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Posted by: Garold Shaffer May 9 2017, 08:48 AM

So I have an early seat belt holster in the classifieds. Question came up if they were only on the drivers side of the early cars or both sides. I believe it was just the driver side, but I have seen a early car with it on both sides, but no sure if the owner did that or it came that way.

Anyone know for sure?

Posted by: Peashooter May 9 2017, 08:56 AM

Maybe not for sure, but my original 1970 914-6 has one, but only on the driver's side.

Posted by: McMark May 9 2017, 08:58 AM

They're aftermarket or dealer installed. Put them wherever you want.

Posted by: mepstein May 9 2017, 10:32 AM

Are you sure?
Both my 71's came with them but no other aftermarket stuff.

Posted by: McMark May 9 2017, 10:53 AM

Am I SURE? No.

SirAndy's six doesn't have any holes in the longs.
My 71 has holes on the driver's side, but I can't see any on the PS, although the seat bottom is in the way, and I'm not pulling up my carpet to check.

I would suspect a factory part would have a part number of some sort embossed on the pieces. But they're devoid of any sort of marking or identification.

Posted by: mepstein May 9 2017, 11:12 AM

Good point.
Mine just came on the driver side. Sort of useless but sort of cool in a 70's way.

Posted by: Racer Chris May 9 2017, 01:20 PM

This has been discussed here before: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101654
I'm pretty sure cars with non-retractable seatbelts, beginning in spring 1970, had them wherever there was a movable seat but not where there was a fixed position seat.
Right now at the shop I have a '72 with them on both sides, a '71 with one on the driver side, and six #1904 that doesn't have one but the carpet is compressed where it goes. I haven't inspected for the 4 holes though.

My factory parts book doesn't have a page that covers the non-retractable USA seatbelts.

Posted by: McMark May 9 2017, 01:26 PM

Good searching Chris. That was the thread I was thinking of...

The number of people with early cars who chimed in on that thread without holes seem to indicate that they were not install at the factory.
And the number of people with early cars who DO have the holes is high enough to seem to indicate that the dealers were installing these.

I suspect that if they were truly aftermarket parts, you would see them occasionally. But the response is greater than 'occasionally', so it's probably dealer installed. Dealers would install parts like these as add-ons to drive up the profit margins. So you see them with increased frequency because they tried to push them onto everyone who bought a 914.

Posted by: SirAndy May 9 2017, 01:35 PM

I'm pretty sure this was a dealer item, not a factory item ...

Posted by: Racer Chris May 9 2017, 02:05 PM

Ed (who worked at auto dealerships since the '70s) doesn't think they were dealer installed.

Posted by: Mike Fitton May 9 2017, 02:10 PM

It was a Porsche part that came with the non-retractable REPA seat belts, some got installed with the belts some didn't. He are some NOS sets I had.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=301030&hl=NOS+seat+belts

Posted by: gms May 9 2017, 02:22 PM

I am sure that they are a FACTORY part, I have an NOS example.
I have seen them on both sides but I cannot confirm that the factory installed them on the passenger side. Every early car I have seen has had them on the driver side

Posted by: gms May 9 2017, 02:32 PM

I believe the part number is 914.803.141.10
I think it was so the seat belt did not interfere with the hand brake

Posted by: SirAndy May 9 2017, 02:46 PM

How early is "early"?

#374 does not have the mounting holes in either long.

Posted by: Cairo94507 May 9 2017, 03:06 PM

All 3 of my Sixes, 2 70's and the '71 had them. I do not believe they were added by the dealer. They were only on the driver's side on all 3 cars BTW.

Posted by: rgalla9146 May 9 2017, 04:08 PM

The idea that they were to prevent interference with the hand brake sounds reasonable.
I think they were an early car thing, pre-retractable belts.
It's a silly design. Was the driver supposed to insert the belt after leaving the car and remove the belt before entering ?
If the buckle is inserted when you are exiting it interferes with your exit.
If it is in place when you enter it interferes with your entry.
Dealer installed ? don't think so. They would have required a mechanic to use a drill.
You think antennas were installed installed randomly ?.....just think of the possibilities with these things ! they would have been all over the place.

Posted by: SirAndy May 9 2017, 05:14 PM

I dis-agree!

There are plenty of early cars with non-retractable belts that do NOT have the holes to mount this part.

Plus, the holes look very much hand-drilled ...

Posted by: johnhora May 9 2017, 05:44 PM

my 70' original 914-6 has one on the driver side....the screws are very short and seem to just go into the carpet...I don't know that they would have been able to get into the metal...it works but keeps pulling out of the original OEM carpet...

Posted by: Tom_T May 9 2017, 06:51 PM

I tried to find a pic of my buddy's OO 71 /4, but none of the pix show the right spot.

PS - The link Racer Chris gave above does have excellent pix of it in place at that post, FYI.

Based on a reliable source from the old days, who is far smarter than am I on these 914 details:

"The seat belt tongue holster was installed on all 914 and 914-6 models from model year 1970 to model year 1972 until 12/31/71. One per car on the driver's side with four 2.9x9.5 lens head screws to secure Factory part number is 91480314110 If you do not have one on your drivers side, your car is not correct!"

If your screws are pulling out, then they're probably either the wrong lenght screws &/or the carpet isn't original, since some after market carpets are a slightly deeper pile/backer material.

My supposition was always since back in the 70's, that they put this "Holster" in to get it away from jamming the folding e-brake, wich became unnecessary when the retractable belts came in.

Cheers!
Tom
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Posted by: SirAndy May 9 2017, 07:11 PM

And how exactly could that be true?


A large portion of those early cars do not have the mounting holes for said holster and on the ones that do have them, the holes look hand-drilled ...

Posted by: Tom_T May 9 2017, 07:16 PM

As I said Andy - confirmed with an old school 914 originality expert. The screw holes could be painted over or filled in in the 45+/- years since.

i.e.: Someone who was around back then, like myself, or George Rud, or my buddy with the bahia 71 - but more even more expert on originality than I & we are!

So poo-poo it if you must, at your own risk!


Tom
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Posted by: SirAndy May 9 2017, 07:45 PM

poo-poo?
Really? How old are we today? 12?


Again, explain to me how this can be when so many early cars do NOT have the holes in the long?

Neither my '70 /4 nor my '70 /6 have holes in the longs and neither of them show any signs of "repair".

And on every single car with holes i have ever seen, they clearly look like they were hand drilled.

And this time, please try to explain this discrepancy without the use of "someone who knew someone was told by someone else that someone somewhere once knew something".

Posted by: pete000 May 9 2017, 10:29 PM

When I had my interior completely out of my early 1970 914-6 #131 I found no holes or evidence of there ever being a holder mounted in my car. The longs are untouched and never painted or repaired.

Posted by: PancakePorsche May 10 2017, 01:04 AM

Just one more opinion here. I have two '70 cars one 4 and one 6 and they both have them on driver side. I use them.

Posted by: euro911 May 10 2017, 01:55 AM

It's been a while since I looked in the '71, but I think I saw a 'holster' in there. I'll double-check tomorrow ...

Posted by: McMark May 10 2017, 06:33 AM

Believe the expert while ignoring irrefutable evidence. That's FAITH. Andy's point remains --- any believable explanation MUST include a reason for all the cars that did not have holes drilled in the long.

Here's a sting of logic for you (sorry, I'm all out of pocket experts):

- If these holsters were factory installed, then the designers of the 914 planned to use them.
- If these holsters were included as a part of the seat belt assembly used as the cars were built and must have been spec'd out when the cars were designed as part of the seat belt assembly.
- If Porsche planned to use these parts all along, why didn't the long stampings include mounting holes? They added holes for vin tags and body plaques in the stampings. Adding holes for the holster would have been included in the long stamping.
- Since there are cars that exist without holes in the longs, the holes were obviously not drilled/cut as part of the long. Therefore 914 designers didn't plan on using them.

Look, it's pretty well accepted that the antenna was a dealer installed option. There's a spec sheet for where to drill the hole. Yet nearly every 914 has an antenna... JUST LIKE THE SEAT BELT HOLSTER.

Posted by: gcrotvik May 10 2017, 07:39 AM

Here's a though. The factory didn't install them in the first production cars as they had not seen an issue with the hand brake (this happens all the time, even with modern cars today, Porsche included). Shortly after the first production run they discovered the issue and resolved it by installing the holster. They (Porsche) then may have notified the dealers that the holster was added to the later production runs and could be added by the dealer if needed/wanted by the owners.

This would explain why some very early cars didn't have them, why some cars that do have the holster look to have the holes "punched" and why some later cars look as if the holes were added at the factory. Someone should ask Gary Emory. He did 356 warranty parts work and worked the parts counter at Chick Iverson in those days. He may know/remember.

Posted by: gms May 10 2017, 08:25 AM

Here is a thought lets put a new top page and have 2 columns
cars with and cars without...Andy?
I think a picture might be in order if you can get one.
I try to be open minded about these things so lets see if the missing holster are an anomaly or a larger portion of the production.

Posted by: gms May 10 2017, 08:33 AM

Many parts installed with screws were drilled at the time of installation.
-The bright work on the windshield frame across from the wing windows
-Rear seal on the targa top.
-Headline bolster on the windshield frame
-Targa bar bolster
-visor clips
on and on

Posted by: Peashooter May 10 2017, 08:40 AM

See what you started Garold?

Posted by: gms May 10 2017, 08:58 AM

914/4 with holster
4702907240
4712903834
4712906019
4712906481
4712906677
4712908542
4712910258

914/6 with holster
914.043.0630
914.043.0655
914.043.0661
914.043.0722
914.043.0945
914.043.1277
914.143.0229

need to check
4702900076
4702905709
914.043.0012
914.043.0795
914.043.1711
914.043.1834

Posted by: mepstein May 10 2017, 09:16 AM

I think Garold's holster is now worth double.

Posted by: mskala May 10 2017, 09:22 AM

I'm sure I stated in the old thread that my car 9140430242 does not have the holes
for these.

I think that maybe the holsters were a mid-year model introduction. My car also does
not have the center open console. I didn't know until last year at Hershey from talking to folks, that the factory didn't put those in until mid-year. I think also the charcoal can is a mid-year thing.

Posted by: Mike Fitton May 10 2017, 09:25 AM

He is a picture of the location of the 4 holes on the driver's side:

Posted by: SirAndy May 10 2017, 10:18 AM

NO holes for holster:

914.043.0374

470.29.12181

Posted by: altitude411 May 10 2017, 10:26 AM

Just checked my six 9140432481... no holes

Posted by: McMark May 10 2017, 10:27 AM

Andys six


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Tom_T May 10 2017, 11:26 AM

Well Mark, if that is SirAndy's -6 supposedly without holes .... I see evidence of at least 2 or 3 of the holes & the outline of where the holster put pressure on the carpet against the paint.

You just undid his claim to no holes! -1!

Your pic of Andy's ---V


Pic of the holes from Mike Fitton's post above & at Racer Chris' linked other topic about this ---v


No so simple a question after 45+/- years, now, is it!!??


Tom
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Posted by: burton73 May 10 2017, 11:31 AM

This was my posting several years back. The holes where very clean and the screws where very small. I am almost positive that the first cars had them when they came from the factory, as my car was the 30th 6 down the line.

It would be too much work to remove the seat and do it. There must have been a jig at the factory as I remember my car has perfect clean holes.

Bob B


914-6 #41 has the 4 holes on the driver’s side only. These are very clean holes. I am sure that there was a drilling jig set up for them. Note: My car had carpet and the part was not there when I got my car, just the holes!


Bob Burton

Posted by: Jasfsmith May 10 2017, 11:49 AM

Add to the list, my 914-6 914.013.1113 has a holster.

Posted by: Tom_T May 10 2017, 11:50 AM

Look folks - I really have no skin in this game - mine being out of the range as an early `73 2L!

I just passed along info from a fellow judge & restorer & 914 expert of some standing, who happened along this topic while visiting our site here, & emailed me with the correct p/n & info. on it's applicability date/MY range.

Greg at post #27 offers why earliest 914s didn't have it,

Glenn at post #29 adds that many 914 part mounting holes were drilled - not punched & to that I will add that my early 73 2L & many other early 1.7 & 2.0 cars had the badge holes for the displacement number drilled - while the 914 badge holes were stamped (displ. holes later on were also stamped up until the 76 decals),

Another member here or on the other linked topic stated that his were only screwed into the carpet - not the wall of the long, so maybe a few where when Hans or Bruno got lazy &/or had one too many at lunch & never bothered to drill holes,

I said that there are also 45+/- years of opportunities for paint/primer build-up, the holes being welded or bondo-ed shut, long material replaced, etc., etc.

Ultimately, I do not give a flying flock what the rest of you with 70-72 914s do or think! .... unless I happen to judge at an event where originality is judged, cuz now I know too! ... REALLY!

You're just shooting the messenger, when I passed along the info.

For those who do care about originality or will show at Parade where it is judged - that judge has seen this topic, passed along the correct info thru me to give to the rest of you as an FYI - so expect to be gigged for it if he's judging your car there or at one of the major AACA, CCCA, etc. shows (like Amelia, Pebble, etc.).

If you plan on challenging the veracity of my judge-buddy's contention that they were correct & needed for originality at the PCA Parade, then you'd best get an official letter from PCNA or PAG to the contrary, because that's the only documentation which will refute or defend it at a PCA Parade Concours. So contact PCNA on it -- not argue with me!!!!

If you're just showing your 914s at local car shows - they won't know, & if you show at PCA's local Regions' & Zones' Concours - well we do NOT judge on originality, & would only gig if it were left loose, dirty, etc. in the prep areas where we do judge.

If it's just your DD - who cares, unless you like the idea of keeping the dang belt from slipping into the e-brake - I know the purpose, cuz my buddy the OO was told by the dealer why it was there, & he told me when I asked what the flock that was years ago!

In closing - do what you want, argue amongst yourselves, whatever all y'all want to do to continue to entertain yourselves.

Over n out!
Tom
///////

Posted by: SirAndy May 10 2017, 11:52 AM

Wut?


What you are looking at is bare metal after soda blasting.

Bare ... Metal ... with ... NO HOLES


If the holes were factory, they would be there. But they aren't.

Posted by: Tom_T May 10 2017, 11:58 AM

PS - if those circled are not holes, then are the dimples in the steel? NO - I never meant that anyone could drill the tiny holster screws thru 19 GA steel without at least pilot holes, but only that ther is some crud in the 2 places circled in red where the holster screws would be, & there appears to be 2 lines at the arrows possibly indicating pressure shadowing from whenre the holster was mounted. Of course I can't see it in person.

Posted by: Tom_T May 10 2017, 12:00 PM

OK - I'm done & dunn wasting my time here .... take the info or ignore it, argue with yourselves, pound sand, whatever ... I really don't care!

I'm taking this thread off of notice so it stops clogging up my mailbox!


Tom
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Posted by: Tom_T May 10 2017, 12:48 PM

One more clarification for those reading here who really care about originality for their car - I would put more weight on those posting here holsters or not from the ORIGINAL OWNERS of the subject 914s - vs. 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners "looking for holes".

BTW - if you CWs don't think the judge in question isn't seeing this specious silliness going on here, here's another clarification which was just sent to me:

"Those screws were so tiny that many did not pierce the rockers but rather just went into the thick loop carpet on the cars. Only with the perlon could one ever see any penetration."

I offer this for the CW's who care, not the still looking for holes.


Tom
///////

Posted by: SirAndy May 10 2017, 01:39 PM

Thank you ...

Posted by: gereed75 May 10 2017, 01:58 PM

Hmmm. Call me #379 and confused. no charcoal canister and uncertain about holes (although I do own an uninstalled holster). Guess I'll have to look closer.

My car had some heavy black loop pile in it of unknown origin (original or not who knows) now long gone.

So what is the consensus on when charcoal canisters came in??

Posted by: euro911 May 10 2017, 02:16 PM

Come on boys and girls ... there's more important stuff to worry and argue about.

This is a January 1971 (-4) build. The original owner ordered it prior to vacationing in Germany, then shipped to California when they returned. I don't know if it was purchased directly from the factory or a dealership though

I'll find out more when I remove the holster to remove the carpet, but it appears this is one of those that was only screwed into the carpet as it isn't very secure

Posted by: McMark May 11 2017, 07:19 AM

WTF!

Tom... I've seen the car in person. In fact I can walk 10 feet and look at it. The fact that you think you can see this car better than I can from 2000 miles away is astonishing.

Truly astonishing. Oh, and can't you're all-seeing-eyes detect that the car's been media blasted? It's bare metal right now.

Posted by: SirAndy May 11 2017, 07:32 PM

The current PET lists 914.803.141.10 as "retaining bar" ...





Attached image(s)

Posted by: fixer34 May 11 2017, 07:41 PM

Might as well jump in...

/6 0826 has holster on driver's side only. I've never looked at the mounting screws.

Posted by: euro911 May 11 2017, 07:51 PM

Deja Vu

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101654&hl=HOLDER

Posted by: Tom_T May 13 2017, 09:44 AM

FYI -

"verb. Poo poo is defined as to dismiss an idea or suggestion. An example of poo poo is when someone invites coworkers to a bar but another person says the idea is no good.
Poo-poo dictionary definition | poo-poo defined - YourDictionary
www.yourdictionary.com/poo-poo"

Very commonly used back in my day, & was/is a common USA colloquialism.

As for how old I was that day? .... 64!

PS - While I realize that this misunderstanding of the term by you may be an ESL or generational problem, it's best to look it up or google it before trying to insult somebody. ;-)


Tom
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Posted by: Garold Shaffer May 13 2017, 11:11 AM

I was just asking a question. For the record I have spoke to a few other Porsche mechanics that were (some still are wrenches) back in the 1970 and they both said yes, the early 914 had the holster from the factory on the drivers side only. Now why some don't who really knows? I know my 70 didn't have one, but it had also changed hands 4-5 times before I owned it. I can't remember if the holes were there when I changed out the carpet and pictures I took at that time don't show the long without carpet.

Posted by: clapeza May 13 2017, 07:43 PM

My '70 -4, 4702911888, mfg date 8/70 has holes on the driver's side. In fact, the screws are still in place! No holster, just screws.

Now that I know my car had one, I kinda want one...

Maybe some enterprising 914-centric manufacturer might start making reproductions!

Posted by: gms May 14 2017, 02:52 PM

I am hijacking this thread to get people to shows us what you 1970-71 car has
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=309960

Posted by: flippa May 14 2017, 09:17 PM

And all this time I thought poo poo was the same as ca ca.


I learn so much lurking around in the garage.

Posted by: flippa May 14 2017, 09:20 PM