your value. 80k ish on a nice sorted car, 25k on paint snd motor if no real issues. Plan on anoter 5k for fudge, easily will put you at 40k. If you can get a better deal great. But the real question is are you in the ballpark?

Posted by: porschetub Dec 10 2016, 03:23 AM

That lid wouldn't close on a factory six air cleaner for starters,all about real numbers now ,appears they might be there ???
Yea those whimpy six's ...really ,way better engine than the best stock 2 litre 4 ever was,tell me wrong Dave,sounds like a very random statement.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 10 2016, 07:15 AM

About $8-10k. That's with all the parts you described. Based off what I've gotten for the same parts. Demand for a 911t engine might be lower than the later engines but there is still a demand. Just go on earlySreg. There is still good money moving around for these early engines.

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 10 2016, 08:21 AM

So based on this, if the car is NOT real, I've got about $10,000 in 914/6 parts (engine trans and suspension), and maybe $2,000-$4,000 in a parts car with the wheels? So around $12,000 conservatively?

Another possibility is that it is a rear clipped car fixed from a rear end collision years ago. (that could be another explanation for the broken trans mounting arm) If that is the case, and there is a real 914/6 front clip, and a 914/4 rear clip with all of the 914/6 running gear, what does that make this frankenstein car worth?

I will be able to inspect the body up on jacks next week.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 10 2016, 08:35 AM

There's a lot of pricey parts in a 914-6 besides the engine and trans.

Posted by: bretth Dec 10 2016, 08:43 AM

Another thing the car should have is the throttle/choke lever in front of the shifter. And under the top dash panel might be a hand written VIN number. But then those things still may only just validate the front of the car being real.

Posted by: 396 Dec 10 2016, 08:54 AM

8- 10k for a 914 6 engine is pretty optimistic...unless the buyer has the tub assigned from the factory for it.

But who knows,as the value is in the buyers mind.

Good luck with journey

Posted by: mepstein Dec 10 2016, 09:37 AM

Just based what Ive personally sold those parts for in the past year. Your going to get $2,500 if the Webers are in good shape and $500 for the 914-6 specific air box. I sold a core 914-6 engine for $4k, a 914-6 trans for $2k. Then there is the engine mount, transmission shift rod, couple other mis 914-6 specific parts. Add in heat exchangers and exhaust. $10k easy.

Remember, when you look at the unloved 914-6/ 2.0 T engine. The case sells for a grand, the crank another $1k. Rods, Heads, oil pump, p&c's chain boxes, cam towers, cams, distributor, fan, shroud, alternator, alternator shroud, fiberglass shroud, pressure plate, flywheel, ect.

Start buying these pieces separately and they add up quickly. Many people still want the right size engine in their car.

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 10 2016, 10:13 AM

I cant believe this hasn't come up

motor mount oil tank . dash. windshield tag, A B pillar tags

Hoping the best for you when you get a better viewing

Posted by: Kaeferfreund Dec 10 2016, 01:11 PM

Hi,

due to all the numbers (engine, trans) and spare parts you described, it sounds not so bad.

I would also have a look at some other details, which I think most of the 914world "-6" experts answered here also know very well.

Did you see into the engine bay? If possible look at the left side (oiltank etc.):





It should not look like this side:

Posted by: 396 Dec 10 2016, 01:50 PM

Yes, I agree with you if one takes that approach. I was simply thinking of a short block.

Posted by: forrestkhaag Dec 11 2016, 11:12 AM

I may have missed it in the myriad of responses but how about the bolt pattern on the wheels, the wheels, and more revealing the rear brake calipers / unique to 914's although, switchable......

Posted by: Karguy12 Dec 11 2016, 11:15 AM

It has complete 5 lug correct 914/6 suspension. The rear wheels are wider than factory.

Posted by: Larmo63 Dec 11 2016, 12:28 PM

Offer $12K and go up to 15k.

It would be pretty easy for most of us, and it might take 5 minutes to determine if this is a real /6.

You need an expert to go with you.

Posted by: KELTY360 Dec 15 2016, 03:35 PM

Any new developments?

Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Dec 15 2016, 04:53 PM

Always try to get a price or a range out of the seller before making an offer. You can save yourself a lot of hand wringing this way for three reasons.
1. If you ask for a range and says $75,000-100,000 because he saw an auction where one went for $150,000, then you can just walk away.
2. He might say a number that is very reasonable and then you just pay it.
3. If you make an offer and it's higher than what he thought the car was worth he might start thinking he doesn't know what the car is worth so he goes and does research and then his number and your number are out the window and his new price is full boat or higher.
But when you do go to start talking $$$ bring cash so if you do strike a deal, then you can quickly do the deal, then call a tow truck and pay whatever it takes to get it away from there. Or bring a trailer.

Posted by: orthobiz Dec 16 2016, 04:56 AM

I rammed into someone in the 80's with my totaled 914 and the transmission mounts broke off...

Paul

Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Dec 16 2016, 08:46 AM

This 356A was hit very hard in the rear, it broke the ears off the gearbox.


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