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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Non-OEM Turbo Tie rod
Posted by: MarkG May 13 2005, 11:02 AM
Only 'cheap' thing I used was the non-OEM cheaper turbo tie rod assemblies;
towed car to shop yesterday, they just called- boots are split already AND they cannot be adjusted!! (the rod part will not rotate......like the ball socket end at the rack is non-moveable).....
False economy - I will probably end up buying $189 OEM assemblies AND paying twice for the allgnment job!
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 11:27 AM
I made that mistake as well. However I didn't have the binding problem you describe. The boots cracked at the accordian boot, and after a 2nd alignment the boots on the rod ends cracked as well. Lastly the tie rod end only has a nylock nut rather than the castellated jobbie. At some point I will have to replace the accordian boots and use some Lemforder (sp?) ends. Live, learn and purchase again...
Posted by: bondo May 13 2005, 11:31 AM
I bought a 911 front end that already had turbo tie rods installed. Is there a sure-fire way to tell if I have the good or bad kind? One boot has a small hole, but it looks like it's from rubbing on something.
Posted by: xsboost90 May 13 2005, 11:44 AM
this is the kind of great news i always love to hear. Mine hasnt even hit the road and the rack accordians are kinda crappy like they dont accordian they just bent towards the middle, think i got them to sit correct now but eventually ill have to get the good ones. 
Posted by: Dr Evil May 13 2005, 12:22 PM
Guilty! I bought the cheap set, too. To tell if yours are the crappy ones, check to see if it has a nylock (crappy) nut on the end, vs a castellated nut. Mine disintegrated in about 3 months. The rubber on the ends erroded, and the wrack boots split. Absoleute crap. I didn't experience the siezing so I ended up just buying new wrack boots and tirod ends.
I hope it works out 
Posted by: bondo May 13 2005, 12:32 PM
This castellated nut? Or is there another where it adjusts (covered by the boot in this pic)?
Posted by: MarkG May 13 2005, 12:49 PM
Mine have zero miles and the accordian boots are ripped already....shop is now charging by the hour (as oppossed to the $200 flat rate for the alighnment) to figure out why they arn't adjustable, and they are getting new boots as I type.
Gonna be a $500+ alignment so far...........
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 12:51 PM
That's a castellated nut, you got the gud ones. Castellated nuts have the grooves cut in the nut so you can put a cotter pin in, as well as a hole drilled in the bolt
Posted by: BMartin914 May 13 2005, 01:06 PM
$200 flat rate for the alignment? 
Where did you take that thing? If you aren't setting up for autox do you need a full 4-wheel? I had the Tire Source up in Boulder do a 2 wheel alignment for less that $50 and they know Porsche.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 01:10 PM
I am told the front alignment is academic, very easy. The rears is tough to get in spec, then alignment shims and whatnot. I think I paid 150 for a 4 wheel alignment, and a few bucks for some used shims. That price also included ride height adjustment, well that was what I was initially quoted for, I had it where I wanted it when I brought it in and looked the same when I got it back.
Posted by: MarkG May 13 2005, 01:27 PM
Down here in Gooberville (Colorado Springs) all local Porsche shops had same recomendation: Concours Cars.....same folks who did my Ferrari work.
Very good but Very expensive.....
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 01:38 PM
I lived in the springs for about a year or so, and loved it! Got into so much trouble it was just a good idea to leave state, haHA! Meadow Muffins on a friday night was always entertaining.
Posted by: BMartin914 May 13 2005, 01:50 PM
| QUOTE |
| Down here in Gooberville (Colorado Springs) |
I grew up down there Mark, and ran away as soon as I could!
Posted by: MarkG May 13 2005, 02:12 PM
UPDATE!!! Just got off of phone with shop, problem is the tie rod end will not screw onto the tie rod far enough....it bottoms out too soon, leaving a 1/2" toe out.
He called Porsche, they measured some they had in stock, mine and the OEM ones all have same demensions......
so.......they are going to run a tap down the rod end to see if that helps, only other option is to cut 1/4" off of the rods.....
Any suggestions/ideas????????
Posted by: MarkG May 13 2005, 02:13 PM
| QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 13 2005, 11:38 AM) |
| I lived in the springs for about a year or so, and loved it! Got into so much trouble it was just a good idea to leave state, haHA! Meadow Muffins on a friday night was always entertaining. |
The shop is across Colorado Ave from Meadow Muffins, went there last night after dropping off the car and had a few too many beers!!!!!
Posted by: Dr Evil May 13 2005, 02:16 PM
| QUOTE |
| problem is the tie rod end will not screw onto the tie rod far enough....it bottoms out too soon, leaving a 1/2" toe out. |
This makes no sense to me. If your rods will not screw on enough (making the rod shorter), then you would have toe in. Longer rods = toe in, shorter = toe out. Did you install the spacers that come with the kit? Did they come with the kit? You are supposed to use the spacers provided between the rod and the steering shaft.
Posted by: bondo May 13 2005, 02:22 PM
Could somebody have bent your spindle arm thingie to clear wider wheels?
Posted by: restore2seater May 13 2005, 02:25 PM
| QUOTE (Dr Evil @ May 13 2005, 12:16 PM) | ||
This makes no sense to me. If your rods will not screw on enough (making the rod shorter), then you would have toe in. Longer rods = toe in, shorter = toe out. Did you install the spacers that come with the kit? Did they come with the kit? You are supposed to use the spacers provided between the rod and the steering shaft. |
Toe in not toe out.
Posted by: Borderline May 13 2005, 03:12 PM
I know, I know but I gotta ask...did they center the rack? Is there any available adjustment from the other side?
Posted by: Mueller May 13 2005, 03:48 PM
| QUOTE (BMartin914 @ May 13 2005, 12:06 PM) |
| $200 flat rate for the alignment? Where did you take that thing? If you aren't setting up for autox do you need a full 4-wheel? I had the Tire Source up in Boulder do a 2 wheel alignment for less that $50 and they know Porsche. |
evidently not well enough
it does not matter if it's a Porsche or a Saturn, if all 4 wheels have adjustments, then all 4 "should" be adjusted and or checked....that's like draining only half the oil in your motor during an oil change..........
Posted by: anthony May 13 2005, 03:59 PM
I think some mythology is developing regarding these turbo tie rods.
I've read that there was a bad batch of boots a while back that affected all the turbo tie-rod kits. On the 911 board someone reported recently boots going bad on a set of Lemforder turbo tie-rods.
Posted by: bondo May 13 2005, 04:04 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 13 2005, 02:48 PM) |
| it does not matter if it's a Porsche or a Saturn, if all 4 wheels have adjustments, then all 4 "should" be adjusted and or checked....that's like draining only half the oil in your motor during an oil change.......... |
Yup! And alot of alignment places like to "center" the steering wheel with tie rod adjustmenst only. If it's not close the steering wheel needs to be pulled and put on straight.
But if the alignment guy is trying to tighten the tie rod end on further to eliminate toe-out, he has bigger problems
Posted by: anthony May 13 2005, 04:33 PM
The other thing is that a turbo tie-rod install doesn't require a full re-alignment. All they have to adjust is toe and they shouldn't be charging $200 for that.
Posted by: MarkG May 13 2005, 04:35 PM
all spacers are installed and correct....EXCEPT: LOOOOONG shot, but I just called the shop and they will check it out:
when I installed the rack spacers for bump steer I did them wrong: I didn't lossen the steering column lock nut like in the instructions (which would lift UP the rack), since cross member was out I just put the spacers in when I re-installed the cross member, so the rack was NOT moved but cross member WAS....which would shorten the distance from the tie rods to the A-arm by the space of the thickness of the spacers (I think)...which is exactly how much too short the tie rods are.
If this turns out to be the problem my non-OEM kits STILL has crappy boots.....
Posted by: cametal May 13 2005, 04:51 PM
What if you REMOVE the spacers? This would shorten the overall length of the tie rod assembly. 
Posted by: dmenche914 May 13 2005, 05:33 PM
Anyone that got aftermarket turbo tie rods, please post to the list the supplier, or if the shop bought them for you, please ask the shop about their supplier, and post who supplied them. It will be real helpful information for the rest of us, to know what to avoid.
If some one else installed them, a castle nut does not mean for sure you got the good one, if in the case the shop that installed them pitches the non-stock nyloc, and installs with the correct castle nut and pin.
My Triumph Spitfire uses nylocs on the suspenion parts, including the tie rod ball joint end, so it is not unheard of, but I suspect the the castle nut and pin are a better, and a safer attachment method on this critical part, it could kill you if it fails. On my Triumph, several new nylocs , torqued to specification did loosen up over time, so I make it a habit to check them periodically, Since the 914 is suppossed to have a pin in the castle nut, I think that is the safest thing to do, aftermarket or OEM.
thanks
PS labour rates can vary a good bit depending on locality, and type of shop doing the work.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 13 2005, 05:39 PM
| QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 13 2005, 09:27 AM) |
| Lastly the tie rod end only has a nylock nut rather than the castellated jobbie. At some point I will have to replace the accordian boots and use some Lemforder (sp?) ends. Live, learn and purchase again... |
Every Lemforder or TRW tie rod end and ball joint I've seen in the last 10 years or so has had the nylock nuts and non-drilled stud, with the possible exception of some NOS parts. Cotter pins are old technology, replaced by the much easier to use and better nyloc system. I've done only a few turbo tie rod conversions, and I have yet to see premature boot failure. The picture near the start of this thread appears to have the boot on backwards. Visual trick? Installation error? The Cap'n
Posted by: bondo May 13 2005, 06:21 PM
| QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ May 13 2005, 04:39 PM) |
| The picture near the start of this thread appears to have the boot on backwards. Visual trick? Installation error? The Cap'n |
I had just undone the boot from the rack and slid it down to the end. It's on there right, it's just disconnected and half inside out.
Posted by: jkeyzer May 13 2005, 06:30 PM
| QUOTE (cametal @ May 13 2005, 02:51 PM) |
| What if you REMOVE the spacers? This would shorten the overall length of the tie rod assembly. |
I am pretty sure that if you remove the spacers you can overextend and destroy the steering rack. Look on PP, there are some photos of the carnage.
Posted by: jgiroux67 May 13 2005, 07:12 PM
| QUOTE (jkeyzer @ May 13 2005, 04:30 PM) | ||
I am pretty sure that if you remove the spacers you can overextend and destroy the steering rack. Look on PP, there are some photos of the carnage. |
Does this apply to 911 fronts that have steering arms that are closer to the rack? I've yet to get my turbo tie rods and I would like to know which company to get them from and if I need to use the spacers.
Posted by: Racer Chris May 13 2005, 07:40 PM
| QUOTE (MarkG @ May 13 2005, 06:35 PM) |
| when I installed the rack spacers for bump steer I did them wrong: I didn't lossen the steering column lock nut like in the instructions (which would lift UP the rack), since cross member was out I just put the spacers in when I re-installed the cross member, so the rack was NOT moved but cross member WAS....which would shorten the distance from the tie rods to the A-arm by the space of the thickness of the spacers (I think)...which is exactly how much too short the tie rods are. |
Huh?
The rack spacers don't significantly affect the length of the tie rods. They merely raise the rack a small amount to alter the geometry between the tie rods and the a-arm.
The crossmember position can't change because of your procedure. The way it bolts in place ensures the position never changes. By not loosening the steering column when installing the rack spacers you are probably causing binding somewhere though.
If your tie rods are too long maybe it's because they aren't screwed in far enough at the rack end.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 13 2005, 08:05 PM
| QUOTE (dmenche914 @ May 13 2005, 03:33 PM) |
| If some one else installed them, a castle nut does not mean for sure you got the good one, if in the case the shop that installed them pitches the non-stock nyloc, and installs with the correct castle nut and pin. |
WHAT!!!! So the shop tosses the nylocs, installs the castellated nut, DRILLS THE STUD, and installs a cotter pin? I'll believe it when I see it. Talk about jacking up the labor! That's a REAL hard stud, and most techs wouldn't have the kind of time or drill bits to kluge it up like that. Lemforder and Ate/TRW have to produce parts that meet TUV standards (and they're TOUGH, believe me!), and so do Porsche and all the other German manufacturers (and anybody else that makes cars or parts that are sold in Germany). Half the bling cr*p you see on the roads here would get your car banned from the roads in Germany. If tie rod ends or ball joints with nylocs weren't up to the job, they'd NEVER be sold in Germany, or installed on any car made in Germany. If they come loose, there's another problem, like they weren't torqued properly, or there are some worn parts. The Cap'n
Posted by: V6914 May 13 2005, 10:19 PM
| QUOTE (MarkG @ May 13 2005, 02:35 PM) |
| all spacers are installed and correct....EXCEPT: LOOOOONG shot, but I just called the shop and they will check it out: when I installed the rack spacers for bump steer I did them wrong: I didn't lossen the steering column lock nut like in the instructions (which would lift UP the rack), since cross member was out I just put the spacers in when I re-installed the cross member, so the rack was NOT moved but cross member WAS....which would shorten the distance from the tie rods to the A-arm by the space of the thickness of the spacers (I think)...which is exactly how much too short the tie rods are. If this turns out to be the problem my non-OEM kits STILL has crappy boots..... |
The spacers that are being refered to, are the tie rod spacers, not the Bump Steer spacers for the rack.
Pic, with the spacers, right below the tie rod:
Wrong Pic.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: V6914 May 13 2005, 10:22 PM
Right one:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Travis Neff May 13 2005, 10:32 PM
Need some pics of my shitty ones? 2K miles, 2 alignments and the boots on the rod ends are gone. I agree with the Cap'n about the efforts involved in changing back to a catellated jobbie - but it could just be the nut. Hell we are all nutz, right?
Posted by: Dr Evil May 13 2005, 10:45 PM
Just to make it clear to all who wander, the big washer things (the spacers) go on the rack between the tie rod and the rack as a spacer there. It does not go between the rack and the car. They are not bump stere parts.
I think that Chris is thinking of the bump kit.
| QUOTE |
| The rack spacers don't significantly affect the length of the tie rods. |
They most certainly do, its there job.
| QUOTE |
| They merely raise the rack a small amount to alter the geometry between the tie rods and the a-arm. |
Only if you install them as bump stere components. Look at the fist pic. They are installed properly between the rod and rack (gold).
HTH
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 13 2005, 10:50 PM
yep. big washers in the TTR kit go between the rack and the tie rod. keeps you from over turning the rack 
Posted by: Racer Chris May 14 2005, 05:46 AM
| QUOTE (Dr Evil @ May 14 2005, 12:45 AM) |
| I think that Chris is thinking of the bump kit. |
I'm not the one with a problem. Read what Mark G. wrote and tell him he's got it all wrong.
The washers that are used with Turbo Tie Rods shouldn't be referred to as "rack spacers" IMO.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 14 2005, 08:02 AM
a few things YOU should be asked prior to alignment and corner balance. how much do you weigh? what is the primary, intended use of the car? do you plan on needing an auto cross setup, pretty much a street/highway driver, or 50/50? there is a vast dif on how your car is going to handle. do they ask you to bring in a few alignment shims for the rear? were there any shims left over when they were finnished?
you should recieve a print out of the before and after alignment settings. to include the measured ride height, again, before and after. when Redmond Eurpean did mine and al blose's cars it was not a slap-dash affair. about 2 1/2 hours for each car when all was said and done. "close enough" wasn't good enough at that shop. figure what their normal shop rates are and do the math. if $90 an hour is the nominal charge and you pay $50 for the "works" i doubt you are getting correct caster, camber, toe, and weight on all 4 corners. when your shop is done look under the car and observe the relationship of the arms to the horizon. if the tie rod ends are noticeably higher on the outside corners you may have bump steer in your future and the wear on the inside of your front tires may be noticeable rather quickly.
lossening the retaining bolt on the steering shaft assembly (behind the lower dash/knee pad) allows the rack assem to move up relatively easy while installing the bumpsteer kit. i had a set of the rubber bellows go bad when a set of the lemforder sat around waiting to be installed. a RATHER long time though. paragon had a set to replace the ones that went bad. iirc they were around $15 each.
k
Posted by: shorty01 May 14 2005, 11:20 AM
where did you get these ebay? performance p pelican p tweeks?
Posted by: bondo May 14 2005, 01:49 PM
| QUOTE (shorty01 @ May 14 2005, 10:20 AM) |
| where did you get these ebay? performance p pelican p tweeks? |
That little link at the top of the page that says "club store".
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