Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: wayner Dec 16 2016, 02:02 PM

How waterproof can a 914 really be made?

Can roof and window leaks be totally eliminated??

Thanks

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 16 2016, 02:15 PM

Well, considering that the factory added drain holes to some parts of the car i'd say your chances are somewhat slim ...

Posted by: PanelBilly Dec 16 2016, 02:21 PM

When I used my car as a DD, I kept a towel in it so my leg wouldn't get wet

Posted by: altitude411 Dec 16 2016, 02:29 PM

Like tight enough to go through the drive thru car wash?

YES!





















If you don't mind getting totally soaked...

Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 16 2016, 02:32 PM

It's not a question of if water can be kept out, it's more of a matter of what % of water can be kept out.

Posted by: wayner Dec 16 2016, 02:35 PM

I guess coming from what I've been told is the best supplier of replacement rubber, then I should expect winter driving to be a little damp ?




Attached image(s)

Posted by: johnhora Dec 16 2016, 03:34 PM

Exactly!

Posted by: 6freak Dec 16 2016, 03:55 PM

Flex Seal! itll float a boat with a screen door for a bottom

Posted by: BeatNavy Dec 16 2016, 04:17 PM

A member here told me at last Hershey that Teeners have always leaked. Even when they were brand new. He's had his teener since his dad bought it new in the 70's and it leaked then.

Made me feel a little better about having to keep those little hand towels in the car.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Dec 16 2016, 04:37 PM

Interesting, is that a big bumper GT rally car? Front pic?

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 16 2016, 04:47 PM

Damn sure wayner used that pic to be funny and it's not his car.
First clue is that's not a Canadian licence plate.

Posted by: Perry Kiehl Dec 16 2016, 04:56 PM

The only 914 that I had that didn't leak was 9140431205 that had the original 1st generation window seals. I never took it through a car wash though.

My first 6 conversion had all new factory seals and I couldn't ever get it to completely seal up, which is why I came up with the first 914 Umbrella cover in 1994

Prior to making the cover, my rock n roll solution was to rip black duct tape lengthwise into long strips and tape it along the window edge. The car was always garaged, and occasional use, so I would only do that when I was away from home and it was going to rain. Didn't work so well when everything was wet though


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GeorgeRud Dec 16 2016, 05:34 PM

I've used umbrella covers on both my 914s and 911 Targa, and find them to be great if the car has to be kept outside. Careful adjustments to the door windows do minimize the leaks, but a towel is always nice to have.

And yes, don't take one through a commercial car wash!

Posted by: flmont Dec 16 2016, 07:00 PM

Well,. they are drier than a MGB,..thats for sure..!! FM

Posted by: wayner Dec 16 2016, 07:54 PM

Unfortunately ,no, that orange car is not mine. It's a rally car back in the day. (Thanks Mark Henry

Here is my car.
(Apparently it leaked a bit)

I'll be updating the thread in the new year

QUESTION:
In order of percentage of success, versus worst offenders, which area can be made more watertight than others and which are the worst that can never be solved?
(Which parts of the window seals, roof etc?)


http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=295321&hl=

Posted by: My 914 Dec 16 2016, 08:03 PM

Along the same lines, how big or small of a problem is water getting into the engine bay through the grill on a rainy day or during washing? I know there are many engine configurations in 914's these days and I'm sure that some are more sensitive to water than others.

Posted by: euro911 Dec 16 2016, 08:42 PM

One way to keep the intrusion of water to a minimum would be to ditch the targa top and weld a steel roof on. You would still need to get creative with the rubber seals around the door windows though.

Maybe Mark can design some wind/rain deflectors for 914s ... like vent shade makes

Posted by: rgalla9146 Dec 16 2016, 08:56 PM

A fixed roof is the answer..... with rain gutters.
Vent shades ? not for me, same category as door edge guards and those fugly
ding guards.

Posted by: pbanders Dec 16 2016, 10:03 PM

With a big enough tube of silicone caulking, I can make any 914 waterproof. Some may require 2 tubes.

Posted by: whitetwinturbo Dec 16 2016, 10:19 PM

............er, move to So Kalefornacation since it never rains here....except today

Posted by: euro911 Dec 16 2016, 10:24 PM

Yep ... and the high winds have a nasty habit of forcing the rain water into the car ... ask me how I know

Posted by: Perry Kiehl Dec 16 2016, 10:35 PM

Hydro-lock is a real possibility in a 914-6

Posted by: euro911 Dec 16 2016, 11:02 PM

I wonder why nobody ever came out with an after-market rear-facing rear deck lid scoop for 914s like they made for 911s and 912s.

They were pretty rare, mostly saw them on 912s ... I believe I still have one packed away somewhere.

Posted by: wayner Dec 17 2016, 10:48 AM

As this thing gets rebuilt over the winter I'm willing to be the Guinean pig for a few hairbrained watertight ideas if anyone has them.

(I'm going after functionality not originality set let the ideas fly and I'll report back here. - drip rails may be on the list)

Posted by: GeorgeRud Dec 17 2016, 01:20 PM

Though anything is possible, I don't think the 914-6 is particularly subject to hydro lock as the factory air cleaner does a good job of diverting water to the outer parts of the sealed engine and the snorkel points slightly down to drain any water (as well as a drain in the bottom of the main filter housing). Folks with earlier K&N filter housings (before the Watershed design came out) may have had issues, but these are really pretty well sealed in the engine compartment.

Passengers, not as much!

Posted by: euro911 Dec 17 2016, 05:43 PM

IIRC, the roof section from a 924/944 can be used to fab a permanent steel hardtop - if you're game

Posted by: North Coast Jim Dec 17 2016, 08:50 PM

My first 914 was a '74 1.8 liter, white with black interior. We were the 2nd owner after the first sold it after 10 months. Had it for 6 years. Loved that car. It NEVER got wet inside. Oh ............ now I remember it was always garaged. My bad.

Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 17 2016, 09:44 PM

These get driven in the rain?

Posted by: RickS Dec 18 2016, 12:17 AM

Have a good friend who has owned his own Porsche shop for 25 years. He has an original 6 he drove off the lot and his own 914 authentic GT undergoing a full restoration. He just sold another real 6 that took four years for a complete nut and bolt restoration using genuine Porsche parts which he had squirreled away over the years. All the seals were new and with the top up, it made as much wind noise inside as my '71. Not air tight and this guy is a anal fanatic when it comes to perfect fit and finish. Epilogue: He sold the restored 6 to an investment group for 6 figures and change, and the 6 is now sadly locked away in a warehouse awaiting another rise in values. He continues to work on his GT as time allows.

Posted by: wayner Dec 18 2016, 09:18 AM

So, if it had a steel roof ( no targa) would there still be leaks? Is the design of the window seals that bad and if so which area leaks?

(Or is it just the roof?)

BTW, just so there is no confusion, unlike the historic orange car earlier in this thread, mine was just a run of the mill 1975 2.0, so don't worry, I'm not molesting anything special

Posted by: porschetub Dec 18 2016, 10:41 AM

Interesting question,one I never asked because I never read any reference to it being a real problem.
However having owned a sunroof 944 and several earlier BMW's with sunroof's I'am not expecting to be surprised,my car leaked several times under a car cover during heavy winter storms,I traced it to the top horizontal window seals and bad alignment of the window glass.
My doors had been dissembled when the car was restored,I found both window frames out of alignment to the seals,I have since adjusted them and installed 914rubber top seals which IMO are a better design and seal for the glass.
Funny how things haven't really progressed as much in automotive design as we would like ,I recently had to remove all the sunvisor trim in my girlfriends 2007 VW Eos and clear blocked sunroof drains which really aren't a great design.

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 18 2016, 11:24 AM

current terminology," I'm building an Outlaw "

Posted by: wayner Dec 18 2016, 12:04 PM

Who do I look like, Rod Emery or something ?

Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 18 2016, 03:29 PM

The targa top is the main reason the leak issues exist. You have an extra section that is removable, that will flex with the car. You can't make the 100% waterproof. I have owned several 944s, even make the sunroof seal for the late 944s. They like the 928 and any other steel roof cars are about 100%.
You can get them to the point that they can be left outside and not have to worry about having a swimming pool when you come back. Honestly, the prospect of putting a steel roof on to "solve" the "problem" I don't get. The problem is not that bad. If you like a steel roof, yes it can be made more secure, but it's not a 914 at some point. I live in Oregon and most of my 914's are kept outside. If I leave it for awhile I do use a cover.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: euro911 Dec 18 2016, 04:49 PM

Of course, taking the removable targa top out of the picture does change the character of the original 914 design.

I've resorted to using Perry's 'umbrella covers' for so long, to the point where I now need to replace the bungee cord material on one of them. It's not that it rains a lot here in So Cal, but being near the ocean, living with the marine layer (salty air and fog), I just keep the cover on most of the time.

I seldom drive mine in the rain, however, I can recount a few times when I was on the road and got slammed by some nasty summertime rainstorms ... and the car leaked like a sieve - mainly above the side windows, as my 'summer' top does not sport nice new rubber seals.

My black car (the 'BB') was pretty bastardized when I first acquired it. I've remedied most of the issues and it's fairly nice now (mechanically). However, since it's not stock and wouldn't be worth my while to convert a 75 back to stock, I wouldn't have any bad feelings about converting it to a hardtop with rain gutters

Posted by: Perry Kiehl Dec 18 2016, 05:09 PM

Stock 914-6's have been known to hydrolock. All it takes is the intake not getting put on properly, or the rubber seal losing elasticity. This is one reason why Richard Parr makes the Watershield rain hats for 3bbl Webers.

There was a story in an old Pano about a guy parking at an airport lot for a week and then coming back and the car wouldn't crank, so he got a push down a hill and popped the clutch, which in turn popped his engine! One cylinder got filled with rain water, and when he tried to crank it, it spun over enough to close the intake valve. Water doesn't compress very well. The moral of the story is if you suspect you might have gotten water down the intake first try taking out the spark plugs (water isn't chopsticks) Then buy my Umbrella Cover

If you have a 6 or have removed your rain tray, you are going to get water in the engine compartment. How much or how consequential is anyone's guess.

Posted by: wayner Dec 18 2016, 08:20 PM

For anyone that lives in California I don't think you get why I'm trying to solve this

We get about 8 weeks of summer and it's likely to rain four of those

Posted by: euro911 Dec 18 2016, 08:43 PM

I guess hydrolock could happen with any motor sporting carburetors, but every one I've seen it happen on had the rain tray removed. I retain the OEM rain trays, and have the optional rain trays in 912s too

Posted by: mbseto Dec 19 2016, 09:00 AM

My Toyota Supra targa never leaked a drop. Not sure what their secret was, it came only 15 years after my '71 914. Maybe just better fit. That car was flexy like a noodle without the top, but pretty rock solid with the top on.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 19 2016, 09:11 AM

911 targa's leak worse ... and are way more expensive to try to fix.

Posted by: forrestkhaag Dec 19 2016, 12:21 PM

A friend of mine that shared our 914 obsession spun out on Lakeshore Drive in Baton Rouge in the late 70" and came to rest side-up in the University Lake. It proved not to be waterproof as it took about 8 minutes to sink to the muddy bottom of the lake (in four feet of water......) When dredged out, the value remaining was minimal but it has several crawfish in the interior...........

Posted by: wayner Dec 20 2016, 08:41 AM

It seems to me that this location where the roof, windshield and window comes together is the main area of in concern, Is that an accurate assessment?


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: bradtho Dec 20 2016, 10:33 AM

That's certainly where mine leaks. Have you played with the wing window adjustment to see which position works best? I've thought about it, but never gotten around to it, and not sure which way to go for best results.

Posted by: ndfrigi Dec 20 2016, 10:50 AM

It should fit like this.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 20 2016, 11:47 AM

I want to be able to go through a drive thru car wash with NO targa top! Sorta like the Ariel Atom.

Posted by: wayner Dec 20 2016, 12:09 PM

My car is literally cut in half right now so it doesn't look like that but once I start putting it back together including new seals, can I expect it to leak a bit and if so is that the offending area, or is your car dry??

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Dec 20 2016, 03:46 PM

Thats the area where mine leaks too.
Its a total bitch to get it adjusted properly.

Zach

Posted by: Rand Dec 20 2016, 04:12 PM

Looks like the seal isn't even there in that pic? Guaranteed to leak! lol, I'm guessing you are just showing the location, not how it should fit.

Posted by: wayner Dec 20 2016, 04:51 PM

The floor isn't there either right now so I suppose that it wouldn't matter if it leaked

Fixing it as fast as I can

Seriously though, unlike the 911 crowd that critiqued my last project, I figured this group would be all over engineering improvements

Posted by: Catorse Dec 21 2016, 09:58 AM

My 914 is absolutely leak free.







It is however, hard to drive around with the tarp on :-)

Posted by: porschetub Dec 21 2016, 01:18 PM

That area at the joint of the roof and the top window seal was the first place I had a leak,seems ok now I adjusted my striker plates and window class frames,it bought the glass inside the rubber further.
I'am not fooling myself it won't leak but I certainly have less road dust coming in,I have a set of Bruces rebuilt rear latches but need to order a rear roof seal of 914rubber before fitting these.
I have found Sika car body sealant to be great for small repairs in the rubber.

Posted by: wayner Dec 21 2016, 01:40 PM

So if I am going to do some engineering work on this as my car goes back together ( using new 914 rubber seals etc)...

Once again is that joint at the window THE source of leaks or does the rest of the roof and window area also leak? ( assuming new and properly installed seals everywhere)

If someone with experience can be specific I'd appreaciate it.

I want to chase a practical solution in the shop rather than have to gain the leaky experience myself and delay my engineering work by a year

I'm not willing to accept the answer that this is just how these cars have to be.
Thanks

(And I'm happy to share my findings with any product companies like 914 rubber if they are interested)

Posted by: Olympic 1.7 Dec 21 2016, 02:13 PM

Its a Sports car not a Sedan. Take a towel with you.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 21 2016, 02:37 PM

Our cars were the intro model for Porsche, so much of the design, materials, fit and finish are basic compared to the higher end 911. All things on a car are also a trade off. The targa top on our cars are simple, light and easy to remove and install. While working towards a leak free cockpit is an admirable goal, it doesn't solve the rust issue of our little cars, probably the main reason most of us don't take our cars out in the wet.

Posted by: wayner Dec 21 2016, 06:06 PM

First off, 911s leak also (even the coupes although less so) but can be made dry (although there are people in that community who thought the Porsche workers were gods and one should not tamper with their products )


Second let me repeat my request

I'll weld up a steel roof if I have to but my preference is to keep the 914 a targa. It's going to take me some time to understand the problem I am solving so I can't wait. I'm already thinking

So, will anyone help me figure out the areas that I should focus my attention on my poor little 914?

(Oh, and as for me apparently I anger the gods according to some )

Posted by: mepstein Dec 21 2016, 07:54 PM

My shop pumps out high end 911's (rs-werks.com) so I have no problem with 911's and 914's playing together. Great looking car!

Posted by: bradtho Dec 21 2016, 08:00 PM

I'm with you Wayne! I drive my car daily in seattle which means I have a fair amount of experience with the car in the rain. When I first got it, I got a full set of seals for the top from Mark and after failing to get much water-tight-ness on my own, I had a bodyshop with 914 experience dial it in. It would occasionally drip a small amount, but I would say it was "nearly leakproof" at that point.

Since then, I've had the car painted and it hasn't been as tight since then. I think about trying to fix it, but just let it drip some at this point.

I have found the main culprit for large amounts of water to be the header hoop area between the 2 A pillars. If any water gets into that seal, it gets pushed to the sides and drips in the spot you have identified, but the issue is really water inside the channel.

In addition to that, the windshield itself needs to be watertight, if water gets under the glass it also pushes up into that channel and drips at the corners. This is easier to see though because you can see the moisture under the glass.

I don't think there's anything you'll be able to do about the water that sits in the targa channel and drips in when you open the door and get in the car though. So regardless of success with the doors closed, you may need to keep a towel handy!

good luck and keep us posted. I'd love some pointers to try.

Posted by: wayner Dec 21 2016, 08:06 PM

The last two posts were great ! ( the drips and the car comments )

I have two strategies in mind:
1) leak prevention
2) water management in areas were leaks may be unpreventable

Now that I've heard that it may be across the entire seal and not just the corners, I've got an idea to experiment with

Thanks!

( as for the black car, among other things people chastised me for buying it in such crappyy shape I bought it in, and then when prices headed for the sky mid build, for not making it absolutely original and narrow. As you can see I'm not afraid to change a few things)

Posted by: euro911 Dec 21 2016, 08:12 PM

There's a lot of us that have more than one model of Porsche, although a few will call a 911 a 'donor' for the motor

I was into 911s and 912s before the 914s came along.

Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 22 2016, 10:23 AM

The biggest problem I see with the seals is that most people try to pull the seals on the roof at the top of the window. Yes they can be pulled through the track, and you think that you have relieved all the tension, but in a month or more, the vibration / expansion and contraction will eventually allow the runner to return to the unstretched shape. Rubber has memory, and will do this, so even a small amount of stress will eventually cause this seal to mysteriously shrink.
The only way to avoid this is to install the outside edge 1st and them press in the inner edge. I making the seal about 1/4" longer than you think you will need. Install the roof and try to close the front latch. You will notice the seal will "beer can"or crumple in. Take a carpet knife and warm soapy water and shave off up to 1/8" and re try. Continue the process until you can see that seal is actually making contact and is under pressure, but not so much that it deforms the seal. This will allow for the best possible fit.

Posted by: wayner Dec 22 2016, 12:18 PM

Next time I am near the car I'm going to look at ways to rout any water that gets past the seal, and get it back out of the car ( modern sunroofs have trays with drains under their seals. I wonder if I can do something like that?)

Im also gong to look at modern targas for ideas

Just thinking out loud. More ideas to come soon

Posted by: JustinMeier Dec 22 2016, 12:22 PM

I was just thinking about this.. I was very surprised when I took a corner in the rain and my leg got wet.. I figured dad removed something but apparently that's not the case

Posted by: Brett W Dec 22 2016, 09:12 PM

That was always my complaint with my 914 when I drove it everyday. I hated getting dripped on. The only place my car would leak inside the car was the window top junction. Unlike modern cars the window seals never really sealed against the glass. Modern cars are so much better about window fit. I love the way the Corvettes and BMW E36s raise the window after the car door is closed. That really helps push the window into the window track. Those cars are water tight and quite at speed.