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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ clutch problems - SOLVED
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 1 2017, 11:44 AM
I'm reposting my question from yesterday, which was poorly received. In hindsight I should have just asked the question and skipped the degree of detail and lame attempts at humor. Wish delete was an option.
Two clutch-related problems: clutch pedal feel that gets "notchy" or, for lack of a better term, "not smooth" as the engine warms, and also judder or grabbing from take-off in first (also gets worse as engine warms).
I do not know my way around a clutch or a transmission. The one installed was put in by the engine rebuilder and sat for 5 years.
Vehicle has new pressure plate, friction disk, TOB, Gemo cable, rebuilt pedal cluster. Just fixed an input shaft leak, drove about 100 miles on it. Seems like that could explain the grabbing but not the worsening notchiness, which is still present even when engine is off, warm, and has been present since Mile 0.
I've ordered a clutch kit from PP and will probably just replace the whole thing, but what specifically should I be looking for in terms of faults?
Thanks. Long time lurker but rare poster. Greatly appreciate the World.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 1 2017, 06:52 PM
Who rebuilt the pedal cluster? Any idea what kind of roll pin was used in the cluster? The roll pin that is commonly available in the bronze bushing kits is not really up to the job. A spiral pin, or at the very least a full-circle pin, should be used. The weaker one can fail and allow the pedal to move on the shaft, resulting in all kinds of misbehavior.
The shudder in 1st gear is likely a clutch/flywheel/pressure plate problem. If you don't know what you're looking at, take the bits to a good machine shop and ask if they're overheated or otherwise trashed.
Was your flywheel cut before you installed it? If so, it could be that only the friction surface was cut and now there isn't enough clamping force for initial acceleration. Generally, all three surfaces of the flywheel should be cut by the same amount (friction surface, pressure plate mounting surface, flywheel bolt clamping surface) to maintain proper geometry so you get good clamping and don't have the clutch disk hitting the flywheel mounting bolt heads.
Disconnect the clutch cable from both ends. Does it move smoothly? If not, there is probably something wrong with the cable, the pulley on the trans, or the clutch tube in the center tunnel.
--DD
Posted by: Travis Neff Jul 1 2017, 07:05 PM
You may still have a leak on the input shaft Or did you recently fix the leak - after the new clutch? If the clutch disk is saturated with oil it will need to be replaced. I highly doubt you will need to replace your pressure plate. Post pics when you get the existing one out.
That's too bad about your first post getting dumped on.
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 2 2017, 07:33 AM
[quote name='Dave_Darling' date='Jul 1 2017, 05:52 PM' post='2502209']
Who rebuilt the pedal cluster?
Bdstone. Its a good thought but I doubt it's the cluster b/c it is smooth cold, just gets unpleasant warm and hot. Also because Bruce rebuilt it. 
I have an email out to the engine builder (really reputable guy) about the flywheel.
I have to keep it running this week but will pull the trans when I have a chance (maybe next wknd) and post pics. I'm worried that maybe I have a chipped tooth on first in the trans 
but I'm trying to be optimistic that it's just the clutch.
Thanks for the input.
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 2 2017, 07:35 AM
Travis - I think that's at least part of the problem. I only drove about 100 miles with the leak but it was pretty sizable. Doesn't seem like enough time to cause a problem (I fixed it as soon as I could just because of this worry), but I bet I do have oil on the friction plate.
Will post pics when able. Appreciate it.
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jul 2 2017, 10:25 AM
I understand "grabby", not so much "notchy". Based on that description, however it sounds very much like oil on the clutch plate. That's pretty much based on my past experience with a type one I once had. I replaced the clutch plate and cleaned the fly wheel surface and the pressure plate surface with a very strong solvent and "grabby" went away. 
Posted by: The Cabinetmaker Jul 2 2017, 10:40 AM
I'm another on the notchy thing. No idea what that means. Shudder should say it all. My great grandson likes to make up words too!
Posted by: The Cabinetmaker Jul 2 2017, 10:45 AM
One more thing, sounds like a clutch out of adjustment, or a wet clutch.
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 2 2017, 11:15 AM
When I press the clutch pedal cold, it's like butter.
When the engine's warm, it's like gravel. Doesn't need more pressure, just not smooth, at all.
Gets worse as engine gets warmer. So does the "grabbing" thing in first gear. So I figure they're related. But, engagement in all of the other gears seems fine, despite the "gravel" feel.
Continues to feel like "gravel" until things cool off, even with the engine shut off. When the engine/transmission/clutch cools off, clutch pedal is like butter again.
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 2 2017, 03:05 PM
Had a helper push on the clutch pedal and realized release fork is hitting the rear trans case on disengage. Like I said, I don't know my way around clutches.
I know from prior inspection there are no shims under the ball. So obviously I need to do that when I drop the trans also.
Question: is this part of my grabby problem too? Maybe I've been shifting with the clutch partially engaged and toasted something? 
Heated up the clutch cable with a heat gun with the engine cold - pedal stays smooth. So That helps rule out the clutch cable.
Edit: Bruce good thought but replaced the ball socket bushing along with new TOB with install. I think it needs shimmed.
Posted by: bdstone914 Jul 2 2017, 03:13 PM
Had a helper push on the clutch pedal and realized release fork is hitting the rear trans case on disengage. Like I said, I don't know my way around clutches.
I know from prior inspection there are no shims under the ball. So obviously I need to do that when I drop the trans also.
Question: is this part of my grabby problem too?
Heated up the clutch cable with a heat gun with the engine cold - pedal stays smooth. So That helps rule out the clutch cable.
The bushing for the ball pivot for the clutch fork may be shot. Cheap bushing but need to pull the trans to get to it. If you are real creative you might be able to separate the trans from the engine to replace the bushing without pulling it completely out.
Posted by: euro911 Jul 2 2017, 03:45 PM
Forrest had a similar problem a few weeks ago. The geometry changes with excess flywheel resurfacing and wear in the TO bearing's components.
There wasn't enough thread left to add another washer under the pivot ball in the trans case, so they cut down a coin to fit in the recess of the release lever and installed a new ball cup.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=159774&view=findpost&p=2490559
Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 13 2017, 12:58 PM
Was your flywheel resurfaced? That will set your distance from your trans further so the ball has to be shimmed with 2 washers and put some Teflon tape on the threads (very little) as it will leak otherwise.
Posted by: euro911 Jul 13 2017, 02:02 PM
Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 13 2017, 02:54 PM
Dude, if you need more than two washers, that flywheel is toast. The threads havent been any issues in the past with these being backed out two washers worth.
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 20 2017, 08:31 AM
Found two problems when I dropped the trans.
1) Pivot ball under shimmed for resurfaced flywheel. Also, pivot ball was heavily worn (prior fork pivot ball bushing was toast, so metal on metal for some time). Sourced an OEM part (took some time), shimmed with 2 washers, which restored proper fork geometry.
2) Moderately fouled friction disk. Also not a Sachs disk - clearly much less robust than the replacement.
Pulling away from stop lights smoothly and without any unpleasantness, at least in the past 10 miles.
Thanks again to the World for all the help and the welcome opinions! 
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 20 2017, 08:33 AM
Moral of the story is that even seemingly small trans input shaft leaks can mess up the clutch.
Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 20 2017, 09:11 AM
Dude, if you need parts like that in the future, let me know. I have a bucket of those.
Glad it's sorted now! 
Posted by: mzalanka Jul 20 2017, 11:56 AM
Dude, if you need parts like that in the future, let me know. I have a bucket of those.
Glad it's sorted now!
Thanks, man. I appreciate it. The original that was in there actually sheared off at the threads under like 10 foot pounds of torque ( I was actually able to back the threaded part out by hand, that's how little it was). So it was obviously ready to go. At least one vendor still has the OEM part, which seemed like the way to go after that experience.
Posted by: euro911 Jul 20 2017, 01:39 PM
Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 20 2017, 02:02 PM
...
Shudder should say it all.
...
I believe the correct technical term is "judder".
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