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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ TYPE4PARTS PROGRAMABLE FUEL INJECTION
Posted by: Type 4 Apr 28 2005, 07:40 PM
Here is a preveiw of my fuel injection unit for the 914.
The Type4parts engine management system handles full 3D mapping of both ignition and injection.
Its easy programmability and flexibility in adapting to existing engine installations and sensors make it a particularly good choice for people wishing to convert thier Bosch D Jet to mapped ignition and injection.
The system will take inputs from the stock distributor including those converted to run with an optical trigger.
The software provides 32 speed sites(up to 15,500RPM) and 16 load sites with tailored load site grouping, allowing super sensitive mapping around part throttle to improve drivability.
The injection software provides the same number of load sites and speed sites, and also allows for cranking enrichment, acceleration fuelling adjustment, cold start correction, cylinder head and air temperature correction to both fuelling and ignition settings.
Map trimming the timing and fuelling settings while the engine is running, or on a download basis.
Type4parts EMS unit incorporates a shift light, user-tailorable soft and hard cut rev-limiters, tach drive and tach tell-tale.
Not show in photo is modifided plemun for 65mm Throttle body.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 28 2005, 07:49 PM
Come on.. put this in the vendors area (or I'll do it for you)
Feel free to tell us about it in a thread here... but dont sell shit here in the main form.
B
Posted by: drgchapman Apr 28 2005, 07:51 PM
So...I'm listening. 
Been dealing with a stumbling d-jeted 2.0. Seems thst many d-jet owners deal with stumbling d-jets. How much and will it cure the stumbles? What about that large bore throttle body? 
Posted by: Type 4 Apr 28 2005, 07:55 PM
The 65mm TB is installed on your stock plenum.
By using the stock runners with there Fuel injector bosses you dont need to buy two TB and the linkage.
The stock 2.0 Plenum and runners will flow more than enough air for even a 2.8 engine.
You can use your Stock TB as it is compatiable with the system.
It is very tunable.
Posted by: Mueller Apr 28 2005, 08:09 PM
price?
does it come with a base map?
can "anyone" install and tune it?
anyone we know running it?
support?
warrenty?
is it based on an existing ECU? (common practice for some vendors to rebadge items)
Posted by: Type 4 Apr 28 2005, 08:44 PM
There are 50 base programs to get you started.
Yes anyone can install it and tune using a laptop.
Any questions just feel free to send email or call.
Posted by: sean_v8_914 Apr 28 2005, 09:48 PM
tell us more about the metering parameters. what sensors does it use? deos it modulate timing also?
Posted by: redshift Apr 28 2005, 11:17 PM
I want to know how much the 'buy it now-drive it yesterday' plan is, for a new motor (2270?) with injection installed, and tuned.
Oh, I'm going to need a new clutch too... so add that, and three tuneup kits.. oh, a pair of cowl/fender seals... and.. umm.. have you got a pile of 5 lug 6x16 Fuchs sitting around?
If someone wants to work a bumper deal, I am deleting my chrome, for glass, if you have a pair, add those too.
All this has made me thirsty.. please toss the local favorite into the package.. 
better overnight it.
M
Posted by: jr91472 Apr 28 2005, 11:24 PM
can you mount the ECU in the engine bay? price?
Posted by: 914rrr Apr 29 2005, 02:39 AM
Any provisions for a turbo install?
Posted by: Type 4 Apr 29 2005, 09:35 AM
The system uses Throttle position switch, TDC sensor, Oil temp, MAP Sensor and Cylinders head temp .
To comtrol the mixture and timimg.
It is has 8 ft leads so that the EMS Box can be place where you like.
Yes it is set up for turbo enrichment and timing control via boost sensor.
It is state of the art.
Posted by: gregrobbins Apr 29 2005, 09:53 AM
Three prople have asked about the price. So I am #4.
Sounds good, but how much?
Posted by: tat2dphreak Apr 29 2005, 10:02 AM
| QUOTE (gregrobbins @ Apr 29 2005, 10:53 AM) |
| Three prople have asked about the price. So I am #4. Sounds good, but how much? |
I'll be #5...
must you already have a DJet setup?
Posted by: lapuwali Apr 29 2005, 10:12 AM
What's the range on the MAP sensor? Is the MAP sensor built in, or external?
What's the temperature range on the ECU?
The big connector on the end looks like an AMPseal connector. Is the rest of the case waterproof?
What does the tuning software run on?
Does it require the use of a distributor for ignition? Can it fire the coil directly, or does it require an external ignitor? Can dwell be tuned? How does it trigger? Crankwheel? Points? VR or Hall sensor in the distributor? All of the above?
Posted by: tat2dphreak Apr 29 2005, 10:25 AM
it's probably like Mueller's hubs, they don't really exist 
Posted by: bd1308 Apr 29 2005, 10:29 AM
price...i'm #6 and #7 if the price is right 
Posted by: TROJANMAN Apr 29 2005, 10:42 AM
#8
now i'm skeptical
Posted by: Type 4 Apr 29 2005, 11:52 AM
must you already have a DJet setup?
No. It can be used with any TB with injectors ie CB Performane or Redline.
Is the MAP sensor built in, or external?
The MAP sensor is external.
What's the temperature range on the ECU?
It can be mounted in the engine compartment but the leads allow you to mount it inside the car.
The big connector on the end looks like an AMPseal connector. Is the rest of the case waterproof?
The box is water restitant.
What does the tuning software run on?
It is windows based 3.1 and later.
Does it require the use of a distributor for ignition? Can it fire the coil directly, or does it require an external ignitor? Can dwell be tuned? How does it trigger? Crankwheel? Points? VR or Hall sensor in the distributor? All of the above?
A Converison for the points is prvided. It will work on all of the above. It will not work using the stock VW flywheel sensor as Buses and Vanagons.
Please send me an email for pricing.
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Apr 29 2005, 12:03 PM
How about this...what is the cost for everything you have shown in the picture? You can use the words "about" or "roughly" along with "call for an EXACT quote". Just having a ball-park figure is nice 
Posted by: Type 4 Apr 29 2005, 12:05 PM
For Pricing please send an email.
Posted by: Type 4 Apr 29 2005, 01:28 PM
I forgot to mention built in Data logger.
Posted by: Brando Apr 29 2005, 01:34 PM
Steve,
I like the sound of your system. I e-mailed you my other questions, but here's some big ones...
Have you dyno-tested a car with this setup compared to stock injection? Compared to carburetors? Any pictures of it in use (we like eye candy)? Does it come with detailed instructions (I'm not an electrical engineer 
)?
Sounds super-cool.
Posted by: Travis Neff Apr 29 2005, 02:19 PM
We need a "this thread is worthless without prices" smiley.. Cough up the prices, sent a message - thanks!
Posted by: redshift Apr 29 2005, 02:28 PM
Email? RED FLAG!
Are you in Nigeria, by any chance?
M
Posted by: Rand Apr 29 2005, 02:31 PM
The price must be too embarrasing to post in public? You know it's just a matter of time before everyone here finds out anyway.
Posted by: redshift Apr 29 2005, 02:41 PM
Yes, we can force it out of him here, or someone can send an email, and sneak it in somewhere.
M
Posted by: tat2dphreak Apr 29 2005, 02:47 PM
I emailed for price...
I'm sure it's more than I can afford, but I want to know!
Posted by: synthesisdv Apr 29 2005, 02:48 PM
I remember a figure like $1000 from a post weeks ago. Haven't been following too close because I am married to my webers unless SCCA changes the rulebook.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=26259&hl=injection
Posted by: porschenut May 3 2005, 07:51 AM
Anyone got a price from this guy yet?
Lots of us called and sent emails last week, not a good sign!
Posted by: tat2dphreak May 3 2005, 07:52 AM
| QUOTE (porschenut @ May 3 2005, 08:51 AM) |
| Anyone got a price from this guy yet? Lots of us called and sent emails last week, not a good sign! |
yea, what's up with that? I sent an email, nothing! is Steve starting the AA of the west?
Posted by: URY914 May 3 2005, 08:11 AM
See what I told ya...
Posted by: TROJANMAN May 3 2005, 09:05 AM
| QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ May 3 2005, 05:52 AM) | ||
yea, what's up with that? I sent an email, nothing! is Steve starting the AA of the west? |
you beat me too it......
Posted by: Type 4 May 3 2005, 09:24 AM
Eveyrone who has sent me a email will be getting an email shortly with the prices for the different packages.
Posted by: dmenche914 May 3 2005, 09:33 AM
If anyone gets the prices , please post them, the suspence is just toooooo much for me. If it is near $1000, then that may not be too bad, considering the prices of Weber 48's these days, and the fact that once tuned, it should stay in tune forever, right????
Posted by: tat2dphreak May 3 2005, 09:37 AM
| QUOTE (dmenche914 @ May 3 2005, 10:33 AM) |
| If anyone gets the prices , please post them, the suspence is just toooooo much for me. If it is near $1000, then that may not be too bad, considering the prices of Weber 48's these days, and the fact that once tuned, it should stay in tune forever, right???? |
in theory...
another determining factor for me, is that I would need some sort of FI to begin with, it seems... it's not a conversion from carbs... so I would need to find another FI, even a stock one, which would had a few hundred to the cost... whereas megasquirt can convert carbs...
I wonder if one of the shitty "single-carb" setups can beconverted to FI using this though?
I think I have one of those on the shelf
Posted by: lapuwali May 3 2005, 11:04 AM
| QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ May 3 2005, 07:37 AM) | ||
in theory... another determining factor for me, is that I would need some sort of FI to begin with, it seems... it's not a conversion from carbs... so I would need to find another FI, even a stock one, which would had a few hundred to the cost... whereas megasquirt can convert carbs... I wonder if one of the shitty "single-carb" setups can beconverted to FI using this though? I think I have one of those on the shelf |
Megasquirt can only "convert carbs" if you have all of the parts. By far the easiest way to put MS or any other aftermarket ECU in a 914 is to start with a D-Jet or L-Jet setup. These aren't all that expensive used, certainly not "a few hundred", considering you can buy a complete running 1.7 for under $500. You don't need the "brain" or the MPS, which are the expensive hard-to-source parts. All you need is are the runners, plenum, throttle body, injectors, fuel pump, and the pressure regulator. You'd still need to do all of the wiring and plumbing yourself. The big advantage here is the plenum and TB will already have a nipple for the MAP sensor (same as MPS), and will have temp sensors for intake air and head temp you can use with MS and the newer Perfect Power ECUs. The TPS won't work, but you don't really need one with MS.
If you're trying to convert a dual Weber'd car, you'll need to modify the manifolds to accept injectors, and you'll need to buy the injectors ($150-200 a set new), a fuel pump, a pressure regulator, and plumbing. The Webers can act as throttle bodies. However, this is actually an expensive way to do this, as you can sell the complete Weber setup for $400-500, and a buy used D-Jet setup for $50-150. It's possible to have a complete MS system working for the same money you'd get for selling the Webers.
The single progressive Weber setup would work, as long as you mount the injectors at the ports.
Posted by: tnorthern May 3 2005, 11:31 AM
I am fairly new here but I will toss my .02 into the fray... I emailed Steve back on 4-23 about an engine, he emailed me back with info about a "big four" which was great.
Now when I emailed him back about prices and dyno numbers (you know actual hard data like you would get anywhere else in the real world from an engine builder but seems to be kinda scarce in this community) because I was very interested I never heard back from him.
Again just my .02 but I wouldn't hold my breath for a reply...
Posted by: Type 4 May 3 2005, 12:57 PM
Just have a little patience fellows you will be getting the prices via email.
Posted by: redshift May 3 2005, 01:20 PM
Oh no! Stromberg isn't a Nigerian name, is it?
M
Posted by: airsix May 3 2005, 01:33 PM
No matter how low the price is people will complain. You could give them away free and people would gripe about the shipping cost and that it took more than 27 minutes to get a tracking number. 
-Ben M.
Posted by: Rand May 3 2005, 01:36 PM
| QUOTE |
| Just have a little patience fellows |
Reading this thread is making me nuts. Are the prices still under development or what? Why can't they just be posted? Keeping them top secret isn't going to help the opinions about them. They will be known by all anyway, and attempted secrecy will only add to the gripes.
Posted by: 736conver May 3 2005, 01:38 PM
We need a new smilie.
The thread is worthless without prices!!!!!
Posted by: TROJANMAN May 3 2005, 01:40 PM
| QUOTE (airsix @ May 3 2005, 11:33 AM) |
| No matter how low the price is people will complain. You could give them away free and people would gripe about the shipping cost and that it took more than 27 minutes to get a tracking number. -Ben M. |
there's nothing to complain about yet. the price is currently on double secret probation.
Posted by: Rand May 3 2005, 01:41 PM
I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to shoot ya.
Posted by: jwalters May 3 2005, 04:41 PM
I think if you read the post that Brad made--you would see he explicity said no selling on this board---so that means no prices----it was on Page 1--about the #2 or #3 post--
Admins wield the sword around here-- 
Posted by: Mueller May 3 2005, 04:55 PM
| QUOTE (jwalters @ May 3 2005, 03:41 PM) |
| I think if you read the post that Brad made--you would see he explicity said no selling on this board---so that means no prices----it was on Page 1--about the #2 or #3 post-- Admins wield the sword around here-- |
We have a resource section on the board for "selling", Steves 1st post looked like a straight up advertisment, now if he showed it installed on a 914 or something like that, then it would be different I think....
nothing wrong with posting the price.......
Posted by: jwalters May 3 2005, 05:03 PM
Now that is too cool! Another vendor saying " Post the Price!"
Score:
Admins: 1
Vendors: 2
hehe-- 
Posted by: redshift May 3 2005, 05:11 PM
If it's not expensive enough, nobody's going to want it.
M
Posted by: Mueller May 3 2005, 05:29 PM
| QUOTE (redshift @ May 3 2005, 04:11 PM) |
| If it's not expensive enough, nobody's going to want it. M |
there is some truth to that...if the price is so dirt cheap compared to what is out there, it makes you wonder what the reason is....
my Link ECU so far seems to be about the lowest cost commercial* ECU if seen this year, and it's only a few hundred bucks less than everything else......
*megasquirt does not count, even a professional built/tested unit
Posted by: SLITS May 3 2005, 05:34 PM
It's 10 Bazillion Dollars or might as well be as cheap as the Teener Owners are
Posted by: 914RSR May 3 2005, 05:39 PM
here you go, right out of Steves Email ...
===============================================
Thanks for your interest in the Fuel Injection System.
This is a state of the art FI system.
It allows you to contrrol the fuel and timing with great precision.
It is very simple to program via Laptop
The system is comparable to the Motec system in Quality and features.
This system will give you from 20 to 30% increase in power over your existing fuel system FI or Carb.
This is due to the fuel being burned at the optimal point in the combustion process.
Stock FI or carbs are very crude in offering the optimal combustion of fuel to the engine and have no provision adjust the timing.
I am offering it in two packages to allow you to select the best setup for you needs.
The Basic package contains:
The EMS with mount tabs
Harness with 8 foot leads
Cable to interface laptop with EMS
Optical trigger
MAP Sensor 3 bar in case later on you want to turbo your engine.
Temp sensor.
CD with 50 Base maps to get you up and running.
Operating Manual .
The base package is for use with your stock Runners with Injectors and TB.
For engines 1679cc to 2056cc
This package is $1600
If you have a Larger Engine the following package will give you more power.
This package has the above items plus:
65mm TB on a modifided 2.0 Plenum with TPS sold as an exchange part
4- 24lbs fuel injectors.
Harness for 24 lbs injectors.
Fuel line runners for 24 lbs injectors.
Air Cleaner for 65mm TB.
This is $1950.
The stock 2.0 plenum and runners will work for displacments up to 2.8 liters.
Twin TB are not necessary for performance.
I have runners and plenums if you dont have any.
For more info on how this system works and the features use this link.
Take a look and you can see the benefits of this system.
Download the program to see how easy it is to program the system for your engine.
Future upgrades to the system are downloadable from the internet.
There is a Datalogger built in.
Thanks Steve
http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_m3dk.html
www.type4parts.com
949-650-7366 9am-5pm PST 7 Days a week
=============================================
Please read:
Note due to a high volume of email.
If you dont hear from me in a day or two write me again.
I get alot of email so I may not of gotten a chance to respond to yours yet.
Thank you Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surf before you surf - http://www.surf.co.nz
===============================================
Posted by: lapuwali May 3 2005, 05:43 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 3 2005, 03:29 PM) | ||
there is some truth to that...if the price is so dirt cheap compared to what is out there, it makes you wonder what the reason is.... my Link ECU so far seems to be about the lowest cost commercial* ECU if seen this year, and it's only a few hundred bucks less than everything else...... *megasquirt does not count, even a professional built/tested unit |
Ben's favorite Perfect Power seems to be a bit cheaper than the Link. Their US distributor sells the PRT2 for $650. What surprised me when I looked is they claim it will do full sequential injection, and it also does wasted spark on a four-cylinder. I think that $650 also includes a harness, but not sensors.
Posted by: Mueller May 3 2005, 05:50 PM
I forgot about the Perfect Power units...is that price current or from a few years ago??
Posted by: lapuwali May 3 2005, 05:54 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 3 2005, 03:50 PM) |
| I forgot about the Perfect Power units...is that price current or from a few years ago?? |
http://www.idaautomotive.com/prices.asp
$675, not $650. My mistake.
$1600 is pretty expensive. 20-30% power increase is bullshit. Motec quality is unlikely (Motec uses MIL-SPEC everything).
Posted by: Mueller May 3 2005, 06:04 PM
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 3 2005, 04:54 PM) | ||
http://www.idaautomotive.com/prices.asp $675, not $650. My mistake. $1600 is pretty expensive. 20-30% power increase is bullshit. Motec quality is unlikely (Motec uses MIL-SPEC everything). |
interesting...one of the perfect power dealers is Mike from Lo Customs (one of the early Megasquirt guys)
to be honest with you, I'm disappointed in Steves pricing...I was really hoping it would be in the sub $1000 range for a true bolt on solution......not really for me, but for others that only want to deal with a true or near plug and play solution....
Posted by: tnorthern May 3 2005, 06:19 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again. Let's see dyno numbers on this stuff... when I asked for specifics for a motor he was trying to sell me on he never contacted be back. I understand these aren't small block Chevy's but why can Edlebrock tell you what HP to expect from their Performer Package but % of increase is an acceptable answer here. I want to see a dyno with carbs, stock FI, and then his FI put a little effort out there and you will get a huge response. I believe in business we call that ROI. Invest in taking one of each package you sell to a dyno and give us solid data.
Posted by: TROJANMAN May 3 2005, 07:12 PM
| QUOTE (914RSR @ May 3 2005, 03:39 PM) |
| here you go, right out of Steves Email ... |
now was that so hard? he could have posted that last week. (in the vendor's section
)close to 1500 hits, that's pretty good advertising. that's better than the link i have below my signature.
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut May 3 2005, 08:48 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 3 2005, 04:04 PM) |
| ...to be honest with you, I'm disappointed in Steves pricing...I was really hoping it would be in the sub $1000 range for a true bolt on solution......not really for me, but for others that only want to deal with a true or near plug and play solution.... |
So this system goes with the variety of other systems out there I've been looking at
Posted by: Racer Chris May 3 2005, 10:12 PM
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 3 2005, 07:54 PM) |
| 20-30% power increase is bullshit. |
I agree 100%
The stock intake already works pretty good for a stock size engine.
Without adding a real good exhaust the engine efficiency won't change a whole lot.
The stock cam is a major limiting factor.
The heavy stock valves and weak springs limit rpm.
IMNSHO my Tangerine Super header is still the best bolt on power booster available for a stock 2 liter, 9% torque increase - dyno proven. You can't get that anywhere else without splitting the case.
Posted by: LouisCypher May 4 2005, 12:54 AM
| QUOTE (914RSR @ May 3 2005, 03:39 PM) |
| 65mm TB on a modifided 2.0 Plenum with TPS sold as an exchange part 4- 24lbs fuel injectors. Harness for 24 lbs injectors. Fuel line runners for 24 lbs injectors. Air Cleaner for 65mm TB. This is $1950. The stock 2.0 plenum and runners will work for displacments up to 2.8 liters. Twin TB are not necessary for performance. |
But is it true that a EFI system with a central TB can be used for engines that large? Isn't there a problem with idle when using high duration and/or lift cam?
Louis
Posted by: Mark Henry May 4 2005, 06:59 AM
FI does not add HP, 19 to 28hp (20-30%) gain on a stock engine is total 
Let's see the dyno results.
A 2.0 plenum is too small for a large cc engine.
A three bar MAP on a N/A engine will lose half the resolution.
The price is far from earth shattering.
Posted by: Racer Chris May 4 2005, 07:10 AM
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ May 4 2005, 08:59 AM) |
| A 2.0 plenum is too small for a large cc engine. |
Steve didn't say it was the right size, just that it will work.
That only means the engine will run.
An optimized combination is going to be more expensive than simply throwing a few nifty parts together, but it will yield far more satisfying results and the cost will soon be forgotten. Money is hardly ever well spent if there isn't a well defined goal and a clear plan to achieve that goal.
Posted by: Mark Henry May 4 2005, 07:44 AM
| QUOTE (Racer Chris @ May 4 2005, 09:10 AM) | ||
Steve didn't say it was the right size, just that it will work. That only means the engine will run. |
I stand corrected....Yes, it will run.
Posted by: lapuwali May 4 2005, 09:31 AM
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ May 4 2005, 04:59 AM) |
| A three bar MAP on a N/A engine will lose half the resolution. |
In practice, this ends up not really being a problem.
The MS guys originally offered two MAP sensors, one up to 115kPa, one up to 250kPa. It was quickly discovered that the 250kPa unit was just fine on unboosted engines, so they dropped the 115 unit and just used the 250 for everyone. The A/D convertor is going to convert that into an 8-bit value, so with a 0-250kPa range, each "step" is a tad less than 1kPa, which is plenty of resolution. A 300kPa sensor loses some, but even 1.2kPa per step is pretty fine.
Even non-interpolating ECUs with 32x32 maps will end up with 3kPa per step 0-100kPa, and that seems to be more than sufficient for smooth operation.
Posted by: DNHunt May 4 2005, 10:56 AM
A 300 KPa Map sensor could be a big deal depending on the equation used to calculate pulse width of the injectors. Speed density uses MAP (engine load) and RPM to select a bin on the fueling map to base the calculations on so if the MAP is misread that can introduce a problem. On top of that if the the pulsewidth is interpolated in the area between bins it is multiplied by the MAP again so the mistake can get significantly larger. Add that to the stock injectors which are grossly overrated and you cold have huge variations in the air/fuel ratio and real drivability problems. Having a dependable and steady MAP value is really important.
I've spent a bunch of time trying to meter the MAP signal on my 2.0l stock plenum car. Between 3000 and 4000 there is significant flucuation in the MAP signal on a 250 KPa sensor. I suspect that this is from turbulence in the plenum probably from the tunining of the plenum runner system. This really affects the way the car feels especially at cruise.
My solution has been to try more restriction in the vacuum hose to the sensor to slow down how quickly the sensor will respond to changes in the vacuum. This however means I need to add acceleration enrichment so the engine doesn't lean out.
Claims of increased HP on a stock engine are bunk. D-jet was really pretty well tuned so if it is in good shape you'll be hard pressed to beat it. I couldn't with an hour and a half of dyno time.
Plug and play for a completely stock engine that's in good shape will work. If the engine has any mods you are going to need to tune or you will leave power on the table. So you should budget for tuning. you might luck out and have one of the 50 preloaded programs work but, it's a gamble.
I know this sounds like a condemnation of Steve's system but it's really not. All systems are a compromise and the more the design targets universal application the more compromise has to be built in. I think it's great there is another player in this arena. Undoubtedly, it can be made to work, but if I were considering it I would expect that it would take some tinkering and tuning.
Here is an old datalog with a nasty MAP sensor imput. Notice the wild A/F ratio. This was not fun to drive.
Dave
Attached image(s)
Posted by: TROJANMAN May 4 2005, 12:03 PM
i used to think 914's were cool 
but now i'm learning there are a bunch of geeks driving around in them 
Posted by: lapuwali May 4 2005, 12:37 PM
All due respect Dave, but a higher resolution MAP signal wouldn't help your fluctuation. From the scale, it's bouncing from 20kPa to 80kPa.
When you're digitizing an analog signal, increasing the resolution only helps you in accurately detecting changes at the small end of the scale. With an 8-bit value, the 300kPa sensor resolves to 1.2kPa per step, and a 115kPa sensor resolves to 0.45kPa per step. At 20kPa, the maximum error for the 300kPa sensor is 6%, at 80kPa it's only 1.5%. The 115kPa sensor shows a 2.2% error at 20kPa, and a 0.5% error at 80kPa. The lower resolution sensor is NOT going to suddenly decide 20kPa is 80kPa. It will simply be uncertain about the difference between 20kPa and 21kPa.
The problem you're having is the MAP signal itself fluctuating from pulses in the intake tract OR noise in the MAP signal caused by some external influence. The former is more likely. These fluctuations may very well have been mechanically damped by the MPS. MAP signal fluctuations are always a problem for any speed-density system. Your plan of adding some restriction to the MAP line is a good one. It will, unfortunately, cause some loss of response, but that mostly means you're going to have to use a TPSdot acceleration map, rather than relying on a MAPdot acceleration map.
Using the gigantic D-Jet injectors is also a problem, unless you run very low fuel pressure. You could try running smaller injectors, or you could simply adjust the fuel pressure down to, say, 25psi. There's a formula in the Megamanual that relates fuel pressure to actual flow, using the rated flow (which is normally done at 42psi or thereabouts, it's in the manual). The stock 2.0 injectors at 42psi would be good enough for Jake's wildest fantasy engine.
Posted by: lapuwali May 4 2005, 12:40 PM
| QUOTE (glstrojan @ May 4 2005, 10:03 AM) |
| i used to think 914's were cool but now i'm learning there are a bunch of geeks driving around in them |
Hey, what's it say below my name?
Geeks are kewl. We can BS better than anyone else...
Posted by: Tom Perso May 4 2005, 12:48 PM
This is turning into a really interesting thread.
I am building a MS system for an engine that people will say it will never run on. I have a 2270 with a Web 163/86b cam on 104deg lobe centers. I've heard everything from it won't idle, to it will never run right as I will have very little vaccuum...
2.0L injectors are HUGE. I might start off with some 1.7L ones and see how it works, or go to some Toyota injectors and make my own fuel rail. Big deal.
I think I can make it work...
Maybe I'm just crazy though...
Later,
Tom
Posted by: redshift May 4 2005, 01:41 PM
| QUOTE (Racer Chris @ May 4 2005, 12:12 AM) | ||
I agree 100% The stock intake already works pretty good for a stock size engine. Without adding a real good exhaust the engine efficiency won't change a whole lot. The stock cam is a major limiting factor. The heavy stock valves and weak springs limit rpm. IMNSHO my Tangerine Super header is still the best bolt on power booster available for a stock 2 liter, 9% torque increase - dyno proven. You can't get that anywhere else without splitting the case. |
I want to by the throttle bodies off of your engine.
That's what we should be doing here, parting out our own motors.
M
Posted by: lapuwali May 4 2005, 02:12 PM
| QUOTE (Tom Perso @ May 4 2005, 10:48 AM) |
| This is turning into a really interesting thread. I am building a MS system for an engine that people will say it will never run on. I have a 2270 with a Web 163/86b cam on 104deg lobe centers. I've heard everything from it won't idle, to it will never run right as I will have very little vaccuum... 2.0L injectors are HUGE. I might start off with some 1.7L ones and see how it works, or go to some Toyota injectors and make my own fuel rail. Big deal. I think I can make it work... Maybe I'm just crazy though... Later, Tom |
Wild cams are the main reason why Alpha-N is still used at all. They can mess up MAP sensors, airflow sensors, and just about anything else that tries to do load sensing independent of the throttle position. Fortunately, MAP when only used for load sensing doesn't have to be particularly fast responding. You can "smooth" the MAP curve out considerably, either with restriction or in software (MS doesn't have this option, but adding it wouldn't be all that hard). As I understand it, the cams have to be pretty wild before anything serious is required, though.
Motorcycles have a pretty hard time with this, as they generally have VERY wild cams. To solve this, what many systems do is use BOTH Alpha-N and speed-density. They use alpha-N in the "bad" rev ranges (usually low end, but it can be up in the midrange on some engines), and use speed-density in the "good" rev ranges, and blend the two together in the transitions. The Electromotive ECU will do this out of the box, and I seem to remember there's some code for this in MS. The "extra" code has the kitchen sink in there, so I'd poke around in the MS forums (look in MSnS) and see if you can find a reference to it. If you can't, ask jmscortina if it can do it. He wrote the code, so he'll know if it's possible. This assumes you actually NEED this, of course. It may be possible to tune out the problems with the stock MS.
Posted by: Mueller May 4 2005, 02:17 PM
James...the ability to "blend" from TPS to MAP is one of the reasons i went with the Link ECU, the SDS system is one or the other, it cannot do both and with my individual throttle bodies and cam choice, I might have to use the blending feature.....
Posted by: lapuwali May 4 2005, 02:57 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 4 2005, 12:17 PM) |
| James...the ability to "blend" from TPS to MAP is one of the reasons i went with the Link ECU, the SDS system is one or the other, it cannot do both and with my individual throttle bodies and cam choice, I might have to use the blending feature..... |
A clarification, there IS code for MS to do this, but only the newer MS-II system (new 16-bit processor, still basically in testing). It doesn't appear the 8-bit MS systems (including the confusingly named v2.2, which is NOT MS-II) won't do it.
SDS doesn't do it at all. They can to MAP or TPS, but it can't blend them.
Posted by: DNHunt May 4 2005, 03:20 PM
James
That was the same conclusion I came to also. I guess I didn't phase it too well. The problem with my MAP signal in that log was noise and it was mechanical from the intake. I am essentially filtering it now with a restriction (1mm in dia. 5mm long with an expansion chamber that is a VW fuel filter. That has helped greatly. You are right that it slowed response and I need accelerration enrichment. I'm still tinkering with that.
I went to ~ 160 cc/min injectors that were used on BMW L-jet systems Bosch 0 280 150 151s. and that helped. Borg Warner makes a new replacement that is reasonable except that the fuel lines are not swedged onto the injectors. I found that out the hard way. FI clamps fixed that. The place I got them at was upset at me for pointing it out to them. They figured it was my fault for using them on a different application. I suggested they report it to Borg Warner as a potential serious problem and they asked me to leave.
I've got it running with the EDIS ignition. The coil is a real noisy SOB so I had to shield a bunch of stuff.
I'm getting real close now.
Dave
Posted by: Rotary'14 May 4 2005, 03:46 PM
If I recall correctly,, the "MegaManual" suggest using a chambered device like a fuel filter plumbed into the MAP sensor vacuum line to dampen the fluctuations in vacuum that a wild cam would produce.
lapuwali,,, I thought the MS can do alpha N.
http://www.megasquirt.info/manual/mtune.htm
about 1/2 way down the page alpha N is mentioned.
EDIT,, I read previous posts a little more carefully and I am mistaken, MS doesn't blend the MAP and alpha N inputs. I missed the blend part
More MS info for others who might be interested,,
http://www.msefi.com/index.php
-Rob
Posted by: Type 4 May 4 2005, 04:48 PM
Here is the answer to question the 2.0 plenum will not work with a big engine
.
CFM = CID x RPM x VE ÷ 3464
Here is the CFM required by a 105x80 2771cc 169 cid
CFM = 169 x 6500 x 0.95 ÷ 3464 = 301.26 CFM
A set of 2.0 runners and 2.0 plenum wit a 65mm TB will flow 330 cfm @10 in vac at 6500rpm.
As to those who say that the system will not give 20 to 30% more power.
Due to the very crude L jetronic fuel injection and point ingition that can not meter the fuel and spark nearly as precise a moden FI system.
With the ability to control the fuel and spark via the EMS that can vary the spark timing and fuel delivery to optimize the combustion this will give more power it is that simple.
I will site the 258 Jeep 6 cylinder as an example.
AMC's big six, a 258-cid OHV I-6 engine Carter BBD 2 barrel carb 115HP
The 258 was equipped with computer controled fuel injection and ignition to produced 173 hp
That is an increase of 58hp an increase of 50 % more horsepower
That is what happens when you control the fuel and spark.
to give the best burn.
Posted by: redshift May 4 2005, 04:51 PM
Never thought of it!
How much for a complete drop in 258, with injection?
M
Posted by: mike_the_man May 4 2005, 04:53 PM
| QUOTE (Type 4 @ May 4 2005, 02:48 PM) |
| Here is tha answer to question the 2.0 plenum will not work with a big engine . CFM = CID x RPM x VE ÷ 3464 Here is the CFM required by a 105x80 2771cc CFM = 169 x 6500 x 0.95 ÷ 3464 = 301.26 CFM A set of 2.0 runners and 2.0 plenum wit a 65mm TB will flow 330 cfm @10 in vac at 6500rpm. As to those who say that the system will not give 20 to 30% more power. Due to the very crude L jetronic fuel injection and point ingintion that can not meter the fuel and spark nearly as precise a moden FI system. With the ability to control the fuel and spark via the EMS that can vary the spark timing and fuel delivery to optimize the combustion this will give more power it is that simple. I will site the 258 Jeep 6 cylinder as an example. AMC's big six, a 258-cid with 258 ci (4.2L) OHV I-6 engine Carter BBD 2 barrel carb 115HP The 258 was equipped with computercontroled fuel injection and ignition to produced 173 hp That is an increase of 58hp an increase of 50 % That is what happens when you control the fuel and spark. to give the best burn. |
And you have dyno results to back this claim up? I mean no offence, but a Jeep 6 cylinder is a pretty different engine from a TIV. Everything that I've read suggests that the major restriction in performance is in the exhaust side. Without dyno results, I don't think anybody will take your 20% - 30% claim seriously.
Posted by: Paul Illick May 4 2005, 05:08 PM
Why do you guys all say that the claim of 20-30 percent in horsepower is bullshit? Go to http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm, hit the "research and development" tab on the left, choose the "KitCarlson EMS 2056 "E"" tab on the right, and read the first sentence, which says "We've already told you how well the KitCarlson EMS works; just see below the phenomenal near 33% gain in HP and torque. " and is followed with a series of dyno graphs demonstrating the results. That gain is over an engine that was said to be "optimized" for carburetors, but hey, 30 percent is 30 percent. And there are graphs. LOTS of graphs.
Posted by: Type 4 May 4 2005, 05:13 PM
Thanks Paul you beat me to it.
Posted by: Qarl May 4 2005, 05:15 PM
Lotus was able to get about 15 more horsepower for the Elise engine (same as the Celica GTS), by adding thieir own fuel management programming... about 7% or 8%
The internals were all the same.
Posted by: jwalters May 4 2005, 05:33 PM
Jet chips has also dyno'd the Stage II chip for my Dodge truck--18 hp and 24 FTLBs of TQ increase with just an optimized MODULE ,,,,,,NOT an entirley new FI sys.
People on this board can really get all out of kilter---
Posted by: Mueller May 4 2005, 05:35 PM
the claimed improvement should not be posted unless backed up by fact with a stock motor...Jakes numbers don't count.......
as for the improved numbers by Lotus, not that big of a deal, I'm sure Toyota could have squeezed the same numbers out of the engine if they felt they needed to tune the motor to the extreme....Lotus could have just changed the rpm limit, the advance curve or something that Toyota felt was within a safe and tolerable range/limit..
I'm not saying there will not be an improvement, the motor better run as good or better with a $1500 system installed on it if it was my money
personally, I think for 95% of us, we wouldn;t know the difference between a MoTec, Haltech, Megasquirt or the Emerald system once installed and tuned halfway properly.
A $5K system is not going to run any better than a $1000 system unless you need all of the options and inputs/outputs available........it's all in the tuning
Posted by: lapuwali May 4 2005, 05:48 PM
On Jake's page, I saw two graphs (not "lots and lots"), and neither showed a before and after with and without the EMS. Nowhere in the text does it say that the 33% increase was from the EMS system by itself.
The Jet chip is essentially doing exactly what this $1600 "upgrade" is doing for you. Replace the non-programmable, non-"chippable" ECU with a programmable ECU that you could then tune to get more power. What is 18hp in terms of percentage increase? I'll bet it's a lot less than 20%, let alone 30%.
I have no doubt that it would be possible to get 5% more power with tuning. 10% may even be reachable. More than that, you need to change something else, too. Changing the cam alone can get you 15% or more. Changing the exhaust can get you close to 10%.
Posted by: jwalters May 4 2005, 05:59 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 4 2005, 06:35 PM) |
| the claimed improvement should not be posted unless backed up by fact with a stock motor...Jakes numbers don't count....... as for the improved numbers by Lotus, not that big of a deal, I'm sure Toyota could have squeezed the same numbers out of the engine if they felt they needed to tune the motor to the extreme....Lotus could have just changed the rpm limit, the advance curve or something that Toyota felt was within a safe and tolerable range/limit.. I'm not saying there will not be an improvement, the motor better run as good or better with a $1500 system installed on it if it was my money personally, I think for 95% of us, we wouldn;t know the difference between a MoTec, Haltech, Megasquirt or the Emerald system once installed and tuned halfway properly. A $5K system is not going to run any better than a $1000 system unless you need all of the options and inputs/outputs available........it's all in the tuning |
No, it is not all in the tuning, if by tuning you are referring to laptop connection and how you modulate ignition curve and pulse width.
Why would Jakes numbers not count???
I don't give a hoot about what "TYPE " of motor this is--it is still an air pump. Period.
With all of the plethoras of engines on the market from import to domestic--they all have one thing in common: They ALL respond to FI tuning parameters outside of the " BOX "
Yes, each and every one of those motors WILL make more power and TQ with a simple chip change--but if any of you ever pick up an import tuner rag and read along like skippy to see how others are tackling situations most of us as a community would be better off---again, I do not care about what type of motor this is---those of you that continue to preach about how this particular engine is so ungodly unholy different from every other airpump out there is just crap---you are impeding progress------
Why in the hell would so many of you be getting so damn caustic about " DYNO NUMBERS TO PROVE A GAIN "???? Do not a single solitary one of you own a modern automotive product??? Do you really not positivley see the benifit to going from an analog 30+ year old piece of shit FI to a modern full function digital one??? Have not a single one of you ever picked up a brochure about a particular automotive improvement or mag article explaining about how most strides in power production is done with upgrades to digital FI ???????????
You know, when I first came to this board--I was so relieved to find exploration and knowledge--but over the last few months I find only bitterness, outrage, pointing fingers, extremely bad advice, pent up rage, outwardly stupid ass people who I firmly believe are using this site to vent thier screwed up family life frustrations and GOD knows what else------I have enough problems with my life than to sit here and put up with this garbage---
Based on rhetoric and suggestions on this board, and with GREAT caution on my part, as well as educating myself on components I have not been around in about 15 years, I have come to the educated conclusion that I do not need most of all the stuff everybody " SWEARS BY "......
I am leaving and may never return--it will all be based on anything else I may or may not read----there is just too much crap here,in this land of tolerance I will no longer tolerate it---good luck to all of you
Posted by: redshift May 4 2005, 06:02 PM
I have Djet, and I can tell you that my car get's a 100% perfomance gain by using it.
M
Posted by: nebreitling May 4 2005, 06:08 PM
dooooood, chiiilllllllll... sounds like maybe you've got some pent up rage yourself.
less all get along....
Posted by: grantsfo May 4 2005, 06:28 PM
| QUOTE (Qarl @ May 4 2005, 03:15 PM) |
| Lotus was able to get about 15 more horsepower for the Elise engine (same as the Celica GTS), by adding thieir own fuel management programming... about 7% or 8% The internals were all the same. |
Correction Lotus achieved a 10 hp increase over the Celicas Yamaha-designed 2ZZ-GE and its achieved at higher RPM. I hate to admit it, but I'm a bit of a Toyota nerd. The 2ZZ-GE also had intake and exhaust optimized by Lotus. So ECU tweeking did bring some power, but not much.
Posted by: SpecialK May 4 2005, 06:43 PM
| QUOTE (nebreitling @ May 4 2005, 04:08 PM) |
| dooooood, chiiilllllllll... sounds like maybe you've got some pent up rage yourself. less all get along.... |
"You know, when I first came to this board--I was so relieved to find exploration and knowledge--but over the last few months I find only bitterness, outrage, pointing fingers, extremely bad advice, pent up rage, outwardly stupid ass people who I firmly believe are using this site to vent thier screwed up family life frustrations and GOD knows what else------I have enough problems with my life than to sit here and put up with this garbage---"
Hmmm....sounds like someone needs a nap.....or a Valium....or possibly both.
Posted by: Mueller May 4 2005, 06:45 PM
| QUOTE |
| Why in the hell would so many of you be getting so damn caustic about " DYNO NUMBERS TO PROVE A GAIN "???? |
We are not trying to bust Steves balls, but it's in an advertisement stating this as fact...some people that don't know better will believe it...do you believe the HP increase that companies claim by wrapping your fuel lines with magnets??? if not, why not?? it's been "proven" by somebody out there
| QUOTE |
| No, it is not all in the tuning, if by tuning you are referring to laptop connection and how you modulate ignition curve and pulse width. |
YES, it is ALL in the tuning....there is not a single fuel injection system out there that has artificial intelligence and can tune itself 100%
Go have a beer or two and maybe you'll feel better
Posted by: Jake Raby May 4 2005, 08:08 PM
The EMS comparison on my page was done with the same advance rate in Dave's direct fire arrangement as the engine had with a Mallory, 12 degrees of advance and grey sprngs set to 28 degrees full... I plotted them just for that purpose. we had an AFR of 13:1 with carbs and 13.5:1 if I remember correctly with the EFI- nuttin else was changed and the tests were done on the same day and yielded EGT within 3% as far as I can remember. I am still at the hospital with my dad now and have no access to those records.
That test was done incredibly with very like settings, as close as one could get from carbs to EFI undoubtedly...
The engine I tested was very universal in its arrangement, the cam could work well with carbs or FI and its a rare breed.
I saw the numbers just like dave did and 3 other people in my shop, we were all totally amazed.. BTW- The FI engine ran at least 50 degree cooler head temps, even with a leaner mixture- as much as 14:1!
Posted by: tnorthern May 4 2005, 08:24 PM
| QUOTE |
| " DYNO NUMBERS TO PROVE A GAIN "???? |
BECAUSE THEY ARE FACTS!!!!
Thought I should shout also
Honestly no one would entertain this kind of silliness when building a full race engine so why for a street motor. I have ran motors on a dyno before, it's not that tough. Rent time, hook up exhaust, (you don't even need water here!), hook up fuel, give it juice, and start. From there it is a really simple process, obviously this is over simplified but hell it's close... That being said maybe some should look into Prozac 
Posted by: Racer Chris May 4 2005, 11:59 PM
I gained 30% peak power between 1.8L engines for my race car without switching to FI! It's dyno proven.
All it took was a cam with .07 more lift, 20 deg. more duration, .5 more compression, many hours spent on the heads by Len Hoffman, assembly and optimization by Jake Raby, fully prepped carbs by Chris Foley, Evo exhaust by Tangerine, and a thousand more rpm. Piece of cake.
Steve Stromberg needs to put together an engine, install the EFI, drive a car to the local chassis dyno and show everyone first hand how good it is...
or find a guinea pig ready to spend $$ on an unproven combination. Maybe the system is so nice it won't matter whether the power is increased or not.
I'm sure that, regardless of the dyno results, it will feel good in the seat of the pants. Any smooth running 914 with more power than stock will.
I'm assembling an engine for William Harris' restoration. He wanted an improved FI system, and was going to pay for the Kit Carlson system once it was all figured out and available as a bolt on product. Time ran out though. I doubt you could convince him to lay out the $$ for the Emerald without proving it first, since he's paying someone else to put it together. We'll stick with the D-Jet and know it will run just fine as soon as it is installed. It won't cost anywhere near $1600 to tune, and he will have money left over for FI repairs in the future.
Posted by: Z Driver May 5 2005, 12:10 AM
SDS makes a really nice standalone EFI system. I'm buying a SDS system for my turbo project on my Dastun. It is the easiest of all standalones to install and get working. No laptop is required baecause they give you a handheld device for that. It's ~$800 for a four cylinder system that does fuel only. I know they sell cylinder head temperature sensors for aircooled applications.
http://sdsefi.com
Posted by: Paul Illick May 5 2005, 05:45 AM
I don’t know what the arguments are about. Or could be about. It seems implausible to me too, but Jake’s a respected engine builder, a pioneer of aircooled technologies, known to be honest and forthright, and he’s telling you, with charts, graphs and dyno results to prove it, that it’s possible to get a 30 percent horsepower gain with the only change being a switch to programmable fuel injection. No other change, Chris (and come to think if it, knowing this, why are you still running carbs?).
Of course your results may vary, and of course if you don’t have a dyno to help tune you’ll almost certainly get less, but where else are you going to get that kind of horsepower gain for fifteen hundred bucks? If you want to dump on Steve, fine, but don’t challenge his veracity because he indicated that 30 percent more HP is possible. That's not right.
Posted by: synthesisdv May 5 2005, 06:05 AM
| QUOTE (Paul Illick @ May 5 2005, 06:45 AM) |
| Chris (and come to think if it, knowing this, why are you still running carbs?). |
SCCA Production Car rules.....
Posted by: Ray Warren May 5 2005, 06:21 AM
| QUOTE (Z Driver @ May 5 2005, 01:10 AM) |
| SDS makes a really nice standalone EFI system. I'm buying a SDS system for my turbo project on my Dastun. It is the easiest of all standalones to install and get working. No laptop is required baecause they give you a handheld device for that. It's ~$800 for a four cylinder system that does fuel only. I know they sell cylinder head temperatures for aircooled applications. http://sdsefi.com |
I just installed a SDS fuel only system on my car.
So far so good.
Starts good, idles good and drives good.
I still have some "experimenting" to do though.
I will be posting pics of the install in the next couple of weeks.
Posted by: tat2dphreak May 5 2005, 08:03 AM
ya'll lost me WAY back, but it's fascinating... it's like hearing pilots talk, I have no idea what's going on, but it sounds cool...
and this thread helped me a lot... I KNOW I'm not going EFI until I have a friend close by that knows all of this shit...
Posted by: rhodyguy May 5 2005, 10:01 AM
challenging a person's voracity is completely acceptable if they outright lie to you. i'm pushing on the tredle to get the grinding wheel up to speed.
k
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 11:12 AM
I chose SDS for the electronics portion of my EFI kits to be used on all future engines here at RAT. There were many reasons for this including the huge simplicity advantage that it has over all other systems. Simplicity is a must because most of my customers are not "wrenchs" in the engine department- those guys buy the parts from the store and do it them selves.
When I put together my FI kits (which are being tested as we speak against carbs on 9 different engines here at the shop) I wanted an engineered, compatible 100% complete system from the fuel pump to the pressure regulator and everything between.
I have also switched ALL of my personal cars to the same system so I can experience the same changes and tuning experiences that my customers will see and face- it will help me to further the development greatly.
Any product that has the important task of both feeding the engine with fuel and doing so with accuracy and easability had better be tested to an extent that never really ends. In this indistry so many things are just made to run on one engine (if that) and then sold to the market as being perfect... It sucks.
Development and testing costs and costs a lot- more than anything else involved with my shop undoubtedly, but it is a necessity. I will be sharing my EFI charts and comparative tests in a library on the site as we gather more results and gain more and more experience with the system. I have 7 engines to test with EFI in the next month or so and all of them will first be tested with carbs, the most exploratory will be my 3 liter... I am sure it will see huge gains because the engine needs the added air so badly!
If a product isn't tested, proven and if the seller cannot cough up data on demand it should not be sold- its not really a product.
Posted by: lapuwali May 5 2005, 12:03 PM
Jake, I think the issue here is that Steve and others are leaning on a statement on your website that appears to say that you took a carb'd Type IV, removed the carbs, fit the Kit Carlson EMS, and saw a 33% increase without doing anything other than tuning the EMS.
Is this true?
Posted by: rhodyguy May 5 2005, 01:53 PM
i STRONGLY suggest you contact me BEFORE you purchase anything from Steve Stromberg (dba type4parts). send me your phone # and i'll call you on my $.05.
k
Posted by: buck toenges May 5 2005, 02:22 PM
Is Jake shying away from the kit carlson kit? And if he is why?
Posted by: tommy914 May 5 2005, 02:29 PM
See this http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=29760&hl=.
Kit Carlson EMS is on hold.
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 02:54 PM
| QUOTE |
| Jake, I think the issue here is that Steve and others are leaning on a statement on your website that appears to say that you took a carb'd Type IV, removed the carbs, fit the Kit Carlson EMS, and saw a 33% increase without doing anything other than tuning the EMS. Is this true? |
That is exactly what happened.. Same day, same weather, same engine, same EGT and not even a valve jb was accomplished between the changes.
That very day is the one that let me see exactly the benefits of programmable FI and the main reason why I have switched to nothing but FI here. I did the same thing with my 912E and while I had no dyno numbers from this swap the 50+ degree drop in head temps with the same EGT and the power difference at lower RPM was worth the swap if nothing else.
The day we saw the huge differences Charles was here from LN, Dave Carlson was here, Len Hoffman was here and even the writer from Excellence magazine saw part of the testing and numbers- This is not bullshit, the graphs are posted at www.aircooledtechnology.com/research.htm
Part of working with a dyno is going by what the engine tells you, the dyno is not giving you results- the engine is, you just have to ppen mindedly listen and instead of arguing with results try to comprehend them... This is the same thing that happened when I tested manifold lengths, velocity stack shapes and lengths and even something as simple as changing oils between tests...
BTW- Forget about peak numbers- a good example of this is my Bus engine.. It made 7HP more with carbs than it does with CIS fuel injection, but the torque curve is tremendously smoother and it makes power all the way down to 500 RPM at WOT, with carbs it fell flat on its face below 1800!
I still love carbs but tomorrow is not yesterday and if I want to stay ahead of the game we have to get efficiency even higher and create cleaner burning engines that can pass emission tests across the country, I'm sure its about to get difficult for performance engines to be streetable and when the time comes we'll already have the details worked out while the others either go under or get caught up way behind the 8 ball.
I did not shy away from the Kit Carlson, Dave has issues with his dad's health and he could probably not keep up with my demand as we HAVE to stay on schedule. The Kit Carlson system is awesome but it needs a bunch of small issues worked out and Dave simply can't do that now, so I looked to SDS for the electronics. I used his system on my 912E for 18K miles and it worked great but had two small issues during that time. The SDS was already a proven system and the guys were willing to give us our own tailored wire harnass and etc and we are testing it now. I have told dave that when he is ready to do future EMS testing my dyno is his if he needs it, by then I hope to have the new dyno set up and running so it will make things much less stressful.
I will be testing more and more engines with carbs Vs EFI as time goes on, like I said I have 7 to test in thge next month and they all vary in displacement from 2056- 3 Liters. I plan on fully optimizing the engines with carbs and using my new datalogger to plot the traits of the tests, this way we can test all 4 CHT and EGT at the same time. These datalogger graphs are easy to post on the net and thats exactly what I plan to do.
The entire time from August- the end of the year I have dedicated my time to EFI testing and comparisons only- I can't wait.
Posted by: lapuwali May 5 2005, 03:08 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ May 5 2005, 12:54 PM) | ||
That is exactly what happened.. Same day, same weather, same engine, same EGT and not even a valve jb was accomplished between the changes. |
Um. Words taste good....
We need an eating my words smiley...
Sorry, Steve, I guess it IS possible to see that kind of increase, then. My sincerest apologies.
Jake, if you ever have a spare second (heh), if you'd post dyno charts with carbs and with EFI, no other changes, I'm sure that would go a long way to dispelling myths and shut people up sooner, including me.
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 03:29 PM
They are posted- on the research page of the site... Or at least they are supposed to be!
Posted by: Mueller May 5 2005, 03:42 PM
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 5 2005, 02:08 PM) | ||||
Um. Words taste good.... We need an eating my words smiley... Sorry, Steve, I guess it IS possible to see that kind of increase, then. My sincerest apologies. Jake, if you ever have a spare second (heh), if you'd post dyno charts with carbs and with EFI, no other changes, I'm sure that would go a long way to dispelling myths and shut people up sooner, including me. |
still....the original ad states a huge increase over "existing" FI which to me, means stock.......
Posted by: lapuwali May 5 2005, 04:01 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 5 2005, 01:42 PM) |
| still....the original ad states a huge increase over "existing" FI which to me, means stock....... |
Granted, but these numbers either mean carbs really suck compared to stock EFI, or the stock EFI really sucks and is about the same as carbs.
If carbs are roughly equal with the stock EFI, then Jake's results would be equalled even with an stock EFI to aftermarket EFI swap, so Steve's claim is legit.
If a stock to aftermarket EFI swap DIDN'T show a big increase, then carbs are dramatically worse than the stock EFI, and the perennial question on this board of stock EFI v. carbs is answered. No one in their right mind should be running carbs if you get a 20-30% increase by putting on the stock EFI instead. I've thought all along EFI was better, but I have a hard time believing it's THAT much better. I also had a hard time believing that swapping from well set up carbs to EFI would make as big a difference as it shows on Jake's site (and yes, I found those other graphs), but I don't dispute his results.
Jake's results are even relatively apples to apples, since he swapped a pair of IDFs for a pair of Jenvey IDF-like throttle bodies, so one can't claim that there were major changes in induction plumbing messing up the results.
Posted by: redshift May 5 2005, 04:04 PM
I think carbs suck, Djet is much better, and new injection would be super peachy.
M
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 04:11 PM
Stock FI on the engine I tested would have been a joke- It was 2563ccs...
The carb VS EFI test was as accurate as it could be.. Matching EGT, matching AFR (and even leaner at times with the FI to see if head temps got higher) and equal weather on test day. The runner length was the same and the carbs were 44mm and T/Bs were 45mm..
I think a chunk of the gain also came from the direct fire ignition being spot on with spark delivery and timing. The carbbed engine used a Mallory Unilite and while it's way better than a stock dizzy or 009 its still a dizzy. I have seen a 10% gain in power on a 140HP engine in a test from a Mallory to direct fire, especially at higher RPM. Lets not forget that the direct fire was plotted the same as the advance curve of the Mallory for comparative reasons.
Many of my SDS based systems will be stand alone FI and will not incorporate the ignition into the equation so direct fuel only comparisons will be much easier than it was with the Kit Carlson that HAD to use direct fire.
I am using direct fore on the "Super 2 liter plus" high MPG engine as well as my system going onto the 912E and the one I am installing onto the 3 liter...
The results were real..
Posted by: rhodyguy May 5 2005, 04:12 PM
peachy cobbler miles. with vanilla ice cream.
k
Posted by: lapuwali May 5 2005, 04:26 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ May 5 2005, 02:11 PM) |
| while it's way better than a stock dizzy or 009 its still a dizzy. I have seen a 10% gain in power on a 140HP engine in a test from a Mallory to direct fire, especially at higher RPM. Lets not forget that the direct fire was plotted the same as the advance curve of the Mallory for comparative reasons. |
That's very interesting also. The advantage of what you're calling "direct fire" (wasted spark multi-coil ignition) is longer dwell on each coil between firings, which can esp. become an issue at higher revs. There's also one less "gap" for the spark to jump, since it doesn't have to jump from the rotor to the cap post. I'd expect to see something, but 10% is quite a bit more than I would expect to see.
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 04:36 PM
Keep in mind that I see way more than a 10% gain in testing with the Mallory Vs. a 009 in most cases. Spark accuracy is the HUGE key here as one can use something as novel as a timing light to see the accuracy between the 009 and the Mallory. With the 009 the spark dances all over the timing wheel and you have to guess what the timing really is. With the Mallory its stable and steady and that creates huge gains because some cylinders may be firing at other crank positions than others.
Now keep in mind that I see 10HP gains at peak ALL THE TIME by changing full advance by as little as 2 crank degrees!!!! I see this every time I dyno an engine, sometimes it's not 10HP but it can be even more.
The direct fire is spot on, so when you set the timing at 28 degrees you get exactly 28 degrees at the plug, not 30 sometimes or 32 other times or even 26 degrees at others- its all over the place... That effects performance and even idle.
Crank fired direct fire is even better because the end play of the crankshaft does not alter the timing at all. It is not uncommon to have an engine idling at 5 degrees and have your buddy hit the clutch and see the timing go up 2-3 degrees because the crank was pushed forward a few thou and advanced the timing- this is worse with worn engines... In the old days on circle tracks we'd run more end play and ride the clutch a tad on the straights for a few more ponies....
Spark accuracy is paramount- as RPM gets higher and higher it's results get more and more clear and can be seen a mile away on a dyno chart, even those that show us efficiency and not anything about power at all..(EGT, CHT, BSFC and etc)
Posted by: Type 4 May 5 2005, 09:16 PM
Kevin,
The engine was sold as is where is.
If you found that the engine was not suitable at time of delivery you should have called me.
When you took delivery of the engine, when it was remove from Scott the deal was done.
You saw the engine on Saturday but didnt take delivert until Monday that was plenty of time to call me.
I would have refunded your money at the WCC.
The engine will need to be inspected to insure it is returned in resaleable condition and I will send you a refund.
This is the standard that any company uses on returns.
I will arrange the shipment back to me but you will need to prepare the engine for shipment by putting it securily on a pallet and wraping with plastic.
If you need to get a pallet, The pallet will fit in the trunk of your 914.
The trucking company will have a lift gate to hoist the engine into the truck.
I am more than happy to refund your money.
As I have stated in every email I will refund your money.
I am sorry that you got a better engine than you thought you were buying.
I hought it had 1500miles on the motor.
Tom who built it said the actual mileage is about a tank and a half of gas before he decided to pull it out and put a six in.
I thought it was a stock 2056cc rebuild I didnt know that Tom had Put Big Valve 2.0 heads With a full balance A euro cam And all the other good stuff in.
I know most guys would be stoked to get engine with abou 300 miles on a rebuild with a set of ported Big valve 2.0 heads in a fully balanced engine and a new clutch and pressure plate on an engine with cooling tin shroud Altenator and Dizzy for $1900
Like I have told you in every Email I will refund your money and arrange shipping back to me.
Steve
Posted by: ottox914 May 5 2005, 10:06 PM
Jake- if you're going w/the SDS system for fuel only, what about the spark? Staying with the Mallory? What about the "safeguard" system that was on your 914? And, what other EFI systems did you consider and why go with SDS, aside from the "simple" qualities of the tuneing? Just curious to see what your thought process was and why-
thanks-
ottox914
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 10:29 PM
We will stay with a Mallory for spark delivery on engines that do not receive direct fire. The Mallory is a 3 wire hook up and does not complicate the install and thats a huge plus along with the fact that I can tune one in my sleep.
The safeguard can still work with the Mallory but not with direct fire. The safeguard is difficult to properly set up and can hamper performance and cause gueswork so I don't use them on 90% of the engines- they are not needed.
As for the other systems I looked into:
I looked at autronic, Haltech, LINK, autronic and all the regular systems. All of them needed a laptop and not all my customers had a laptop and some of them would have been intimidated by the tuning of such a system- not good for me or them. The SDS guys were willing to custom tailor the wire harnass for my engines so they would be perfectly set up for the vehicle the engine was going to be installed into. With SDS the install into the car after we are done with the dyno work is literally a 3 wire hook up and we ship the engine with the entire harnass already terminated and ready to hook to the fuel pump and etc. This was paramount!!! The worst thing in the world for my engine is to be the victim of a hasty crappily planned install thats too involved!
The big thing here was with customer support. The guys at SDS speak english and answer the phone to help us with issues, if there is an issue you can speak to a human that is in the same time zone, not in Australia.. These guys will actually help you!
SDS was chosen not just for simple tuning, but also for simple install. If I have learned anything through the years it's that my engine's worst enemy is the wrong guy with a 13mm wrench so we have to make the engine so damn good and simple that it doesn't need a single adjustment- else we are risking 80 hours of our work on the two minutes it takes to make the one adjustment that can smoke our baby... People do some dumb things!
Posted by: Mueller May 5 2005, 10:33 PM
I've been happy with tech support w/Link* so far.....California rep, talks a little funny with his New Zealand accent, responds to e-mails in a timely manner
*no laptop needed as well, but it cost a few hundred bucks more than SDS, but you knew that
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 10:42 PM
I looked into LINK extensively, but decided against it mainly because of their harnass.. It was choice #2 though with SDS being #1...
My brand new Autronic system is for sale in the classifieds, I decided to use SDS on the 3.0 as well so the autronic goes bye bye... Its at a smokin deal too!
Posted by: Mueller May 5 2005, 10:47 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ May 5 2005, 09:42 PM) |
| I looked into LINK extensively, but decided against it mainly because of their harnass.. It was choice #2 though with SDS being #1... My brand new Autronic system is for sale in the classifieds, I decided to use SDS on the 3.0 as well so the autronic goes bye bye... Its at a smokin deal too! |
interesting......another Autronic might be up for sale soon as well....a fellow club member might sell his to get the Link....
I was "this" close to getting the SDS and "they" actually talked me out of it...I'm sure it would have worked fine, but I wanted more gadgets to play with or knowing me, I wanted more featues/options so that I have more excuses not to have a running car
Posted by: redshift May 5 2005, 11:01 PM
Steve, how much for that motor, injected?
M
Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2005, 11:19 PM
Gadgets can be good... Or very bad according to the guy thats playing with them!
gadgets sell things, simplicity keeps them running..
I want my system on the complete engines to need less than 3 wires to be connected to have the car up and running and I'm even shooting a video to accompany the arrangements that will walk the users through the engine install step by step.
Posted by: Type 4 May 5 2005, 11:39 PM
That engine was built by a guy down the street from me who is not online (He just is not into computers).
He builds bitchen sailboats The Bristol Channel Cutters and cool cars mini Coopers and Morris minors with big engines.
Aong with a bunch of other cars.
He built a 914 with the engine then drove it and wanted more so he is building a 3.0 six.
He needed to get the engine out of his way so I posted it here for him.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 6 2005, 12:12 AM
ok. tell the whole story. if you don't want to, i will, in my own special way, when i'm ready. where are those manifolds? just answer that one stupid question steve. EXACTLY when and where did you remove them. once the check was in your hand the engine WAS MINE!! the only reason you had to touch it was to load it up. you had no business putting a wrench on it. tell the truth steve. please send me that business license information. your conditions of return change daily. if you think i have trust enough to send that engine back without my money you're crazy. that you think you need inspect the engine is even crazier. are you worried i might pull parts off it as you did? your opinion of what YOU think I should have done just does not factor in, i could not care less. i will be contacting tom tomorrow so i may get his mailing address and forward your last email to him . the one where you imply he is a liar. enjoy!! how is it you get yourself in so many flame wars? don't bother miles. it has a cam for carbs. i don't want you shipping an engine to georgia that won't work for you and is missing components. besides steve can't sell what he doesn't own. keep us posted steve.
k
k
Posted by: Type 4 May 6 2005, 12:39 AM
Kevin I have told you over and over I will refund your money.
You had plenty ot time to inspect the engine before you took delivery.
The Carbs and mainfold were never included with the engine .
You coukld have called me while you were at the WCC before you took delivery and I would have returned your money at he WCC Again if you are not happy with the engine I will refund your money I have told you over and over that I will refund your money.
If you are unhappy with the engine I will refund your money.
Posted by: sean_v8_914 May 6 2005, 12:43 AM
wow theres alota internet engine builders piping in on this thread. I just started reading it. the start was technically interesting, Intriguing, but jerry springerism has prevailed again...
ya gotta ask yourself; how many engines have ya really built ?
Posted by: rhodyguy May 6 2005, 01:03 AM
you're crazy steve. get professional help. where did the ad ever say no carbs or intakes. that's right it didn't. it said your own carbs. you had plenty of time to get the engine specs you failed to provide. it was a nice blocking move to keep me from contacting tom. first it was "there were no intakes" now it's "they weren't included". what's next? keep on with it steve. people will draw their own conclusions. if this was an isolated incident that would be one thing. you piss people off all the time. here and other places. i have to give you credit for doing it so well. good question. how many? that lasted?
k
Posted by: Type 4 May 6 2005, 06:16 AM
Look Kevin I will refund your money if you are umhappy with the engine.
How many times do I have to say this?
So I will say it again.
Kevin If you are unhappy with the engine I will refund your money.
Just put the engine on a pallet.
I will make arrangement to have the trucking company pick up the engine.
Upon arrival here and inspection of the engine to insure it is returned in a resaleable condition your money will be refunded.
Again I will refund your money if you are unhappy with the engine.
Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2005, 06:08 AM
Jake picked SDS for the same reason I did....simple.
I heard many a guy say "yuck..no data-logging...no bells... no whistles"
Who cares...does it run the engine and do it well?
yep!
Is it simple to program?
yep!
Do they have good tech support? Do they answer your questions? do they stand 100% behind their product???
yep, yep and yep!
Sold.
Two years on SDS and I'm very happy with it.
Posted by: BigOlJohnson Jun 6 2005, 12:37 PM
"Im an asshole - and ive been edited"
Don
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 6 2005, 12:48 PM
| QUOTE (BigOlJohnson @ Jun 6 2005, 11:37 AM) |
| "Im an asshole - and ive been edited" Don |
Don take your pointless shit elsewhere.
AA
-this thread is closed-
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