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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Mega squirt vs micro squirt educate me
Posted by: mb911 Dec 10 2016, 05:31 PM
So I am building a 2.4 6 with s pistons, solex cams and ported heads. I have webers and have considered a couple of paths. I have used megasquirt in the past on a 3.2 short stroke turbo engine using an adaptation of the bitz racing kit..
I am considering many things from machining the intakes to accept injectors and using the webers as throttle bodies to making a all sheet metal intake..
I would really like use a ecu that has a usb port etc. I am looking for feed back ..
Utlimatly the system I used before was bullet proof.. Thoughts?
Posted by: Mowog4 Dec 10 2016, 05:48 PM
I am running a MegaSquirt Pro, https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3-pro-standalone-ecu-only/, in my Bugeye Sprite with a rotary 13B, normally aspirated. It was slight overkill, I could have used their less expensive units but I figured who knows what stupidity the future will bring. I am running a Jenvey (DCOE) throttle body, with a steel manifold, https://foxinjection.com/collections/jenvey-twin-throttle-bodies/products/tas48i-ta-body-48mm-single. It has been a great system, was done in a weekend, grabbed an intro fuel map from the web and a dyno tuner had it running great in a few hours. It has been a good system.
Ed
Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 10 2016, 06:19 PM
So I am building a 2.4 6 with s pistons, solex cams and ported heads. I have webers and have considered a couple of paths. I have used megasquirt in the past on a 3.2 short stroke turbo engine using an adaptation of the bitz racing kit..
I am considering many things from machining the intakes to accept injectors and using the webers as throttle bodies to making a all sheet metal intake..
I would really like use a ecu that has a usb port etc. I am looking for feed back ..
Utlimatly the system I used before was bullet proof.. Thoughts?
Jenvey TB's? Save the Webers...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Travis Neff Dec 10 2016, 06:22 PM
This looks interesting.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/932541-triumph-itb-aem-infinity-project.html
Posted by: jmill Dec 10 2016, 07:39 PM
This looks interesting.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/932541-triumph-itb-aem-infinity-project.html
Wow! Now I need to save up more money for this setup. $500 for the manifolds and you're on your way.
Posted by: McMark Dec 10 2016, 08:57 PM
Microsquirt is not a good fit for a six because its only got two injector drivers. You could batch fire three cylinders on each driver, and it would work fine, but I would run MegaSquirt on a six.
Posted by: 914forme Dec 11 2016, 05:57 AM
Been considering the same thing.
I will go SDS as I have it, but MegaSquirt Pro would have been my next choice. The TBs are the big piece for me also. I have been thinking PMO as they would look stealth, but then the engine would not look stock anyway with a big coil pack hanging around.
But as I have a set of triple speeds laying around, a set of manifolds, and it looks like I am well on my way.
Now to rig up the ignition and fuel timing into the flywheel.
Posted by: mb911 Dec 11 2016, 07:25 AM
Microsquirt is not a good fit for a six because its only got two injector drivers. You could batch fire three cylinders on each driver, and it would work fine, but I would run MegaSquirt on a six.
That's exactly what I was wondering.
I am really just thinking about down the road.. I like the idea of just custom manifolds and using webers as the throttle bodies then it looks pretty cool..
On the sheet metal intake any thoughts on this?
Posted by: gereed75 Dec 11 2016, 08:26 AM
Consider using MFI throttle bodies and stacks. They can be had fairly cheaply if you shop around and are patient - typically about half of what Jenevy or PMO or others go for
Use MFI heads. The injector ports are already there. Then use megasquirt or any other system of choice
Jaimie Novak sells parts for these MFI conversions at classicautowerks.com. Posts as Jpnovak on pelican.
Achieves the goal and keeps the classic look.
Posted by: mepstein Dec 11 2016, 08:59 AM
Consider using MFI throttle bodies and stacks. They can be had fairly cheaply if you shop around and are patient - typically about half of what Jenevy or PMO or others go for
Use MFI heads. The injector ports are already there. Then use megasquirt or any other system of choice
Jaimie Novak sells parts for these MFI conversions at classicautowerks.com. Posts as Jpnovak on pelican.
Achieves the goal and keeps the classic look.
I probably have 2.4 mfi or cis heads. I have T stacks. Not sure if I have any throttle bodies left. Maybe.
Posted by: jpnovak Dec 11 2016, 08:59 AM
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Let me add a few more details on my system.
I have been running Microsquirt units on a few recent installs. I like them because they are small enough to fit inside the tunnel access by the shift coupler for a near-hidden install. I run integrated spark and fuel. The microsquirt has fewer I/O ports but these are seldom needed on a NA engine.
I do run 2 banks and alternating batch fire. Saw a significant increase in mid-range torque on a recent hot-rod 3.0 when switching from webers to TWM/EFI.
I am a big fan of EFI and maintaining vintage aesthetics. What 2.4 heads do you have? If MFI heads I can supply adapters and screw into the MFI injection ports and hold injectors. I use BMW application Seimens Deka injectors that have the long tip. The tip is located right at the edge of the intake port wall. Exact position depends on port size.
If you have the 73.5 CIS 2.4 heads EFI injector will press it into the exisiting injector port. No adapters needed.
Both of the above are designed to be used with the factory MFI stacks and TBs. This retains the stock linkage and airbox.
I also modify the stock crank pulley for flying magnets and use a discrete hall effect pickup sensor. This give a crank angle pickup signal for timing control. I retain the stock distributor but it is only used for rotor phasing and spark distribution. Basically I take out the least-reliable parts in a distributor: mechanical advance and points.
There are many ways to accomplish what you are after. I agree that EFI is the way to go. What parts do you have? This can steer the decision making process and allowed budget.
Regarding cams... Have you purchased? If you are considering EFI then there are some choices to be made regarding the exact cam specs. What works well for carbs/MFI (98-102 deg lobe center) does not work as well with EFI (I prefer a 106-110 lobe center). This will broaden and flatten the torque curve with the trade off of slightly less peak torque. The overall gains in area under the curve make up for the difference. Small changes really wake these engines up.
btw, I do not want this to be a sales pitch. My adapters work where appropriate. I will not try to steer you into something that will just lead to frustration because its not a good fit for the application.
There are also many good options for ECUs. Since you are familiar with the Megasquirt line you can continue. Otherwise, pick a system that your tuner is familiar with. Nothing worse than EFI with bad programming/tuning.
Posted by: mb911 Dec 11 2016, 10:42 AM
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Let me add a few more details on my system.
I have been running Microsquirt units on a few recent installs. I like them because they are small enough to fit inside the tunnel access by the shift coupler for a near-hidden install. I run integrated spark and fuel. The microsquirt has fewer I/O ports but these are seldom needed on a NA engine.
I do run 2 banks and alternating batch fire. Saw a significant increase in mid-range torque on a recent hot-rod 3.0 when switching from webers to TWM/EFI.
I am a big fan of EFI and maintaining vintage aesthetics. What 2.4 heads do you have? If MFI heads I can supply adapters and screw into the MFI injection ports and hold injectors. I use BMW application Seimens Deka injectors that have the long tip. The tip is located right at the edge of the intake port wall. Exact position depends on port size.
If you have the 73.5 CIS 2.4 heads EFI injector will press it into the exisiting injector port. No adapters needed.
Both of the above are designed to be used with the factory MFI stacks and TBs. This retains the stock linkage and airbox.
I also modify the stock crank pulley for flying magnets and use a discrete hall effect pickup sensor. This give a crank angle pickup signal for timing control. I retain the stock distributor but it is only used for rotor phasing and spark distribution. Basically I take out the least-reliable parts in a distributor: mechanical advance and points.
There are many ways to accomplish what you are after. I agree that EFI is the way to go. What parts do you have? This can steer the decision making process and allowed budget.
Regarding cams... Have you purchased? If you are considering EFI then there are some choices to be made regarding the exact cam specs. What works well for carbs/MFI (98-102 deg lobe center) does not work as well with EFI (I prefer a 106-110 lobe center). This will broaden and flatten the torque curve with the trade off of slightly less peak torque. The overall gains in area under the curve make up for the difference. Small changes really wake these engines up.
btw, I do not want this to be a sales pitch. My adapters work where appropriate. I will not try to steer you into something that will just lead to frustration because its not a good fit for the application.
There are also many good options for ECUs. Since you are familiar with the Megasquirt line you can continue. Otherwise, pick a system that your tuner is familiar with. Nothing worse than EFI with bad programming/tuning.
Hi Jamie. Thanks for the responses.. To be honest probably just going to run carbs for now and maybe machine some intakes at work as a pet project.. I have mfi heads that supertec is working on now. I will call and talk with henryt Tuesday about options..
Mark I don't mfi stuff yet lol but you never know. More interested in left hand side key conversion
Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 11 2016, 10:53 AM
Been considering the same thing.
I will go SDS as I have it, but MegaSquirt Pro would have been my next choice. The TBs are the big piece for me also. I have been thinking PMO as they would look stealth, but then the engine would not look stock anyway with a big coil pack hanging around.
But as I have a set of triple speeds laying around, a set of manifolds, and it looks like I am well on my way.
Now to rig up the ignition and fuel timing into the flywheel.
Steven, having used SDS for a couple years, my concern is with the first S in SDS. Compared to either Mega or Micro, it's just too simple. It's lack of sophistication, especially in the tuning interface left me struggling to get things just right. When you do something like this, you are wanting it just right. Otherwise bolt up carbs and go!
The prices between the systems are comparable. So, why?
McMark was very patient with me but I think he would have rather done any other system.
Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 12 2016, 01:05 AM
Been considering the same thing.
I will go SDS as I have it, but MegaSquirt Pro would have been my next choice. The TBs are the big piece for me also. I have been thinking PMO as they would look stealth, but then the engine would not look stock anyway with a big coil pack hanging around.
But as I have a set of triple speeds laying around, a set of manifolds, and it looks like I am well on my way.
Now to rig up the ignition and fuel timing into the flywheel.
Steven, having used SDS for a couple years, my concern is with the first S in SDS. Compared to either Mega or Micro, it's just too simple. It's lack of sophistication, especially in the tuning interface left me struggling to get things just right. When you do something like this, you are wanting it just right. Otherwise bolt up carbs and go!
The prices between the systems are comparable. So, why?
McMark was very patient with me but I think he would have rather done any other system.
He says because he already has the system....
BTW on your SDS, let me guess, it always went lean if you kicked down WOT...
Posted by: McMark Dec 12 2016, 09:00 AM
Been considering the same thing.
I will go SDS as I have it, but MegaSquirt Pro would have been my next choice. The TBs are the big piece for me also. I have been thinking PMO as they would look stealth, but then the engine would not look stock anyway with a big coil pack hanging around.
But as I have a set of triple speeds laying around, a set of manifolds, and it looks like I am well on my way.
Now to rig up the ignition and fuel timing into the flywheel.
Steven, having used SDS for a couple years, my concern is with the first S in SDS. Compared to either Mega or Micro, it's just too simple. It's lack of sophistication, especially in the tuning interface left me struggling to get things just right. When you do something like this, you are wanting it just right. Otherwise bolt up carbs and go!
The prices between the systems are comparable. So, why?
McMark was very patient with me but I think he would have rather done any other system.
He says because he already has the system....
BTW on your SDS, let me guess, it always went lean if you kicked down WOT...
It was mostly just the feverish masturbation of buttons trying to navigate to the correct 'bin' that needed adjustment. Oh and the 4-up view of engine readings instead of the Tuner Studio dash were everything is in one place.
My standard caveat applies: SDS works, some people love it, I know it works. It just doesn't fit my needs.
Posted by: 914forme Dec 12 2016, 09:34 AM
Yes have the SDS, actually several different EFI units. And have always wanted to install one. On my EG build I will be changing to MS3 Pro, just to much good stuff like E85 sensor not to go that direction. 
Posted by: Andyrew Dec 12 2016, 10:39 AM
Yes have the SDS, actually several different EFI units. And have always wanted to install one. On my EG build I will be changing to MS3 Pro, just to much good stuff like E85 sensor not to go that direction.
That is an excellent reason to go pro
Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 12 2016, 10:47 AM
My standard caveat applies: SDS works, some people love it, I know it works. It just doesn't fit my needs.
Yep, I hear you...not for everyone. Even my next system will likely be MS.
As for SDS, you do know the new systems have changed a bit.
It still has a pendant, but it's now fully programmable via laptop with datalogging, etc.
If anyone wants an SDS /6, crankfire twin plug system, I have a line on one for a good price.
Includes everything, trigger wheel, sensor mount, two coil packs (twin plug) I believe the plug wire sets, a 1 bar and 2 bar MPS.
Used one season, no issues, bought new in 2014.
Was on a 930 turbo making 450hp at the wheels, no idea why the dude wants to change, runs perfect to me and he's not going to gain anything.
Posted by: McMark Dec 12 2016, 11:33 AM
Didn't realize. I'll take a look at it again to update my brain.
Posted by: mb911 Jan 7 2017, 07:07 PM
Just an update on this thread as my heads are back along with pistons and cylinders.. I have decided to stay carbs for a bit but I have the mfi ports in the heads for Jamie's adapters for fuel injectors.
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