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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Master Cylinder Brace
Posted by: Travis Neff May 12 2005, 10:40 PM
I braced up my MC today, Brant had some photos of a brace he made for his race car. I used the leftover brace from the AC condenser on the other car cut it to size and left a 90 degree corner. To that corner piece I welded a small strap - kind of like a T for more surface area to weld to the suspension cross member. Once in place I hose clamped it down then welded the brace to the cross member. Have to be careful and give yourself room to remove the MC later as well as room to put back in the splash pan.
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 12 2005, 10:42 PM
asdf
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 12 2005, 10:42 PM
Geek at work
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Posted by: Aaron Cox May 12 2005, 10:44 PM
looks good....
hope ya dont have a failed MC anytime soon 
Posted by: jonwatts May 12 2005, 10:52 PM
What exactly is the purpose of the hose clamps?
Posted by: Travis Neff May 12 2005, 10:57 PM
M/C is brand new. I should have enough room to get it out if I have to, or pull the pedal cluster from the M/C. A little more work, but no more flexy pedal!
The hose clamps hold the M/C flush with the brace to ensure no movement. If they weren't used it might be ok, but the end of the MC might start rubbing on the brace.
Posted by: Rotary'14 May 12 2005, 11:45 PM
Here's another way of bracing the MC that I saw on GRM's website. It's suppose to prevent the sheetmetal from flexing if your really on the brakes.
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Posted by: ruddyboys May 13 2005, 06:29 AM
I have never noticed any flex there, dam, know I am going to be trying to feel it everytime I drive it. One more thing to worry about.
Posted by: CptTripps May 13 2005, 06:45 AM
That's a really cool idea...
That also reminds me that I need to get a splash pan!
Posted by: brant May 13 2005, 08:34 AM
Nice work Travis,
you'll like it!
brant
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 08:47 AM
You can't feel the MC flex when you put your hand on it when someone pumps the pedal - not even a vibration. In the drivers seat it feels weird to feel hitting the proportioning valve which feels like shorter pedal travel and no mush.
If you are ever bleeding your brakes with the 2 man method, watch your MC as someone pumps the brakes, you'll see what I mean.
Posted by: brant May 13 2005, 09:00 AM
Also,
In the beginning when I tried this (many years ago)...
I was doubtful about the hose clamps really being strong enough.
but if you run it for a while and check underneath, there is no slipping, no sliding, no scratched paint or worn metal. The hose clamps are adequate
Its not a night and day improvement that adds up to big seconds on the track... But every little thing helps.
Posted by: firstknight13 May 13 2005, 09:55 AM
that looks GREAT now every one will want one you should sell the bracket and a print on exact location and cash in on it 
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 09:57 AM
I need a side job anyhow... 
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 01:01 PM
Would there be any interest in purchasing braces? I would change the design a little and use 1/4 of a section of tube that matches the profile of the crosmember, have it an inch or so wide on either side of the brace so you could weld it in and hose clamp to the MC, or if you don't have a welder to hose clamp it to both the crossmember and the MC? Somewhere around $25??
I'd have to make a jig for bending the brace and another to weld the "T". If so, I will jack up the other car for mock up.
Posted by: CptTripps May 13 2005, 01:10 PM
| QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 13 2005, 02:01 PM) |
| Would there be any interest in purchasing braces? I would change the design a little and use 1/4 of a section of tube that matches the profile of the crosmember, have it an inch or so wide on either side of the brace so you could weld it in and hose clamp to the MC, or if you don't have a welder to hose clamp it to both the crossmember and the MC? Somewhere around $25?? I'd have to make a jig for bending the brace and another to weld the "T". If so, I will jack up the other car for mock up. |
I'll take one for $25...
Can I make a few suggestions though? Maybe find a way to make the braces mount so they don't have a chance to slide around...a couple of groovs would work.
Let me know...
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 01:15 PM
Good idea. I have an metal abrasive chop saw so that shouldn't be a problem. Got to get some more gas and materials, give me a week or so and I will post some pics of a finished product and reguage interest.
Anyone know the wall thickness of the crossmember?
I could also try to do a bolt in unit for the aluminum cross member if you went 911 up front, but I would need access to a car with that for fit up.
Posted by: brant May 13 2005, 01:21 PM
Travis,
before you get the final pictures published.. I have some advice!
throw some dirt onto those jackstands (way too shiny and dust free)
that way the people in the know, will realize your 914 expertise by the amount of dust and use that your jackstands show...
you don't want to loose your credibility and have people thing that your car is not spending the pre-requisite years on its stands!
b
Posted by: brant May 13 2005, 01:26 PM
here is what I mean:
(perhaps rust on our jackstands should become kind of the secret handshake of the club?)
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 01:37 PM
Those be the new 6 ton ones, god I love harbor freight (and hate them at the same time). My old ones looked like that, then I put them into my parts washer and they look like new again. Kind of like when you were a kid at the first day of school, couldn't go with all new clothes on.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 04:39 PM
I went out and got the raw materials this afternoon and got a fresh tank of gas for the welder, I traded in my shiney new green one for the fugliest one they had - that should help with the secret 914 club code..
Been playing a bit with cutting the tube stock looks like 1/3 of a circle works best with a flush fit and an inch overhang on each side for welding or clamping to the crossmember. Gotta get some oxy so I can heat and bend the flat stock.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 09:57 PM
OK, prototype is just about done. I used 1/4" flat bar stock which looks a little thick. Instead of bending it was easier to cut and weld at a 45 degree angle. That size is what I used on my initial one, 3/16" might be just right, 1/8" is too flexy. At any rate, your MC is not going to move!
Initial pics, weld or hose clamp to your crossmember and clamp to your MC, Will do notches for hose clamps for extra security.
Tell me what you think - if it is something that you may be interested in - chime in please. I am not asking for promises for purchase, just if you think it is something you may consider trying out. Welds should look better as I progress, and stop drinking beer.
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 09:58 PM
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 09:58 PM
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 09:59 PM
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Posted by: CptTripps May 13 2005, 10:06 PM
Can I buy that one to test? Seriously...I'm up for it.
Posted by: redshift May 13 2005, 10:11 PM
Dood! Great idea! I almost bent the front of the car off when I do something stupid, like trying to make a yellow light 2 minutes away..
M
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 10:15 PM
Shipping and the prototype is yours Doug, as long as you give feedback good, bad, or indifferent. I'd like you to try it with the hose clamps on the crossmember first to see if that is any good, then if good and you like it - glue it on! (weld)
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 11:14 PM
build pics
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 11:15 PM
pics don't work too good with the helmet still on.
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 11:16 PM
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 11:16 PM
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 11:17 PM
whoops that last one was an Andy shot as well as being a little too big - sorry!
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Posted by: 914MF May 14 2005, 09:34 AM
I will buy one. Fabrication looks awesome! 
Posted by: jonwatts May 14 2005, 09:41 AM
That's one bad looking Bic razor. 
Posted by: Bill Shaw May 16 2005, 04:29 PM
Been trying to eliminate pedal flex for a long time and your method seems perfect. Let me know if you're going to make some. I'm in for one!
Posted by: d914 May 16 2005, 06:50 PM
i'm interested
Posted by: michel richard May 16 2005, 06:55 PM
Instead of using hose clamps to tie the bracket to the master cylinder, why not weld another little bracket that would slip under the nuts that tie the m/c to the pedal cluster ?
Posted by: Wild 6 May 16 2005, 07:06 PM
Hi Travis,
Weld me one up for $25 and I'll come by your house and pick it up. That way you can have a local -6 tester.
Andy
Posted by: Travis Neff May 16 2005, 08:02 PM
| QUOTE (michel richard @ May 16 2005, 04:55 PM) |
| Instead of using hose clamps to tie the bracket to the master cylinder, why not weld another little bracket that would slip under the nuts that tie the m/c to the pedal cluster ? |
That would be very strong, especially if you tie the xmember to the MC then to the mounting studs.
However, there is maybe 1 thread going past the nuts that hold the MC/pedal cluster together, it would have to be sheet metal. With that, I am not sure the strength would be worth the effort - but I'll check it out non the less.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 16 2005, 08:09 PM
OK Guys,
I still need to mock up the other car so I can nail my angles on the tang (put back in a pedal cluster and MC). The one I am sending Doug is eyeballed as good as I can (as the my 1st mount is already welded in place on the silver car).
I hope to have some completed by the end of the week. I'll head out and get busy tonight on cutting the tangs. The semi circle mounts are all cut and fitted for a smooth fit to the crossmember. I am good for about 15-20 mounts before I need more materials.
Posted by: TGM May 17 2005, 10:08 AM
I've been waiting for someone to engineer a good MC brace. I'm interested, PM me when available.
T.G.
Posted by: nocones May 17 2005, 10:11 AM
Count me in!
Posted by: Flat VW May 17 2005, 10:50 AM
| QUOTE (TGM @ May 17 2005, 08:08 AM) |
| I've been waiting for someone to engineer a good MC brace. |
If you have ever met Travis you would know the use fo the word "Engineer" in this particular instance, would begin with the smallest "e" anyone has ever seen.
John
Posted by: nebreitling May 17 2005, 11:06 AM
i'm interested. might save me some time...
Posted by: Travis Neff May 17 2005, 11:07 AM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ May 17 2005, 08:50 AM) | ||
If you have ever met Travis you would know the use fo the word "Engineer" in this particular instance, would begin with the smallest "e" anyone has ever seen. John |
Hey, at least I am not suggesting bonding the brace to the MC and crossmember with whet boogers - well, not yet.
Posted by: bryanc May 17 2005, 01:27 PM
| QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 17 2005, 09:07 AM) | ||||
Hey, at least I am not suggesting bonding the brace to the MC and crossmember with whet boogers - well, not yet. |
Whet boogers are way to sensitive to moisture. Try JB Weld.....
Anyway, I really like this idea. When you get into production, let me know and I'm in for one.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 17 2005, 01:28 PM
They are a lick and stick application..
I'll count you in!
Posted by: CptTripps May 18 2005, 09:16 AM
Travis sent me the COOLEST razor today!
When is the brace coming???
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 18 2005, 09:21 AM
Just try and get replacement blades for that!
Posted by: Travis Neff May 19 2005, 10:56 PM
I have about 12 fabbed up. Just a little clean up and a quick coat of paint and the 1st batch should be ready to go.
Posted by: JmuRiz May 20 2005, 08:18 AM
Cool deal, let us know how much etc 
I would think this would be a good idea on my car with Boxster brakes up front, no?
Posted by: CptTripps May 20 2005, 08:25 AM
| QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 19 2005, 11:56 PM) |
| I have about 12 fabbed up. Just a little clean up and a quick coat of paint and the 1st batch should be ready to go. |
I've got a few suggestions...don't ship a bunch yet. Easy mods that'll make it a little better I think.
I'll PM you later.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 20 2005, 11:31 AM
Thanks Doug, let me know what your thinkin.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 21 2005, 05:29 PM
Still waiting for Doug's comments on any modifications. But here is what I have so far. It is either weld in OR Clamp in - so if you need to service your MC it may be a little easier (but if you weld it in there really shouldn't be any trouble removing the MC)
One thing you can easily see on your own car is to watch your MC as someone pumps the brakes, you see that the very end of the MC (closest to the suspension x-member) goes up and down, maybe a touch of in and out. Grab your MC and wiggle it up and down, you will see how much the end of the MC moves - and easily.
The brace where it mounts to the x-member is about a 1/3 circle and is about 4" long, enough room to either clamp or weld. It is very sturdy - I can pick myself off the ground by the brace attached as you see it - no movement that I can see. (I am over 200lbs).
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 21 2005, 05:30 PM
drivers side view, bad shot but you get the picture
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 21 2005, 05:31 PM
Blurry shot
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 21 2005, 05:31 PM
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Posted by: Travis Neff May 21 2005, 05:32 PM
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Posted by: CptTripps May 28 2005, 06:36 AM
Here's a mini-review.
This thing rocks!
Here's a little longer one.
Braking 'feel' is greatly improved. The 'solidness' of the pedal now makes me glad to have a 19mm. You can REALLY get on the brakes now without any flex. I never noticed how much flex was there before. It's really remarkable.
You should all buy one...no, two...one to use, and one to shave with!
Posted by: Travis Neff May 28 2005, 09:09 AM
Thanks for the comments Doug! I have about 26 done, but unloaded 3 already.
I just need to get the clamps in and then I am ready to start getting these things out the door. I found some high vibration hose clamps for the crossmember which you can torque ot a max of 80ft lbs - you wouldn't need to go that tight - but stronger than 23ft lbs for a more standard hose clamp. Should have that before the end of next week.
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