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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ V8 cooling ideas.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 18 2017, 05:06 PM
I think I have pretty much exhausted the ways to make a mechanical Chrysler/Renegade water pump setup run as efficiently as possible.
At this time; I do notice that at idle, the engine temp creeps up but as soon as I give it throttle; the temp comes down by almost 10 degrees... it stands the reason since at higher rpm's, there is more water flow.
Now for the ideas... I have a spare aux electric water pump from my 545i. BMW uses the pump to assist in pumping coolant to the heater core. It is a small unit and I am sure the flow is low compared to the standard electric or mechanical water pump. Could I integrate this lil ol electric unit to flow a more consistent rate, even at idle? Would it interrupt the flow from the mechanical w/p?
The other item is the oil cooler that came with the engine but I have yet to install. Would this help cool the engine down and by how much?
Posted by: HalfMoon Sep 18 2017, 05:50 PM
I think I have pretty much exhausted the ways to make a mechanical Chrysler/Renegade water pump setup run as efficiently as possible.
At this time; I do notice that at idle, the engine temp creeps up but as soon as I give it throttle; the temp comes down by almost 10 degrees... it stands the reason since at higher rpm's, there is more water flow.
Now for the ideas... I have a spare aux electric water pump from my 545i. BMW uses the pump to assist in pumping coolant to the heater core. It is a small unit and I am sure the flow is low compared to the standard electric or mechanical water pump. Could I integrate this lil ol electric unit to flow a more consistent rate, even at idle? Would it interrupt the flow from the mechanical w/p?
The other item is the oil cooler that came with the engine but I have yet to install. Would this help cool the engine down and by how much?
I'm sure you've already thought of this and or attended to it, but mine was doing the exact same thing and I came to find out I had air in my system.
It would impede flow to a point where sometimes the sensor wouldn't take an accurate read and kick on the fans. But if I bliped the throttle the temps would come down and almost immediately after, the fans would come on. I was perplexed. Actually it was Renegade themselves who advised me about the possible air problem. I installed a bleeder valve at the top part of the radiator (there was a bung mounted up there-presumably for a heat line). It took forever to really get the air totally out of the system, but I have never had either problem since. I never go over 200 now and the fans kick in exactly at 190.
Addendum-And at idle since the fans come on right at 190, my idle temp rarely goes past 192-3
Posted by: DM_2000 Sep 18 2017, 06:03 PM
What specifically are you using for an engine and cooling system?
For the aux pump to work would require a check valve in one of the rad hoses then place the pump across this check valve. If a check valve isn't used, the pump would just recirculate water.
Another possibility would be to plumb the pump in like a heater core application then hang a heater core under the rear of the car.
An oil to air cooler will reduce engine temps overall as oil is always hotter than coolant. An oil to coolant cooler reduces oil temp at the expense of increasing coolant temps if the radiator is marginal.
What is your charging system voltage? If low, bringing the engine RPM up would increase voltage and make the electric fan spin faster.
Some cars ( 2000 era Jeep / Toyota ? ) used a hydraulic rad fan driven off the power steering pump. I'd be tempted to use something like this as I'd think power losses would be less.
Posted by: Andyrew Sep 18 2017, 09:29 PM
I would certainly entertain a oil cooler at this point.
As I have said before, I think an electric pump would really do the job here. I still suggest the Davies Craig model I told you about a year ago.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 19 2017, 12:11 PM
I would certainly entertain a oil cooler at this point.
As I have said before, I think an electric pump would really do the job here. I still suggest the Davies Craig model I told you about a year ago.
I am aware of your (and others) recommendations but when you have a spouse that is so wanting for me to sell the car; it's hard to spend any money on the thing at all!
These are items I already have around the garage and would be easy enough to install.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 19 2017, 12:18 PM
What specifically are you using for an engine and cooling system?
For the aux pump to work would require a check valve in one of the rad hoses then place the pump across this check valve. If a check valve isn't used, the pump would just recirculate water.
Another possibility would be to plumb the pump in like a heater core application then hang a heater core under the rear of the car.
An oil to air cooler will reduce engine temps overall as oil is always hotter than coolant. An oil to coolant cooler reduces oil temp at the expense of increasing coolant temps if the radiator is marginal.
What is your charging system voltage? If low, bringing the engine RPM up would increase voltage and make the electric fan spin faster.
Some cars ( 2000 era Jeep / Toyota ? ) used a hydraulic rad fan driven off the power steering pump. I'd be tempted to use something like this as I'd think power losses would be less.
Perhaps you can sketch out the check valve setup? I cannot quite picture it.
I do not think I would go the heater core route.
The oil cooler I have is an oil to air cooler. That might be the next step to try.
RPM does drop when the electric fan (from an early 90's Taurus) comes on. I can probably bump up the idle a bit to compensate. Voltage drops from around 14 to around < 13.
Posted by: Andyrew Sep 19 2017, 12:32 PM
The oil cooler will help for sure. Start with that.
Posted by: Mike1981 Sep 19 2017, 01:57 PM
Hello
I am no expert but I have owbed 2 V8 conversions.
the 1st has a Mopar water pump
I tried to get the air out but felt it never was able to adequately cool the engine especially in the summer the engine overheated on me once.
The one I have now has an electric water pump
Cool as a cucumber even driving it 13 hours straight.
Hope this helps
MIke
Posted by: burton73 Sep 19 2017, 02:19 PM
Tony,
I do not know how long you have been married but as an old married man let me say that I think you should tell your spouse that when you sell your car you need it to run right and not overheat. So, this investment in the car will make it so you can get more for the sorted out car when you sell it. Or say this will make it possible to sell it.
Not that you want to but if you need to you can.
Tell your spouse that everything is for sale except them. They like that!
Bob B
Posted by: DM_2000 Sep 19 2017, 07:07 PM
Here is a pic of the aux pump across the upper rad hose, I could be tempted to place this on the lower hose. This is a bit of a last resort hack and would need testing. What temps are you actually getting?
Your charging system is dropping off too much, prop that up and the cooling issue may go away.
If you have a largeish battery charger, hook that up while at idle , don't rev the engine and see if temps drop. ( The fan will be running faster but water flow will be the same. )
I'm also wondering if the temp gauge is responding to a higher voltage and making it look like the temps are dropping.
Is you fan a push or pull? Does the fan move air across the entire rad? A push fan that is too close to the rad will have a dead air flow spot at the center of fan and will reduce cooling.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: cali914 Sep 19 2017, 09:38 PM
ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 20 2017, 08:19 AM
Tony,
I do not know how long you have been married but as an old married man let me say that I think you should tell your spouse that when you sell your car you need it to run right and not overheat. So, this investment in the car will make it so you can get more for the sorted out car when you sell it. Or say this will make it possible to sell it.
Not that you want to but if you need to you can.
Tell your spouse that everything is for sale except them. They like that!
Bob B
Twenty four and half years of marital bliss? Er, I mean marital bliss!
I like your point of view and will relay that to the Mrs. This will be a good winter project!
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 20 2017, 08:38 AM
ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?
If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?
Posted by: mgp4591 Sep 20 2017, 04:00 PM
Tony,
I do not know how long you have been married but as an old married man let me say that I think you should tell your spouse that when you sell your car you need it to run right and not overheat. So, this investment in the car will make it so you can get more for the sorted out car when you sell it. Or say this will make it possible to sell it.
Not that you want to but if you need to you can.
Tell your spouse that everything is for sale except them. They like that!
Bob B
Twenty four and half years of marital bliss? Er, I mean marital bliss!
I like your point of view and will relay that to the Mrs. This will be a good winter project!
Does she like riding in the car at all? I know the ID winters are rough and long (that's what SHE said...) but if she likes cruising through the canyons and such with the roof off in the summer, press the point that proper cooling will mean less headaches in the long run while she gets to enjoy longer rides with the love of her life - who would happily sell the car if she absolutely insisted! Or whatever...
Posted by: cali914 Sep 20 2017, 06:18 PM
ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?
If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?
Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.
Posted by: cali914 Sep 20 2017, 06:20 PM
I am using same radiator in my v6 honda 914 as i did with the v8 only difference is i am using honda stock water pump 180 degree all day long.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 21 2017, 08:36 AM
I am using same radiator in my v6 honda 914 as i did with the v8 only difference is i am using honda stock water pump 180 degree all day long.
Would love to see pictures of this!
You have the same dual pass rad?
Does this make that much of a difference compared to a single pass, 2 row all aluminium radiator?
Which is better to change first my wp to electric or my rad to a dual pass unit?
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 21 2017, 08:40 AM
ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?
If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?
Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.
I was not sure if there is a preferred placement... front or rear, bottom or top of the car.
I am looking at the Jegs 50 gpm unit that is designed to fit in a stock BB Mopar w/p enclosure/case which therefore; theoretically should fit in the Renegade w/p enclosure; perhaps with a bit of modifying.
Posted by: 914GT Sep 21 2017, 08:52 AM
Best location for a remote electric water pump is as low in the system as possible, and where the coolant is forced into the pump inlet during acceleration rather than away from it. So in a 914 the preferred location would be below the engine, although it'll probably work fine below the radiator.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 21 2017, 11:28 AM
ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?
If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?
Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.
I was not sure if there is a preferred placement... front or rear, bottom or top of the car.
I am looking at the Jegs 50 gpm unit that is designed to fit in a stock BB Mopar w/p enclosure/case which therefore; theoretically should fit in the Renegade w/p enclosure; perhaps with a bit of modifying.
It's funny; the more I read about 914 water cooling but more so; just general water cooling, the more confusing it gets!
Don't mean to 'beat a dead horse' but I saw an article about water pump pulley sizes being critical to the flow characteristics of a cooling system. One to 1 is good (wp pulley size the same diameter as the crankshaft pulley diameter) but perhaps undersizing would allow more coolant to flow but with the possible adverse affect of allowing the coolant to flow too quickly and not allowing enough time for correct heat transfer to occur. Confusing!!
Posted by: Andyrew Sep 21 2017, 12:14 PM
ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?
If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?
Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.
I was not sure if there is a preferred placement... front or rear, bottom or top of the car.
I am looking at the Jegs 50 gpm unit that is designed to fit in a stock BB Mopar w/p enclosure/case which therefore; theoretically should fit in the Renegade w/p enclosure; perhaps with a bit of modifying.
I cant recommend enough (apparently) a water pump controller that will actually control the speed of the pump. If you just get a pump that will go on and off you'll find that it will overcool causing getting up to temp to take forever.
This is what I recommend. Read into how the LCD controller works.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Davies-Craig-DC-8970-EWP150-Electric-Water-Pump-and-LCD-EWP-Fan-Digital-Contro-/112526742581?hash=item1a331dd435:g:AvIAAOSwLGpZk0JL&vxp=mtr
Another option if you dont need an LCD (I love mine though, being able to see what is going on). This one does essentially the same thing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Davies-Craig-EWP150-Remote-Electric-Water-Pump-Kit-Aluminum-with-Controller-/322762175702?epid=1729669253&hash=item4b261ff4d6:g:5wUAAOSwrNlZwciR&vxp=mtr
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Sep 22 2017, 04:37 PM
ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?
If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?
Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.
I was not sure if there is a preferred placement... front or rear, bottom or top of the car.
I am looking at the Jegs 50 gpm unit that is designed to fit in a stock BB Mopar w/p enclosure/case which therefore; theoretically should fit in the Renegade w/p enclosure; perhaps with a bit of modifying.
I cant recommend enough (apparently) a water pump controller that will actually control the speed of the pump. If you just get a pump that will go on and off you'll find that it will overcool causing getting up to temp to take forever.
This is what I recommend. Read into how the LCD controller works.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Davies-Craig-DC-8970-EWP150-Electric-Water-Pump-and-LCD-EWP-Fan-Digital-Contro-/112526742581?hash=item1a331dd435:g:AvIAAOSwLGpZk0JL&vxp=mtr
Another option if you dont need an LCD (I love mine though, being able to see what is going on). This one does essentially the same thing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Davies-Craig-EWP150-Remote-Electric-Water-Pump-Kit-Aluminum-with-Controller-/322762175702?epid=1729669253&hash=item4b261ff4d6:g:5wUAAOSwrNlZwciR&vxp=mtr
If I could, I would!
To have that sort of granular (ok... fluid) control would be awesome! Just around double what my foreseeable budget would be!
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Oct 18 2017, 07:26 PM
I wanted to give an update on how I DRASTICALLY improved the cooling efficiency of my car. No electric water pump or 4 core radiator needed.
My engine originally came with an oil cooler installed (Chevy pickup). Unfortunately; the cooler was ruined after the truck wrecked. I kept the oil cooler adapter installed on the block and just capped off the ports on the adapter.
Fast forward years later and after combating a constant run hot situation on my car; I decided to go through my parts bin and install an oil cooler I had from another project.
What an incredible difference! My car is now running a consistent 20 degrees cooler... without touching anything else! It's a miracle I tell you!
Anyway; I have it mounted on my engine lid right now. Is there a better place to install it for more efficient cooling?
Posted by: cali914 Oct 19 2017, 08:20 AM
What are your temps now ideling freeway and driving around town?
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Oct 19 2017, 09:29 AM
What are your temps now ideling freeway and driving around town?
More details... Right now, I have the fan set to come on at around 170 (I will be adjusting this). Driving around town or at freeway speeds, the temp has yet to go beyond 185, which is OK with me, especially compared to what it was before. Twenty degrees higher and it was fast approaching the danger zone!
Posted by: DM_2000 Oct 19 2017, 05:06 PM
I'd put some muffin fans under the cooler blowing upwards. Maybe wire them into the rad fan circuit.
These fans are those square fans found on computers and other stuff.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Oct 24 2017, 10:50 AM
I'd put some muffin fans under the cooler blowing upwards. Maybe wire them into the rad fan circuit.
These fans are those square fans found on computers and other stuff.
That's a pretty good idea!
Think I get a noticeable temp drop by doing so?
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Oct 24 2017, 11:19 AM
I'd put some muffin fans under the cooler blowing upwards. Maybe wire them into the rad fan circuit.
These fans are those square fans found on computers and other stuff.
Checked out DigiKey's website:
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/fans-thermal-management/dc-fans/217?FV=38007e%2Cffe000d9%2C2fc0525&mnonly=0&ColumnSort=1000011&page=1&stock=0&pbfree=0&rohs=0&cad=0&datasheet=0&nstock=0&photo=0&nonrohs=0&newproducts=0&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
What do you suppose a good CFM rating would be for a couple of muffin fans mounted to my oil cooler?
Posted by: DM_2000 Oct 24 2017, 04:53 PM
I'd probably fit 2 maybe 3 fans. Find a fan the same dim as the small dim of the cooler.
There are tons of electronic surplus places, I'd hit them up first. Along with a place that scraps out computers. I've seen Dell towers have a fan that looks to be sized right, not sure of voltage though I's expect 12V
Check out the traditional hand drawn product pics
https://www.sciplus.com
In CA
https://www.allelectronics.com/
Or type in to google " electronic surplus " and " <the state you are in> "
Posted by: 76-914 Oct 24 2017, 05:01 PM
Man, your cooling system is getting complicated. I hope I don't share the problems your having with my SBC build.
Posted by: BRAVE_HELIOS Oct 24 2017, 05:14 PM
Man, your cooling system is getting complicated. I hope I don't share the problems your having with my SBC build.
LOL... I look at the cooling hoses going all over the place and say the same thing!
Granted, I could tidy it up a bit; somehow but everything there is what's needed... expansion tank; heater core for our cold Idaho falls and springs.
It will stay like this for now. Next summer; if the coolant temps get too high when it's 100 degrees out; then it will be time for a 4-core rad and electric water pump setup! But considering where I came from with my constant run hot issue; the addition of the oil cooler definitely made a huge difference!
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