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Posted by: guywan914 May 14 2005, 04:25 AM

Has anyone heard of problems with the triton v-8 blowing the plugs out of the heads? I have had two different trucks F-250, E-350 where with no warning the #2 on one and
#3 on the other blew the plugs right out of the head . Ford is no help because the trucks have 56000 and 95000 miles on them. Tech at Ford garage said they developed a special repair for this {Helicoil or Threadsert} and that just sounded like there has been a lot more than just my two trucks.

Posted by: MecGen May 14 2005, 05:25 AM

Hello
You can add me down for one, on #3 cyl.
I use a insert/kit to repair these threds, just hard to get started strait.
I have changed a butload of coils...
Coils are a problem, not blowing out plugs, apart fom me and you ?
I always thought it was the case of beer, while I was changing the plugs
Later
Joe

Posted by: Racer Chris May 14 2005, 05:31 AM

I 've never had a problem with a spark plug in a Ford but I have a Helicoil Kit for repairing T4 spark plug holes without disassembly.

Posted by: joea9146 May 14 2005, 08:16 AM

I have herd this before, Do a google search I am sure u will see lots of hits related to this....

Posted by: Mueller May 14 2005, 11:05 AM

140,000 miles on my '01 5.4 Triton, no problems

Posted by: kafermeister May 15 2005, 09:59 PM

Just hit 70,000 last week on my '01 4.6 Sueprcrew. I haven't heard of this before but then again, I don't hang out on any Ford boards. guywan914, have the plugs been changed on your trucks at least one time prior to this failure? I seem to remember some nonsense about 100k mile plugs. I wonder if having the old plugs longer than what we used to do in the old days plays a factor.

R

Posted by: Mueller May 15 2005, 10:11 PM

QUOTE

I seem to remember some nonsense about 100k mile plugs

I didn't change my plugs until I had 103K miles on the truck, plugs looked halfway decent.....

Posted by: bd1308 May 15 2005, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ May 14 2005, 05:31 AM)

I 've never had a problem with a spark plug in a Ford but I have a Helicoil Kit for repairing T4 spark plug holes without disassembly.

pm me with details, this will save me lots...also need some helicoil or inserts for my exhaust studs on the heads....thx

Posted by: kafermeister May 15 2005, 10:53 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 16 2005, 12:11 AM)

QUOTE I seem to remember some nonsense about 100k mile plugs I didn't change my plugs until I had 103K miles on the truck, plugs looked halfway decent.....

That's good to hear Mike. I had planned to change mine prior to the 100k mark but it's good to know I may be ok if I dont' get arround to it before then.

Posted by: Maltese Falcon May 15 2005, 11:20 PM

coil packs YES on the '99...plugs not an issue. The '05 has a noisy rear end (3:73 lsd) going in for warranty, no plug problems. We will see if the Roush blower yanks some plugs out

Posted by: muddboy May 15 2005, 11:25 PM

Its bound to happen to all of them.... my last job was next to a Ford dealer, and I heard my share of 'em. Now at my current shop we do mostly mustangs but a few trucks. The automotive repair industry has come up with many fixes for this problem. The repair is simple if you can get the right parts, the problem is that ford went and made a really bad design for the plug and normal "heli-coil" and "timeserts" wont work even ones made for "sparkplugs". If your going to just repair the one then you have to use one that works with the normal oem sparkplug. Or what we do is repair all of them with the timesert style and use another redily available plug (champion R9YC *performance plug*).

Posted by: guywan914 May 17 2005, 06:29 PM

The plugs on the two trucks have never been changed, although the trucks do get regular maintaince at the local Ford dealer. Maltese Falcon I have heard that the head design was changed for 2005[we have one F-250 of that vintage], but also know of one Lighting that the guy had a large supercharger on and he has blown out three.

Posted by: Mueller May 17 2005, 06:40 PM

QUOTE (Maltese Falcon @ May 15 2005, 10:20 PM)

The '05 has a noisy rear end (3:73 lsd) going in for warranty, no plug problems.

only warrenty related item I took my truck back to Ford was for the pinion bearings in the rear diff (same specs as yours)....truck had 95K miles on it at the time......luckly we had the extended warr., otherwise it would have cost $1300...ouch....

Posted by: brer May 17 2005, 06:43 PM

if you change them yourself, and not torque them right then they can start to unwind and eventually blow out.

I have done this.

Posted by: Steve May 17 2005, 10:31 PM

I had a Ford Expedition with a 4.6liter V8 in it.
It also ejected a spark plug.
The spark plugs were never changed in my expedition and were installed by the factory.
This is a common problem thats not covered by the extended warrranty.
Go to google and type in ford expedition blowing spark plugs.
You will be surprised how many people got screwed by the junk they produce.
Its also amazing how they don't stand behind there products.
I quickly traded my POS for a Toyota Sequoia.

Posted by: rdauenhauer Dec 22 2014, 04:02 PM

So my 05 F150 w/Triton 5.4 has had a problem for a bit that originally thought was a trans going south, (Bucking at low RPM steady state increase in throttle) but upon investigation was determined to be a bad coil or coils.
So I milked it for a few K miles as I knew it was near time to do the 100K plug replacement routine & fugured Id replace the coils at same time.
Decided to do it over this winters break, followed all the suggested procedures to avoid breaking the danm things bit NOOOOOooooo, 1st one tried SNAP.



this is gonna be a long day or two.

Posted by: Rand Dec 22 2014, 06:48 PM

Wow, blast from the past. Remember bd1308? Where is Britt these days? Anyone know? Sorry Rich, you drug it up. ;p

Posted by: 76-914 Dec 22 2014, 06:50 PM

Common problem. My mechanic charged me $300 including the tow charge. Don't go to Ford. They include the charge for removing and lifting the body off the frame to access (on vans). The frigging heads only have 4 threads for the plugs.

Posted by: r_towle Dec 22 2014, 06:51 PM

If you had never taken out the plugs, they would have stayed in.

The issue, from what my son has told me....and he has fixed quite a few, is when changing the plugs, this can loosen the threaded insert which then allows the plugs to blow out, sometimes damaging the hood.

There is a special tool to change the plugs.
It comes in a kit with a special tool to fix the problem of blown out plugs.

Obviously it happens a lot considering they make tools for this.

Posted by: Rand Dec 22 2014, 06:56 PM

Rich, what's that tool? I mean, plugs have threads. What does the tool do? I could see some sort of de-sticking penetration solution first, but... A special tool to unscrew a plug? Yeah, that's what the dealer is selling.

Posted by: Rand Dec 22 2014, 06:58 PM

Britt Dodd, pick up the red phone. Hello, bd1308, we want to hear from you.

Long gone I'm sure. But hopefully will check in before Alpha434.

Posted by: r_towle Dec 22 2014, 07:02 PM

He is a mechanic at an Indy shop and we happen to have lots of ford trucks around here.

He tells me that you break off the top of the plug and stick this special tool inside the middle of the plug and pull it out.

Not trying to get into a pissing match with you cause we all know that when you are right, you are right, and when you are wrong, you are still right...but we all love that about you.

Apparently this is such a normal and no big deal kind of issue that your local snap on or mac tool guy carries this tool set on the truck...

No ide.

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 22 2014, 07:16 PM

Holy mother of 10 year old thread ...

Posted by: messix Dec 22 2014, 07:47 PM

I talk to Alphy on F/B all the time !

Posted by: Rand Dec 22 2014, 07:50 PM

Lol. Like I said, where's Britt when you need him?

No Rich, I was curious. Of course I'm right when I'm right. Wrong more often. No interest in a pissing match. Really? I bet I drink more water, so look out.

Posted by: Rand Dec 22 2014, 07:51 PM

Really Troy? Get him to pitch in some advice here. Rich wants a pissing match.

Posted by: messix Dec 22 2014, 07:54 PM

naw, he's a good kid.

he's settled into domestic life with a girl friend [NOT his sister lol] and has plenty of work. he is still doing fab and machining.

Posted by: Rand Dec 22 2014, 07:56 PM

I know. Good and wacky. I miss him here. Lol...sister...oy memories.

Posted by: messix Dec 22 2014, 07:59 PM

all true here.

our fleet mechanic had to buy this tool and had about 3-4 trucks to do a year for this.

a coworker had a plug blow out 300 miles from home while towing his camper. had to leave to be repaired. cab had to be lifted because repair shop didn't have the ford tool at the time.

I heard the v10 has the same problem.

Posted by: messix Dec 22 2014, 08:00 PM

lol

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 22 2014, 08:35 PM

I just had to do the phasers! $ 1800.00.

http://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-repair-guide-5-4-cam-phaser-tick-knock-sound-141266/

And here's why the spark plugs break off. The lower section builds up with Carbon and causes the plug to shear off when you try to remove it. They make a tool to remove the long end.



Now my 4wd is acting up .

Posted by: Rand Dec 22 2014, 08:45 PM

Outsch. Thanks for the post Rick, now we can see why it's not just a typical tough extraction. What a pain.

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 22 2014, 09:16 PM

Ya, If the tool doesn't work you get to pull the head.

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 22 2014, 09:41 PM

Having worked on the modular Fords for quite some time before joining the World, I've seen this a bunch. Rick is definitely on point regarding the primary cause of the issue (which funny enough is why so many 914s have Time-Serted spark plug holes too). On the other hand, Ford has never addressed why some trucks/cars simply SPIT the plug out, even without them ever being changed. I think it's a combination of not enough thread depth, inferior castings, vehicle abuse in some cases and lack of maintenance.

I've had a Mustang and now an older F-150 with the same motor. While the problem is more common with the 5.4s than the 4.6s, they are essentially the same thing. My solution is to ignore Ford's stupid 100K mile plug change interval and do them at 30-40K anyways. Use Motorcraft copper plugs and keep it tuned up well. If it's running rich and throws a CEL, you're only asking for more trouble with added carbon deposits. The rest is just luck I think.

Also - if you pull the head for service, do yourself a favor and pull the whole timing cover off as well. Change the timing chain tensioners and nylon guides. While the chain will last the life of the vehicle, the guides will definitely wear about before 200K miles. Depending on how often the oil is changed, the tensioners can cause problems too. Summit Racing makes a great kit for all of it for less than $250 if I remember. Also might as well do the valve stem seals for the $20 in parts while it's out - they go bad around 150K.

Posted by: rdauenhauer Dec 22 2014, 10:07 PM

George covered it but the tool is to extract the plugs after being broken off in the head~! Its a multi part deal first you push the porcelain remaining in the end stuck in the head DOWN further untill its stopped by the electrode. this provides enough space to uses a hardened threaded EZ-out type rod to cut into the top of the shell so it can be levered out.

F'n joy

The tool is made by Lyle, Ive already got it Im just pissed at this situation ...

Posted by: messix Dec 22 2014, 10:26 PM

shoulda bought gm

it's a deliberate tactic by ford to bill you thousands of dollars for a repair to designed flaw in the engine.

wait for your intermittent wipers to fail and even when turned off runs the slow sweep. could be the multi switch [$300] or the it could be the wiper motor [$400]

Posted by: carr914 Dec 23 2014, 05:34 AM

There are 2 different problems here.

#1. Early 5.4 Tritons with 2 Valve Heads can spit out a Plug - not enough Thread

#2. 2003 - 3 Valve Heads that Plugs break when doing a change. It Carbon build up related

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 23 2014, 07:17 AM

two different problems that can be related in some cases. But the 4.6s have been known to do it as well, however the 5.4s are notorious for it.

Posted by: 6freak Dec 23 2014, 07:25 AM

CUMMINS ... Problem solved

Posted by: RobW Dec 23 2014, 07:34 AM

We are running a 5.4 triton in a 99 gold expedition. At about 165k. Just changing oil regularly. We got it for free about 4 years ago and have enjoyed it. It's a DNR car though. Little things break and leak and we just agree to run it into the ground.

Posted by: carr914 Dec 23 2014, 07:58 AM

But it seems that the early 5.4s (97-99) blow out plugs more frequently. Model Year 2000-01 rarely have it. A Plug could break, but that would be rare and usually mechanic error

when they went to the 3 Valve Head, the Plug was much longer (see Rick's pic). These are the ones that break, as carbon builds up at the base & threads where the Plug comes through the head

Posted by: Steve Dec 23 2014, 10:55 AM

It's all over the Internet and consumer reports. My Expedition plugs were never changed and still ejected from the motor. The dealer would not cover it with the extended warranty. We paid a mechanic to install a helicoil and traded it in for a used Toyota Sequoia. See my earlier post from 10 years ago. POS!!!! The Toyota now has 200k miles on it, with zero issues over the years.

Posted by: Maltese Falcon Dec 23 2014, 03:14 PM

When I first heard about this problem on the F150 forums, I started having my plugs checked for proper torque once a year. I also have the plugs changed every 2 years. My original set of plugs were replaced at 30,000 miles, when I supercharged the engine. I think fresh plug changes help keep the gremlins away.
Marty

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 23 2014, 08:54 PM

Marty - love that suggestion. That's what I tell people when I work on 5.4s and even 4.6s. Spend the few bucks to change the plugs every 30-40k and torque the spark plugs to spec every year. And stay away from anti-seize, at least on these particular heads.

Posted by: rdauenhauer Dec 27 2014, 05:47 PM

George, that suggestion is due to the propensity to spit out the plugs?
I was just getting back to finishing this project post all the holiday activities.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 28 2014, 10:56 AM

Hey Rich,
Wow, glad you got that puppy out! My suggestion to stay away from anti-seize is basically an echo to Marty's thoughts. The goal is to keep the plugs from loosening up over time. Anti-seize would, in theory, exacerbate the problem - and spark plug torque values are "dry" torque values. That is, they were calculated without the use of lubricant in mind. Adding anti-seize, or even oil would theoretically increase the torque necessary to achieve the same "hold", if you know what I mean. That's why one should never apply oil or lubricant to lug nuts unless you're taking them OFF, not putting them back on.

You shouldn't need anti-seize anyway on aluminum heads if you change the plugs at the intervals we're talking about here - 30-40K miles.

Posted by: r_towle Dec 28 2014, 03:42 PM

I think there are two issues here, one is plugs that blow out of the head, isolated to specific heads.
The other is the carbon build up on the inside part of the plug which makes it needed to actually break the plug and use that tool above to extract it.

Rich

Posted by: carr914 Dec 28 2014, 05:13 PM

Yes

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 28 2014, 10:41 PM

Yes. The later three valve heads are the ones more prone to breaking off. What we we're talking about were best management practices for all modular Ford engines

Posted by: r_towle Dec 28 2014, 11:23 PM

Sorry, the whole thing seems as stupid as when my son first told me about it.
I am a ford guy at heart, but damn.
There must be ten different manufacturers of aluminum heads for the SBC.
None of them have a stupid design flaw that makes you break a plug just to change it.

When I asked my son what happens to the pieces of broken plug that fall into the combustion chamber....the pieces you can't fish out, he shrugged.

Just a stupid design.
Rich

Posted by: rdauenhauer Dec 29 2014, 01:59 AM

Im not going to disagree with you & I had the same question,
before I tore into this I did a fair amount of searching to answer that exact question. This is what I found:
Turns out the Lyle tool is supposed to be "gauged" to push the porcelain remnant down to a point where the extractor tool can get a bite on the shell, while not so far that the ground strap wont captures it.
Yes some small fragments may fall into the chamber but using a vacuum and compressed air you should be able to remove any significant bits.
Anything remaining will pass through the exhaust w/o damage.
I say supposed to because I recognized that even among Motocraft plugs (OE) of the same model, the shell design was slightly different.
Meaning that instead of stopping the porcelain at the ground strap it would push it in, to the point of breaking it (the strap).
Concerning.... while the insulator material might powder in the combustion chamber, if any significant piece of that strap broke off & was unable to be removed....it might do some damage.