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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 123 Distributor Group Buy Thread

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 18 2017, 09:28 AM

For those in the position of having a non-functional or failing distributor there is an alternative.
I ran into this issue while building a stock 2.0 motor for my car- while trying to source parts for what I thought was a functional stock distributor.
The link is here for information: http://123ignitionusa.com.
I talked to Ed ......he is based in Ohio and he said he would do group buy discounts if others were interested.

Details:

914 models are available in the following configurations:
1. http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-912-914-356-vw-411e-412e-1600e-switched-w-o-vacuum-porsche-4-r-includes-spacer/ Will work with engines that have carbs, L-Jet or aftermarket FI. Will not work with D-Jet.
2. http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-912-914-356-vw-411e-412e-1600e-switched-with-vacuum-porsche-4-r-v-includes-spacer/ Will work with engines that have carbs, L-Jet or aftermarket FI. Will not work with D-Jet.
3. http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-912-914-356-vw-411e-412e-1600e-type4-switched-w-bosch-jetronic-fi-porsche-4-r-v-ie-includes-spacer/ This is the unit to choose for stock D-Jet users.
4. http://123ignitionusa.com/bluetooth-tune-4-cylinder-for-porsche-and-volkswagon-engines-naturally-aspirated-w-spacer/ This is the best unit for carbs, L-Jet, aftermarket FI
5. http://123ignitionusa.com/tune-usb-4-cylinder-for-porsche-and-volkswagon-vw-engines-naturally-aspirated-w-spacer/ Will work with engines that have carbs, L-Jet or aftermarket FI. Will not work with D-Jet.

Coupon Code to use at checkout is: 914world
Group Buy discount is 10% off retail on any product I offer. If there are more than 10 orders the discount becomes 15% and the additional 5% will be refunded to the cc of the first ten orders.
This group buy is for shipping to any address Con US.

The group buy will run for three weeks and orders will all ship 7-10 days after the close (Nov 10).
Place all orders NOW using the coupon code, and that puts you 'on the list' but your part won't ship until mid-November.




I.ll keep the thread bumped for a couple of weeks to measure or collect interest.

Rob

10-22-2017 Edit: -Rob

Here is the confirmed ...by me....orders that we have. Mark D. (McMark) was kind enough to edit some clarifications for the type of Dizzy to get. You are ultimately responsible...that way we all learn at least something. beerchug.gif

Here is the count I have:

TJB/914 -1
914_teener-1
Philip W.-1
pvollma-1

Amphicar770-1

BeatNavy-1
nditiz1-1

CMONNETT-1

Bsherrard-1

olsib914-1

pete000-1 ( Met Pete at Luftenkult) I'll vouch for him.

Morrie-1


I count 12 if for interest only, so if true that would be 15% discount off list. This will be great comparing notes on performance.

Posted by: mmichalik Oct 18 2017, 09:47 AM

Guys,

Although I'm not in need of one now, I do have a lot of experience with this particular distributor setup in my e10 and they are well worth the money.

They are programmable, exceptionally well made, blue-tooth compatible and bring a night-and-day noticeable difference to your motor.

If you're on the fence, I would highly recommend you take the step. If you hadn't thought about it yet, I would highly recommend you take the step.

It's money well spent.

Mike

Posted by: pete000 Oct 18 2017, 11:58 AM

I am interested, but only in the Bluetooth programmable model.

Keep me in the loop.

Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2017, 12:05 PM

Any model of just the D-jet version you posted?


Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 18 2017, 12:16 PM

Wow! If they had one for a corvair motor I would jump in. Cool product.

Posted by: Millerwelds Oct 18 2017, 12:40 PM

One key feature with these is they replace the old school NLA fuel injection trigger points with an electric pulse. Way more modern and consistent signal.

Also the Bluetooth version can be set to require a code before it will allow the car to be started. A cool security feature.

I have been wanting one for a while now and will commit to the group buy for sure.

Jump on board everyone! Read the reviews from other cars /engines too. This is a killer set up. beerchug.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 18 2017, 12:53 PM

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 18 2017, 11:05 AM) *

Any model of just the D-jet version you posted?



Good question....I.ll ask.


Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 18 2017, 01:10 PM

I'm in for one, maybe two.

Posted by: olsib914 Oct 18 2017, 02:56 PM

plus one for me
olsib 914

Posted by: Morrie Oct 18 2017, 02:59 PM

I am interested in a D-Jet unit, and possibly a BT unit for my 912.

Posted by: mmichalik Oct 18 2017, 03:09 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 18 2017, 11:53 AM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 18 2017, 11:05 AM) *

Any model of just the D-jet version you posted?



Good question....I.ll ask.


That is a good question, if he is willing to do one for a carb'ed motor, I would jump in too

Posted by: BeatNavy Oct 18 2017, 03:22 PM

Sorry to be thick, but I just want to be clear: the one that's D-Jet compatible is NOT Bluetooth programmable, correct? You can select from a number of pre-programmed advance curves (looks like 10 of the 16 apply to 914), but it doesn't work with Bluetooth. I guess the Bluetooth-programmable one is for non D-Jet (I assume because of the trigger points).

Someone please correct me if I've got this wrong. I'm interested, but want to make sure I understand.

Thanks for putting this together, Rob.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 18 2017, 03:42 PM

Rob,

My understanding of the Bluetooth app is that you can see the data on your laptop and or mobile device.

The D-jet version of thier distributor edit: There is only one choice: Switched. The blue tooth version is not available for Djet.

On their D-jet version there are aprox 20 preprogramed curves. The bluetooth capability allows you to observe the advance curve in relationship to other engine metrics. There is a You Tube of his posted. I am not sure if this is extra....again...I.ll ask.

I have a call into him just now.

I.ll update the first page tonight with the interested members and models...depending on his answers... after the Dodgers win the NLCS.


Rob

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Oct 18 2017, 06:33 PM

Hello Guys
I talked to Rob and starting Monday October 23rd, and for three weeks you can use the coupon code
914world
It will expire November 10 and be good for 10% off retail on any product I offer. When the amount of orders reaches 10 then the discount becomes 15% off retail. When that happens the additional 5% will be refunded to the cc of the first ten orders.
Orders will be filled 7-10 after the close of the 3 week period.

Hope this helps
Ed

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Oct 18 2017, 06:40 PM

914 models are available in the following
Switched with no vacuum
http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-912-914-356-vw-411e-412e-1600e-switched-w-o-vacuum-porsche-4-r-includes-spacer/
Switched with vacuum
http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-912-914-356-vw-411e-412e-1600e-switched-with-vacuum-porsche-4-r-v-includes-spacer/
Switched with D-Jet
http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-912-914-356-vw-411e-412e-1600e-type4-switched-w-bosch-jetronic-fi-porsche-4-r-v-ie-includes-spacer/
D-Jet is only available in the switched pre programmed model with the designation ie at the end.
TUNE+ is Bluetooth using an Apple or Android phone or device
http://123ignitionusa.com/bluetooth-tune-4-cylinder-for-porsche-and-volkswagon-engines-naturally-aspirated-w-spacer/
TUNE is USB connected using a pc
http://123ignitionusa.com/tune-usb-4-cylinder-for-porsche-and-volkswagon-vw-engines-naturally-aspirated-w-spacer/

They are not interchangeable. You must choose Switched, Tune+ Bluetooth or Tune Usb.

Hope this helps
Ed

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 18 2017, 05:42 PM) *

Rob,

My understanding of the Bluetooth app is that you can see the data on your laptop and or mobile device.

The D-jet version of thier distributor can be set either maually or via a blue tooth device.

On their D-jet version there are aprox 20 preprogramed curves. The bluetooth capability allows you to observe the advance curve in relationship to other engine metrics. There is a You Tube of his posted. I am not sure if this is extra....again...I.ll ask.

I have a call into him just now.

I.ll update the first page tonight with the interested members and models...depending on his answers... after the Dodgers win the NLCS.


Rob

Posted by: StratPlayer Oct 18 2017, 06:59 PM

I've been running my123 in my DJet setup for over a year now, One hellva dizzy. I love it I'm sure that the ones that purchase this dizzy won't be disappointed. Love the fact that I no longer have trigger points. Car runs great.

Posted by: TJB/914 Oct 18 2017, 07:33 PM

I am in for one on my D-Jet F.I. engine.
Tom

Posted by: jim_hoyland Oct 18 2017, 08:08 PM

Do they make one compatible with L-Jet FI ?

Posted by: SKL1 Oct 18 2017, 08:47 PM

I'd be interested in the one appropriate for a carbed (and with Webcam) engine. Not sure which one that is other than one not for the FI...


Also, curious if they are a larger diameter like the Mallory- I had to modify the sheetmetal on my '71 to get it to fit.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 18 2017, 10:22 PM

Obviously I.ve asked Ed to speak for this as i am only interested in the D-jet model.

All models that he offers are applicable to the group buy according to Ed and as long as he has a head count by Monday we are good to go. and any questions can be addressed to Ed.

I.ll keep the thread bumped if neccesarry for the next three weeks.

Posted by: Mueller Oct 19 2017, 12:04 AM

QUOTE(jim_hoyland @ Oct 18 2017, 07:08 PM) *

Do they make one compatible with L-Jet FI ?



Jim, I might be wrong, however I believe I am correct with the following:


Any of these 914 type distributors would work, however no reason to pay the extra money for the D-Jet specific version for your application.

5 different versions, priced lowest to highest:

1st. Very basic, no vacuum advance or retard (16 curves, based on factory curves and cannot be modified)(dip or rotary switch inside or on the side of distributor?)

2nd. Basic with vacuum advance (16 curves, based on factory curves and cannot be modified)(dip or rotary switch inside or on the side of distributor?)

3rd. Same as 2nd version except can trigger D-Jet injectors (thru the ECU)

4th. With vacuum and fully programmable curve for 2 curves, the second curve is "activated" by a toggle switch, curve #1 is 0vdc, curve #2 activated by supplying 12vdc to yellow wire. (I believe you can flip the switch on the fly, no mention of not being able to do that in the manual) With computer hooked up you can "tune" and play with settings and create the 2 curves.

5th. Full tilt boogie version... vac, fully programmable and Turbo or Supercharger friendly with boost retard. If I am correct, not able to change entire curve settings while motor is running, you can tune and create a curve, but not able to go from curve 1 to curve 2 while driving. Without loading the app, I would think you could create many curves to play with. Just remember that if you use the PIN feature to disable the ignition you are screwed if you loose or break your phone (you could borrow and load the app on another phone if you know your PIN I would hope)

If I am wrong , please let me know so I can edit or delete.



Posted by: Porschef Oct 19 2017, 05:35 AM

QUOTE(jim_hoyland @ Oct 18 2017, 10:08 PM) *

Do they make one compatible with L-Jet FI ?




I'm guessing option 2 Jim???

Running Ljet also.


popcorn[1].gif

Posted by: JoeD Oct 19 2017, 05:53 AM

I'm running the 123Ignition on my Raby 2270 with dual carbs and have been for a year or so. I do not have the bluetooth version.

I think mine was the first build Jake did with the 123, and I know he was really happy with how he was able to fine tune it on the dyno. I've put a couple thousand miles on the car and it has been phenomenal. So far it's been bullet-proof.

I'm about to buy another one for my 240Z build. biggrin.gif

Posted by: nditiz1 Oct 19 2017, 05:56 AM

QUOTE(SKL1 @ Oct 18 2017, 06:47 PM) *

I'd be interested in the one appropriate for a carbed (and with Webcam) engine. Not sure which one that is other than one not for the FI...


Also, curious if they are a larger diameter like the Mallory- I had to modify the sheetmetal on my '71 to get it to fit.

agree.gif

Also interested

Posted by: jim_hoyland Oct 19 2017, 06:13 AM

QUOTE(Porschef @ Oct 19 2017, 04:35 AM) *

QUOTE(jim_hoyland @ Oct 18 2017, 10:08 PM) *

Do they make one compatible with L-Jet FI ?




I'm guessing option 2 Jim???

Running Ljet also.


popcorn[1].gif


? or #1 if no vac advance ?

Posted by: McMark Oct 19 2017, 07:15 AM

Mueller is right in his descriptions. I added a similar list, with links to the first post. I think I also clarified the ordering process. To reiterate, order your distributor now with the code '914world' and those orders will be queued/held and will all ship together sometime in Mid-November.

I STRONGLY recommend the bluetooth unit (#4 in the first post) for ALL ENGINES, except D-Jet. It costs a little more, but if you can afford it, make the jump and get bluetooth.
D-Jet users only have one choice.

Another note about the bluetooth distributor, once the curve is set into the unit, you never need to connect to the device again. The unit will run autonomously for normal driving. The phone/bluetooth connection is only used when you need the change the tune. For most people this will be set it once, then forget about it and it's just a 'normal' distributor.

Posted by: nditiz1 Oct 19 2017, 07:31 AM

914world code doesn't work confused24.gif

Attached Image

Posted by: Philip W. Oct 19 2017, 07:33 AM

I have been thinking about this for some time and waiting , looks like the time is now, 15% discount will be nice!

I am in for a D-jet version !

+1 for me.

Phil

Posted by: Philip W. Oct 19 2017, 07:35 AM

QUOTE(123ignitionusa @ Oct 18 2017, 08:33 PM) *

Hello Guys
I talked to Rob and starting Monday October 23rd, and for three weeks you can use the coupon code
914world
It will expire November 10 and be good for 10% off retail on any product I offer. When the amount of orders reaches 10 then the discount becomes 15% off retail. When that happens the additional 5% will be refunded to the cc of the first ten orders.
Orders will be filled 7-10 after the close of the 3 week period.

Hope this helps
Ed
QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Oct 19 2017, 09:31 AM) *

914world code doesn't work confused24.gif

Attached Image



he said starts Monday the 23rd I believe....

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 19 2017, 07:41 AM

I bought one of these for my BMW2002 when the 2002 forum did a group buy last year. I've yet to run into someone on the 2002 forums that regrets putting one of these in.

Seriously folks. Get one. If I was not running McMarks EFI on my 914, I'd be buying one of these for my 914 too.

IMO, you want the bluetooth tune-able version. Its not much more money, and gives you the advantages of a tune-able spark curve.

Zach

Posted by: nditiz1 Oct 19 2017, 07:55 AM

QUOTE



he said starts Monday the 23rd I believe....


Thanks Phil - I missed that post rolleyes.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 08:02 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 19 2017, 06:15 AM) *

Mueller is right in his descriptions. I added a similar list, with links to the first post. I think I also clarified the ordering process. To reiterate, order your distributor now with the code '914world' and those orders will be queued/held and will all ship together sometime in Mid-November.

I STRONGLY recommend the bluetooth unit (#4 in the first post) for ALL ENGINES, except D-Jet. It costs a little more, but if you can afford it, make the jump and get bluetooth.
D-Jet users only have one choice.

Another note about the bluetooth distributor, once the curve is set into the unit, you never need to connect to the device again. The unit will run autonomously for normal driving. The phone/bluetooth connection is only used when you need the change the tune. For most people this will be set it once, then forget about it and it's just a 'normal' distributor.



Thanks Mark and Mike.


The code won.t work until Sunday. He wanted to make sure there was interest in the first five which there looks like there is.

I.m running bone stoxk D-jet so I know my choice.

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 08:15 AM

FYI page 1 Specifications

Temperature : -30 to 95 degrees Celsius

I haven't confirmed if this is ambiant temp or operating.
I bought it 3 weeks and I'm having issues with heat.
I started a thread but haven't updated it.
We have had hot weather 95 and up .
With temps in the 70's she runs great but above 85 she starts pinging on hard acceleration.
Been a Dr. Jeckell Mr. Hyde experience, latest test 100 octane fuel.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 19 2017, 08:33 AM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 10:15 AM) *

FYI page 1 Specifications

Temperature : -30 to 95 degrees Celsius

I haven't confirmed if this is ambiant temp or operating.
I bought it 3 weeks and I'm having issues with heat.
I started a thread but haven't updated it.
We have had hot weather 95 and up .
With temps in the 70's she runs great but above 85 she starts pinging on hard acceleration.
Been a Dr. Jeckell Mr. Hyde experience, latest test 100 octane fuel.


I remember your thread.
Did you ever call them and ask them about it? These dizzys are running in engines all over the place, in climates just like yours (and warmer) without issue. Yours may have an issue (defective out of the box - it does happen), or it needs to be re-tuned. You should not need 100 octane fuel and should not be pinging under what would be considered normal operating conditions.

My experience with the 123 people (and others in the BMW community) is that the customer support is pretty darned good.

IMO, they could not sell these things if the upper range of operation was only 95 degrees. On a moderate day, its often over 110 under the hood of a normal car.

Zach

Posted by: Edward Blume Oct 19 2017, 08:38 AM

Would the GB include the /6 distributor? Anybody use one for a 2.4 / 2.7 / 3.0?

Posted by: Philip W. Oct 19 2017, 08:43 AM

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ Oct 19 2017, 10:33 AM) *

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 10:15 AM) *

FYI page 1 Specifications

Temperature : -30 to 95 degrees Celsius

I haven't confirmed if this is ambiant temp or operating.
I bought it 3 weeks and I'm having issues with heat.
I started a thread but haven't updated it.
We have had hot weather 95 and up .
With temps in the 70's she runs great but above 85 she starts pinging on hard acceleration.
Been a Dr. Jeckell Mr. Hyde experience, latest test 100 octane fuel.


I remember your thread.
Did you ever call them and ask them about it? These dizzys are running in engines all over the place, in climates just like yours (and warmer) without issue. Yours may have an issue (defective out of the box - it does happen), or it needs to be re-tuned. You should not need 100 octane fuel and should not be pinging under what would be considered normal operating conditions.

My experience with the 123 people (and others in the BMW community) is that the customer support is pretty darned good.

IMO, they could not sell these things if the upper range of operation was only 95 degrees. On a moderate day, its often over 110 under the hood of a normal car.

Zach


I hope Zach is right because around here in the summer its going to be on average in the middle to upper 90's - of course I don't drive the car much on those days , unless I get the A/C thing figured out bynext year.

Keep us posted on your experience with this mgphoto please!


Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 08:52 AM

95 C is 202 F

Hunh....well it will be in the 90's this weekend. Update your thread.


Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 08:54 AM

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ Oct 19 2017, 07:33 AM) *

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 10:15 AM) *

FYI page 1 Specifications

Temperature : -30 to 95 degrees Celsius

I haven't confirmed if this is ambiant temp or operating.
I bought it 3 weeks and I'm having issues with heat.
I started a thread but haven't updated it.
We have had hot weather 95 and up .
With temps in the 70's she runs great but above 85 she starts pinging on hard acceleration.
Been a Dr. Jeckell Mr. Hyde experience, latest test 100 octane fuel.


I remember your thread.
Did you ever call them and ask them about it? These dizzys are running in engines all over the place, in climates just like yours (and warmer) without issue. Yours may have an issue (defective out of the box - it does happen), or it needs to be re-tuned. You should not need 100 octane fuel and should not be pinging under what would be considered normal operating conditions.

My experience with the 123 people (and others in the BMW community) is that the customer support is pretty darned good.

IMO, they could not sell these things if the upper range of operation was only 95 degrees. On a moderate day, its often over 110 under the hood of a normal car.

Zach



I know huh.

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 08:56 AM

I'm not at the debug with the manufacture yet, I'm trying to rule out all my mistakes first.
I'm just saying 95*C?

European website states 100*

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 09:07 AM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 07:56 AM) *

I'm not at the debug with the manufacture yet, I'm trying to rule out all my mistakes first.
I'm just saying 95*C?

European website states 100*



Well finish your thread .....you can list what you think your mistakes are and maybe we can learn something.


Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 19 2017, 09:08 AM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 10:56 AM) *

I'm not at the debug with the manufacture yet, I'm trying to rule out all my mistakes first.
I'm just saying 95*C?

European website states 100*


100*C is 212*F (I think. Shoot now I'm doubting my metric. I think 100*C is the point where water boils....)

I checked, I'm good. So if your unit is rated to 100*C ambient, that equates to 212*F ambient. I don't care where you live, if the ambient temps can boil water, you have concerns larger then driving around. ;-)

You should be well within spec. I'd still call 123 and talk to someone, or start the email conversation. As the guy who puts off doing these things (just ask McMark), I can tell you it gets easier when you just suck it up and admit when you need a bit of help. I'm STILL learning that lesson. slap.gif I've wasted about 3 years on my build due to being stubborn.

Zach

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 09:13 AM

I agree with Zach....my coffee is kicking in.


Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 09:25 AM

Sorry that project and gam-gam have to wait, I'm in the middle of a paint cycle.


Attached Image

Posted by: Jett Oct 19 2017, 09:57 AM

I’m in for. DJet version.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 10:14 AM

Okay cool.

Ed asked me to get a head count. I.ll update the first page. I.m in for sure so we only need 4 more for the 10% and then 5 more in three weeks for then extra 5%.

I personally am not comcerned about temperature issues.

What this means is that my new dizzy is about 4 weeks out with shipping and my plan is to install it in my 1.7 and keep the stock onenas a spare. Once the 2.0 is done I.ll swap back.

I.ll update the first page when I get home from work.

Posted by: pvollma Oct 19 2017, 12:59 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 19 2017, 12:22 AM) *

Obviously I.ve asked Ed to speak for this as i am only interested in the D-jet model.

All models that he offers are applicable to the group buy according to Ed and as long as he has a head count by Monday we are good to go. and any questions can be addressed to Ed.

I.ll keep the thread bumped if neccesarry for the next three weeks.

I'm in for 1 D-Jet model.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 19 2017, 01:23 PM

So for the D-Jet model, am I to understand that:

"Hardcoded advance curves with no vacuum, no bluetooth, with output for D-Jet This is the unit to choose for stock D-Jet users."

This means no more need for the NLA vacuum can and the advance/retard ports it would connect to on the throttle body can be capped off? This is also a replacement solution for the trigger points.

Si? Please confirm.

What mechanism exactly replaces the trigger points and is it electronic or mechanical (can it wear out)? Can these dizzys be repaired/rebuilt/serviced either DIY or by sending back the the mfr?

If so, this sounds like a great solution for the HTF/NLA trigger points and vacuum cans.

There would be no reason now to replace D-jet injection because of HTF /non-existent parts. All wear parts are available MPS, trigger points, injectors, harnesses, sensors.

Posted by: Mueller Oct 19 2017, 01:36 PM

Looking at the manual, D-Jet specific distributor can be ordered with a vacuum option, add V before the IE in the part number. No idea if needed or wanted for a D-Jet vehicle.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 19 2017, 02:01 PM

I thought if it had 'hardcoded advance curves" a vacuum can for advance/retard would be redundant and unnecessary. My stock '74 2.0L does not have a vacuum advance, only retard, but the 73 2.0L has an advance.

Does this 123 dizzy for stock D-jet provide the advance/retard functions to replace the vacuum can?

Posted by: jd74914 Oct 19 2017, 02:05 PM

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 19 2017, 03:01 PM) *

I thought if it had 'hardcoded advance curves" a vacuum can for advance/retard would be redundant and unnecessary. My stock '74 2.0L does not have a vacuum advance, only retard, but the 73 2.0L has an advance.

Does this 123 dizzy for stock D-jet provide the advance/retard functions to replace the vacuum can?

This is just an assumption, but I doubt it has mechanical vacuum advance/retard. I would think there would be an integral MAP sensor which then allowed use of a 3D timing table with engine speed and manifold pressure axes vs. a 2D with only engine speed.

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 03:15 PM

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 19 2017, 01:01 PM) *

I thought if it had 'hardcoded advance curves" a vacuum can for advance/retard would be redundant and unnecessary. My stock '74 2.0L does not have a vacuum advance, only retard, but the 73 2.0L has an advance.

Does this 123 dizzy for stock D-jet provide the advance/retard functions to replace the vacuum can?

Single vacuum port, if I have it correct the '74 D-Jet retard port only should connect to the dizzy vacuum port and switch set to B.
'73 advance port connects to dizzy and switch set to #1.
But I could be wrong.


Attached Image

Posted by: pete000 Oct 19 2017, 03:24 PM

QUOTE(Edward Blume @ Oct 19 2017, 07:38 AM) *

Would the GB include the /6 distributor? Anybody use one for a 2.4 / 2.7 / 3.0?



Inquiring minds want to know.

I also have a friend with a Fiat that would probably buy if the discount could apply.

Posted by: pete000 Oct 19 2017, 03:25 PM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 08:25 AM) *

Sorry that project and gam-gam have to wait, I'm in the middle of a paint cycle.


Attached Image



That looks familiar! welder.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 04:24 PM

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 19 2017, 01:01 PM) *

I thought if it had 'hardcoded advance curves" a vacuum can for advance/retard would be redundant and unnecessary. My stock '74 2.0L does not have a vacuum advance, only retard, but the 73 2.0L has an advance.

Does this 123 dizzy for stock D-jet provide the advance/retard functions to replace the vacuum can?


This is a great question and I had paid it particular attention.

Brad Anders addressed the stock functional characteristics last year to his web page. The change came in 74 apparently.

I am assuming.....and that is a BIG word that the vacuum porting is for the retard function.

It also matters which port that pipes to rhe dizzy. Retard ports are in a different location as noted in your drawing Jeff.

I need to also make this confirmation as well as the TB I have is a 74. I think I.m going to call Ed about this. I am curious if those that have one on Djet set up on stock system alteady can answer this?



Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 04:25 PM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 02:15 PM) *

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 19 2017, 01:01 PM) *

I thought if it had 'hardcoded advance curves" a vacuum can for advance/retard would be redundant and unnecessary. My stock '74 2.0L does not have a vacuum advance, only retard, but the 73 2.0L has an advance.

Does this 123 dizzy for stock D-jet provide the advance/retard functions to replace the vacuum can?

Single vacuum port, if I have it correct the '74 D-Jet retard port only should connect to the dizzy vacuum port and switch set to B.
'73 advance port connects to dizzy and switch set to #1.
But I could be wrong.


Attached Image




Yes you could be.

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 04:39 PM

[/quote]
Single vacuum port, if I have it correct the '74 D-Jet retard port only should connect to the dizzy vacuum port and switch set to B.
'73 advance port connects to dizzy and switch set to #1.
But I could be wrong.

[/quote]



Yes you could be.
[/quote]


From the install manual.

Attached Image

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 04:44 PM

QUOTE(pete000 @ Oct 19 2017, 02:25 PM) *

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 19 2017, 08:25 AM) *

Sorry that project and gam-gam have to wait, I'm in the middle of a paint cycle.


Attached Image



That looks familiar! welder.gif

Blocked and shot with sealer, tomorrow color.
Thanks pete000

Mike

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 05:15 PM

[quote name='mgphoto' date='Oct 19 2017, 03:39 PM' post='2539516']
[/quote]
Single vacuum port, if I have it correct the '74 D-Jet retard port only should connect to the dizzy vacuum port and switch set to B.
'73 advance port connects to dizzy and switch set to #1.
But I could be wrong.

[/quote]



Yes you could be.
[/quote]


From the install manual.

Attached Image
[/quote]


So for the benifit of the other readers what year is your D-jet system and what vacum port did you tap for the 123 Dizzy.

Can you post picture of the distributor installed and leave the hood on another thread please?

Thanks.

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 19 2017, 05:19 PM

Who ever installed stratplayer's (Jim) should know the details. Does the 123 take the MPS out of the equation?

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 05:38 PM

No Kevin,

Trigger points and vacuum advance can. Two NLA items.

Good idea. Jims is a stock 74 IIRC?

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 06:04 PM

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 19 2017, 12:23 PM) *

So for the D-Jet model, am I to understand that:

"Hardcoded advance curves with no vacuum, no bluetooth, with output for D-Jet This is the unit to choose for stock D-Jet users."

This means no more need for the NLA vacuum can and the advance/retard ports it would connect to on the throttle body can be capped off? This is also a replacement solution for the trigger points.

Si? Please confirm.

What mechanism exactly replaces the trigger points and is it electronic or mechanical (can it wear out)? Can these dizzys be repaired/rebuilt/serviced either DIY or by sending back the the mfr?

If so, this sounds like a great solution for the HTF/NLA trigger points and vacuum cans.

There would be no reason now to replace D-jet injection because of HTF /non-existent parts. All wear parts are available MPS, trigger points, injectors, harnesses, sensors.




Yes Jeff.

Here is the answer I got from Ed on the tempeture question and the vacuum port question:

On the switch model there are five curves that have vacuum advance and five curves that have vacuum retard.
It modulates the vacuum curve when a hose is hooked up to the device. If there's no vacuum it doesn't change the Curve.
The 95 degrees has not been a problem with any other VW or Porsche applications.


I.m getting it.

Posted by: StratPlayer Oct 19 2017, 06:05 PM

Mine is a 76 D Jet, 2056. The install was easy just follow the install instructions and it will be easy. I will take some pics of my setup tomorrow and post them. We set the curve on my setup to 4. Car runs like a raped ape.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 06:07 PM

.....oh yea it uses a Hall Effect sensor to trigger the injectors from what I was told.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 06:08 PM

QUOTE(StratPlayer @ Oct 19 2017, 05:05 PM) *

Mine is a 76 D Jet, 2056. The install was easy just follow the install instructions and it will be easy. I will take some pics of my setup tomorrow and post them. We set the curve on my setup to 4. Car runs like a raped ape.



Thanks Jim.

Posted by: StratPlayer Oct 19 2017, 06:08 PM

Here is the dizzy that I'm using. When it was installed a new blue coil was installed with it.
https://www.123ignitionshop.com/gb/porsche/235-123porsche4rvieset.html

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 19 2017, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(pete000 @ Oct 19 2017, 02:24 PM) *

QUOTE(Edward Blume @ Oct 19 2017, 07:38 AM) *

Would the GB include the /6 distributor? Anybody use one for a 2.4 / 2.7 / 3.0?



Inquiring minds want to know.

I also have a friend with a Fiat that would probably buy if the discount could apply.



Can.t answer for -6 but the discount for any other model would apply to the discount for three weeks Pete.

Posted by: Amphicar770 Oct 19 2017, 07:22 PM

I will go for one. Just need to make sure that t his is the correct (and only) option for my 1974 2.0, completely stock???

http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-912-914-356-vw-411e-412e-1600e-type4-switched-w-bosch-jetronic-fi-porsche-4-r-v-ie-includes-spacer/

Posted by: bandjoey Oct 19 2017, 08:09 PM

Can someone explain the Bluetooth part? What does it do and how does it effect the motor or drive Ability?

Posted by: jd74914 Oct 19 2017, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(bandjoey @ Oct 19 2017, 09:09 PM) *

Can someone explain the Bluetooth part? What does it do and how does it effect the motor or drive Ability?

It's so you can custom tune your advance curve rather than use the preset curves, something that could be useful with a non-stock motor or if you like fine tuning. If you're not the kind of person who is going to fiddle with your exact ignition timing and just want a more reliable, modern components it's really not necessary.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 19 2017, 09:39 PM

I found the manual for these and it has a list of the advance curve presets and comparable stock dizzys but...didn't see one listed for my stock 74 2.0L 205A dizzy. What to do?

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 19 2017, 11:20 PM

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 19 2017, 08:39 PM) *

I found the manual for these and it has a list of the advance curve presets and comparable stock dizzys but...didn't see one listed for my stock 74 2.0L 205A dizzy. What to do?


The 205A is Bosch # 0231 174 011 with retard only throttle body for '74. Switch position B according to the install manual page I posted earlier.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 19 2017, 11:28 PM

Aha! They used the Bosch PN. Muchas gracias...

Posted by: euro911 Oct 20 2017, 12:36 AM

OK, building up my wife's 71 1.7L motor to a 1.9L, keeping the stock D-jet system. I don't remember if the OEM distributor had a vacuum can on it or not ... guess I'd better locate it and take a peek.

I'm tentatively in, pending verification of which model # I'll need (vacuum option or not) confused24.gif

Posted by: BeatNavy Oct 20 2017, 06:12 AM

Placed my order this morning. Coupon code "914World" wasn't working last night but it is this morning.

Looking forward to dialing the curve to the "raped ape" setting smile.gif

Thanks again for getting this going, Rob.

Posted by: Philip W. Oct 20 2017, 06:20 AM

So I have a 75 2.0 but with a TB from a 73, I guess its the same non-blue tooth model, I just select the proper setting depending on whether or not I have the advance, retard or both? I have both on mine....

Posted by: nditiz1 Oct 20 2017, 09:23 AM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Oct 20 2017, 04:12 AM) *

Placed my order this morning. Coupon code "914World" wasn't working last night but it is this morning.

Looking forward to dialing the curve to the "raped ape" setting smile.gif

Thanks again for getting this going, Rob.


Rob - I'm right there with ya. Just ordered opt #4 from OG post. Coupon is live for those that can't wait drooley.gif

Posted by: pete000 Oct 20 2017, 09:36 AM

Ordering today... smilie_pokal.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 20 2017, 10:42 AM

Order Placed.

This will be interesting.


Posted by: CMONNETT Oct 20 2017, 02:44 PM

Order Placed.

Posted by: TJB/914 Oct 20 2017, 03:15 PM

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 18 2017, 09:33 PM) *

I am in for one on my D-Jet F.I. engine.
Tom



I just placed my order for my 1974 914 2.0 D-Jet F.I. (Original) stock with a few internal mods.

combo=123/Porsche-4-R-V-IE distributor (injection) + coil +spark Plug wires (black) biggrin.gif

Hope I ordered the correct one for my 914.

Tom

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 20 2017, 05:16 PM

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 20 2017, 02:15 PM) *

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 18 2017, 09:33 PM) *

I am in for one on my D-Jet F.I. engine.
Tom



I just placed my order for my 1974 914 2.0 D-Jet F.I. (Original) stock with a few internal mods.

combo=123/Porsche-4-R-V-IE distributor (injection) + coil +spark Plug wires (black) biggrin.gif

Hope I ordered the correct one for my 914.

Tom



This is exactly what I am building and the same one I ordered.

Posted by: TJB/914 Oct 20 2017, 07:16 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 20 2017, 07:16 PM) *

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 20 2017, 02:15 PM) *

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 18 2017, 09:33 PM) *

I am in for one on my D-Jet F.I. engine.
Tom



I just placed my order for my 1974 914 2.0 D-Jet F.I. (Original) stock with a few internal mods.

combo=123/Porsche-4-R-V-IE distributor (injection) + coil +spark Plug wires (black) biggrin.gif

Hope I ordered the correct one for my 914.

Tom



This is exactly what I am building and the same one I order


914-teener,

Thanks for your confirmation. pray.gif I was hoping someone would comment on my concerns. It was based on our expert 914 opinions (Bowlsby-Beat Navy-Etc-Etc) to select this combo.
Hey Bowlsby I also selected black spark plug wires laugh.gif
Tom

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 20 2017, 08:23 PM

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 20 2017, 06:16 PM) *

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 20 2017, 07:16 PM) *

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 20 2017, 02:15 PM) *

QUOTE(TJB/914 @ Oct 18 2017, 09:33 PM) *

I am in for one on my D-Jet F.I. engine.
Tom



I just placed my order for my 1974 914 2.0 D-Jet F.I. (Original) stock with a few internal mods.

combo=123/Porsche-4-R-V-IE distributor (injection) + coil +spark Plug wires (black) biggrin.gif

Hope I ordered the correct one for my 914.

Tom






This is exactly what I am building and the same one I order


914-teener,

Thanks for your confirmation. pray.gif I was hoping someone would comment on my concerns. It was based on our expert 914 opinions (Bowlsby-Beat Navy-Etc-Etc) to select this combo.
Hey Bowlsby I also selected black spark plug wires laugh.gif
Tom



Well...I don't know if I'm an "expert" but I have read a lot on the curves on the stock distrubutors. Last year I had gathered what I thought was a workable distributor that I could use for a 2.0 build that will use a 74 stock D-jet setup. Turns out the distributor parts are all worn out and two ....NLA. All the other components besides the MPS were workable. Jeff Bowlsby did rebuild the MPS and it has been tested.

So after doing a LOT of reading I had decided to contact this company about their product and talked to a few members that already have it.

I want everybody to know...and I don't know how it was done...but I didn't edit my first post in this thread making the recommendations. I thoroughly read through the brochure and did contact Ed personally with several phone calls. According to my notes and conversations this is the one for a 74 D-jet system. The vacuum port is optional.

Last year Brad Anders wanted to know where the curves were published and then did a pretty good addition to his website on the history and operation of the distributors. If you haven't read it, makes for a good understanding of the advance theory and why Porsche changed it through the years. Dave Darling also published a chart on the distributors on the Bird Board. As Murphy's law would have it...I had the 205B with a question mark on the reference table. So, unknown.

What I can tell you is, that if you have a 74 D-jet setup, I have purchased the same one you have. I started the thread to save a few bucks and help others whom might be enthusiasts like me struggling to find parts for these cars and still try to emulate the stock look or performance.

I think you'll be just fine.

Rob

Posted by: McMark Oct 21 2017, 10:30 AM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 20 2017, 10:23 PM) *

I want everybody to know...and I don't know how it was done...but I didn't edit my first post in this thread making the recommendations. I thoroughly read through the brochure and did contact Ed personally with several phone calls. According to my notes and conversations this is the one for a 74 D-jet system. The vacuum port is optional.

Whoops, that was me. I thought it would be helpful to put all the info up front. Your post above has made me rethink that practice. I should have at least PM'd you. pinch.gif Sorry! sad.gif slap.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 21 2017, 11:27 AM

It.s okay Mark....figured biggrin.gif

Posted by: Bsherrard Oct 21 2017, 11:41 AM

Just placed my order for the Bluetooth model for the engine I am currently rebuilding for my 1976 Porsche 912E. It is bored and stroked to 2270 (based upon the Raby 912E engines). Hope we get to the 15% Discount!!!
Brook

Posted by: Morrie Oct 21 2017, 01:04 PM

Ordered my D-Jet unit today. This will be interesting too, once we all get ours and install, to hear the various experiences.

Still not totally clear to me if I should be connecting the vac advance or retard lines, since the 76 has both, but this has to be a good step in the right direction. I will get my hands on a spare distributor clamp, and leave my original all timed and in the tool bag. That way if there are any issues (all electronic guys, functionality is usually binary, either works or doesn't) I have a spare to drop in at side of the road.

Looking forward to getting mine. Now to go count how many have ordered to see if we are going to hit the 15% number!

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 21 2017, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(Morrie @ Oct 21 2017, 12:04 PM) *

Ordered my D-Jet unit today. This will be interesting too, once we all get ours and install, to hear the various experiences.

Still not totally clear to me if I should be connecting the vac advance or retard lines, since the 76 has both, but this has to be a good step in the right direction. I will get my hands on a spare distributor clamp, and leave my original all timed and in the tool bag. That way if there are any issues (all electronic guys, functionality is usually binary, either works or doesn't) I have a spare to drop in at side of the road.

Looking forward to getting mine. Now to go count how many have ordered to see if we are going to hit the 15% number!



Pretty sure we have five now.

With respect to the advance or retard question read Brad Anders site and then the instruction manual.

It is interesting and will answer your question.

I will also end up with a spare distributor..."just in case".

Posted by: SKL1 Oct 21 2017, 08:00 PM

Just talked to Ed today- probably don't need the bluetooth option but may get it to have for the future. Just need to make sure that model has the 16 or so preset advance curves in it if I don't need or want to get "fancy" right off the bat.
Not sure I'm smart enough to use the bluetooth option anyway! smile.gif

Posted by: olsib914 Oct 21 2017, 08:17 PM

Ordered for my D-Jet stock Also have one for my Volvo ES
Olsib914

Posted by: pete000 Oct 21 2017, 10:34 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 21 2017, 01:04 PM) *

QUOTE(Morrie @ Oct 21 2017, 12:04 PM) *

Ordered my D-Jet unit today. This will be interesting too, once we all get ours and install, to hear the various experiences.

Still not totally clear to me if I should be connecting the vac advance or retard lines, since the 76 has both, but this has to be a good step in the right direction. I will get my hands on a spare distributor clamp, and leave my original all timed and in the tool bag. That way if there are any issues (all electronic guys, functionality is usually binary, either works or doesn't) I have a spare to drop in at side of the road.

Looking forward to getting mine. Now to go count how many have ordered to see if we are going to hit the 15% number!



Pretty sure we have five now.

With respect to the advance or retard question read Brad Anders site and then the instruction manual.

It is interesting and will answer your question.

I will also end up with a spare distributor..."just in case".



That was a good read ! Thanks for sharing.

Posted by: pete000 Oct 21 2017, 10:58 PM

Just ordered mine, Bluetooth version for my L-Jet 1.8

Order people !, need that additional 5% !!!

Posted by: Morrie Oct 22 2017, 09:41 AM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 21 2017, 03:04 PM) *
With respect to the advance or retard question read Brad Anders site and then the instruction manual.

It is interesting and will answer your question.


Thanks for the good advice here. After reading Brad's page on distributors, and looking at the 123 manual again, it seems pretty clear that there are no performance advantages to connecting the vacuum retard. It was to improve emissions results, and only served to degrade performance at low speeds until the throttle was opened enough to take it out of the equation.

The 123 manual page shows that there is a single vacuum port that can be electronically configured to either provide vacuum advance (settings 1-8) or vacuum retard (settings 9-F). That probably leaves settings 1-8 as the viable options, aside from capping off the vacuum port entirely.

Thanks again for the good advice. Appreciate it!


Posted by: Morrie Oct 22 2017, 09:44 AM

QUOTE(pete000 @ Oct 21 2017, 11:58 PM) *

Just ordered mine, Bluetooth version for my L-Jet 1.8

Order people !, need that additional 5% !!!


I count 8, maybe 9 ordered right now....... beerchug.gif

Posted by: 1adam12 Oct 22 2017, 12:47 PM

I thought this distributor looked familiar. I ran across this 914 install a few months ago on YouTube. How's everyone's German!?
https://youtu.be/rw1FigYoozE

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 22 2017, 03:51 PM

Weekend Bump and Count added.

icon_bump.gif

Posted by: Mueller Oct 22 2017, 04:38 PM

For those have the programmable units already, any tests using a stock curve and then a "tuned" curve following 123ignitions lessons?


http://123ignitionusa.com/123ignition-lessons/


Posted by: euro911 Oct 22 2017, 06:53 PM

QUOTE(1adam12 @ Oct 22 2017, 11:47 AM) *
I thought this distributor looked familiar. I ran across this 914 install a few months ago on YouTube. How's everyone's German!?
https://youtu.be/rw1FigYoozE
I understood the eins, zwei, drei perfectly - laugh.gif

He posted a second video ... and you can see those awesome ATS Classic wheels on his car cheer.gif

Posted by: euro911 Oct 22 2017, 06:54 PM

Can someone post a link to Brad's write-up on these distributors - gotta make sure I ordered the correct one sad.gif

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 22 2017, 08:02 PM

QUOTE(1adam12 @ Oct 22 2017, 11:47 AM) *

I thought this distributor looked familiar. I ran across this 914 install a few months ago on YouTube. How's everyone's German!?
https://youtu.be/rw1FigYoozE



I think it's Dutch, but I could be wrong.

Posted by: pete000 Oct 22 2017, 10:05 PM

Can some one post the stock ignition curves for the 1.7, 1.8, and the 2.0

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 22 2017, 10:39 PM

QUOTE(pete000 @ Oct 22 2017, 09:05 PM) *

Can some one post the stock ignition curves for the 1.7, 1.8, and the 2.0



Attached Image

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 22 2017, 10:49 PM

https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/distributor.htm

Additional Info.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 23 2017, 12:49 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 22 2017, 09:39 PM) *

Attached Image


Been a while since I pulled that data out of the factory diagrams, but I think I converted the RPMs to engine RPM, not distributor RPM. (Dizzy turns at half speed.) I don't think I did anything to the advance/retard figures, though.

--DD

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 23 2017, 01:19 PM

So degrees at the crank. Pulled these off a Bird Board post.

Somewhere there are the plotted curves.....couldn.t find the url where I saw them.



Posted by: Millerwelds Oct 23 2017, 03:52 PM

Order placed. 15% discount was applied. beerchug.gif
Thanks for setting up the group buy!

Posted by: pete000 Oct 23 2017, 05:46 PM

QUOTE(Millerwelds @ Oct 23 2017, 02:52 PM) *

Order placed. 15% discount was applied. beerchug.gif
Thanks for setting up the group buy!

aktion035.gif

Posted by: BeatNavy Oct 23 2017, 05:53 PM

QUOTE(pete000 @ Oct 23 2017, 07:46 PM) *

QUOTE(Millerwelds @ Oct 23 2017, 02:52 PM) *

Order placed. 15% discount was applied. beerchug.gif
Thanks for setting up the group buy!

aktion035.gif

Yup, I got a message about additional discount being applied to my previous order just after Miller posted. He took us over the line. smilie_pokal.gif

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Oct 23 2017, 06:10 PM

Thanks gentlemen, 15% is now active as you know. Purchases will be sent out in the order they were placed. I will let you know when orders are ready to post.
Thanks Ed

Posted by: Philip W. Oct 23 2017, 06:32 PM

my order is placed and paid for my order number and it up being 915!

unfortunately i will not get to test it out for a few months- motor gets pulled and car goes to paint in a week, should be done by Christmas so i guess i can tell my wife I bought my Christmas present!

oh, and big thanks to Ed for this deal.

Posted by: SKL1 Oct 23 2017, 08:12 PM

Calling Ed tomorrow to make sure I'm ordering the right one- glad it will be 15%off!!
Another reason to spend time here at 914 world!

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Oct 24 2017, 06:11 AM

It has been brought to my attention that at least one person has not received a discount when purchasing a distributor.
The link he followed is to a retailer in Europe, not to my website.


Remember to go to http://www.123ignitionusa.com

Ordering information for you below

These three are switched. Meaning you select a pre programmed curve by a switch in the unit.
Porsche 4-R-V-IE is for D-Jet is a pre programmed unit. And is the only unit to drive your D-Jet injection system. It can also be used in a carburetted scenario.
Porshe 4-R-V is for Carburetted models. is pre programed and has vacuum
Porsche 4-R is for Carburetted models without vacuum. Is pre programmed.

These two units are for Carburetted models or L-Jet models and are completely programable.
Tune+4-R-V-P and uses Bluetooth to connect to it.
Tune 4-R-V-P uses a PC mini 5 pin USB cable to connect to it. The cable is sold separately.

Hope this helps

Thanks
Ed

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 24 2017, 08:25 AM

Ed, THANKS for posting. I think that will be very helpful information.

Zach

Posted by: Olympic 914 Oct 24 2017, 09:07 AM

Just ordered one D-jet model.


Posted by: Dave97 Oct 24 2017, 10:03 AM

My engine has 44 idf carbs with MSD box and distributor. How does the vaccum unit work and do I still keep my MSD box?

Posted by: mct Oct 24 2017, 01:54 PM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Oct 23 2017, 04:02 AM) *

QUOTE(1adam12 @ Oct 22 2017, 11:47 AM) *

I thought this distributor looked familiar. I ran across this 914 install a few months ago on YouTube. How's everyone's German!?
https://youtu.be/rw1FigYoozE



I think it's Dutch, but I could be wrong.



Nono,
ju arr verry rong. Sis is von handred perr sent Dsherman se gai iss speekink. Se kampani iss Datsh sou.....


Have the BT model in my 2l bus and it is a charm. No swappin points, plug&play, fire&forget, what have you. Dunno 'bout longevity, but as it reduces mechanical parts it should work all right in the Long run. Always gonna be haters/purists of course. It also gives you nice data on temp, MAP, RPMs, crankshaft advance and voltage as well as GPS-based speed reading!

I´m getting one for the teener next summer...

greets from Heidelberg Germany,

Michael

Posted by: SKL1 Oct 24 2017, 03:50 PM

Anyone have the advance curve for the Bosch 050 distributor? Wonder if one of the preset curves on the 4R is close to that...

Think I'll order the 4R with 16 curve choices- don't figure I'm computer savvy enough to program the thing myself! Hell, I'm driving a 46 year old car!!

Posted by: mobymutt Oct 24 2017, 07:21 PM

I love this solution, especially the bluetooth programmable version! I can't join the group buy this time around, but maybe there will be another one in a couple of years (hint..)

Looking forward to hearing everyone's feedback on the installation and performance.

Posted by: johnwmrvw Oct 26 2017, 09:51 PM

Just ordered the 4-R-V-IE from 123(USA).
Thanks everyone for their input!

Posted by: SKL1 Oct 27 2017, 01:11 PM

Just ordered the 4R- we are well beyond the number needed for 15% off, if you're on the fence, you ought to jump on!

Posted by: Millerwelds Oct 27 2017, 01:29 PM

Just look at the comparison from stock, to Pertronix to the 123. The 123 signal is basically perfect. You should buy one!


Posted by: Mueller Oct 27 2017, 02:11 PM

QUOTE(SKL1 @ Oct 27 2017, 12:11 PM) *

Just ordered the 4R- we are well beyond the number needed for 15% off, if you're on the fence, you ought to jump on!


I jumped off the fence, figured I should stay with my Megasquirt setup, it's already paid for. There would be a lot less cussing and possible AAA tows with the stock L-Jet and a 123ignition however. We'll see.

Posted by: Olympic 914 Oct 27 2017, 06:15 PM

On the Djet models does anyone know how the 123 Dizzy hooks up to the trigger point wires? does it have the same plug as on an original dizzy or do you have to rig up jumper wires from the ECU harness to the 123 dizzy?

Rather not cut the plug off of the harness, in case I have to reinstall the original dizzy.

Posted by: StratPlayer Oct 27 2017, 06:29 PM

The 123 D jet set up will have to small wires that will plug into the pins on the plug that plugged into you old dizzy. Will show that in the install instructions that come with the dizzy.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 27 2017, 06:30 PM

FINALLY...someone brought this up. It needs to be addressed. Looks like it is just 3 wires coming out of the dizzy body and I am not aware of any available male terminals or housing that are an easy mate to the female terminals on the standard FI harness.

SOL. Best technical solution is to find a weatherproof 2 pole quick disconnect connector, male/female and mount it to the harness/dizzy. Wire cutting is involved. Not pretty but it will certainly function and be durable. I would also wrap any exposed wires from the dizzy in heat shrink tube (the dizzy should have had this from the factory).




Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: StratPlayer Oct 27 2017, 06:33 PM

My 123 dizzy for a D jet trigger points had the fittings on the end of the wires so they will plug into the harness plug, Plugged them in without any problems, been running in the car for over a year now without any problems.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 27 2017, 06:40 PM

So it comes with 2 male pins installed on the wires?

Posted by: euro911 Oct 27 2017, 07:32 PM

It sounds like it, unless Jim had someone else install it, and they did a mod? confused24.gif

If concerned about going back to the original distributor on the side of the road, splice parallel wires and an additional connector for the 123 before hand, and the OEM connector will still be intact - ready for use if needed ... idea.gif

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Oct 27 2017, 08:00 PM

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 27 2017, 08:40 PM) *

So it comes with 2 male pins installed on the wires?


Yes they come with the male spade connector.
Hope that helps
Ed

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 27 2017, 09:30 PM

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Oct 27 2017, 05:30 PM) *

FINALLY...someone brought this up. It needs to be addressed. Looks like it is just 3 wires coming out of the dizzy body and I am not aware of any available male terminals or housing that are an easy mate to the female terminals on the standard FI harness.

SOL. Best technical solution is to find a weatherproof 2 pole quick disconnect connector, male/female and mount it to the harness/dizzy. Wire cutting is involved. Not pretty but it will certainly function and be durable. I would also wrap any exposed wires from the dizzy in heat shrink tube (the dizzy should have had this from the factory).



Can you get the grey somewhere Jeff?


Posted by: euro911 Oct 27 2017, 10:28 PM

Oh, and thanks for organizing the GB, Rob ... and for hosting the GB, Ed beerchug.gif

Posted by: Morrie Oct 29 2017, 09:45 AM

QUOTE(SKL1 @ Oct 24 2017, 04:50 PM) *

Anyone have the advance curve for the Bosch 050 distributor? Wonder if one of the preset curves on the 4R is close to that...

Think I'll order the 4R with 16 curve choices- don't figure I'm computer savvy enough to program the thing myself! Hell, I'm driving a 46 year old car!!


The 050 isn't even a curve. It is pretty linear, which gives you less of an advance bump at low RPM than most of the stock Bosh units. The 009 is also plotted here.


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Posted by: 914_teener Oct 29 2017, 09:53 AM

QUOTE(Morrie @ Oct 29 2017, 08:45 AM) *

QUOTE(SKL1 @ Oct 24 2017, 04:50 PM) *

Anyone have the advance curve for the Bosch 050 distributor? Wonder if one of the preset curves on the 4R is close to that...

Think I'll order the 4R with 16 curve choices- don't figure I'm computer savvy enough to program the thing myself! Hell, I'm driving a 46 year old car!!


The 050 isn't even a curve. It is pretty linear, which gives you less of an advance bump at low RPM than most of the stock Bosh units. The 009 is also plotted here.


Attached Image



Are you sure rhose are the 914 part No distributor curves?

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 29 2017, 01:04 PM

Found the manual. Think these are them.

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Posted by: 914_teener Oct 29 2017, 02:47 PM

Looks like these are for the 1.7.

039 part prefix is for the 2.0 from Brad Anders site.

Maybe they don't exist? Given the advance noted they should be able to be plotted.

The read on the retard function is interesting on over run and part load.

Posted by: Morrie Oct 29 2017, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 29 2017, 10:53 AM) *

QUOTE(Morrie @ Oct 29 2017, 08:45 AM) *

QUOTE(SKL1 @ Oct 24 2017, 04:50 PM) *

Anyone have the advance curve for the Bosch 050 distributor? Wonder if one of the preset curves on the 4R is close to that...

Think I'll order the 4R with 16 curve choices- don't figure I'm computer savvy enough to program the thing myself! Hell, I'm driving a 46 year old car!!


The 050 isn't even a curve. It is pretty linear, which gives you less of an advance bump at low RPM than most of the stock Bosh units. The 009 is also plotted here.


Attached Image



Are you sure rhose are the 914 part No distributor curves?


Those are not 914 Part numbers. Maybe I made the classic mistake of assuming that "050" was the aftermarket Bosh distributor often used in VW engines when "SKL1" asked. The "009" is also the Bosh part number of the common aftermarket distributor.

The "022" and "031" are OEM distributors for Porsche 912. The "0012" is a customized "009" that Benton Performance developed.

This was posted specifically in response to the "050" curve request. Apologies if I misunderstood.


Posted by: SKL1 Oct 29 2017, 07:12 PM

Thanks for info Morrie- that should help with selecting which of the 16 curves I'll use when I get the 4R.

Posted by: Porschef Oct 29 2017, 07:24 PM

That DM-031 curve looks much more like something my engine would appreciate over the 050 curve.

Posted by: Rand Oct 29 2017, 08:32 PM

Thanks for putting the group buy together. Just ordered. I was about to go through my 2.0 djet dizzy. Having this and eliminating points/pertronix, trigger points, vacuum port, advance plate and braided wire maintenance, nice and new... Is going to eliminate a lot of potential headaches!
smilie_pokal.gif

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 30 2017, 11:08 AM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 29 2017, 12:04 PM) *

Found the manual. Think these are them.


Those are the numbers I used for the table posted elsewhere. There are more of those in later in the manual for the 2.0 parts. They have a whole separate section for the 2.0 engine.

--DD

Posted by: BillC Oct 30 2017, 04:25 PM

Not sure I really need this since the car is running well, but I just ordered one.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 30 2017, 04:58 PM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Oct 30 2017, 10:08 AM) *

QUOTE(914_teener @ Oct 29 2017, 12:04 PM) *

Found the manual. Think these are them.


Those are the numbers I used for the table posted elsewhere. There are more of those in later in the manual for the 2.0 parts. They have a whole separate section for the 2.0 engine.

--DD



Ah...ok Dave thanks. I.ll look for those. Evidently it was digitized.

Posted by: DAX Oct 30 2017, 05:41 PM


dax just placed my order received a $70.00 with the 914world code great

Posted by: tnsmike Oct 31 2017, 11:56 AM

Ordered me one for the D-Jet, cant wait to give it a try, I'm so tired of constantly adjusting points.

Posted by: Philip W. Oct 31 2017, 01:17 PM

with hotspark module I have not adjusted points for 5 years, but I have had to clean and adjust the FI trigger points plate, I was lucky enough to have bought a NOS plate a few years back- my thing was seeing the consistency of the signal on that video - if the signal is clean and not jumping around the car has to run better I'm sure and knowing that eventually we just wont have good Fi points to use anymore, this seemed like a good time to do this.

Posted by: jkb944t Nov 1 2017, 11:04 AM

I just ordered one for my 914-6 conversion with a 2.2L. I needed to rebuild the distributor anyway so hopefully this will be even better.

Jeff B

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 1 2017, 03:27 PM

Hey, mine's shipped already. Should have it by Friday evening, apparently. I now know what I'm doing Saturday morning... w00t.gif

Posted by: Philip W. Nov 2 2017, 06:21 AM

I didn't order mine until last week so I am not sure when it will or if it has shipped.


Posted by: 914_teener Nov 2 2017, 07:37 AM

Tracking number says tomorrow.

I.ll have an opportunity to put it in this weekend.

Posted by: Porschef Nov 2 2017, 05:25 PM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 1 2017, 05:27 PM) *

Hey, mine's shipped already. Should have it by Friday evening, apparently. I now know what I'm doing Saturday morning... w00t.gif



Nice, Rob. Yeah, your Sat. morning is booked. Please let all us fence sitters how it works for you. I'm gittin' tired of eatin' popcorn...


popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif


Beer helps tho...

beer3.gif beer3.gif

Posted by: nditiz1 Nov 3 2017, 07:29 AM

Mine should be here today as well.

For you carb'd 2056 guys, what curve are you going with?

Posted by: Dave97 Nov 3 2017, 09:37 AM

Can someone document the installation of the bluetooth model? I'm a little confused. It looks like there are no pre-set tables, unlike the program models. Do I need to make my tables before I try to start the car? It would be nice to have a good starting point for both vacuum and centrifugal. Thanks in advance Dave

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 3 2017, 06:44 PM

It just rolled in.

Backed the car up so I can install it tomorrow. Got a new compressor as well. The HF one gave up the ghost.

The build quality is impressive. I think for sure though I am going to put some shrink wrap on the wires a a little strain reliefAttached Image

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 3 2017, 06:46 PM

I.ll be putting this in the perfectly running 1.7 D-jet motor and then changing it to a D-jet 2.0 when I'm done putting it together. I"ll have a spare stock distributor in the process.

We"ll see how this goes, should be fun.

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Posted by: SKL1 Nov 3 2017, 07:19 PM

Not sure if mine has shipped but curious when you guys that got one go to install it if you have to modify the sheetmetal.
When I put the Mallory in my '73, it took a fair amount of "modification" for it to fit as its diameter was significantly more than the standard Bosch dizzy.

And to answer one question above- the bluetooth model has NO preset curves. You have to "make " your own. (got that info from Ed at 123)

Posted by: bigkensteele Nov 3 2017, 08:44 PM

I talked to Ed today as well. He is very impressed with the turnout for this GB - around 30 so far!

He also confirmed that the GB applies to 6 cylinder models as well, so I need to make up my mind if I want to spend an extra $$$ for a programmable unit.

Posted by: Brett W Nov 4 2017, 08:46 AM

I just installed one of these in a 1976 911 and am really impressed. Well built product. The Software is a little goofy and does weird things, but once you get used to it you can use it reasonably well. Although not directly related to the 123dizzy, it completely transformed this car. The original builder just capped the OE vacuum retard distributor and the car has driven like ass for 20 years according to the customer. The car is a incredibly easy to drive now. Finally a away to bring EFI levels of ignition tuning to a simple carbed install.

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 4 2017, 11:42 AM

Ok, I've got mine installed, but I'm doing something fundamentally wrong with regards to installation and/or timing on this thing.

First issue I ran into: the p/n on my dizzy was 022 905 205 F, which is stock for a 1970 1.7! I bought this engine sort of turn-key, so a) not sure how I ended up with that, and b) it could explain some of the minor, slightly annoying issues I've seen over time. Not sure why I never noticed that before, but the car does run strong (even if sometimes a little inconsistently).

The install itself was pretty straightforward, although the instructions (#8 through 12 for my D-Jet version) are a little confusing. I got the car to fire right up and idle, and all seemed well. I used my variable timing light to set it to max advance (22 at 2700 -- I used the "B" curve since my D-Jet parts (ECU/MPS) should be consistent with a '74 2.0).

Second issue on test drive: no power at all. Hmmm, timing too retarded? Now if I reset it back based on the timing light, I get more power but can't get the idle below 2400 RPM. Timing too advanced now? I've checked to make sure I didn't accidentally leave a major vacuum hose disconnected. Nope.

One thing about the install that's interesting: it seems, unless I'm mistaken, that you're #1 spark plug lead on the dizzy will (or could) change orientation. The firing order won't change, but the orientation of each can. This occurs when you pull the old dizzy with the engine set at TDC. So when you put the new dizzy in you have to line up the drive gear and also orient the body of the dizzy the way it makes sense based on wiring, vacuum hose connection, etc.

I probably will go through the install sequence again to see if it becomes clear what I'm doing wrong.




Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 4 2017, 01:39 PM

Took it out, reinstalled, and now I'm not getting spark. headbang.gif

I can't think of what could be wrong at this point. Very frustrating, as this should be easy...

Posted by: nditiz1 Nov 4 2017, 01:57 PM

Rob,

I noticed a strange thing as well. I set the motor to TDC and pulled the mallory unilite dist that was in it. The rotor pointed towards #3 cyl, but on the cap it was #1 spark plug. When I put the 123 in I couldn't figure out why the dist was going on all the way down. Finally I moved the shaft 180 and it slid all the way down. Like you said I guess it doesn't matter where the rotor is pointing as long as the plug wires are in the correct place on the top of the cap regarding firing order.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 4 2017, 03:48 PM

Just installed mine....just now.

Almost ready to fire it up. This is on my 1.7 bone stock.

Working dizzy I took out is Bosch # 0 231 174 007 which os consistant with dip switch aetting No 1 per tje installation manual.

Assuming these things:

No difference between 21 and 22 for the trigger points...

No ground for pole 12 off the same so assume that the ecu sees a ground doesn.t matter. It will trigger fuel or it won.t .

I.ll post what I did and we.ll see if there are issues....I.ll post those too.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 4 2017, 03:50 PM

At the moment what vacuum hooks up to the port....retard or advance?


Posted by: 914_teener Nov 4 2017, 04:26 PM

It fired up no problem.....I.ll post pics later and need to road test.

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 4 2017, 04:47 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 4 2017, 06:26 PM) *

It fired up no problem.....I.ll post pics later and need to road test.

Very cool, Rob. Mine fired up right away...the first time dry.gif

If you think you're good based on the road test, I'd love a description of how you handled those last few installation steps. They are not crystal clear (obviously translated into English), and maybe that's where I'm getting fouled up.

It's dark and pouring rain here right now, and won't be able to get back at it until the morning.

Posted by: Porschef Nov 4 2017, 06:30 PM


popcorn[1].gif popcorn[1].gif


barf.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 4 2017, 09:29 PM

Ok. barf.gif This activity got cut short this afternoon....daughter got in a car accident while I was installing this. 20 somethings...sigh screwy.gif No one is huirt so all is good.

So got home around 6 and finished checking the timing and a short run. No problems firing right up and repeated starts. If anything the startup seemed smoother. AAR came off as normal and I let it warm up. Both vacuum ports plugged and checked the timing. It was spot on.

Then I got involved in alot of idle issues that only happens with D-jet meaning that it always seems to be this creeping elegance to get it perfect which it never will be. So let it just sit to normalize and idle to get good and warm. No issues.

They only thing that I see is the vacuum port. I hooked it up to the retard port. My thought is that the advance curve is programmed as a function of the combination of the idle side for retard and then compensates for the programmed advance curve. Static, with no load the timing is right on. On my short runs up the street I couldn't notice anything. I'll take longer runs when I come back from the G &R tomorrow and put the air cleaner back and take it for a longer drive. It revs up quickly past 4.2k quickly and smoothly like a short stroked type IV.

So a few pics will follow.

Here is what I did:

1. I put shrink wrap on the trigger point wires and then sheathing on the + and - wires to the coil. Just didn't look right and feel right.

2. Got the stock distributor as close as possible to TDC and then removed it by taking the entire clamp off.

3. Followed the instructions verbatim. Use the number dizzy from the manual to 1 since that matched the dizzy number I had.

4. Installed the 123 with the rotorcap in the clamped position and making sure it was orientated how the stock distributor was......meaning the No 1 spark plug.

5. I thought this was the tricky part. The new dizzy seal and shaft is a pretty tight fit and it didn't seat the first time. I had to really push down on it to get it to seat. Once I had it down I must have tweeked one of the rotor clamps which are as others have said kind of "flimsy" They appear to be made out of stainless or plated steel and not spring hardened like the stock clamps. It almost occured to me to switch them. Instead I tweeked it back by squeezing it back to make it tighter. This worked.



Once it was seated right I plugged back in the respected plug wires....no issues.
Checked the timing...that was it.

I feel more confident when I take it for a longer drive, hopefully tomorrow.

Pics:

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Posted by: 914_teener Nov 4 2017, 09:40 PM

Protected the wires....and no I don't wash my clothes in the 87 Whirlpool, only the dog blankies.

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Set engince to TCD and removed the old dizzy.



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Set the dip switch from the manual to the BOSCH part No. listed in the instruction manual.

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Make sure the new dizzy is installed and seated firmly. You should NOT be able to move the rotor if it is.

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Checked the timing.

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Posted by: 914_teener Nov 4 2017, 11:02 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 4 2017, 02:50 PM) *

At the moment what vacuum hooks up to the port....retard or advance?



My thinking at this time...and a glass of wine later is that I hooked up the wrong hose.

I set the timing statically with the hoses plugged as normal. I was told that this port is active and has an effect on timing. In theory then if there is only one port to the dizzy then there should be a tee and then connect to the dizzy. Vacuum advance should be the highest near part load and then fade out on the curve at WOT? Think I need to test this for any effect tomorrow. Maybe is doesn't matter?

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 5 2017, 06:32 AM

Rob, sorry about your daughter. I'm given to believe a father's job is never done, no matter how old your kids are. Glad nobody was hurt, though.

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 4 2017, 11:29 PM) *

4. Installed the 123 with the rotorcap in the clamped position and making sure it was orientated how the stock distributor was......meaning the No 1 spark plug.
So yours was properly oriented relative to the stock position of #1? I guess you can get it that way if you rotate the dizzy body and point the vac port away from everything else, correct?

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 4 2017, 11:29 PM) *

Once I had it down I must have tweeked one of the rotor clamps which are as others have said kind of "flimsy" They appear to be made out of stainless or plated steel and not spring hardened like the stock clamps.
I noticed that, too. I think I may have tweaeked them with all the rotating of the dizzy body in that small space.

I'm going to get back at this morning once the neighbors can tolerate some noise and the rain lets up a bit. I'm either doing something fundamentally wrong or the unit itself (or coil, or something) is bollocksed.

Posted by: McMark Nov 5 2017, 08:11 AM

Sounds like there are a few minor issues going on, mostly just procedural.

1. As mentioned, new distributor seals make the distributor challenging to seat. This is true every time the seal is replaced, regardless of the distributor. A little motor oil on the seal will help, but at some point you just have to force it.

2. The center shaft has the rotor on top and the offest-keyed 'bar' on the bottom. That whole assembly will only install one way. You can't force it or convince it to line up any other way. So as you're sliding the disitributor body into place, you need to spin the rotor to find the place where that key/bar/tooth drops into place and locks. This can sometimes be challenging, but it's undoubtable when it goes in. If for some reason you need/want the rotor to point a different direction at #1 TDC, you must remove the distributor, then pull and reorient the separate drive gear.

3. The body of the distributor can be rotated to any position. It doesn't really matter which way it's pointing, so for initial setup loosen the stock clamp and rotate the distributor however you need to to make the body match up with the rotor -- so the rotor (which is still at #1 TDC) points to where spark plug wire #1 will plug in. Once you have #1 spark plug wire in place, install the rest of the wires in the firing order 1-4-3-2, going clockwise. Finally, follow the instructions to get the 'static timing' set.

4. IF you're using vacuum feature, the vacuum port should always be hooked to the advance port unless the tuning curve you choose says "DEGREES NEGATIVE VACUUM!!!!" those curves should be hooked up to the retard port. If you're unsure which port on the throttle body is which, leave it disconnected for now and once the engine is running, use a vacuum gauge to test both ports on the throttle body. With the engine running at idle and the throttle closed, the port with the LEAST amount of vacuum is the advance port. At idle the advance port should read nearly zero vacuum, where-as the retard port would show manifold vacuum. Plug any ports on the throttle body that you don't use.

5. Do NOT plug the vacuum port on the distributor if you're not using it. This goes for ALL distributors in ALL cars (at least vintage points based distributors in all cars).

6. ----If you have the Bluetooth unit, ensuring that what you see on your phone (degrees) matches what you see on the timing light is CRITICALLY important. Take extra time to make sure you're doing this right.
---- For non-bluetooth models, just make sure you're using the right curve choice. Also note/understand that the amount of advance described in the manual is the number of degrees added to the initial timing. So if the curve you select says it adds 22 degrees at 2700 rpm, then on a stock D-Jet car you still set the timing to 27 degrees just like the factory distributor -- NOT 22!! In that example, the full advance timing is 27, the distributor is adding 22 degress, so your initial/idle timing is 'automatically' set to 5 degrees. Another way to say the same thing: initial timing + distributor max advance = 27 degrees (the factory timing setting).

6. The cap-clamps are a weak point of the design, you can try and swap original units on, or you can bend them a bit to increase tension. Mostly just be careful while rotating the body because it's easy to forget to pay attention to the clamps and accidentally bend them. Once they're installed and running, I've never had a problem with the clamps popping off -- but I always ensure good tension during the install process. You wan a nice tight snap.

I think that's it. But I'll keep checking in to help anyone else who needs it.

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 5 2017, 08:31 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 5 2017, 10:11 AM) *

6. For non-bluetooth models, just make sure you're using the right curve choice. Also note/understand that the amount of advance described in the manual is the number of degrees added to the initial timing. So if the curve you select says it adds 22 degrees at 2700 rpm, then on a stock D-Jet car you still set the timing to 27 degrees just like the factory distributor -- NOT 22!! In that example, the full advance timing is 27, the distributor is adding 22 degress, so your initial/idle timing is 'automatically' set to 5 degrees. Another way to say the same thing: initial timing + distributor max advance = 27 degrees (the factory timing setting).

6. The cap-clamps are a weak point of the design, you can try and swap original units on, or you can bend them a bit to increase tension. Mostly just be careful while rotating the body because it's easy to forget to pay attention to the clamps and accidentally bend them.

Ok, thanks Mark. Both of these points are very helpful to my situation. So I was timing at 22 and should have been at 27 - that would explain the not great power I experienced on a road test. That doesn't explain the very high idle I was experiencing - advancing it more will actually aggravate that, so I need to figger' out what the heck is going on there.

I would greatly appreciate a better description of how that static timing works - the part about the green LED light and then rotating it the opposite direction. I think followed it correctly, but I'm not 100% sure, and when things aren't working you start to doubt yourself.

I have or may have the following issues to resolve that could be related to my no-spark issue:

1. Battery was fairly well discharged from starting attempts. I gather these things do need a pretty solid charge to even fire.

2. I probably need to retweak the clamps as the cap didn't feel like it was sitting tightly.

Posted by: McMark Nov 5 2017, 08:57 AM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 5 2017, 09:31 AM) *

I would greatly appreciate a better description of how that static timing works - the part about the green LED light and then rotating it the opposite direction. I think followed it correctly, but I'm not 100% sure, and when things aren't working you start to doubt yourself.

I have or may have the following issues to resolve that could be related to my no-spark issue:

1. Battery was fairly well discharged from starting attempts. I gather these things do need a pretty solid charge to even fire.

2. I probably need to retweak the clamps as the cap didn't feel like it was sitting tightly.


When you set the initial static timing, what you're doing is really just getting things close. The engine won't fire/run outside a relatively small window of timing, so a small misalignment can make the engine not run. By including the green-LED inside, you're allowed a visual reference to indicate when the distributor would fire the coil. So maybe think of the green LED as 'spark'. So the static timing is done by setting the engine at TDC #1, then rotating the distributor body to ensure that the spark (green LED) happens when the piston is at TDC, and the rotor is pointed at #1 spark plug wire. By doing all that, you're ensuring that when you turn the key the engine will fire up and run so you can use your timing light to fine tune the timing. Static timing could also be called 'rough timing'.

Since the 123Ignition distributor is an electronic circuit, there are design considerations regarding input voltage. If your battery is low, or dying/old, it may be dropping the voltage too low while cranking -- keeping the 123 from 'turning on'. If the 123 doesn't have enough power to turn on, it doesn't have enough power to fire the spark plugs.

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 5 2017, 11:23 AM

Thanks, Mark. That was helpful. So I made progress. I took the unit out, tweaked the clamps to get a better seat with cap, and then did the whole reinstall process again. I also charged the battery for an hour or two. Fired right up, got it timed pretty well to 27 degrees, and took it for a spin. Ran fairly well, but there are still some issues with regard to timing or something else. It didn't pull quite as strong as I know it can, and I feel like there's almost a slight miss. I also can't get the idle below 1500. I assume a vacuum leak somewhere, but I didn't have one before as far as I know.

When I got back to the house, I shut it off for a few minutes and attempted a restart. No dice - not even a cough. sad.gif . Charged the battery for a couple of minutes, and I at least got an initial fire, although it didn't take After that, nada. I'm going to let it charge for a while longer and try again. It seems like my battery may not be up to snuff here. I may not be getting a particularly strong spark if that's the case. If I have to replace battery (which I thought was good), spark plugs, and wires, I'll do it. But it's interesting that this dizzy has caused, or exposed, other possible issues.

Posted by: StratPlayer Nov 5 2017, 11:41 AM

Did the dizzy come with a new coil? When mine was installed I put a new coil in with the install. 123 recommends a new coil be installed with the dizzy.

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 5 2017, 12:40 PM

QUOTE(StratPlayer @ Nov 5 2017, 01:41 PM) *

Did the dizzy come with a new coil? When mine was installed I put a new coil in with the install. 123 recommends a new coil be installed with the dizzy.

No, it did not. It wasn't the "kit" I've seen advertised that comes with a coil. I'm ready to buy one, though. Is the Blue Bosch unit good or something else recommended?

Took it for another spin after advancing it a couple more degrees, and it felt pretty good, but it still doesn't want to start when the car is warm. It coughed once on attempted restart and that's about it. I'm hoping that's coil / plugs related, because I can't imagine the timing is off at this point.

Also I am narrowing down the vacuum leak source. I think for some reason my decel valve decided to leak this weekend as well. I've got the idle down to 1200, sometimes hunting between 1100 and 1300, and I'm soaking that in PB.

The hard starting and high idle may have misdirected me to timing being too far advanced, but it could be coil/plugs and vacuum leak.

Posted by: nditiz1 Nov 5 2017, 01:19 PM

I may have locked my motor???? blink.gif

I tried starting it today and something wasn't right. I moved the dist a little to get it into correct static timing. I heard a very loud backfire out the exhaust. Now started just engages motor doesn't turn. Raised the one side with other wheel on the ground in 5th gear. Wheel stops hard headbang.gif sigh...not sure how i f'd up the motor

Posted by: euro911 Nov 5 2017, 02:13 PM

QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Nov 5 2017, 12:19 PM) *
I may have locked my motor???? blink.gif

I tried starting it today and something wasn't right. I moved the dist a little to get it into correct static timing. I heard a very loud backfire out the exhaust. Now started just engages motor doesn't turn. Raised the one side with other wheel on the ground in 5th gear. Wheel stops hard headbang.gif sigh...not sure how i f'd up the motor
Pull your valve covers and check to see if the issue is valve train related.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2017, 03:15 PM

Rob....sorry you are having some issues.


My car runs like a raped ape. Even idle stability is better. No pinging, also seems....big word..like it responds better on part load. Even took a run up GMR part ways to test overun coming down hill. No backfire coming down hill and no ping going up.

Thanks for the tips Mark, I know you have a lot of experience, a lot more than I.

If this helps anybody, I know my D-jet FI was running in tip top shape before I made the switch. I also switched to the advance port from the TB as Mark suggested and after thinking about it last night. I was really careful, meaning procedural as Mark would coin it when I took the old dizzy out to make darn sure it was at TDC and then putting the new dizzy in.

I'm pretty happy.

Got a lot of parts for a 2005 Corrolla, my daughters new part stash headbang.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2017, 03:18 PM

Oh...and I am running a new Bosch Blue coil made sure all leads were clean and tight when I put everything together. These systems are finicky with electrical connections as everyone knows.

Posted by: Olympic 914 Nov 5 2017, 05:52 PM

Following this closely, since I don't want to install more problems than I already have tuning.

But looking at what you posted and comparing it to the advance curves listed. I see you said you had selected the "B" curve.

I think this setting is only used if you want Negative vacuum advance, and I don't know why you would want that. it seems to me that the correct setting should be #2. for the 011 dizzy that would be correct for your '74

Does your throttle body have two vacuum ports or only one? ( mine has two )

on mine the port above the throttle plate goes to the advance side of the can on the dizzy and the one below the throttle plate goes to the retard side.

So your setup may be retarding the timing.







QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 4 2017, 12:42 PM) *

Ok, I've got mine installed, but I'm doing something fundamentally wrong with regards to installation and/or timing on this thing.

First issue I ran into: the p/n on my dizzy was 022 905 205 F, which is stock for a 1970 1.7! I bought this engine sort of turn-key, so a) not sure how I ended up with that, and b) it could explain some of the minor, slightly annoying issues I've seen over time. Not sure why I never noticed that before, but the car does run strong (even if sometimes a little inconsistently).

The install itself was pretty straightforward, although the instructions (#8 through 12 for my D-Jet version) are a little confusing. I got the car to fire right up and idle, and all seemed well. I used my variable timing light to set it to max advance (22 at 2700 -- I used the "B" curve since my D-Jet parts (ECU/MPS) should be consistent with a '74 2.0).

Second issue on test drive: no power at all. Hmmm, timing too retarded? Now if I reset it back based on the timing light, I get more power but can't get the idle below 2400 RPM. Timing too advanced now? I've checked to make sure I didn't accidentally leave a major vacuum hose disconnected. Nope.

One thing about the install that's interesting: it seems, unless I'm mistaken, that you're #1 spark plug lead on the dizzy will (or could) change orientation. The firing order won't change, but the orientation of each can. This occurs when you pull the old dizzy with the engine set at TDC. So when you put the new dizzy in you have to line up the drive gear and also orient the body of the dizzy the way it makes sense based on wiring, vacuum hose connection, etc.

I probably will go through the install sequence again to see if it becomes clear what I'm doing wrong.

Posted by: Olympic 914 Nov 5 2017, 06:14 PM

Attached Image

On my engine the correct dizzy is a 009 so I will try #1 setting but also would try #2 and maybe #4

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 5 2017, 06:21 PM

I see what you're saying. And it makes sense. Since my dizzy wasn't stock, I wasn't sure what to select, but I think this is worth a try to see what happens.

It's actually running pretty strong right now except for the high idle and significant difficulty starting...

EDIT: Going to have to wait until daylight, and probably after work, before I can try this. It's going to require pulling the dizzy to reset the curve. Also, my throttle body is probably not stock to the engine, but it has both advance and retard.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2017, 06:26 PM

QUOTE(Olympic 914 @ Nov 5 2017, 04:14 PM) *

Attached Image

On my engine the correct dizzy is a 009 so I will try #1 setting but also would try #2 and maybe #4



If you are referring to me, I selected setting No. 1 as that corresponded to the Bosch part No. I had in the car. The engine I have now in the car is a 1.7 completely bone stock with a well sorted D.jet FI system.

If I were you I.d PM McMark to make siure per what motor, cam, induction, dizzy you now have and if it is running well.

I.d make sure of all of that first.

Rob

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2017, 06:27 PM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 5 2017, 04:21 PM) *

I see what you're saying. And it makes sense. Since my dizzy wasn't stock, I wasn't sure what to select, but I think this is worth a try to see what happens.

It's actually running pretty strong right now except for the high idle and significant difficulty starting...



Rob, a leaking d.cel valve will give you high idle. Plug it fornnow and see what happens.

Posted by: Olympic 914 Nov 5 2017, 06:46 PM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 5 2017, 07:21 PM) *

I see what you're saying. And it makes sense. Since my dizzy wasn't stock, I wasn't sure what to select, but I think this is worth a try to see what happens.

It's actually running pretty strong right now except for the high idle and significant difficulty starting...

EDIT: Going to have to wait until daylight, and probably after work, before I can try this. It's going to require pulling the dizzy to reset the curve. Also, my throttle body is probably not stock to the engine, but it has both advance and retard.


My set-up is also kind of Frankensteined together, Running the 007 dizzy that came originally with my 1.7 engine. its now a 2056 with 2.0 FI system and the throttle body that has the two ports. I also have the two port can on the distributor and have both hoses connected. for Advance and Retard.

the plan on installing the new 123 dizzy will be to only connect the advance hose and plug the retard port on the throttle body. ( You did plug that, didn't you?) then play with the settings.

Isn't there a way to turn the switch with the dizzy installed?

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 5 2017, 07:10 PM

Success! (I think). I was going to try resetting the curve based on your suggestion tomorrow after work, but after the frustration this weekend, I said "screw it" and went out with a flashlight and managed to pull the dizzy and reset the curve to "2" in about 5 minutes (you get pretty good pulling and reinstalling after about the 4th time). Started much easier, ran strong, and idled steady around 1000 RPM. I probably still need to verify timing, but if I'm not yet at raped ape like Rob, I think I am at least at molested monkey smile.gif .

Yes, do plug the retard port. I did do that as well. Based on the orientation of my dizzy I really can't access the program port without pulling the dizzy. You may want to keep that in mind when you set the orientation on yours.

All good!

Posted by: Olympic 914 Nov 5 2017, 07:15 PM

thumb3d.gif beerchug.gif

Posted by: McMark Nov 6 2017, 06:41 AM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 5 2017, 12:23 PM) *
I'm going to let it charge for a while longer and try again. It seems like my battery may not be up to snuff here.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=319311 I'm so glad I did. Shows you if your alternator is working right too. wink.gif

Posted by: Dave97 Nov 6 2017, 10:07 AM

I'm getting the Bluetooth model. Can anyone post or send me a good starting point with both curves? I have a mild 2270 with Weber 44's. I need to program the unit to get it started and running. Thanks in advance pun intended Dave

Posted by: McMark Nov 6 2017, 03:32 PM

0-1000 rpm = 12 degrees
3500-10000rpm = 28 degrees

The 'curve' is a straight line between 1000-3500rpm.

Posted by: Dave97 Nov 6 2017, 04:07 PM

Thanks Mark, and the vacuum advance curve?

Posted by: McMark Nov 6 2017, 05:09 PM

Zero. wink.gif

Posted by: Dave97 Nov 6 2017, 05:42 PM

Hum, there seems to be 2 different thoughts here, vacuum or no vacuum. I thought people were now going to svda dirtributors to get better idle and gas mileage. Did I miss something?

Posted by: McMark Nov 6 2017, 10:01 PM

Grab some dyno time. It's the only way to really be accurate.

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 7 2017, 07:37 PM

Gentlemen
Just an FYI to all in the Group Buy.
As you know I was able to get a few units out to some of the early orders. My apologies to any that have not gotten theirs yet.
The deadline is coming up on the 10th of November and the balance of the order will be submitted on the 12th of November. Everything should be shipped out to you by the 22nd.
Thanks so much for all the kind remarks of appreciation via email. You are a great group of enthusiasts and I can tell you are dedicated mechanics as well.
Best Regards
Ed
www.123ignitionusa.com

Posted by: pete000 Nov 7 2017, 11:46 PM

Got mine today. Didn’t have time to open the box yet.

Posted by: Porschef Nov 10 2017, 05:14 AM

So here we are, Nov. 10, and my arse is firmly planted atop the fence, still. dry.gif


What, please, is the overall consensus regarding this unit, I'd be much obliged to get a push from one side or the other as it's final day for the GB. My budget for such a frivolous purchase is virtually nonexistent; however, should this be something that will dramatically improve the overall running of the soon to be hibernating subject, maybe I can do/find/sell something to offset the cost.

Thanks in advance to y'all,

Joe

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 10 2017, 06:30 AM

Sorry, Joe, I just don't have enough "data" for you yet. Between work and the weather in the East this week (new season: "damp") I haven't had the opportunity to work out some of the kinks and see if I can optimize it. I just received a new coil, new plugs, and Clewett wires in the mail yesterday, and I'm planning on installing those this weekend. I still think I need to play with the right curve and the timing some more to get things to where they really need to be. If your system is stock or more "stock-ish" than mine it will probably be a quicker process.

Don't think this thing is a "game-changer" for us, but I'm optimistic that I can at least get more consistency in behavior/performance. At least that's my goal.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 10 2017, 08:20 AM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 10 2017, 04:30 AM) *

Sorry, Joe, I just don't have enough "data" for you yet. Between work and the weather in the East this week (new season: "damp") I haven't had the opportunity to work out some of the kinks and see if I can optimize it. I just received a new coil, new plugs, and Clewett wires in the mail yesterday, and I'm planning on installing those this weekend. I still think I need to play with the right curve and the timing some more to get things to where they really need to be. If your system is stock or more "stock-ish" than mine it will probably be a quicker process.

Don't think this thing is a "game-changer" for us, but I'm optimistic that I can at least get more consistency in behavior/performance. At least that's my goal.



I'd agree with Rob in that it depends what your goals are. This weekend I'm going to try and take in on a longer drive just to be sure. But so far I am pleased with the purchase and performance. My goals were a little different in that I will need a distributor for another motor for later. I couldn't find a decent dizzy out there for sale. When I did, the price was outrageous for a total rusted piece of crap. I think that it is pretty cool and cost effective that I can use one dizzy for both displacements one current and future.

If you have a perfectly working stock dizzy then I wouldn't expect a huge difference in performance, although for me the idle stability issue is definitely better then before. I had no issues when I installed it. Mark is probably right in that the only way for sure to notice any difference would be to dyno it. I may do that just to see and feel the difference when I change motors.

So I guess my goals were driven from a cost perspective in that it outpriced the time and money of finding a decent stock dizzy. If you have lots of time to rebuild a stock dizzy and want to find a decent set of trigger points, vacuum canisters ect. then great. It will cost you more that $400 bucks and I like to spend my time driving the car.

For a motor that is running stock D-jet and if your never going to be in a concours show and like driving your car with a set and forget dizzy then this is pretty great solution.

My .05.

Edit:

Although I not in this situation, it would be interesting to get some feedback for those that don't have stock motor either as this should work as well.

Posted by: Porschef Nov 10 2017, 10:52 AM

Interesting . I'm not running Djet, I've got an Ljet system. I think for those who've got the Djet that it's probably a more beneficial upgrade.

I'd like to be able to program the curve more specific to my engine...

Posted by: pete000 Nov 10 2017, 07:08 PM

QUOTE(Porschef @ Nov 10 2017, 08:52 AM) *

Interesting . I'm not running Djet, I've got an Ljet system. I think for those who've got the Djet that it's probably a more beneficial upgrade.

I'd like to be able to program the curve more specific to my engine...



I will be installing the programmable unit in my L-Jet 1.8 shortly.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 10 2017, 08:15 PM

Me thinks L-jet is more malleable and with a little fiddling you should be fine.



Posted by: 914_teener Nov 10 2017, 08:18 PM

I"ve given some thought to the whole scenario about plugging in the wrong wires and a valve shearing off due to the backfire and is totally plausible if the valve has stretched enough and had been sitting for a while.

My engineer brain working to hard.

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 12 2017, 03:11 PM

Ok, I got a chance to work on this thing yesterday and do some more road testing today. Yesterday I spent some time fighting with the timing and chasing "vacuum leaks" as I couldn't get a normal idle AND good performance on Curve 2. Finally concluded I don't have any significant vacuum leaks and that I should go back to Curve B using the vacuum line to bring down idle (plugging in the retard, not advance). Seems pretty obvious now that that's what I should have been doing all along.

I also installed new Blue Bosch coil, new plugs, Clewett wires and cleaned up the wiring to make it tidy. One thing that is annoying is that the location of #1 on the dizzy cap is about 180 degrees from stock. Because of the change in locations, some of the plug wires are a tough fit, and I couldn't get #2 to fit at all. So I had to use an older, longer wire I had. The Clewett ones don't give you any excess to play with. I know you can flip the drive gear on the dizzy, but...not sure I want to futz with that right now.

Anyway, I'm in good shape and happy now. Nice idle with good performance through the whole acceleration range. Hopefully our "lessons learned" (with assist from Mark) may help others make quicker work of this install (which really should be easy).

Raped ape from here on out aktion035.gif

Posted by: pete000 Nov 12 2017, 04:57 PM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 12 2017, 01:11 PM) *



I also installed new Blue Bosch coil, new plugs, Clewett wires and cleaned up the wiring to make it tidy. One thing that is annoying is that the location of #1 on the dizzy cap is about 180 degrees from stock. Because of the change in locations, some of the plug wires are a tough fit, and I couldn't get #2 to fit at all. So I had to use an older, longer wire I had. The Clewett ones don't give you any excess to play with. I know you can flip the drive gear on the dizzy, but...not sure I want to futz with that right now.



I'm running Clewett wires and this is disturbing news, why is the 123 distributor 180 degrees opposite of OEM?

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 12 2017, 09:09 PM

My No 1 terminal was exactly in the same position as the stock dizzy. I had no such issue.

Posted by: pete000 Nov 12 2017, 11:05 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 12 2017, 07:09 PM) *

My No 1 terminal was exactly in the same position as the stock dizzy. I had no such issue.



Oh that's good news. I haven't had time to get mine installed yet.

Posted by: McMark Nov 13 2017, 07:01 AM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Nov 12 2017, 04:11 PM) *
One thing that is annoying is that the location of #1 on the dizzy cap is about 180 degrees from stock.
You can reclock the drive gear under the distributor. It's not hard, and you don't need to pull it out completely (so no washer worries). With a tappet-puller it'd take you about 30s to turn the drive 180, which would change your TDC#1 location, which would reorient all your spark plug wires.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=7934&view=findpost&p=105399
(Ye gods! That post is from nearly 14 years ago! yikes.gif)

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 13 2017, 07:26 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 13 2017, 08:01 AM) *

You can reclock the drive gear under the distributor. It's not hard, and you don't need to pull it out completely (so no washer worries). With a tappet-puller it'd take you about 30s to turn the drive 180, which would change your TDC#1 location, which would reorient all your spark plug wires.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=7934&view=findpost&p=105399
(Ye gods! That post is from nearly 14 years ago! yikes.gif)

Cool, thanks Mark. Then that is what I think I will do. I'm not so OCD as to have to have the #1 in the right position, but I am sufficiently OCD to want all my plug wires to match and be good quality (after spending money on them) smile.gif

Posted by: pete000 Nov 13 2017, 10:46 PM

From the factory tech spec booklet...


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image Attached Image

Posted by: SKL1 Nov 13 2017, 11:08 PM

Mine is on the way. I have a 2.0 with Webcam and Webers, so got the one with 16 maps and no vacuum. Will have to figure out which map I like the best...

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 13 2017, 11:28 PM

QUOTE(pete000 @ Nov 13 2017, 08:46 PM) *

From the factory tech spec booklet...



Just wanted to point out that these plots use the VW numbers and not the Bosch part numbers for which the 123 installation manual uses.

You need to figure out what the cross references plots are if you have a stock config.

Posted by: nditiz1 Nov 14 2017, 06:44 AM

Can someone tell me where the stock position of #1 is? Since I'll have the motor out might as well make sure the gear is oriented properly. Thanks!

Posted by: McMark Nov 14 2017, 06:52 AM

QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Nov 14 2017, 07:44 AM) *

Can someone tell me where the stock position of #1 is? Since I'll have the motor out might as well make sure the gear is oriented properly. Thanks!

My link above has the stock position when the engine is at TDC#1. It's ~12° off-center.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=7934&view=findpost&p=105399

Posted by: BeatNavy Nov 14 2017, 07:00 AM

If Mark's picture doesn't make it 100% clear I made (or found online, can't remember which) the following for myself for reference a few years ago:

Attached Image

Posted by: nditiz1 Nov 14 2017, 07:14 AM

Thanks Mark and Rob.

Now I know my gear is already oriented correctly. The Mallory I did have in there was 180 off.

Posted by: McMark Nov 14 2017, 08:11 AM

QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Nov 14 2017, 08:14 AM) *
The Mallory I did have in there was 180 off.

This reply is mostly irrelevant, but to be specific. The drive gear only has a 'correct' orientation in regards to the stock distributor, stock distributor orientation (where the vac can is), and having the rotor 'point at the line'.

When you change any of the stock components out, the idea of a 'correct' orientation breaks down. The following are all true -- as long as correct ignition timing can be physically achieved and the firing order is maintained.
-The drive gear can be installed in any orientation and work just fine.
-The rotor can point any direction and work just fine.
-The distributor body can be oriented in any way and work just fine.
-The spark plug wires can be oriented in any way and work just fine.

So you can't just put anything anywhere and have it work. BUT you are allowed a HUGE degree of freedom. So the Mallory is not '180 degrees off', which would imply that it's installed or manufactured improperly. The Mallory is just different. The 009 is different. The 123 is different. But orientation is just completely irrelevant, as long as correct ignition timing can be physically achieved and the firing order is maintained.

The bottom line is this:
If you're installing a 100% stock system, take the time to make sure all the components are aligned as per the manual. But if you've swapped out any components, don't get too focused on orientation vs. stock, and be willing to change the orientation.

Posted by: nditiz1 Nov 14 2017, 08:49 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 14 2017, 06:11 AM) *

QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Nov 14 2017, 08:14 AM) *
The Mallory I did have in there was 180 off.

This reply is mostly irrelevant, but to be specific. The drive gear only has a 'correct' orientation in regards to the stock distributor, stock distributor orientation (where the vac can is), and having the rotor 'point at the line'.

When you change any of the stock components out, the idea of a 'correct' orientation breaks down. The following are all true -- as long as correct ignition timing can be physically achieved and the firing order is maintained.
-The drive gear can be installed in any orientation and work just fine.
-The rotor can point any direction and work just fine.
-The distributor body can be oriented in any way and work just fine.
-The spark plug wires can be oriented in any way and work just fine.

So you can't just put anything anywhere and have it work. BUT you are allowed a HUGE degree of freedom. So the Mallory is not '180 degrees off', which would imply that it's installed or manufactured improperly. The Mallory is just different. The 009 is different. The 123 is different. But orientation is just completely irrelevant, as long as correct ignition timing can be physically achieved and the firing order is maintained.

The bottom line is this:
If you're installing a 100% stock system, take the time to make sure all the components are aligned as per the manual. But if you've swapped out any components, don't get too focused on orientation vs. stock, and be willing to change the orientation.


This makes total sense. Thanks.

Posted by: mgphoto Nov 14 2017, 01:00 PM

The 123 allows you to orient the wiring and curve plug access to a direction you prefer. Can't do that with a stock dizzy as the vacuum can takes up a lot of space.
As long as the rotor points to the #1 position, you can rotate the body of the 123 to position the cap spark plug connector to the #1 wire in the stock position.

This can make the wire installation a bit more tidy.


Posted by: Morrie Nov 14 2017, 03:16 PM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Nov 14 2017, 02:00 PM) *

The 123 allows you to orient the wiring and curve plug access to a direction you prefer. Can't do that with a stock dizzy as the vacuum can takes up a lot of space.
As long as the rotor points to the #1 position, you can rotate the body of the 123 to position the cap spark plug connector to the #1 wire in the stock position.

This can make the wire installation a bit more tidy.


Hmmm... I agree you can position the body in 90 degree increments however you choose, but the rotor position to fire on a given cylinder doesn't change. The only way to move this is to index the drive gear in the case....

Or maybe I am thinking wrong??

Posted by: McMark Nov 14 2017, 06:11 PM

QUOTE(Morrie @ Nov 14 2017, 04:16 PM) *

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Nov 14 2017, 02:00 PM) *

The 123 allows you to orient the wiring and curve plug access to a direction you prefer. Can't do that with a stock dizzy as the vacuum can takes up a lot of space.
As long as the rotor points to the #1 position, you can rotate the body of the 123 to position the cap spark plug connector to the #1 wire in the stock position.

This can make the wire installation a bit more tidy.


Hmmm... I agree you can position the body in 90 degree increments however you choose, but the rotor position to fire on a given cylinder doesn't change. The only way to move this is to index the drive gear in the case....

Or maybe I am thinking wrong??

No, you're right, within the bounds of the wire connections on the cap must line up with the rotor. But you're exactly right, in order to make small adjustments in orientation, you must move the drive gear.

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 15 2017, 03:00 PM

So when the green led just lights up, which is four times in a revolution or turn of the distributor body, you actually have four positions where the firing of the number one cylinder will take place. When you attach the wires to the cap they will also need to move their location to correspond with the change of the distributor body. The reason is the cap has a locating tab on it so it goes onto the body only one way.

Now if you change the gear orientation thats ok but the above applies to that as well. Which should equate to (8) different locations for the distributor body to be adjusted too. However #1 cylinder and the rotor location does not change in each situation unless the drive dog is rotated 180 degrees.

Clear as mud? sad.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: McMark Nov 16 2017, 09:06 AM

QUOTE(123ignitionusa @ Nov 15 2017, 04:00 PM) *

Now if you change the gear orientation thats ok but the above applies to that as well. Which should equate to (8) different locations for the distributor body to be adjusted too. However #1 cylinder and the rotor location does not change in each situation unless the drive dog is rotated 180 degrees.

Clear as mud? sad.gif biggrin.gif
I think by 'drive dog' you're talking about the toothed portion installed on the end of the distributor with a pin and spring. Nobody should be fiddling with that piece.

The drive gear (separate from the distributor) has 12 different positions. Any of those 12 positions will function the same. In any of those 12 positions there are four different orientations for the spark plug wires (assuming there are no physical limitations from clips of vac-cans). So there are a total of 48 different positions where your #1 spark plug wire could be. Which means that with some planning and/or math you can adjust your #1 position anywhere in the 360° rotation in increments/steps of 7.5 degrees.

Posted by: Philip W. Nov 16 2017, 12:36 PM

how long before mine ships?

Posted by: SKL1 Nov 16 2017, 07:14 PM

Got mine today! Will be a while before I can fiddle with it but this thread should be helpful when I do get around to it...

Posted by: pvollma Nov 16 2017, 07:34 PM

QUOTE(123ignitionusa @ Nov 15 2017, 05:00 PM) *

So when the green led just lights up, which is four times in a revolution or turn of the distributor body, you actually have four positions where the firing of the number one cylinder will take place. When you attach the wires to the cap they will also need to move their location to correspond with the change of the distributor body. The reason is the cap has a locating tab on it so it goes onto the body only one way.

Now if you change the gear orientation thats ok but the above applies to that as well. Which should equate to (8) different locations for the distributor body to be adjusted too. However #1 cylinder and the rotor location does not change in each situation unless the drive dog is rotated 180 degrees.

Clear as mud? sad.gif biggrin.gif

Just received mine today -- thanks for the group buy discount! One quick question: I've considered waiting until the car is put up for the winter before having my shop swap in this distributor. Does that eat into my warranty, or does it start when the dizzy is installed (with proof, of course)? I haven't opened the packaging yet, so I don't know if this is explained in any of the documentation that comes with the unit.

Posted by: pete000 Nov 16 2017, 10:29 PM

Haven't installed mine in the car yet, but playing with the Bluetooth programmable software, super easy to use. Infinitely adjustable !. This is going to be fun.

Posted by: rfinegan Nov 18 2017, 02:27 PM

I wish I got in on the buy before I realized i need one of these...any chance for another group buy for black Friday special?
sad.gif

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 19 2017, 07:29 PM

Hi Guys
Thanks for the purchases. I should be able to get the balance of the orders out this week of Nov 20th.
Someone asked about the warranty. These have a 1yr warranty from the date of purchase. As much as I would like to say from the date of installation there is just no way of monitoring that and the mfg only recognizes the date of sale proved by the invoice on record.
Thanks again Ed

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 19 2017, 07:43 PM

QUOTE(rfinegan @ Nov 18 2017, 03:27 PM) *

I wish I got in on the buy before I realized i need one of these...any chance for another group buy for black Friday special?
sad.gif

For those who missed out use 914world5 for a 5% discount. If your group reaches 5 units then 10%. Offer expires Dec 3rd.
Hope this helpEd

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Nov 20 2017, 10:15 AM

QUOTE(123ignitionusa @ Nov 19 2017, 08:43 PM) *

QUOTE(rfinegan @ Nov 18 2017, 03:27 PM) *

I wish I got in on the buy before I realized i need one of these...any chance for another group buy for black Friday special?
sad.gif

For those who missed out use 914world5 for a 5% discount. If your group reaches 5 units then 10%. Offer expires Dec 3rd.
Hope this helpEd

AWesome!

Zach

Posted by: JMT Nov 20 2017, 11:36 AM

Bought mine a few weeks before the group buy came out, oh well. This is how mine is oriented. To install I made sure cylinder #1 was at TDC and confirmed the dizzy drive was at 12 degrees and then slide it in. This is where #1 ended up. It's oriented 180 degrees opposite from the aftermarket Bosch unit that was in there. This is fine for my application. It's going in a 912 so the optical light faces the rear which works out for me. In a 914 you may want it to face a different location.
You can move the body of the dizzy in 90 degree increments so the rotor will line up with a spark plug hole.







Attached Image Attached Image

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 25 2017, 06:33 PM

I just wanted to let everyone know that their orders will be shipped out on Monday.
The shipment got held in customs for a longer than usual time. (Murphy's Law) Then the holiday weekend became a factor. But the long and short is that Fedex will have them here by 10:30 on Monday. I will have them all shipped out by end of day.
Thanks for your patience
Ed

Posted by: Rand Nov 25 2017, 07:43 PM

Thanks Ed. Looking forward.

Posted by: 98101 Nov 26 2017, 06:17 PM

I’ve got a carbureted big 4 with a 009 now. I’d like to make it more streetable and I love the idea of being able to fine tune everything over Bluetooth. I’m not sure the carbs are dialed in right but I’ve been told this won’t really be possible without decent ignition timing.

(More background on my situation here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=320218)

I’m something of a newbie but as I currently understand it, the Bosch 009 isn’t a good choice for street use and maybe not even that great for a track car. I love the idea of being able to configure the 123, and the 12V switch to choose between two modes. I can see using one mode for cold start, try to get out of the parking lot without backfiring on a cold morning, and another mode for break like the wind! Also I think I might have fun and learn a lot about ignition timing with this distributor.

Four questions I’m still confused about after reading the thread thus far:
1) Will I need to relocate my oil pressure sender to make room for this, as has sometimes been reported with the Mallory?
2) Will I need to bend any engine cooling tin to get this in?
3) As I understand it, the Bluetooth version arrives with an empty brain. Would anyone else with a similar engine as mine (2270, Dellorto 45s, Web hot street cam, cool Pacific NW climate a little above sea level) be willing to share your configuration tables with me?
4) Did trying to use this distributor cause nditz1’s engine damage? Would I damage expensive parts by misconfiguring the distributor?

—Michael in Seattle


Posted by: nditiz1 Nov 26 2017, 07:04 PM

QUOTE(98101 @ Nov 26 2017, 04:17 PM) *

I’ve got a carbureted big 4 with a 009 now. I’d like to make it more streetable and I love the idea of being able to fine tune everything over Bluetooth. I’m not sure the carbs are dialed in right but I’ve been told this won’t really be possible without decent ignition timing.

(More background on my situation here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=320218)

I’m something of a newbie but as I currently understand it, the Bosch 009 isn’t a good choice for street use and maybe not even that great for a track car. I love the idea of being able to configure the 123, and the 12V switch to choose between two modes. I can see using one mode for cold start, try to get out of the parking lot without backfiring on a cold morning, and another mode for break like the wind! Also I think I might have fun and learn a lot about ignition timing with this distributor.

Four questions I’m still confused about after reading the thread thus far:
1) Will I need to relocate my oil pressure sender to make room for this, as has sometimes been reported with the Mallory?
2) Will I need to bend any engine cooling tin to get this in?
3) As I understand it, the Bluetooth version arrives with an empty brain. Would anyone else with a similar engine as mine (2270, Dellorto 45s, Web hot street cam, cool Pacific NW climate a little above sea level) be willing to share your configuration tables with me?
4) Did trying to use this distributor cause nditz1’s engine damage? Would I damage expensive parts by misconfiguring the distributor?

—Michael in Seattle


Michael I can answer 1, 2, and 4.

1. You will not need to relocate your oil press sender as this is the same size as the stock at least it seemed way smaller than the mallory i took out. I didn't micro it though.

2. See above, actually the mallory I took out did not need any bent tin, but was a very tight fit, much more room with this dist.

4. This dist did not cause my problem. While it was coincidence I think it was the 914 gods letting me know i need to do a partial rebuild with out leaving me stranded. I get my engine yoke tomorrow and will pull the heads. The outside inspection shows the previous builder swapped left and right head. This means the valve dropped on cyl 2 which was actually cyl 3 on the opposite side. Must have had a rough life.

Posted by: Millerwelds Nov 26 2017, 07:20 PM

Fired up. Needed a full tune up so changed oil, plugs and wires then fired it up with the old ignition in place to make sure I was starting with a good base point. Then jacked up one wheel and rotated till rotor was pointed at #1 slot on old dizzy. Pulled old dizzy, put oil on new dizzy shaft to slide spacer over o ring. Made sure offset gear at bottom of new dizzy was in approximate right position and dropped it into place. Slipped right in. Gear clicked in place and dropped all the way down without issue. Rotor was pointed in about the same position (not 180 degrees off as some have experienced). Switched plug wires onto new cap. Plugged in red lead to the coil after adding correct fitting to the wire. Plugged the FI wires into the FI harness. These come preset with the correct ends. Mine fit snug. I do not foresee any loose connection issues there. Then turned on ignition and rotated till green light came on, backed it off a little till light went off. Then minute adjustment till light just comes on. Turned ignition off, plugged in black wire to coil. Put cap/wires in place and locked down cap. Tried to start. Close, but no cigar. Took a break. Went back out, popped the cap, unhooked black wire, redid the green light adjustment, hooked all back up. Started right up. Idled good. Shut it down as it is raining dogs so will wait till I can warm it up some before setting timing with timing light. Does not like to sit at 3500 RPM when cold... this is a 74 Djet 2.0. I set it to setting 2 and plugged the vacuum ports on the throttle body. Left the vacuum port open on the dizzy. Plan on running that way for awhile then see if I need to mess with the vacuum option. My understanding is it was for smog so thinking I can run without it. No adjustment to tins or anything else needed. Plug and play. Without the vacuum canister it is a smaller package overall. Dizzy body size is about the same size as stock. Hope this helps those with questions. beerchug.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 26 2017, 08:33 PM

QUOTE(Millerwelds @ Nov 26 2017, 05:20 PM) *

Fired up. Needed a full tune up so changed oil, plugs and wires then fired it up with the old ignition in place to make sure I was starting with a good base point. Then jacked up one wheel and rotated till rotor was pointed at #1 slot on old dizzy. Pulled old dizzy, put oil on new dizzy shaft to slide spacer over o ring. Made sure offset gear at bottom of new dizzy was in approximate right position and dropped it into place. Slipped right in. Gear clicked in place and dropped all the way down without issue. Rotor was pointed in about the same position (not 180 degrees off as some have experienced). Switched plug wires onto new cap. Plugged in red lead to the coil after adding correct fitting to the wire. Plugged the FI wires into the FI harness. These come preset with the correct ends. Mine fit snug. I do not foresee any loose connection issues there. Then turned on ignition and rotated till green light came on, backed it off a little till light went off. Then minute adjustment till light just comes on. Turned ignition off, plugged in black wire to coil. Put cap/wires in place and locked down cap. Tried to start. Close, but no cigar. Took a break. Went back out, popped the cap, unhooked black wire, redid the green light adjustment, hooked all back up. Started right up. Idled good. Shut it down as it is raining dogs so will wait till I can warm it up some before setting timing with timing light. Does not like to sit at 3500 RPM when cold... this is a 74 Djet 2.0. I set it to setting 2 and plugged the vacuum ports on the throttle body. Left the vacuum port open on the dizzy. Plan on running that way for awhile then see if I need to mess with the vacuum option. My understanding is it was for smog so thinking I can run without it. No adjustment to tins or anything else needed. Plug and play. Without the vacuum canister it is a smaller package overall. Dizzy body size is about the same size as stock. Hope this helps those with questions. beerchug.gif



Hunh.

I would recommend plugging both ports with caps if you aren't going to use the advance or retard ports.

Why didn't you choose setting B? I have a 1.7 and I used setting 2 according to the Bosch part No. chart.

Posted by: JMT Nov 26 2017, 11:36 PM

Just to confirm, you don't need to relocate oil line, you can see the clearance in one of my pics, However, I did have to file away a little of the fan shroud near the base of the dizzy. I couldn't get it to sit flush on the case. The washer/spacer on the 123 is a little bigger than a stock dizzy shaft.

Posted by: McMark Nov 27 2017, 09:37 AM

Vacuum ports on a distributor should never be capped. On any car. Ever.

Either left open, or connected via a hose to the intake/plenum/wherever.

Never capped.

No really. Never. Spread the word.... ph34r.gif

Posted by: Millerwelds Nov 27 2017, 01:20 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 27 2017, 08:37 AM) *

Vacuum ports on a distributor should never be capped. On any car. Ever.

Either left open, or connected via a hose to the intake/plenum/wherever.

Never capped.

No really. Never. Spread the word.... ph34r.gif


To clarify in my case the ports on the throttle body are capped. The port on the dizzy is not.

Posted by: Millerwelds Nov 27 2017, 01:40 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 26 2017, 07:33 PM) *

Why didn't you choose setting B? I have a 1.7 and I used setting 2 according to the Bosch part No. chart.


In referencing https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/djetparts.htm
It shows Porsche part # 039 905 205 A as the correct dizzy for my car (mine had been replaced by a different unit previously) and 0 231 174 011 as the Bosch part number

The 123 manual shows both switch 2 and switch B as being for the Bosch 0 231 174 011.
Both show the same advance start of 1000 and max advance of 2700/22,0.

I took that to mean the 2 setting use the same curve and the only difference is if the vacuum is positive or negative. Since I am not planning on using the vacuum port I assumed I could use either setting with the same results...

I am no expert by any means so if I am missing something I'd love to hear it. beerchug.gif

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 27 2017, 08:04 PM

Hey Good News
All orders but four hit the post today...Unfortunately Fedex lost 13 units out of the boxes coming with the Group Buy Order. I filled the purchases in the order in which they were placed. Unfortunately there are four who have been notified that they will experience a delay until I can get the lost units replaced. Unless you got an email your unit has been shipped. Thanks so much! I will try to expedite this debacle and keep those informed when I know more. Any questions feel free to call or text Ed 440-668-8164
Hope this helps headbang.gif
Ed

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 27 2017, 08:11 PM

QUOTE(JMT @ Nov 27 2017, 12:36 AM) *

Just to confirm, you don't need to relocate oil line, you can see the clearance in one of my pics, However, I did have to file away a little of the fan shroud near the base of the dizzy. I couldn't get it to sit flush on the case. The washer/spacer on the 123 is a little bigger than a stock dizzy shaft.

JMT
Do you have the OD of the stock dizzy where you had to file away?

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 27 2017, 08:17 PM

QUOTE(Millerwelds @ Nov 27 2017, 11:40 AM) *

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 26 2017, 07:33 PM) *

Why didn't you choose setting B? I have a 1.7 and I used setting 2 according to the Bosch part No. chart.


In referencing https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/djetparts.htm
It shows Porsche part # 039 905 205 A as the correct dizzy for my car (mine had been replaced by a different unit previously) and 0 231 174 011 as the Bosch part number

The 123 manual shows both switch 2 and switch B as being for the Bosch 0 231 174 011.
Both show the same advance start of 1000 and max advance of 2700/22,0.

I took that to mean the 2 setting use the same curve and the only difference is if the vacuum is positive or negative. Since I am not planning on using the vacuum port I assumed I could use either setting with the same results...

I am no expert by any means so if I am missing something I'd love to hear it. beerchug.gif




Well I noticed that and I was wondering because this dizzy will eventually be going on a 2.0 with a 74 D-jet setup. Right now it is running flawlessly on setting 1 on a 1.7. I mistakenly posted it was on 2. It is set on 1. Too much holiday cheer I quess.

A little research has gleaned this, mostly from this site. Which port to use off the TB, advance or retard. On the 1.7 I used only the advance port off the TB as that is how I interpreted the table even though the distributor it replaced had a combination vacuum can. I just plugged the hose on the PLENUM side, NOT the dizzy side. Oh...BTW...NEVER plug the nipple on the dizzy side......spreading the word, although it would be nice to lnow why poke.gif biggrin.gif

So with that being said, I have a TB with two ports one for advance and one for retard. I would assume for the 2.0 build I would also use the advance port for the dizzy vac port.

I can only assume that you would use the letter setting when you had only the retard port on the TB? Maybe someone can confirm.

I can confirm this with the advent of our Thanksgiving heat wave here in So Cal. In 96 deg heat uphill on part load and at cruise there were no issues with pinging or other issues.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 27 2017, 09:45 PM

On the stock distributors, you don't plug the ports on the distributor dashpot (vacuum thingie) because that keeps the diaphragm inside the dashpot from moving as freely as it is supposed to.

When the factory discontinued the vacuum advance on the 914, they ran a hose from that fitting down under the plenum, and left it disconnected. The hose seems to have been used mostly to keep people from freaking out about a bare fitting...

--DD

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 27 2017, 10:33 PM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 27 2017, 07:45 PM) *

On the stock distributors, you don't plug the ports on the distributor dashpot (vacuum thingie) because that keeps the diaphragm inside the dashpot from moving as freely as it is supposed to.

When the factory discontinued the vacuum advance on the 914, they ran a hose from that fitting down under the plenum, and left it disconnected. The hose seems to have been used mostly to keep people from freaking out about a bare fitting...

--DD



Thanks Dave. Of course. It would freeze or limit the advance plate so it wouldn't move as much from the centrifugal advance.

This could be troublesome. Holiday cheer IS wearing off.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 27 2017, 10:41 PM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 27 2017, 07:45 PM) *

On the stock distributors, you don't plug the ports on the distributor dashpot (vacuum thingie) because that keeps the diaphragm inside the dashpot from moving as freely as it is supposed to.

When the factory discontinued the vacuum advance on the 914, they ran a hose from that fitting down under the plenum, and left it disconnected. The hose seems to have been used mostly to keep people from freaking out about a bare fitting...

--DD



...you mean a bare nipple.

Posted by: 98101 Nov 27 2017, 10:45 PM

Soooo close. Still hoping some kind soul would be willing to help me with this:

QUOTE(98101 @ Nov 26 2017, 04:17 PM) *

3) As I understand it, the Bluetooth version arrives with an empty brain. Would anyone else with a similar engine as mine (2270, Dellorto 45s, Web hot street cam, cool Pacific NW climate a little above sea level) be willing to share your configuration tables with me?


or at least tables that would work the same as my 009 until I can optimize them?

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 27 2017, 11:25 PM

QUOTE(98101 @ Nov 27 2017, 08:45 PM) *

Soooo close. Still hoping some kind soul would be willing to help me with this:
QUOTE(98101 @ Nov 26 2017, 04:17 PM) *

3) As I understand it, the Bluetooth version arrives with an empty brain. Would anyone else with a similar engine as mine (2270, Dellorto 45s, Web hot street cam, cool Pacific NW climate a little above sea level) be willing to share your configuration tables with me?


or at least tables that would work the same as my 009 until I can optimize them?



This thread has some good info.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=319841

Posted by: McMark Nov 28 2017, 07:59 AM

Yup, Dave's got it.

The vacuum chambers (of any sort) are obviously sealed, except for the port/tube. When you apply vacuum to the chamber, it pulls the advance mechanism. When you leave the port open and disconnected, changes in the advance mechanism (because of centrifugal advance) will essentially work backwards down to the vacuum diaphragm. These movements of the vacuum diaphragm force air in and out of the vacuum chamber. If the port is plugged, you're restricting that movement because not the vacuum chamber is sealed and it become a pressure chamber. That pressure buildup can have erratic effects on timing as the air pressure tries to force the advance mechanism back.

Maybe this would be clearer. If you take a plastic soda bottle, and you cap it, you can't squeeze it like you can if it's not capped. The vacuum advance mechanism is meant to move, so if you cap it you're stopping or reducing the movement of the whole advance mechanism.

Posted by: 98101 Nov 28 2017, 12:12 PM

QUOTE(123ignitionusa @ Nov 19 2017, 05:43 PM) *

QUOTE(rfinegan @ Nov 18 2017, 03:27 PM) *

I wish I got in on the buy before I realized i need one of these...any chance for another group buy for black Friday special?
sad.gif

For those who missed out use 914world5 for a 5% discount. If your group reaches 5 units then 10%. Offer expires Dec 3rd.
Hope this helpEd

OK, I placed my order. Looks like we're still in 5% discount territory.

I didn't order the coil because the car already has a 2010 Pertronix "Flame Thrower." Let me know if this wouldn't work.

If anyone's in the Seattle area and wants to make sure I don't screw up the install, I'll be happy to drive to your place (on a less rainy day... car isn't set up for rain).

I'm guessing my car has issues beyond ignition timing but maybe easier to fix those things with decent timing set up.

--Michael, novice in Seattle

Posted by: rfinegan Nov 28 2017, 12:53 PM

I hope to get my order in right before the deadline this week end...

Posted by: 123ignitionusa Nov 28 2017, 09:33 PM

For those replacing the Bosch 009 here is the curve for that. It is from the TUNE Software but the values can be loaded into your Bluetooth. It will be a good starting point. No vacuum on this curve
http://123ignitionusa.com/content/Example5.xml
Here is a link to the http://123ignitionusa.com/download-custom-curves-for-your-123/. Somewhat limited but there is one near the bottom for an 009 with vacuum too.
So far only one on the next group buy.
Hope this helps
Ed

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 28 2017, 09:45 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 27 2017, 08:41 PM) *
...you mean a bare nipple.


HEY! Take that to the Sandbox!!!



lol2.gif


--DD

Posted by: stevend914 Nov 29 2017, 02:05 PM

QUOTE(123ignitionusa @ Nov 27 2017, 08:04 PM) *

Hey Good News
All orders but four hit the post today...Unfortunately Fedex lost 13 units out of the boxes coming with the Group Buy Order. I filled the purchases in the order in which they were placed. Unfortunately there are four who have been notified that they will experience a delay until I can get the lost units replaced. Unless you got an email your unit has been shipped. Thanks so much! I will try to expedite this debacle and keep those informed when I know more. Any questions feel free to call or text Ed 440-668-8164
Hope this helps headbang.gif
Ed


One of the four - oh well - I wasn't in a hurry anyway

Posted by: pete000 Nov 29 2017, 04:59 PM

Interesting that the Richie Ginther 914-4 modified the stock distributor by removing the vacuum canister altogether.

Also removed the FI harness due to Carb conversion.


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Posted by: 98101 Nov 29 2017, 05:44 PM

QUOTE(pete000 @ Nov 29 2017, 02:59 PM) *

Interesting that the Richie Ginther 914-4 modified the stock distributor by removing the vacuum canister altogether.

I thought it might be useful to experiment with vacuum advance, but Mark Henry suggests it might not be useful for my carb and cam set up.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=320218&view=findpost&p=2552875

Posted by: BillC Dec 5 2017, 06:33 PM

Curve 1 or curve A?

I have a '73 1.7 with factory D-Jet injection. The stock distributor is a Bosch 007. The booklet that comes with the 123Ignition distributor shows two choices for that distributor: 1 and A. If I'm reading the booklet right, curve 1 is vacuum advance and curve 2 is vacuum retard. Which is the correct curve to choose on the distributor: 1 or A?

I think curve 1 (vacuum advance) is the correct one, but thought I should double-check just to be safe.

Thanks!

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 5 2017, 07:31 PM

1 and use the advance port for the dizzy.

Posted by: BillC Dec 5 2017, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Dec 5 2017, 08:31 PM) *

1 and use the advance port for the dizzy.

Thanks for the confirmation.

As for the second part, I'm guessing you mean to make sure to connect the vacuum port on the throttle body to the vacuum port on the distributor? If so, already done. A vacuum advance (or retard) doesn't work very well without a vacuum signal.

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 5 2017, 10:00 PM

QUOTE(BillC @ Dec 5 2017, 07:11 PM) *

QUOTE(914_teener @ Dec 5 2017, 08:31 PM) *

1 and use the advance port for the dizzy.

Thanks for the confirmation.

As for the second part, I'm guessing you mean to make sure to connect the vacuum port on the throttle body to the vacuum port on the distributor? If so, already done. A vacuum advance (or retard) doesn't work very well without a vacuum signal.



Yes and that you have the advance port from the TB to the dizzy port. There are two on the 1.7 TB on the 73 , advance and retard.

Think someone posted a nice picture. Don't know right know cause to lazy to look it up.

Posted by: clapeza Dec 6 2017, 08:27 AM

On the 72-73 D-Jet FI, at least:
With the throttle body intake facing you, with the TPS on the bottom, the retard port is the 3mm vacuum hose fitting on the left side, facing out. Capping it can be a little difficult just because of access.
The advance port is on the right side, 2mm hose, facing up. Should you cap it, it's simple to access.

Posted by: BillC Dec 6 2017, 10:00 AM

QUOTE(clapeza @ Dec 6 2017, 09:27 AM) *

On the 72-73 D-Jet FI, at least:
With the throttle body intake facing you, with the TPS on the bottom, the retard port is the 3mm vacuum hose fitting on the left side, facing out. Capping it can be a little difficult just because of access.
The advance port is on the right side, 2mm hose, facing up. Should you cap it, it's simple to access.

Since I do better with diagrams, you're saying the vacuum lines from the throttle body to the stock distributor should be connected as shown in this diagram:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/technical_specs/914_17FI_diag.htm
Correct? Of course, that diagram is for a '70 and my car is a '73, but they should be similar enough.

If that's the case, then my distributor vacuum hoses have been switched/backwards since before I bought the car. However, the canister on the distributor has different size ports, and it would seem to make sense for the port sizes on the throttle body to match the port sizes on the canister. If that's the case, then the diagram is backward.

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 6 2017, 11:07 AM

QUOTE(BillC @ Dec 6 2017, 08:00 AM) *

QUOTE(clapeza @ Dec 6 2017, 09:27 AM) *

On the 72-73 D-Jet FI, at least:
With the throttle body intake facing you, with the TPS on the bottom, the retard port is the 3mm vacuum hose fitting on the left side, facing out. Capping it can be a little difficult just because of access.
The advance port is on the right side, 2mm hose, facing up. Should you cap it, it's simple to access.

Since I do better with diagrams, you're saying the vacuum lines from the throttle body to the stock distributor should be connected as shown in this diagram:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/technical_specs/914_17FI_diag.htm
Correct? Of course, that diagram is for a '70 and my car is a '73, but they should be similar enough.

If that's the case, then my distributor vacuum hoses have been switched/backwards since before I bought the car. However, the canister on the distributor has different size ports, and it would seem to make sense for the port sizes on the throttle body to match the port sizes on the canister. If that's the case, then the diagram is backward.



The red hose is the advance hose, hook this up to the port on the 123 dizzy. Cap the other port, use setting 1.

Posted by: BillC Dec 6 2017, 04:16 PM

Umm, nevermind about the backward hoses. Turns out my old distributor was connected just fine and this was simply a case of early-onset CRS blink.gif (shoulda taken a pic before disconnecting stuff headbang.gif ).

Posted by: pete000 Dec 10 2017, 01:21 AM

OK, got around to put in my 123 Blue Tooth Distributor tonight in my 714 1.8 L-Jet.

No issues at all, just set the car to TDC, pulled the old distributor out, popped in the 123, rotated the distributor body until the green light came on, tightened it down. Programmed my advance curve. Fired right up.

It is really neat to be able to watch the advance working and verify its doing just what you want it to. Car seems so much more responsive. Lots of power and torque no ping just pulls like crazy. I am extremely happy with this group buy ! Thanks for setting it up. The 123 is a very impressive product. smilie_pokal.gif

Here are some pictures and my advance curve. (Not running any Vacuum advance or retard)


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Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image

Posted by: echocanyons Dec 17 2017, 02:10 AM

I didn’t get in on group discount but I picked one up anyway.

Seems like a great addition to my sons McMark built 1996 with Ljet

Does anyone have any suggestions for maps for this?

Posted by: pete000 Dec 17 2017, 05:16 PM

Here is the map I am running right now. I’m running 100 octain leaded aviation fuel and this map pulls like crazy. Will bump it back to 30 degrees all in on regular pump gas.


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Posted by: 98101 Dec 26 2017, 01:18 PM

You guys usually connect the blue wire, right?

Posted by: echocanyons Dec 26 2017, 02:02 PM

I believe the blue wire is a ground.

Posted by: 98101 Dec 26 2017, 04:25 PM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Dec 26 2017, 12:02 PM) *

I believe the blue wire is a ground.

Yes thanks -- got it working this morning.

It's very cool.

Posted by: 98101 Jan 2 2018, 04:32 PM

Moving this from another thread:

Even though my car doesn't have a stock camshaft, I'm thinking of experimenting with manifold vacuum advance, pulling from four holes that already exist in my manifold. My theory is I should be able to compensate for the Web cam's weaker vacuum signal with the configuration over Bluetooth.

I especially like Mark Henry's suggestion below:

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 31 2017, 09:02 PM) *

I've always used mechanical advance on dual carbs, but I've heard of peeps using vacuum advance. no idea if it worked well for them. I have seen vacuum used for the bus brake MC, you have to pull off all the runners to get a steady signal. For a dizzy I would also use all four and maybe try running to a small can and take the dizzy vac from that can.


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Has anyone tried this yet?

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 2 2018, 07:38 PM

Just wondering with a programmable dizzy why?

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 2 2018, 09:14 PM

He's concerned about the red advance hose? I was under the impression the model for carbs didn't require a vacuum signal.

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 2 2018, 10:50 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 2 2018, 07:14 PM) *

He's concerned about the red advance hose? I was under the impression the model for carbs didn't require a vacuum signal.



You are correct Kevin. If you can modulate the curve digitally with blue tooth .....don.t understand where the vacuum hose would go.

You shouldn.t need it.

Posted by: Rand Jan 2 2018, 10:51 PM

Many of us can't use the bluetooth version. Like me with Djet.

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 2 2018, 10:55 PM

QUOTE(Rand @ Jan 2 2018, 08:51 PM) *

Many of us can't use the bluetooth version. Like me with Djet.



Yes....but he is using carbs....that version uses blue tooth...at least you could with the 123 dizzy.

I am running my djet version with the vacuum advance hooked up.
It is running great.

Posted by: 98101 Jan 3 2018, 02:27 AM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 2 2018, 07:14 PM) *

He's concerned about the red advance hose? I was under the impression the model for carbs didn't require a vacuum signal.

Yes, it's running the Bluetooth model now (with carbs) just using an RPM-based curve and the vacuum sensor disconnected. But everything I've read suggests street cars run even better when the ignition timing incorporates both RPM and manifold vacuum*. As I understand it, we want a bit more advance during lean conditions such as cruising down the freeway, and a bit less advance during rich conditions such as wide open throttle.

I am a newbie with little practical experience with this, but I never liked my 009 and I'm skeptical of the idea the optimum ignition timing for street use would only sense RPM while ignoring manifold vacuum. Why did so many stock distributors sense both?

* I'm ignoring port vacuum retard since I read in another thread that was only added as a crude emissions-control measure.

Posted by: BeatNavy Jan 3 2018, 05:26 AM

I think you're confusing a couple of things here. The stock dizzys, as I understand it, can have up to three forms of advance/retard, depending on your model.

1. Vacuum advance, which is just the initial advance to help with acceleration and throttle response at low engine speed. Not all 914 throttle bodies have a port for this, and I think the later 2.0 models actually did away with it.

2. Mechanical advance, which is the primary method of advance to "optimize" timing up to about 3000 RPM, when it maxes out.

3. Retard, to reduce emissions at idle.

You've got carbs and I don't know your setup, but the 1-2-3 does all this precisely based on a programmable advance curve because it "knows" the actual engine speed. The vacuum advance and mechanical advance were the engineers' best tools available back then to estimate engine speed and attempt to optimize timing at different engine speeds / conditions. They did an amazing job, but these tools wear out over time and become less accurate. This system is more accurate AND it can easily be changed based on your needs/preferences.


Posted by: 98101 Jan 3 2018, 06:12 AM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Jan 3 2018, 03:26 AM) *

I think you're confusing a couple of things here. The stock dizzys, as I understand it, can have up to three forms of advance/retard, depending on your model.

1. Vacuum advance, which is just the initial advance to help with acceleration and throttle response at low engine speed. Not all 914 throttle bodies have a port for this, and I think the later 2.0 models actually did away with it.

2. Mechanical advance, which is the primary method of advance to "optimize" timing up to about 3000 RPM, when it maxes out.

3. Retard, to reduce emissions at idle.

You've got carbs and I don't know your setup, but the 1-2-3 does all this precisely based on a programmable advance curve because it "knows" the actual engine speed. The vacuum advance and mechanical advance were the engineers' best tools available back then to estimate engine speed and attempt to optimize timing at different engine speeds / conditions. They did an amazing job, but these tools wear out over time and become less accurate. This system is more accurate AND it can easily be changed based on your needs/preferences.


Hmm, point taken that the 123 can sense RPM more accurately than the centrifugal weights and springs in traditional distributors -- and this is a good thing by itself. But I don't see how manifold vacuum could be a proxy for RPM. What I'm reading elsewhere suggests manifold vacuum is related to engine load.

According to this http://chevellestuff.net/tech/articles/vacuum/port_or_manifold.htm:
QUOTE
The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions.

As I understand the article, manifold vacuum is higher when the throttle plates are closed, lower when they are open. (This effect is reduced somewhat by high-lift long-duration cams.) They will be closer to closed during lean conditions (at idle, or cruising at a steady speed). We need an earlier spark because lean mixtures burn more slowly. With the richer mixture at open throttle we need a later spark to get combustion happening at the ideal time. (Otherwise would we get pinging like my Bosch 009 914 tended to do in hot Phoenix years ago?) If I'm reading this right, we'll get closer to the ideal time to fire the sparkplug by combining vacuum information with RPM information, as the 123 is capable of doing... effectively a 3D map.

Example I in a 123 manual discusses how to emulate a "Bosch-distributor 0.231.170.034 for Volkswagen" which is sensitive both to RPM and vacuum. I'm just figuring this stuff out myself, but my guess is that lots of stock distributors for lots of cars used both RPM and vacuum.
http://www.123ignition.nl/files/manuals/123manual_TUNEPLUS.pdf

Posted by: BeatNavy Jan 3 2018, 06:36 AM

You are correct in that manifold vacuum is lowest at wide open throttle, higher at part load, higher still at idle, and highest on overrun (high RPM, closed throttle). In a stock 914 (D-Jet anyway), the mixture is managed primarily by the MPS / ECU based on these conditions.

Someone else can do a better job of explaining how it's done with carbs, because that's more of an "art." Having said all that, you have to determine the best advance curve based on your specific setup. That means a combination of setting / jetting the carbs the way you want them and programming the advance curve on the 1-2-3 the way it makes the most sense for you for different engine speeds. Because I have D-Jet where mixture is controlled by other sensors, I have basically 4-preprogrammed options available to me.

The article you reference makes sense for understanding the theory of optimum advance, but primarily for non-electronic systems.

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 3 2018, 09:51 AM

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Jan 3 2018, 04:36 AM) *

You are correct in that manifold vacuum is lowest at wide open throttle, higher at part load, higher still at idle, and highest on overrun (high RPM, closed throttle). In a stock 914 (D-Jet anyway), the mixture is managed primarily by the MPS / ECU based on these conditions.

Someone else can do a better job of explaining how it's done with carbs, because that's more of an "art." Having said all that, you have to determine the best advance curve based on your specific setup. That means a combination of setting / jetting the carbs the way you want them and programming the advance curve on the 1-2-3 the way it makes the most sense for you for different engine speeds. Because I have D-Jet where mixture is controlled by other sensors, I have basically 4-preprogrammed options available to me.

The article you reference makes sense for understanding the theory of optimum advance, but primarily for non-electronic systems.




Almost makes the case to go back to fuel injection poke.gif ... laugh.gif

Posted by: echocanyons Jan 3 2018, 10:21 AM

Almost? biggrin.gif stirthepot.gif

Posted by: 98101 Jan 3 2018, 11:26 AM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Jan 3 2018, 07:51 AM) *

Almost makes the case to go back to fuel injection poke.gif ... laugh.gif


Trying to get the carbs to work seemed the cheaper option in my case... but I'm not sure that will turn out to be true in the long run.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 4 2018, 09:34 AM

Aftermarket dual throttle body FI $ is going to make your head explode. blowup.gif better make sure the cam in your engine supports fuel injection before you step over the cliff. You can tame the carbs for a lot less.

Posted by: Porschef Jan 4 2018, 09:46 AM

Kevin, your comment is so true, and it's only for a lack of market (I do suppose) that a kit has not been created (to the best of my limited knowledge) for T1&4 engines. When I see some members here struggle to assemble/debug their aftermarket systems, it keeps me from taking the plunge (well, that, and the aforementioned $$ issue). Is there such a thing? I see Micro/Mega,SDI, maybe another out there, but as far as I can tell, there's no true soup to nuts, bolt on plug and play system out there...

I had to pass on the 123 group buy, I'd been wanting to start a thread on the satisfaction quotient for those who purchased them, but likewise, it seems that all bugs have not been worked out as yet. confused24.gif

Posted by: BeatNavy Jan 4 2018, 10:41 AM

QUOTE(Porschef @ Jan 4 2018, 10:46 AM) *

I had to pass on the 123 group buy, I'd been wanting to start a thread on the satisfaction quotient for those who purchased them, but likewise, it seems that all bugs have not been worked out as yet. confused24.gif

I'm very happy with mine at this point. My "bugs" were primarily from confusion about which advance curve to select. This was partly because my D-Jet setup was a little cobbled together previously (my original dizzy wasn't correct for my car, which I didn't even know at the time). I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it for someone who's looking at this product for their teener...

Posted by: StratPlayer Jan 4 2018, 10:54 AM

Best replacement for the oem dizzy. I've been running mine well over a year now and its flawless. D-Jet 2056. Late model

Posted by: 98101 Jan 4 2018, 10:55 AM

QUOTE(Porschef @ Jan 4 2018, 07:46 AM) *

I had to pass on the 123 group buy, I'd been wanting to start a thread on the satisfaction quotient for those who purchased them, but likewise, it seems that all bugs have not been worked out as yet. confused24.gif

I haven't heard of any bugs with it. I'm pretty excited about its advantages over the 009 it replaced in my car.

Posted by: Porschef Jan 4 2018, 11:38 AM

Michael, I wasn't inferring bugs with the units themselves, just figuring out what curves to use. The Bluetooth is an awesome setup.

Are you satisfied with it's performance? I've got a 205A (I believe) dizzy and I'm sure it's the last foible in my tuning process... dry.gif

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 4 2018, 12:35 PM

FWIW. That '205' can be misleading. Looking at the handy AA catalog, if your complete # is 039 905 '205A' that is for a 2.0 engine. Djet. A better dist for carbs is 022 905 205AB. Ljet.

Posted by: Millerwelds Jan 4 2018, 04:29 PM

After running mine for awhile I noticed a few things. 2.0 FI. Car used to stumble when cold starting. It would start, start to increase rpm, hiccup and would stall if I did not goose the throttle a bit. Now it does not do that at all.

Idle seems a bit higher (I have yet to actually set the timing as it runs so good I am just going with it till I get a little more time to play around). I will likely adjust idle down a bit for now and really set it in summer when it 100+ again. In the past when at top of the heat range it would drop the idle very low and want to stall. Which meant idle at cold start was pretty high to over adjust for that. I suspect that will go away once all dialed in now too.

Pulls very good. Pulls higher into the rpm range with less effort.

So far very happy. beerchug.gif

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 4 2018, 05:36 PM

QUOTE(Porschef @ Jan 4 2018, 07:46 AM) *

Kevin, your comment is so true, and it's only for a lack of market (I do suppose) that a kit has not been created (to the best of my limited knowledge) for T1&4 engines. When I see some members here struggle to assemble/debug their aftermarket systems, it keeps me from taking the plunge (well, that, and the aforementioned $$ issue). Is there such a thing? I see Micro/Mega,SDI, maybe another out there, but as far as I can tell, there's no true soup to nuts, bolt on plug and play system out there...

I had to pass on the 123 group buy, I'd been wanting to start a thread on the satisfaction quotient for those who purchased them, but likewise, it seems that all bugs have not been worked out as yet. confused24.gif

agree.gif

No bugs.....no points....no problems so far....I have driven the snot out of my car since I have installed it....even it over 100 degree temps. My car is bone stock D.jet.

Wish I put it on the dyno before and after...but mine seems to pull faster as well into the higher rpm range.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 4 2018, 05:56 PM

Are the 123 internals as delicate as the pertronix and like setups or the even the
Mallorys?

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 4 2018, 06:04 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 4 2018, 03:56 PM) *

Are the 123 internals as delicate as the pertronix and like setups or the even the
Mallorys?



They look more robust to me....I don.t know about Mallory.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 4 2018, 06:09 PM

Maybe I should say forgiving.

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 4 2018, 07:10 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 4 2018, 04:09 PM) *

Maybe I should say forgiving.



You mean like leaving the key on due to Alheimers forgiving to see if the electeonics burns up?

Haven.t developed it yet. Just in case I kept thenstock dizzy in tje car for now.

Posted by: pete000 Jan 4 2018, 08:25 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Jan 4 2018, 05:10 PM) *

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 4 2018, 04:09 PM) *

Maybe I should say forgiving.



You mean like leaving the key on due to Alheimers forgiving to see if the electeonics burns up?

Haven.t developed it yet. Just in case I kept thenstock dizzy in tje car for now.



I don't think the 123 has a burn up problem if you leave the key on with out the engine running like the Pertronix and such. They make no mention of this anywhere.

Posted by: Porschef Jan 4 2018, 08:47 PM

I'll have to check on that Kevin. I am running Ljet on a 2056 with a 9550 cam. I would like, no, really like to eliminate the pinging under hard acceleration at higher rpms.

This way, I could completely put my foot in it whenever... biggrin.gif

Posted by: 98101 Jan 4 2018, 11:23 PM

(double post)

Posted by: 98101 Jan 14 2018, 05:20 PM

In case anyone's curious, here's how we got a manifold vacuum signal to the 123. The T on the left going down through the tin leads to my mechanical vacuum gauge on the dash (which came with the car). On the mechanical vacuum gauge the reading was a bit bumpy (even using two cylinders), but the 123 software seems to know how to dampen this (e.g. a low-pass filter), as it showed a steady signal in the 123 Tune app.

I'll probably add an inline fuel filter to smooth out the signal on my vacuum gauge.

Out of curiosity we also tried plugging into the Dellorto's vacuum port. It did indeed act like port vacuum, so not as useful for my purposes as manifold vacuum.

Doing family stuff today, so haven't yet configured a MAP curve.

Since manifold vacuum should go to zero at WOT, vacuum advance should have no impact on WOT performance (such as a dyno run). Vacuum advance should improve part-throttle performance, including drivability and fuel economy (since with the proper advance you need less pedal to cruise at a given speed).

Attached Image

Posted by: echocanyons Feb 3 2018, 03:55 PM

Is anyone having issues with this distributor?

I installed it and it was running beautifully for a short time.
Now it starts and runs fine at first but then has significant issues after driving for a few miles.
It seems like it is cutting out and not firing, this happens for a short time then it is ok for a while.

Prior to installing this there were no issues.

I really like the adjustable advance but it’s basically undrivable in its current condition.

Any ideas?

Posted by: 914_teener Feb 3 2018, 04:14 PM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Feb 3 2018, 01:55 PM) *

Is anyone having issues with this distributor?

I installed it and it was running beautifully for a short time.
Now it starts and runs fine at first but then has significant issues after driving for a few miles.
It seems like it is cutting out and not firing, this happens for a short time then it is ok for a while.

Prior to installing this there were no issues.

I really like the adjustable advance but it’s basically undrivable in its current condition.

Any ideas?



Do you have the carbed version or D-jet?


I have D-jet and I just got done with a drive....it has been running flawlessly.

My quess is that it is something else.

Posted by: echocanyons Feb 3 2018, 04:36 PM

I have the BT programmable version with L-Jet.

Posted by: 914_teener Feb 3 2018, 04:41 PM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Feb 3 2018, 02:36 PM) *

I have the BT programmable version with L-Jet.



I'd check the cap to make sure it's on securely. Then the plugs gaps and the wires.

Just a quess.

Posted by: echocanyons Feb 3 2018, 05:11 PM

I swapped out a new coil, new wires and new plugs.
No chamge with any of these.

The strange thing is that it runs like a top initially then a few miles in it cuts out. It does this continuously once it starts and is basically undrivable after that. Once you let it sit for a while it works fine, then back to the same situation.

Posted by: mgphoto Feb 3 2018, 06:29 PM

QUOTE(Porschef @ Jan 4 2018, 06:47 PM) *

I'll have to check on that Kevin. I am running Ljet on a 2056 with a 9550 cam. I would like, no, really like to eliminate the pinging under hard acceleration at higher rpms.

This way, I could completely put my foot in it whenever... biggrin.gif


I had the same issue, been dumping a bottle of MMT in a tank of regular gas, makes it act like 100 octane.
Found only 2 brands that work so far, Royal Purple and Lucas. Others don't seem to have the MMT concentration.

Posted by: mgphoto Feb 3 2018, 06:33 PM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Feb 3 2018, 03:11 PM) *

I swapped out a new coil, new wires and new plugs.
No chamge with any of these.

The strange thing is that it runs like a top initially then a few miles in it cuts out. It does this continuously once it starts and is basically undrivable after that. Once you let it sit for a while it works fine, then back to the same situation.


Check your cap and rotor for cracks, small voltage marks along the sides of the terminals shorting to ground.

Posted by: euro911 Feb 3 2018, 07:33 PM

I'd reinstall your original distributor and see if the problem is with your new distributor or something else.

Posted by: Porschef Feb 4 2018, 11:59 AM

QUOTE(mgphoto @ Feb 3 2018, 07:29 PM) *

QUOTE(Porschef @ Jan 4 2018, 06:47 PM) *

I'll have to check on that Kevin. I am running Ljet on a 2056 with a 9550 cam. I would like, no, really like to eliminate the pinging under hard acceleration at higher rpms.

This way, I could completely put my foot in it whenever... biggrin.gif


I had the same issue, been dumping a bottle of MMT in a tank of regular gas, makes it act like 100 octane.
Found only 2 brands that work so far, Royal Purple and Lucas. Others don't seem to have the MMT concentration.


Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a shot. beer.gif

Posted by: 98101 Feb 4 2018, 12:13 PM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Feb 3 2018, 01:55 PM) *

Is anyone having issues with this distributor?

I installed it and it was running beautifully for a short time.
Now it starts and runs fine at first but then has significant issues after driving for a few miles.
It seems like it is cutting out and not firing, this happens for a short time then it is ok for a while.

Prior to installing this there were no issues.

I really like the adjustable advance but it’s basically undrivable in its current condition.

Any ideas?

Have not seen this, but it's too rainy and cold to drive much where I am.

I'm curious whether there is any pattern to the temperature reading in the 123\Tune app when the problem occurs.

Posted by: echocanyons Feb 4 2018, 01:35 PM

I will give reinstalling the other distributor a shot.

I haven’t noticed a difference in the temp, I’ll have to do a test run and see.
I didn’t notice any voltage drops when this was happening on the app.

Posted by: echocanyons Feb 4 2018, 03:03 PM

What should the normal peak temp be for the distributor?

I just changed the wires and cap we will see if this helps.


Posted by: 914_teener Feb 5 2018, 12:23 AM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Feb 4 2018, 01:03 PM) *

What should the normal peak temp be for the distributor?

I just changed the wires and cap we will see if this helps.



Not sure what the normal op temperature of a stock distributor is. Good question.

There was some "loose" discussion of 90C as you might have read, might be a problem.

90C translates to 194F. I've had mine out in 100 plus temps ambient and no issues.

I have a friend with and infraometer so I'll check when I can get a hold of it. I seriously doubt that is a or THE problem.

I think it uses the Hall effect to fire the spark. Since you have L-jet it can't be an MPS magnetic field. Inductance with the coil being to close to the dizzy?

Just wild a** guesses. I agree with Mark. Put the old dizzy back in....if it runs perf then it's the dizzy.


Posted by: Morrie Feb 5 2018, 02:37 PM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Feb 3 2018, 03:55 PM) *

Is anyone having issues with this distributor?

I installed it and it was running beautifully for a short time.
Now it starts and runs fine at first but then has significant issues after driving for a few miles.
It seems like it is cutting out and not firing, this happens for a short time then it is ok for a while.

Prior to installing this there were no issues.

I really like the adjustable advance but it’s basically undrivable in its current condition.

Any ideas?


Make certain your timing is set correctly. If you are not totally sure that TDC mark visible is correct, get a bore scope or even a well placed mirror and look at the back side of the fan. A "0" should come up in the slot there for TDC on #1. Maybe you somehow have too much advance, or maybe not enough, and the engine is running too hot.

Another possibility is that there is a thermal problem with one of the components inside the distributor (defects are possible, sometimes not the fault of the manufacturer but rather the component supplier). If you have an IR thermometer, go ahead and run the car till it acts up and measure the temp at the base of the distributor near the clamp. I have seen distributors so hot they hardened and crystallized the rubber O ring. You don't want to be THAT guy.

If you have followed everyone's advice, and have a well tuned engine, plus followed the installation instructions to the letter, it may be time to exercise your right to warranty repair/replacement from 123.....

Does anyone disagree?



Posted by: StratPlayer Feb 5 2018, 03:21 PM

No disagreement here, I've been running my 123 for over a year without any problems what so ever. I'm running a D-Jet 2056 and I love this dizzy. Sorry to hear about the problems some people are having. sad.gif

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 5 2018, 03:44 PM

What is the role of the vacuum line that runs down thru the engine tin?

Posted by: 98101 Feb 5 2018, 03:48 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Feb 5 2018, 01:44 PM) *

What is the role of the vacuum line that runs down thru the engine tin?

The car came with a mechanical vacuum gauge in the dash, so I was curious to hook it up.

Posted by: 98101 Feb 11 2018, 07:31 PM

QUOTE(echocanyons @ Feb 4 2018, 01:03 PM) *

What should the normal peak temp be for the distributor?


I don't know, but today I guess my dizzy was somewhere below 140ºF while engine was up to operating temperature on a cold day. Oil temp was 175ºF and cylinder head #3 was somewhere under 350ºF. Haven't had any distributor problems yet, and motor running much better with new DRLA 45s. Wish I had heat exchangers though.

Attached Image

Posted by: echocanyons Feb 18 2018, 06:22 PM

I tried to reinstall the old dizzy but for some reason it doesn’t work, I tried a different one and got the same result. I’m not quite sure what to think about that.

In regards to heat, I had the temp up to 185 and it seemed to work fine.
I put about 50 miles on it between yesterday and today and it only started acting up on the last three miles.

I’m thinking that this may be a grounding or short issue rather than a primary issue with the dizzy.


Posted by: 1adam12 Mar 2 2018, 10:54 AM

Just out of curiosity, what is the need for the included spacer in these kits and did you have to use it for your application?

Posted by: BeatNavy Mar 2 2018, 11:01 AM

QUOTE(1adam12 @ Mar 2 2018, 11:54 AM) *

Just out of curiosity, what is the need for the included spacer in these kits and did you have to use it for your application?

The shaft of the new dizzy is too long and otherwise won't fit snug on the case. So yes, you need the spacer to get it to fit properly in a type 4.

Posted by: 1adam12 Mar 2 2018, 11:07 AM

Thank you sir!

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Mar 2 2018, 09:01 AM) *

QUOTE(1adam12 @ Mar 2 2018, 11:54 AM) *

Just out of curiosity, what is the need for the included spacer in these kits and did you have to use it for your application?

The shaft of the new dizzy is too long and otherwise won't fit snug on the case. So yes, you need the spacer to get it to fit properly in a type 4.


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