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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Restoring a dipped 914
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Sep 22 2017, 09:23 AM
I'm restoring a 914-6 that was dipped many years ago, and then stored.
The process destroyed the heater tubes in the longs, but I'm working on both of those so replacing them is a given.
Last weekend at Octeenerfest Bill Dunster (W Dunster) who is a rep for PPG suggested getting it re-dipped and e-coated. Sounds good to me, but there's some logistical challenges.
The original plan was to do all the rust repair, and chassis stiffening then treat the car with my corrosion treatment process, which while good, not as good as getting the whole car e-coated.
So if we were to proceed with e-coating, then of course stock paper heater tubes are off the table. This isn't a biggie, but as one who defaults to original build methods, I wonder about the trade offs of metal heater tubes; noise, heat loss, etc.
Anyone out there have a 914 dipped or restore a dipped 914?
Anyone have a 914 e-coated?
Posted by: gcrotvik Sep 22 2017, 10:03 AM
Mark's thread regarding e coating:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=272242&hl=ecoat
Posted by: Rob-O Sep 22 2017, 11:05 AM
I had a friend that did it to his -6 back in the mid 80's. There can't be many cars out there that have had this done. Anyhow, I can tell you on his that it'll he wouldn't do it again. He is deceased now, but it was chemically stripped first. The longs were pulled off (car was braced first). Car was e-coated, and then longs welded back on afterwards, although they weren't factory longs. Not sure that factory longs were available back then from the factory. And this was long before the aftermarket guys started making them.
He ran into issues where the stripper got into recesses and couldn't get out of those recesses easily. So even after final paint he has areas in the front trunk (specifically under the 'a' pillars) that leaked stripper and ruined the paint in that area. It makes sense, the e-coating process is used for factory vehicles (we had it done at an OEM for the big three). But those tanks and the trolleys and the angles of the car are set up for cars that are bare steel, not one that might have some hidden nooks and crannies that are holding chemical stripper.
By the way, what color is the car? It might be the same car that I know.
Posted by: mepstein Sep 22 2017, 12:20 PM
We have our 911 tubs dipped and e-coated but don’t make the mistake we made on our first one. Do all your rust repair first and then have ecoated. Otherwise, all the new metal just gets the regular hit of primer. Sort of defeats the purpose of the e coat.
Posted by: cary Sep 22 2017, 10:44 PM
Freddie at Vintage Restorations swears by dipping and has been doing it for years.
If you dont know anything about Freddies restorations, they're next level. So one would assume there's no issues or call backs. I have a 964 front latch panel in for a test dip to see if it will remove the PVC undercoating.
No expirence with e-coating, We/I epoxy primer after stripping. But you have to reapply after rust repairs are completed.
Posted by: Wdunster Sep 26 2017, 08:57 PM
Hi perry I'm still trying to find a company around here that does it. I'll keep you posted
B
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Sep 27 2017, 06:11 AM
Hi perry I'm still trying to find a company around here that does it. I'll keep you posted
B
Thanks Bill, the closest I've found so far is central Louisiana
Posted by: dflesburg Sep 27 2017, 06:27 AM
I did it in '92... Dipped the 914 and restored.
Biggest issue in my mind is the amount of paint it takes to paint a dipped car...
Never had a car e-coated.
Not sure what you are asking, but if you are asking what heater hoses to put in the longs you can put in the orange aircraft tube that's usually what we have used.
Posted by: dlee6204 Sep 27 2017, 06:36 AM
Hi perry I'm still trying to find a company around here that does it. I'll keep you posted
B
Thanks Bill, the closest I've found so far is central Louisiana
For acid dipping or Ecoating?
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Sep 27 2017, 07:44 AM
Hi perry I'm still trying to find a company around here that does it. I'll keep you posted
B
Thanks Bill, the closest I've found so far is central Louisiana
For acid dipping or Ecoating?
The dipping shop works with an E coating facility
Posted by: mepstein Sep 27 2017, 08:51 AM
Hi perry I'm still trying to find a company around here that does it. I'll keep you posted
B
Thanks Bill, the closest I've found so far is central Louisiana
That’s where we go. They don’t have restrictions like the rest of the country.
Posted by: jd74914 Sep 27 2017, 09:01 AM
About how much does it cost?
Posted by: mepstein Sep 27 2017, 11:27 AM
About how much does it cost?
I think about $3500-4K for the acid dip and e coat
Posted by: Brian Mifsud Sep 27 2017, 03:59 PM
It might be worth it to figure out where the car does NOT drain well, and drill some holes up front to prevent the retained stripper incident mentioned above. (Assuming under the car), drill the holes big enough to stuff rubber plugs in after painting, or "duckbill" drain valves like the ones that were original.
Posted by: cal44 Sep 27 2017, 04:13 PM
I'll just stay with glass beads or walnut shell blasting on a rotisserie. With dipping you are never sure you got all the acid neutralized. I do Por-15 in the seams.
Just a humble opinion.
Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 28 2017, 09:00 AM
I'm helping with a 356. Doors and lids were acid dipped, then pickeled, then coated. You have to get primer on them pretty quick after the coating.
Work is being done in Canada (Redi Strip)
Doors and lids were about $2k CA
Tub will be about $11k CA
You have to ensure you have access ports to enclused areas such as the longs.
Never dipped a 914, not sure how you'd handle the heater tubes?
Not cheap, but totally worth it. Wait until you see how the coating weeps in between all the imperfect metal seams. it really protects what other products simply cannot.
Posted by: cary Sep 28 2017, 09:47 AM
I just scheduled the third Rothsport 964 rally car for dipping in November.
I had a trunk/spare tire nose test dipped for $200. They got all the new PVC undercoating. But it too about twice as long. Which is more money $$.
I'll shoot a picture in the am when I drop off Doug's 914-6 engine tin.
Stunning when compared to to the 100's of hours spent on doing it manually after having them attempt a strip with walnuts. Walnuts don't touch the PVC.
Wont be e coated, just epoxy primered.
Posted by: Rob-O Sep 28 2017, 11:39 AM
It might be worth it to figure out where the car does NOT drain well, and drill some holes up front to prevent the retained stripper incident mentioned above. (Assuming under the car), drill the holes big enough to stuff rubber plugs in after painting, or "duckbill" drain valves like the ones that were original.
The one I helped with back in the 80's we removed all of the holes in the passenger compartment floor and both front and rear trunk areas. They were originally used to allow the spot welder to reach certain areas, but it helped those areas drain.
I'm helping with a 356. Doors and lids were acid dipped, then pickeled, then coated. You have to get primer on them pretty quick after the coating.
Not cheap, but totally worth it. Wait until you see how the coating weeps in between all the imperfect metal seams. it really protects what other products simply cannot.
That was another issue I completely forgot about. The frame of the front and rear trunks have a expanded foam type material between the frame of the panel and the skin. The acid dipping we did destroyed all of that. His car was a -6, so no reinforcements in the door. But any car after '72 (IIRC) has those inner door reinforcements, which also have that foam between the reinforcement and the door skin.
I want to say that the owner of the car I worked on eventually had to source replacement panels. But I don't remember positively. Not much would be holding it from rattling around or possibly moving after that foam is gone. Except where it's crimped around the frame.
Posted by: r_towle Sep 28 2017, 03:04 PM
Anyone ever just replace the heater tubes with steel tubing?
Then close up the long and dip the car?
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Sep 28 2017, 04:46 PM
Anyone ever just replace the heater tubes with steel tubing?
Then close up the long and dip the car?
If I go with re-dipping and e-coat, that's exactly what I'll do.
I have been told there is a Faraday effect that can inhibit the e-coat from getting inside box sections of steel.
My initial plan was to do my own comprehensive corrosion treatment on the chassis after all the rust repair, and chassis stiffening is completed.
I've got about another week or so before I'll have to make a decision.
Posted by: r_towle Sep 28 2017, 08:15 PM
If you go that route, replacing the tubes, could you possibly document the project?
Posted by: cary Oct 7 2017, 08:56 AM
Stripper Porn
Here is a few shot of the nose section we sent in for a dip.
That entire section was coated with the new generation PVC undercoating.
Posted by: Rob-O Oct 7 2017, 02:31 PM
Anyone ever just replace the heater tubes with steel tubing?
Then close up the long and dip the car?
If I go with re-dipping and e-coat, that's exactly what I'll do.
I have been told there is a Faraday effect that can inhibit the e-coat from getting inside box sections of steel.
My initial plan was to do my own comprehensive corrosion treatment on the chassis after all the rust repair, and chassis stiffening is completed.
I've got about another week or so before I'll have to make a decision.
I wonder why it was a paper/foil piece instead of steel tubing. I can only think of two reasons why they didn't. Either it would have made the assembly of that part of the car more difficult (or expensive). Or they were worried about chassis flex and possibility that the tubing would fatigue and crack.
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Oct 7 2017, 06:32 PM
Anyone ever just replace the heater tubes with steel tubing?
Then close up the long and dip the car?
If I go with re-dipping and e-coat, that's exactly what I'll do.
I have been told there is a Faraday effect that can inhibit the e-coat from getting inside box sections of steel.
My initial plan was to do my own comprehensive corrosion treatment on the chassis after all the rust repair, and chassis stiffening is completed.
I've got about another week or so before I'll have to make a decision.
I wonder why it was a paper/foil piece instead of steel tubing. I can only think of two reasons why they didn't. Either it would have made the assembly of that part of the car more difficult (or expensive). Or they were worried about chassis flex and possibility that the tubing would fatigue and crack.
Sound muffling, and heat retention is my guess. They are heavily insulated.
Posted by: Rob-O Oct 7 2017, 10:14 PM
Anyone ever just replace the heater tubes with steel tubing?
Then close up the long and dip the car?
If I go with re-dipping and e-coat, that's exactly what I'll do.
I have been told there is a Faraday effect that can inhibit the e-coat from getting inside box sections of steel.
My initial plan was to do my own comprehensive corrosion treatment on the chassis after all the rust repair, and chassis stiffening is completed.
I've got about another week or so before I'll have to make a decision.
Great point. They are heavily insulated.
I wonder why it was a paper/foil piece instead of steel tubing. I can only think of two reasons why they didn't. Either it would have made the assembly of that part of the car more difficult (or expensive). Or they were worried about chassis flex and possibility that the tubing would fatigue and crack.
Sound muffling, and heat retention is my guess. They are heavily insulated.
Great point, they are heavily insulated.
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