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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Engine not turning
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 2 2017, 12:24 PM
My car sat in the rain overnight a month ago and I am pretty sure SOME water got into the carbs. At the time it barely turned over and would not start.
Now it will not turn over at all. Pulled the plugs, jacked up one wheel, and tried to get it to move by turning the wheel. No luck. Could the water that got in have frozen it due to rust? Did I possibly create a hydro lock situation and break something? How can I break it loose?
Posted by: cgnj Apr 2 2017, 12:29 PM
My car sat in the rain overnight a month ago and I am pretty sure SOME water got into the carbs. At the time it barely turned over and would not start.
Now it will not turn over at all. Pulled the plugs, jacked up one wheel, and tried to get it to move by turning the wheel. No luck. Could the water that got in have frozen it due to rust? Did I possibly create a hydro lock situation and break something? How can I break it loose?
Happened to me three years ago. I'm OCD. Dropped motor, pulled heads. Lots of Marvel Mystery oil. & gentle crank turning. Rebuilt carbs. I see rain hats and tray in your future.
Carlos
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 2 2017, 12:33 PM
My car sat in the rain overnight a month ago and I am pretty sure SOME water got into the carbs. At the time it barely turned over and would not start.
Now it will not turn over at all. Pulled the plugs, jacked up one wheel, and tried to get it to move by turning the wheel. No luck. Could the water that got in have frozen it due to rust? Did I possibly create a hydro lock situation and break something? How can I break it loose?
Happened to me three years ago. I'm OCD. Dropped motor, pulled heads. Lots of Marvel Mystery oil. & gentle crank turning. Rebuilt carbs. I see rain hats and tray in your future.
Carlos
I did not even have air filters on it.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 2 2017, 12:34 PM
Does a stock starter have enough torque to break something in the engine if there was water in a cylinder?
Posted by: porschetub Apr 2 2017, 01:55 PM
Get on to it ASAP,remove plugs and put penetrant or diesel(lots )down the plug holes and let it soak then try turning it over for a while to blow the water out....hopefully your cylinder bores haven't rusted to much.
If you get it started check the oil soon after you get it going,I would suggest you change it anyway.
Good luck.
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Apr 2 2017, 02:16 PM
No, the stock starter won't overcome a hydro-locked motor. Where guys get in trouble is when they roll it down a hill and pop the clutch.
The big problem is when you've got water in the combustion chamber and the engine turns over and both valves close.
Pull the plugs and look in the spark plug hole. If you can see water, suck it out one way or another (mechanical device preferred).
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 2 2017, 02:38 PM
No, the stock starter won't overcome a hydro-locked motor. Where guys get in trouble is when they roll it down a hill and pop the clutch.
The big problem is when you've got water in the combustion chamber and the engine turns over and both valves close.
Pull the plugs and look in the spark plug hole. If you can see water, suck it out one way or another (mechanical device preferred).
It has been a few months since I first had the issue. At the time, I thought it was just my crappy old battery. Pushed it into the garage and ignored it. It is only now with a new battery that I am realizing i have a bigger issue.
Just pulled the starter, to see if that was the culprit. Still cannot turn it by hand.
Posted by: rgalla9146 Apr 2 2017, 03:15 PM
No, the stock starter won't overcome a hydro-locked motor. Where guys get in trouble is when they roll it down a hill and pop the clutch.
The big problem is when you've got water in the combustion chamber and the engine turns over and both valves close.
Pull the plugs and look in the spark plug hole. If you can see water, suck it out one way or another (mechanical device preferred).
It has been a few months since I first had the issue. At the time, I thought it was just my crappy old battery. Pushed it into the garage and ignored it. It is only now with a new battery that I am realizing i have a bigger issue.
Just pulled the starter, to see if that was the culprit. Still cannot turn it by hand.
Plugs out.... blow out water w/ compressed air.....feed Marvel Mystery into each cylinder...... Select 1st gear... rock car back and forth on flat ground....not
too forceful !.......hope you get lucky
Oh ! one more thing..... remove the alt belt..... they can rust onto the pulleys and stop the engine from turning too
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 2 2017, 03:44 PM
What it really feels like is the time I had a bearing seized on me and it wouldn't turn over. But that was on the previous build this engines been pretty solid
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Apr 2 2017, 04:18 PM
What it really feels like is the time I had a bearing seized on me and it wouldn't turn over. But that was on the previous build this engines been pretty solid
Ohhh. That's not good. If you're engine was hydro-locked, and you have a cylinder that's full of water, you'll probably end up with a broken ring as well.
What Rory said about the MMO is the best approach at this point.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 2 2017, 04:37 PM
[quote name='Perry Kiehl' date='Apr 2 2017, 03:18 PM' post='2471121']
[quote name='jeffdon' post='2471109' date='Apr 2 2017, 01:44 PM']
What it really feels like is the time I had a bearing seized on me and it wouldn't turn over. But that was on the previous build this engines been pretty solid
[/quote]
Ohhh. That's not good. If you're engine was hydro-locked, and you have a cylinder that's full of water, you'll probably end up with a broken ring as well.
What Rory said about the MMO is the best approach at this point.
Jeez, how much water could have gotten in there?
Posted by: r_towle Apr 2 2017, 06:47 PM
Did you drain the oil?
Any water in the oil.?
How long did it sit with water in it?
Posted by: cgnj Apr 2 2017, 07:22 PM
It's no longer hydro locked, think about it. The water has had more than enough time to drop into the sump thru your ring gaps. Most likely one or more pistons have rings frozen to bore. You can recover., I dropped the motor and pulled the heads, but you may not have to go this far based on my experience. All steps others and I have mentioned. You want to free the rings not break them. I did the marvel, jerk the crank till I freed up the rings. forget the starter, avoid extra work, do it by hand. Put t back together, leak down better than 94%, I was good to go. Don't try to rush it. Or you can go overboard like I did, and add an extra weekend of work. I did rebuild my carbs while I was waiting. My car was sitting like this for 3-6 months before I realize I screwed up. I was able to recover and learned a lesson. Take advantage of my mistake.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 2 2017, 10:56 PM
Did you drain the oil?
Any water in the oil.?
How long did it sit with water in it?
Nope.
Nope.
And it sat for a few months.
Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 2 2017, 11:22 PM
Get the water out, pull the plugs and fill the cylinders with diesel, 3-4 days it will free up.
Spin the motor no plugs to get the diesel out.
If you have no water or diesel in the oil replace plugs and see if it will fire up.
If it does likely you lucked out, change the oil and try to get it running proper.
Then don't do that again. 
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 09:23 AM
Yesterday, I shot some engine oil into the holes. Will try today to see if it turns today.
Posted by: Mikey914 Apr 3 2017, 09:45 AM
Seafoam is another product that is used in this application.
At this point. You are looking at a teardown. You can try to get it running and hopefully it will not have enough damage be an issue. get it running put a long weekend of driving nearby on it and see how she runs (PS pay up AAA just incase)
It is a Volkswagen and there are stories of this happening and it being fine. The real issue I can see is how much water was in the bottom, Will the cam bearings be ok ? That could be the problem
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 09:56 AM
Seafoam is another product that is used in this application.
At this point. You are looking at a teardown. You can try to get it running and hopefully it will not have enough damage be an issue. get it running put a long weekend of driving nearby on it and see how she runs (PS pay up AAA just incase)
It is a Volkswagen and there are stories of this happening and it being fine. The real issue I can see is how much water was in the bottom, Will the cam bearings be ok ? That could be the problem
I gotta think that between the rain hitting the screen in the decklid, and the fact that the throat of the carbs is only about 40mm, there could not be all that much. As of this morning, its not turning by hand. I think I am going to drop the engine today. Ugh.
Posted by: Mikey914 Apr 3 2017, 10:00 AM
Before you drop the motor do drain it. If there isn't much water there you will not need to pull the motor.
Are you not feeling lucky?
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 10:08 AM
Before you drop the motor do drain it. If there isn't much water there you will not need to pull the motor.
Are you not feeling lucky?
No, not feeling lucky. I will drain it first. My gut is telling me that I broke a ring. AA pistons and cylinders. I have a hard time thinking I broke anything bigger, like a rod. Or bearing.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 10:44 AM
Drained oil. No water visible.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 11:21 AM
Well, its NOT the alternator.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 12:20 PM
Dribble of water out of the heat exchangers when i pulled them. Could be old condensation I guess?
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 03:01 PM
Engine is out. Of course, still not turning. Time to tear off the heads.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 04:37 PM
I have two cylinders with rust in them. One pretty bad. Wonder if I can hone these? Also, How the hell am I going to get my cylinders off the pistons with the rust? Here is a pic of the worst one.
Posted by: cuddyk Apr 3 2017, 04:57 PM
Sorry to see this.
Leave some penetrating oil on it for a day or so. And/or carefully use a flat instrument and a hammer to gently but firmly push/tap the cylinder jugs away from the case. My guess is that you'll probably need new pistons and cylinders anyway. Good luck!
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 05:12 PM
Sorry to see this.
Leave some penetrating oil on it for a day or so. And/or carefully use a flat instrument and a hammer to gently but firmly push/tap the cylinder jugs away from the case. My guess is that you'll probably need new pistons and cylinders anyway. Good luck!
Don't think a honing would do it?
Posted by: cuddyk Apr 3 2017, 05:36 PM
Tough to tell before you free the jugs 
. But the pic looks as if there will be pitting under that rust. And if the cylinders have never been replaced, there's a good chance they're scored after 40+ years.
Posted by: Mikey914 Apr 3 2017, 07:08 PM
Pretty sure there will be some pitting. Good news it's a VW not a 911, so you have fewer new ones to buy and they are less expensive.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 09:24 PM
Tough to tell before you free the jugs
. But the pic looks as if there will be pitting under that rust. And if the cylinders have never been replaced, there's a good chance they're scored after 40+ years.New pistons and cylinders. ONly about 4 years on them.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 09:25 PM
Pretty sure there will be some pitting. Good news it's a VW not a 911, so you have fewer new ones to buy and they are less expensive.
Can you get less than a set?
Posted by: porschetub Apr 3 2017, 09:39 PM
Well not sure here but think that water has been in there a while longer than mentioned and no it won't hone out ,best to replace the whole lot and start a fresh.
We all make mistakes so try to look on the positive side ok.
Posted by: porschetub Apr 3 2017, 09:43 PM
Get the water out, pull the plugs and fill the cylinders with diesel, 3-4 days it will free up.
Spin the motor no plugs to get the diesel out.
If you have no water or diesel in the oil replace plugs and see if it will fire up.
If it does likely you lucked out, change the oil and try to get it running proper.
Then don't do that again.
Funny I said that
.Posted by: jeffdon Apr 3 2017, 09:45 PM
Well not sure here but think that water has been in there a while longer than mentioned and no it won't hone out ,best to replace the whole lot and start a fresh.
We all make mistakes so try to look on the positive side ok.
Come to think of it, it was probably more like 3 months. I'm a dumbshit.
Posted by: falcor75 Apr 3 2017, 10:19 PM
Soeak with penetrating oil
Scrape/blow away loose flakes
Slowly heat the cylinder and tap the piston with the wooden handle of a hammer or similar.... rinse and repeat.....
Posted by: r_towle Apr 3 2017, 11:46 PM
There was water in the oil it did not disappear.
Suck, but you can get it back .
While you are in there, DPR sells striker cranks and larger Pistons and cylinders are a click away.....just sayin.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 09:29 AM
There was water in the oil it did not disappear.
Suck, but you can get it back .
While you are in there, DPR sells striker cranks and larger Pistons and cylinders are a click away.....just sayin.
Still thinking boring out my old stock cylinders might be an option. I am on a super tight budget.
Posted by: The Cabinetmaker Apr 4 2017, 10:07 AM
If they are oem cylinders, bore them out and buy new pistons and rings.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 10:16 AM
If they are oem cylinders, bore them out and buy new pistons and rings.
Yeah. Perhaps my pistons are ok?
Posted by: cgnj Apr 4 2017, 10:25 AM
Hi,
Probably toast from the pic. Still, if you have compressor the cheap HF leakdown tool will be enough to tell you if you can save it. Till leakdown everything is a swag.
Not certain of the value of reboring cylinders vs.buying new from ems. He sent me the material data sheets for his 96 mm jugs. At the time they were not AA and he was getting them cast in the US. Worth an email to see if that's still the case.
Try to avoid becoming the next Dirk Wright.
Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 4 2017, 10:30 AM
First - Hydrolock - I always put the car in 5th gear and push it backward. 
Second - Time for a rebuild.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 10:40 AM
I do not think I hydrolocked it. It was not starting due to a weak battery, pretty sure. I think its a case of rusted rings/cylinders. Soaking with diesel, and tapping the pistons with a block and mallet (not too hard). I have about 3 mm of seperation between the cylinders and case. trying not to pry too much or too hard.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 12:13 PM
Just coaxed what I thought was the worst one off. They all seem to be stubborn.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 02:15 PM
one to go....
Posted by: Puebloswatcop Apr 4 2017, 03:22 PM
Pretty sure there will be some pitting. Good news it's a VW not a 911, so you have fewer new ones to buy and they are less expensive.
Can you get less than a set?
European Motrworks sells individual cylinders and pistons
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 03:30 PM
All off. Phew.
Posted by: Puebloswatcop Apr 4 2017, 03:33 PM
What size engine is it? I might be able to help you out parts wise...for I too know what it is like to be on a tight budget...
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 03:51 PM
What size engine is it? I might be able to help you out parts wise...for I too know what it is like to be on a tight budget...
2056. 96mm cylinders and pistons
Posted by: Puebloswatcop Apr 4 2017, 04:12 PM
What size engine is it? I might be able to help you out parts wise...for I too know what it is like to be on a tight budget...
2056. 96mm cylinders and pistons
Sorry, I have no 2056 parts. In fact am saving for the same. Just thought if it was a stock size I might be able to help you out. I know I just bought a 73 with the same issue. Anyway, good luck and holler if ya need anything. Still have some spare parts that might help you out at some point.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 04:35 PM
What size engine is it? I might be able to help you out parts wise...for I too know what it is like to be on a tight budget...
2056. 96mm cylinders and pistons
Sorry, I have no 2056 parts. In fact am saving for the same. Just thought if it was a stock size I might be able to help you out. I know I just bought a 73 with the same issue. Anyway, good luck and holler if ya need anything. Still have some spare parts that might help you out at some point.
Thanks for offering. I got a stock set of jugs. If the rusty ones are too far gone, I can have them bored. So far, only one of the cylinders looks like its got pitting. Hopping its not so far gone as to be beyond honing out.
The rings, however, seem to be rusted into the grooves. Gonna give them a long diesel soak.
The generosity of 914 people never fails to amaze me. Sniff. Must have dust in my eye all of a sudden.
Posted by: markhoward Apr 4 2017, 04:44 PM
Anybody out there know if its fine to use an ultrasonic cleaner to loosen up the crud? Thought it might help to get things clean after lots of oil soaking. Don't think its a good idea to go very long with ultrasonic part on but the 125 degree dawn water should help loosen things.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 04:53 PM
Anybody out there know if its fine to use an ultrasonic cleaner to loosen up the crud? Thought it might help to get things clean after lots of oil soaking. Don't think its a good idea to go very long with ultrasonic part on but the 125 degree dawn water should help loosen things.
Got an ultrasonic cleaner?
Posted by: markhoward Apr 4 2017, 04:58 PM
sure do. used on my 911 engine build and several greasy things since.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 4 2017, 05:06 PM
sure do. used on my 911 engine build and several greasy things since.
There is rust on the pistons that is caked on. Steel wool is taking it off with some elbow grease. I bet the Ultrasonic would take it off.
Posted by: cuddyk Apr 4 2017, 05:06 PM
Glad you got them all off!
I have a used set of 96mm pistons that I can give you. They would need some cleaning up and new rings. I also have 2 usable jugs. Pm me if you want em....
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 5 2017, 09:19 AM
And now to get the frozen rings off.....
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 5 2017, 09:48 AM
Gotta a question on re-assembling, and what will also need replacing. I am not splitting the case, but I did pull the flywheel.
Stuff I know will need replacing -
Cylinder shims (buggered them in teardown)
Flywheel lock plate.
CV joint gaskets
Scnorr washers for CV's
Rocker cover gaskets
Stuff I am wondering if it can be reused:
Main seal
O-ring on flywheel
I think my push rod tube seals will be fine.
Anything else I should be shopping for?
Posted by: cuddyk Apr 5 2017, 10:14 AM
Since you'll have everything apart, I'd be inclined to replace all seals. Cheap insurance. You can buy a kit that has everything.
http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Victor-Reinz-Engine-Gasket-Set-Parts-PN-R039198009.html
Not that Im a fan of AA, but theirs was the easiest link to find. And the price isn't bad.
Hopefully the water / rust didn't make it down to the crank. Once you have the pistons out, you can look inside and see if you need to split the case. If all looks clean and you don't see any signs of rust or oil leaking around the main seals, you could probably leave those as is. But like I said, cheap peace of mind to replace now. Just my .02...
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 5 2017, 10:23 AM
Since you'll have everything apart, I'd be inclined to replace all seals. Cheap insurance. You can buy a kit that has everything.
http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Victor-Reinz-Engine-Gasket-Set-Parts-PN-R039198009.html
Not that Im a fan of AA, but theirs was the easiest link to find. And the price isn't bad.
Hopefully the water / rust didn't make it down to the crank. Once you have the pistons out, you can look inside and see if you need to split the case. If all looks clean and you don't see any signs of rust or oil leaking around the main seals, you could probably leave those as is. But like I said, cheap peace of mind to replace now. Just my .02...
Good point. Looks ok inside. Some gunk, but I think i will flush it out with a few cans of carb cleaner and call it good.
Posted by: injunmort Apr 5 2017, 06:32 PM
you have the engine torn down that far and your going to reuse pushrod tube seals, crank seal and rear seal. renz gasket kit is about $.40.00, front and rearseal about $30.00. i would
seriously rethink that plan, fwiw. you know the old saying, "never the time or money to do it right, always the time to do it twice. jest sayin'
Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 5 2017, 06:38 PM
you have the engine torn down that far and your going to reuse pushrod tube seals, crank seal and rear seal. renz gasket kit is about $.40.00, front and rearseal about $30.00. i would
seriously rethink that plan, fwiw. you know the old saying, "never the time or money to do it right, always the time to do it twice. jest sayin'
The upside of not replacing the old seals is the rear end of your 914 will never rust.
Posted by: Kansas 914 Apr 5 2017, 06:43 PM
The upside of not replacing the old seals is the rear end of your 914 will never rust.
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Apr 5 2017, 08:32 PM
you have the engine torn down that far and your going to reuse pushrod tube seals, crank seal and rear seal. renz gasket kit is about $.40.00, front and rearseal about $30.00. i would
seriously rethink that plan, fwiw. you know the old saying, "never the time or money to do it right, always the time to do it twice. jest sayin'
The upside of not replacing the old seals is the rear end of your 914 will never rust.
It also gives the bad oil a place to get out.
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 5 2017, 09:47 PM
Yeah, all good thinking.
Posted by: porschetub Apr 6 2017, 12:15 AM
So far current advise suggests a bit of work and that's up there,any other short cuts will leave you most unhappy,problem is that's after the engine is fired again for the first time ......
Posted by: jeffdon Apr 6 2017, 09:06 AM
Ok...new seals all around.
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