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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Engine oil leaking from bell housing AGAIN!
Posted by: Pugbug May 14 2005, 04:35 PM
I can't believe this is happening....When I first got the car there were a couple of oil leaks including one from the bell housing.
I hate oil leaks, so I pulled the engine, replaced the crank seal and the o ring on the flywheel and re-installed the engine.
At the time I was having problems tuning the engine...(Changed the distributor) and was running it a lot in the shop.
The bell housing started leaking oil again!
Pulled engine...new seal again new o ring again, and to be on the safe side I took the tranny in to the local guru and had the seal replaced in that...Still dripped oil!
I was never able to get the engine to run properly, so last winter I tore it down and discovered the cam and lifters were shot. Installed a Web 86 and web lifters, freshened the heads, installed yet another new main seal and o ring and I even took the fly wheel in to the shop to have the suface where the seal makes contact polished.
The engine runs great now, but the oil is leaking worse than ever!
What the hell am I doing wrong???? 
Have I missed something?
Posted by: 9144guy May 14 2005, 04:40 PM
whenever i build a engine i ALWAYS j/b weld those pulgs in the rear main seal area, did you check those?
Posted by: lapuwali May 14 2005, 04:51 PM
First, determine if it's gear oil or motor oil. They have VERY different odors. That way at least, you'll determine which side it's coming from: engine or gearbox. Cuts the problem in half.
Posted by: Bleyseng May 14 2005, 08:28 PM
Thats the starting point to fixing leaks....
Posted by: Pugbug May 14 2005, 09:14 PM
I did the sniff test....Engine oil for sure. I will be sure to check the galley plugs, and make darned sure I have the correct seal.
It seems to me when I was assembling this engine that the seal went in too easily. Not tight around the od at all, so it may have been the wrong seal, even though I specified 914 1.8 litre the VW shop.
The bright side of this is that I'm getting quick at engine removal and installations! 
Posted by: SLITS May 14 2005, 09:49 PM
Have you had the crank reground?
A seal, after many miles, can wear a groove in the crank. All the new seals in the world won't seal it if so. Check the end of the crank for a groove.
Hey....I'm just guessing!
Posted by: Pugbug May 15 2005, 12:11 AM
SLITS;
The seal rides on the flywheel.....not the crankshaft.
I'm thinking that the oil pressure may be too high, as I blew the gasket on the oil filter on first startup.
I'll put a gauge on it and check that before I go further.
Posted by: ClayPerrine May 15 2005, 07:19 AM
| QUOTE (Pugbug @ May 14 2005, 09:14 PM) |
| I did the sniff test....Engine oil for sure. I will be sure to check the galley plugs, and make darned sure I have the correct seal. It seems to me when I was assembling this engine that the seal went in too easily. Not tight around the od at all, so it may have been the wrong seal, even though I specified 914 1.8 litre the VW shop. The bright side of this is that I'm getting quick at engine removal and installations! |
If the seal goes in real easy, it may have a damaged seal opening on the back of the case. If that is the case (no pun intended) you would have to put some kind of sealer on the OD of the seal to make it stop.
Posted by: LvSteveH May 15 2005, 01:52 PM
Any chance it could be a crank case pressure problem? Do you have breathers to each of the heads? There has to be a simple answer somewhere. Good Luck getting it figured out.
Posted by: KenH May 15 2005, 03:24 PM
This time when you "part" the transmisson and engine take a few moments to see how high up on the case the leak starts.
I had a situation where I went through what you are going through and it turned out to be a leak at the Oil Pressure sensor running down the back of the case.
Is this OK Cap'n Krusty ??
Ken
Posted by: jr91472 May 15 2005, 03:33 PM
| QUOTE (9144guy @ May 14 2005, 02:40 PM) |
| whenever i build a engine i ALWAYS j/b weld those pulgs in the rear main seal area, did you check those? |
hmmm, never rebuilt and engine (yet). Can you be more specific? what plugs?
Posted by: KenH May 15 2005, 06:07 PM
There are various "plugs" pressed in to case to seal holes that were made to dill the oil galleries.
These plugs can leak, and even blowout, with high oil pressure.
When rebuilding it is advisable to drill out the plugs, tap the holes, and use screw-in plugs.
I suppose JB Weld can be used but I like the "tap & plug" idea.
Ken
Posted by: Headrage May 15 2005, 06:15 PM
I tapped and JB welded the plugs in.
Posted by: jr91472 May 15 2005, 06:37 PM
| QUOTE (KenH @ May 15 2005, 04:07 PM) |
| There are various "plugs" pressed in to case to seal holes that were made to dill the oil galleries. These plugs can leak, and even blowout, with high oil pressure. When rebuilding it is advisable to drill out the plugs, tap the holes, and use screw-in plugs. I suppose JB Weld can be used but I like the "tap & plug" idea. Ken |
aha...thanks
Posted by: SLITS May 15 2005, 07:54 PM
| QUOTE (Pugbug @ May 14 2005, 11:11 PM) |
| SLITS; The seal rides on the flywheel.....not the crankshaft. I'm thinking that the oil pressure may be too high, as I blew the gasket on the oil filter on first startup. I'll put a gauge on it and check that before I go further. |
I stand corrected...so check the flywheel.
I can't see where high oil pressure would effect the front or rear seals as there is no direct feed...they merely seal the case...crankcase pressure (blowby) could do it though.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 15 2005, 08:09 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ May 14 2005, 07:49 PM) |
| Have you had the crank reground? A seal, after many miles, can wear a groove in the crank. All the new seals in the world won't seal it if so. Check the end of the crank for a groove. Hey....I'm just guessing! |
The seal rides on the F/W, not the crank. HOWEVER, the flywheel shims can saw through the crank. Seen it before, although it would be VERY obvious when the engine was apart. My money's on the galley plugs .......... The Cap'n
Posted by: Pugbug May 16 2005, 09:42 AM
Capt'n Krusty;
So....We're taking bets are we? My money is on an incorrect seal. When I installed it I screwed the seal that came in the gasket kit up. It was really tight on the OD, so I whipped down to our local VW store (Bow Wow) and got a new one. It went in really easy. Not tight on the OD at all.
So place your bets gentlemen I'm heading out to the shop in about 30 minutes to drop the engine, and will report what I find. 
Posted by: Pugbug May 16 2005, 02:16 PM
I'm not sure, but it may not be the seal after all. There is a tiny lip that I can feel easily with a finger nail where the case halves mate at the bottom of the seal.
The galley plugs are dry, and the O ring was fairly dry as well.
I think I'll use a gasket compound on the new seal, and hope for the best.
You can see the uneveness at the bootom of the seal in the photo.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: jr91472 Jul 6 2005, 12:28 PM
hey Pugbug!!!!
whatever happened with your seal? Did you fix it?
I am experiencing the exact same problem now. I am on my second seal. Both really tight and flush. The surface of the flywheel (where it mates the seal) seems smooth.
I am starting to think about case pressure, because it only seems to leak after some highway driving.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2005, 01:46 PM
never understimate the fact that over time wear can "groove" the seal seating surface of the flywheel. If this groove is deep enough to catch a finger nail on it will not seal properly and will leak oil- no matter what else you do.
What causes this is lack of oil changes and dirty oil getting trapped between the seal and the flywheel.
Also many of the flywheel O rings that come in Gasket sets these days or clutch kits are pure junk. I have the real O rings with graphite coating to aid in install without tearing.
You guys are really gonna like the handbook that I'm finishing up on the subject of creating a leak free engine. A whole book on ONE subject!
BTW- Crankcase pressure is the biggest contributor to an oil leak. The pressure will frce oil from any possible orfice. Most of the breather boxes on the market lack enough volume to be worth a damn on our engines. I have a 1.25 Liter unit in stainless ready to market soon.
Once a breather box is filled with pressure- it may as well not even be there.
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jul 6 2005, 01:54 PM
Yup some emory cloth on the FLYWHEEL sealing surface should fix that problem. Little sealer around the outside edge between case and rear main seal wouldn't hurt either. How'd that spot on the seal pictured get boogered up?
Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2005, 01:58 PM
Also ALWAYS oil the seal before installing the flywheel. Since the seal is just that it never allows any oil to get to the sealing surface and on start up it can very easily smoke a portion of the seal away and create a leak...
I have seen a ton of flywheels that emerycloth would not help because the groove was way too deep.
Posted by: Pugbug Jul 6 2005, 03:01 PM
ir91472
Nope still leaking a bit. I am ignoring it for now and will drive the car thru the summer, then I'll either fix the problem or do a "Scott Thatcher" and go Subaru.
My other mods have worked very well too.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=30669&hl=
The engine and oil temps are cool. My fan (180*) on the oil cooler only came on once when I idled for a long time adjusting the carbs. I also added a scoop for the oil cooler.
I have to decide if I am going to spend more time and $ on this engine, or do the Suby conversion.
Posted by: echocanyons Jul 6 2005, 03:54 PM
Larry, First off let me say I feel your pain.
I have changed the rear main seal twice so far with no sucess, truthfully though I am not 100% sure its leaking from this seal.
I did the smell test and it really doesnt have a gear oil smell, but after changing the trans oil it doesnt smell like trans oil either.
So this in mind I changed the trans mainseal and will approach the oil cooler seals if this isnt the fix.
I have cleaned my engine to try and track down the leak but it mostly seams it is coming around the bellhousing.
My leak is only apparent when there is oil pressure or the car is moving (trans oil pressure), I cant tell which...
The leak is significant enough to stream down the trans and drip 2-3drops while coasting at ~5MPH
I have stock injection with a PVC I wonder if this isnt enough?
BTW this is the only thing keeping my car on the road
Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2005, 04:02 PM
Remember that behind the flywheel you have 3 possible galley plugs to leak as well...
I made an adaptor for my air line to adapt it to the factory oil pressure sending unit position. with this adaptor you can effectively pressureize the system with the engine out of the car to find the leaky plug.
I installed a variable pressure regulator in line with it to set the PSI where I wanted it- works great and saves heartache..
When an engine is rebuilt those galley plugs should be removed, galleys cleaned and a thread in type plug installed since these plugs are notorious for leaks... every jake engine has this done, no matter what.
Posted by: jhadler Jul 6 2005, 04:05 PM
If there is that "step" you described in the ID of the bore in the case, there are some shadetree techniques to smoothing that out.
A little tiny fillet of JB weld on the spot in question, then wet sand with WD40 and fine grit paper. The trick with this is to apply just the bare minimum of epoxy, and only very lightly sand. It may take a while, but it's almost the next best thing to welding it up and taking it to a machine shop...
That, and always oil the seal before installing. And make sure the seal is going in flat and even. If it tips on one side while it's going in, even just a little, the seal is usually wrecked. BTDT...
-Josh2
Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 16 2005, 10:20 PM
i don't know how i missed this one. how about a preview picture of what the breather will look like.
r
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 16 2005, 10:34 PM
I have found the same thing Jake has found: JUNK seals. The ONLY rear main seal I use is the "brown" style. The black ones suck.. the orange ones suck.. Stop buying parts from the VW places. One POS Brazilian seal.. and you are playing with fire.
I may have missed it... but what are you doing with the breather setup? Is it carbed or injected?
B
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 17 2005, 06:53 AM
Awwwwww, crap.
I pulled a black seal and now I have an orange seal (not installed yet). Where do I find the brown seal and who makes it?
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 17 2005, 12:08 PM
You need to buy one from one of the better parts suppliers. SOMEBODY who actually builds these cars.. NOT parts pushers like GPR/Pelican/PerformanceP/
I suggest HPH/Otto's/Brad Mayeur/
Ask for the brown one specifically. The people listed above will have them in stock.
This is just one of the minor issues with people buying parts from VW places. Some of them know and some of them dont. Unless they have to warranty T4 engines after the rebuild.. they wont know.
B
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 17 2005, 12:09 PM
I now see you are in Maryland. Maybe somebody closer to you can supply you with the part. Chris Foley should be able to get one/several.
This may not be the answer.. but 9 out of 10 engine builders will tell you to use the brown one.
B
Posted by: jr91472 Jul 17 2005, 01:10 PM
| QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Jul 17 2005, 10:08 AM) |
| You need to buy one from one of the better parts suppliers. SOMEBODY who actually builds these cars.. NOT parts pushers like GPR/Pelican/PerformanceP/ I suggest HPH/Otto's/Brad Mayeur/ Ask for the brown one specifically. The people listed above will have them in stock. This is just one of the minor issues with people buying parts from VW places. Some of them know and some of them dont. Unless they have to warranty T4 engines after the rebuild.. they wont know. B |
Thanks Brad, I am on my third "orange" seal. Will give brown a try!!!
thanks again
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 17 2005, 01:27 PM
There's a place down the street from where I work called "Wagensport." I'll check them out, although I've never seen any air cooled VW's in the parking lot.
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 17 2005, 02:19 PM
JR (TX guy)
Your kinda SOL. Zims in Bedford or Wes Hildreth in Plano off of 14th steet. (H+H) enterprises. Wes will probably have one in stock also. I know Plano is closer to you.
B
Posted by: jr91472 Jul 17 2005, 02:31 PM
| QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Jul 17 2005, 12:19 PM) |
| JR (TX guy) Your kinda SOL. Zims in Bedford or Wes Hildreth in Plano off of 14th steet. (H+H) enterprises. Wes will probably have one in stock also. I know Plano is closer to you. B |
I know Wes pretty well these days....will give him a try.
Does HPH do mail order?
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 20 2005, 05:17 AM
I checked the seal I got. It is indeed orange. Victor Reinz, made in Germany. Should I still be looking for the brown seal? I've had good luck with buying only German made aftermarket parts for the Mercedes...
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 20 2005, 09:04 AM
Can you shoot a pic of it ?
B
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 20 2005, 11:02 AM
Yeah, tonight when I get home.
Posted by: jr91472 Jul 20 2005, 11:49 AM
GPR list an OEM seal by "Viton Goetze" for $17. Anyone ever use em?
http://www.gprparts.com/OEMParts/porsche.asp
Posted by: Marty Yeoman Jul 20 2005, 02:17 PM
I just finished this repair with leak free results. Here's the story.
New seal was a orange Victor Reinz.
The flywheel seal surface must be pristine. Mine wasn't. No wear groove, but showed pitting I couldn't polish out.
I installed a "quick sleave" (75mm dia) available through NAPA parts. This adds 0.5mm to the diameter.
It was a little long after installation (.25in) so I groomed it to length with my dremmel grinder.
I smeared the seal OD with Mr Goodrench RTV and installed it into the engine case.
Then, I cleaned up the flywheel o-ring groove and oiled and installed the new o-ring.
I coated both the seal lip and new flywheel surface with 140 weight gear oil and bolted it up.
I've found thet when dealing with oil seals you really need to pay attention to the small details.
The will make or break your effort.
By the way, I also replaced both transmission output shaft seals using this technique (no need for sleave, though)
with leak free results.
Good luck
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 20 2005, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the tips, Marty. I have used a sleeve on my Corvette front main seal, since I was too cheap to replace a damper that had only about 5K miles on it. I will check on the condition of the sealing surface on the flywheel... I know for a fact that there are no grooves that can catch a fingernail, but I'm not sure whether there is any pitting. I didn't realize that sleeving was an option for this part.
Posted by: 3d914 Jul 20 2005, 05:28 PM
An alternative to a sleeve, is to check the width of the wear on flywheel. I had good luck pressing the seal in an extra 2mm or so - allowing the seal to wear on a fresh area of the flywheel.
Not a long-term fix, but it worked.
Enjoy!
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 21 2005, 05:19 AM
I looked at the flywheel again last night. There are two noticeable wear areas where it rides against the seal. I've been referred to Peak Performance VW in Seabrook, MD. I'm going to take the flywheel to them and see whether they recommend sleeving or polishing.
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 21 2005, 05:31 AM
My orange seal. I took about 6 pictures and this was the only one that came out in focus. It's made by Victor Reinz, and the box had a label that reads "Made in Germany."
Attached image(s)
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jul 21 2005, 12:22 PM
| QUOTE (jr91472 @ Jul 17 2005, 03:31 PM) | ||
I know Wes pretty well these days....will give him a try. Does HPH do mail order? |
HPH DOES do mail order, I just got a brown seal from pelican too though... made be elring or something like that, says made in germany too..
I don't think mine was leaking until I pulled the engine and checked the free-end play... that shouldn't have F'd it up though...
Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 21 2005, 12:36 PM
The Viton seal is all I use and stock, but about 25% of them have too small of an OD creating fitting issues, as a leak can come from around the seal... We measure them and send the junk back.
Flywheels that have grooved surfaces eat seals for breakfast.
Posted by: zymurgist Jul 21 2005, 12:45 PM
Jake,
1. How would you define "grooved?" If you can feel it with your fingernail, no matter how slight, it's a groove? There are no less than 2 of these smooth but very very slight indentations on the flywheel that came out of Babydoll. (I don't know what the other one looks like, but I can get it out of my garage attic and inspect it thoroughly.)
Would a flywheel with such a grooved surface then be a candidate for sleeving, assuming that it is in otherwise good shape?
2. I'm pretty sure that my orange seal says Viton on it.
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