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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Do you run harnesses on the street?
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 25 2005, 01:28 PM
Just curious. is there any reason why you would wear your retratable instead of a 5 point?
And is it legal in CA?
just curious 
Posted by: MW 914 May 25 2005, 01:37 PM
I am by no means an expert, but I am going to wear my harnesses. My factory seatbelts finally became inoperable. I figure that new harnesses should be more safe than 30 year old seatbelts. More of a hassle, but more safe.
Posted by: nebreitling May 25 2005, 01:40 PM
i wear mine on the street, though i don't drive it on the street too often. not legal, as i understand it.
less safe i believe under the assumption that if you roll the car, your body is held upright in the harness (producing an "ouchie" on your head), as opposed to being able to slide down in a stock seatbelt.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 25 2005, 01:40 PM
The big problem is gonna be when your insurance company finds out your seatbelts aren't DOT approved for use in your car. Just another excuse for them to say, "so long, and thanks for all the money". The Cap'n
Posted by: Howard May 25 2005, 01:47 PM
I wear 'em. IMHO they are safer than 3 point belts and essential if you have a cage. Never had a problem with boys in blue.
Cap'n, ya wanna read me that section in a CA insurance policy? 
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 25 2005, 01:49 PM
| QUOTE (Howard @ May 25 2005, 12:47 PM) |
| I wear 'em. IMHO they are safer than 3 point belts and essential if you have a cage. Never had a problem with boys in blue. Cap'n, ya wanna read me that section in a CA insurance policy? |
our resident insurance guru!
is it legal? and will my insurance care?
Posted by: GTeener May 25 2005, 01:52 PM
I use my harness for street use because they replaced the stock belt.
I'm much more secured in my seat than with the stock belt. Hard to understand why that would be a problem for insurance or DOT 
If it is safe for a race track you'd think it would be overkill for Mayberry Lane
The insurance company would probably assume you were driving recklessly when you crashed because you had a 'race harness'. They'll try any angle to avoid a payout 
If you are going to roll your car (let's hope not) you better be sure you are cinched in tight and your head doesn't touch the roof. But that is more likely a seat issue
Posted by: Joe Ricard May 25 2005, 02:38 PM
I wear mine on the street, only belts in the car. I do only snap in one shoulder strap so if I do need to be crushed down due to roll over I can. usually have the lap belt snugged up good. Recaro SRD seat and harness bar for sholder straps to tend over and thru.
Posted by: ! May 25 2005, 05:58 PM
More of a cop attention getter, especially if they are red or another day glo color....not DOT approved but I am sure they exceed the specifications.
Never heard of anyone getting a ticket for it....it's ALL that Manfred has...belts are the LEAST of my problems if I get yanked over by the PD...hmmm, horn, wipers, turn signals, etc....
on the 911 I hide them behind the seat and use the three pointers...
Posted by: TimT May 25 2005, 06:23 PM
Aaron does your car have a rollbar/cage?
I WILL NOT use harnesses in a car that doesnt have roll over protection.
The harnesses do keep you upright in the seat, but if there is nothing to prevent the roof from collapsing in a rollover situation, I dont use harness even if they are in the car (when I instruct) sometimes the students look at me wierd when I explain my logic... but hey
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 25 2005, 06:27 PM
no cage... and i dont intend to roll it either 
so if you roll... a harness is not your friend.
how does the retractable one help with that? slump out of the way? is this the same as only running one of the upper belts?
Posted by: TimT May 25 2005, 06:29 PM
where is that video of the subaru rolling at the uphill at Lime Rock?
Posted by: MattR May 25 2005, 06:30 PM
What about the targa bar? Didnt SCCA recognize that as a roll bar until recently?
The guy I got my 914 from said it held up to a steel truck rollling over it (in a different 914 he had).
Posted by: anthony May 25 2005, 06:37 PM
http://www.vintagebus.com/gallery/movie/rollover.mpg
Posted by: drew365 May 25 2005, 06:44 PM
My car only has the 5 point harness. I don't drive on the street too often. I did get a ticket from CHP on Kanan a few months ago, he didn't say anything about the belts, wanted to know about the engine. Nice guy, but still gave me the ticket. 
Posted by: Andyrew May 25 2005, 06:54 PM
I only use one shoulder for the street, and I dont hook up the sub.
Unless I either want to impress someone, or I know im going to be going spirited....
Andrew
Posted by: hmeeder May 25 2005, 07:15 PM
We had a cop at one of our PCA tech sessions about a year ago say that the police consider 5 points to be superior to lap belts and that they don't ticket for them. The fact that they are not DOT approved means nothing to them. That's a federal definition they are far too busy to care about or pursue. Sure brightly colored harnesses will attract attention, but then most 914s with any kind of harness will attract attention for many other reasons as well.
Fact of the matter is that just because they are not DOT approved doesn't mean that they aren't safe for street use. They're just not certified for street use. The manufacturers pay for the FIA testing and the like because that is necessary for the belts to be used in competition. Most of the manufacturers don't bother with the DOT certification because the majority of use they build for is track use, not street use. If they can pass the FIA certification, they will pass the DOT certification, they just don't bother.
I wear my 5 points everywhere. I'm not sure about the thinking that they are not safe if you don't have a roll bar. The purpose behind belts and harnesses are to keep your ass in the seat, that being the safest place in a crash. Having a roll bar doesn't change that and a 5 point only makes you that much more secure.
Andyrew, I would definitely never wear only part of the harness. The sub belt is a critical component to keeping the belt in the right place on the torso and one shoulder only seems reckless. If you get in a crash, you could get seriously jacked up by misusing the harness. All the components are designed to work together to protect you. For your own health, I would reconsider that. Seriously.
My $.02, where the harness in health and safety (and with at least 1 CHPs blessing)
Posted by: Series9 May 25 2005, 07:24 PM
| QUOTE (TimT @ May 25 2005, 05:23 PM) |
| I WILL NOT use harnesses in a car that doesnt have roll over protection. |
As far as I'm concerned, every 914 came from the factory with excellent roll over protection.
I use my 5-point harness for the street.
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 25 2005, 07:46 PM
very cool. i love this club.
consenting and dissenting opinions. gives you the best views from both angles.
Posted by: cha914 May 25 2005, 08:00 PM
I agree with Tim and many roadracers I have met. Harnesses are not safe unless you have a roll bar. The harness will keep you bolt upright in the seat, which means you have no where to go when you roll and the roof starts coming down on your head...just watch a few rollover vids and you will get the picture.
I also don't wear harnesses on the street because when I was wearing them all the time (I do have a roll bar) I was noticing that I did not tighten them up all the way when using them. This means that when you do hit something you are more likely to slide under the lap belt and injure yourself (legs hitting the dash/wheel, lap belt doing internal injuries to your organs as it slids up your chest, neck getting caught on the buckle/ wide ass belt...etc...) A 3 point has the retraction mechanism which keeps the belt snug (at least if yours still work, I upgraded to 944 belts cause mine didn't).
So I see no problem with wearing a harness on the street if you have a rollbar and you snug the belts up tight everytime you drive the car, cause that is the way they were made to work, otherwise you are probably less safe than a good working 3 point...IMHO of course...
good luck and be safe out there...
Tony
Posted by: seanery May 25 2005, 08:03 PM
I don't think I'd use them on the street.
Do you guys remember http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=660&hl=
Granted, this is a race car WITH a roll cage...but look at the damage it took even with the cage! 
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 25 2005, 08:08 PM
car is a daily driver..... and a weekend racer.... eventually becoming an only weekend car
wont see the track...just spirited street and a several AX's a year
hmmmm.....
Posted by: TimT May 25 2005, 08:15 PM
| QUOTE |
| As far as I'm concerned, every 914 came from the factory with excellent roll over protection. |
nope not even close....
maybe 30 years ago that was good rollover protection...
And most of the cars I instruct in are late model BMWs and Porsches with harness bars and five point belts..Im sure the rollover protection it the new car is fine. Tthe 914 has a nice targa bar (how rusty?) and spindly lilttle A-pillars, and a fibreglass roof . Your choice of restraint should be based on a safety system. This debate has many pros and cons all with merit.
Granted street driving is allegedly safer that track driving NOT
Posted by: SirAndy May 25 2005, 08:19 PM
guys!
do what i do, i run the early style *non*-retracteable seatbelts!
look and work like a normal 3 point seatbelt on the street and give you the nice and snug feeling of a 5-belt racing harness on the track!
Andy
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 25 2005, 08:31 PM
| QUOTE (Howard @ May 25 2005, 11:47 AM) |
| I wear 'em. IMHO they are safer than 3 point belts and essential if you have a cage. Never had a problem with boys in blue. Cap'n, ya wanna read me that section in a CA insurance policy? |
Prolly isn't written into the policy as a specific item. Same for SS braided brake lines. But I guarandamnteeyou if there's a possibility they can use 'em as ammunition to question a claim, or as an excuse to cancel your policy, they will. The term "Modified for racing" comes to mind. Remember, they're the reason we have absurd speed limits, despite an overwhelming number of studies telling scholars speed doesn't kill, and we have seat belts, air bags, padded everything, heavy cars, and all those "safety features" on our roads, when the really need to enforce better driver traing and driver attitude ............................ The Cap'n
Posted by: scott thacher May 25 2005, 09:19 PM
i was looking at some harnesses online today quite a few also had dot and tuv certifications
Posted by: itsa914 May 25 2005, 09:48 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ May 25 2005, 06:19 PM) |
| guys! do what i do, i run the early style *non*-retracteable seatbelts! look and work like a normal 3 point seatbelt on the street and give you the nice and snug feeling of a 5-belt racing harness on the track! Andy |
I hate my early style belts., hence the 5 points I just got (thanks Dan)
And I say
about 5 point belts being unsafe for street use. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm 5'7" and I have plenty of head room before the targa bar would crush down to my head level and if I'm going that fast on the street for that to happen then I don't think a 3 point belt would matter either. Got to ask, has anyone here been in a rollover crash, teener or not? I have, a 76 Chevy Nova Concours going approx 40mph, it was a slow roll but still a rollover. My 3 point did its job, I stayed in my seat but you could still see the mark on my neck from the belt for 3 months afterwards.
My point is this, I feel that a 5 point belt would have kept me from flaying like a rag doll during the roll even at 40 mph I felt like it was rolling at a 100 mph. Its a matter of choice, for a car that I drive ever day they would be PITA but for a car that sees some street use and is used for "NON" street activities then I say go for it.
Posted by: campbellcj May 25 2005, 10:08 PM
I don't drive mine on the street much at all, but it only has 5-points and no street belts. AFAIK they are not street legal in Calif. and probably not anywhere as they're not DOT approved. Usually I just buckle the laps + left shoulder belt when cruising sloooooowly past the Sheriff station around the corner, but in the canyons I hook up the other side.
Knock on wood -- no law enforcement hassles so far even with noise, race numbers, etc....
Posted by: Howard May 25 2005, 10:43 PM
| QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ May 25 2005, 07:31 PM) |
| Cap'n, ya wanna read me that section in a CA insurance policy? [/QUOTE] Prolly isn't written into the policy as a specific item. Same for SS braided brake lines. But I guarandamnteeyou if there's a possibility they can use 'em as ammunition to question a claim, or as an excuse to cancel your policy, they will. The term "Modified for racing" comes to mind. Remember, they're the reason we have absurd speed limits, despite an overwhelming number of studies telling scholars speed doesn't kill, and we have seat belts, air bags, padded everything, heavy cars, and all those "safety features" on our roads, when the really need to enforce better driver traing and driver attitude ............................ The Cap'n |
OK, Cap'n. You be the insurance expert and I'll field your questions on EFI, tranny rebuilds, and plate tectonics
So here's a short test. My daughter just bought a used MBZ with a fugly f/g spoiler that was glued (?) to the back window. As an expert mechanic, I soaked the adhesive in Goof Off, then tried to pry it off the glass. The verrrry expensive glass shattered.
Would this be covered? Why? Or why not? If they did pay the claim could they cancel my insurance? Raise my rates? Could they do it for braided brake lines? 5 point belts?
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 25 2005, 10:48 PM
the insurance agent we love to hate 
i hope hes right......
Posted by: Howard May 25 2005, 10:57 PM
Aaron, laugh all you want. Gonna need your help cause I don't know shit about plate tectonics. 
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 25 2005, 11:11 PM
| QUOTE (Howard @ May 25 2005, 09:57 PM) |
| Aaron, laugh all you want. Gonna need your help cause I don't know shit about plate tectonics. |
right now, im leaning toward running them. i can install them so the regular belts can be utilized also....
thanks for the info fellers
Posted by: jimtab May 25 2005, 11:11 PM
OK, I have been rolled over in a stock 914. My first '73 was 10 months old when an F350 stakebed p/u hit me on the passenger side just behind the door, he said 35 and the sjpd said 55. Punched the right side in and rolled me 1.5 times, ended up on the roof, targa bar intact, but deformed. No contact with my head except the driverside window which was up. No serious injuries, except for the asshole in the Ford who wasn't wearing a belt at all...punched out the windshield and broke his face on the wheel, ran a stop to do all this, fuck him. If I'd had a passenger there is an excellent chance they'd have been killed. His insurance bought me a new '74. I think the targa roll bar is pretty good, if it fails then a lot of other bad, bad shit has happened as well, and extraction from a cage by people not used to them is a nightmare for cops, fire and others "on the street", better hope if you have a crash on the street in your car with a cage that you get a paramedic that has seen how to thread a body out of a cage and racing seat... my .02.
Posted by: Cloudbuster May 25 2005, 11:22 PM
I usually do street driving without the roof. I expect the sloppy retractable 3 point belt that holds me too loosely to perform just as poorly as a 5 point harness that holds me too tightly.
I do know enough about plate tectonics to understand that my 60 year-old raised-floor house will probably roll over before my 914 does.
Posted by: JB 914 May 26 2005, 12:24 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ May 25 2005, 09:11 PM) |
| right now, im leaning toward running them. i can install them so the regular belts can be utilized also.... thanks for the info fellers |
Good. Practice on your car and then come help me install them on mine
Posted by: redshift May 26 2005, 01:05 AM
| QUOTE (hmeeder @ May 25 2005, 09:15 PM) |
| but then most 914s with any kind of harness will attract attention for many other reasons as well. |
That's right. Herb nailed it. The teener is a studmobile.
M
Posted by: Brando May 26 2005, 01:16 AM
| QUOTE (TimT @ May 25 2005, 04:23 PM) |
| Aaron does your car have a rollbar/cage? I WILL NOT use harnesses in a car that doesnt have roll over protection. The harnesses do keep you upright in the seat, but if there is nothing to prevent the roof from collapsing in a rollover situation, I dont use harness even if they are in the car (when I instruct) sometimes the students look at me wierd when I explain my logic... but hey |
In agreement with the statements above... the 914 came with a rollbar. Team with up with the 914's F/G top, which if it can withstand the 914 actually driving over it (ahem...
) should be able to withstand a moderate roll-over incident, on par or more intense than the subie video posted earlier...That was pretty funny though... The car rolls over and he just yells "FAWK!"... hehe. Poor car.
Posted by: grantsfo May 26 2005, 01:22 AM
I'm going to lose my street belts soon.
Posted by: Howard May 26 2005, 01:29 AM
All the insurance BS and jokes aside, I am way out of my area of expertise here, but IMHO it ain't the collsion with the tree that kills ya, it's the collision when your soft parts hit your car's hard parts. That's why airbags ar so effective. But don't you get the same benefit from 5 point belts? Airbags keep you upright too. All things being equal, you are better off staying in your car and not contacting the hard parts. Seriously, one of you engineering/physics types tell me this is wrong. I take my granddaughter in the car, cinch her up with the racing belts (very similar to the carseat she just outgrew) and we head to the beach. Is there a safer way to do it?
Posted by: Marv's3.6six May 26 2005, 05:05 AM
Aaron, I have had 5 points in my teener for years and for jus' driven around town I wear only the lap belt!
Posted by: 914Timo May 26 2005, 06:18 AM
Hmmmm.... I dont use mine on the street. I used to use them, but it is so difficult to tune radio or do something else. They also took too long to put tight. If you have thicker or lighter clothes you have to adjust them.
Well, I bought new retracteable seatbelts. Now I have in the drivers place both. In normal traffic I use the retracteable seatbelts and if I like to "race" I can run the 5-poits. 
Posted by: jimtab May 26 2005, 09:08 AM
| QUOTE (seanery @ May 25 2005, 06:03 PM) |
| I don't think I'd use them on the street. Do you guys remember http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=660&hl= Granted, this is a race car WITH a roll cage...but look at the damage it took even with the cage! |
It would be interesting to know at what speed this "accident" occured, most street accidents don't take place at racing speeds/
Posted by: MarkG May 26 2005, 11:09 AM
It's the third collision that kills you:
First collision is auto vs. another object.
Second collision is your body (traveling at same speed as your car) striking what ever it strikes (dash, steering wheel etc.)
Third collision is your brain (traveling at same speed as your body/car) crashing into your skull. This can be violent enough to rip part of the rear of the brain also (it 'floats' in a semi-thick fluid in your skull).
Prevent - or lessen - collision #2 and there is much less chance of collision #3 occurring.
I have seen an autopsy where a driver was wearing a 3 point inertia OEM seat belt when he struck a tree. Fatal at the scene, no obvious external injuries. Turns out the force of impact was sufficient that the lateral shoulder belt put force just right to rip his aorta out of his heart.
Posted by: ArtechnikA May 26 2005, 11:40 AM
legal? depends where you are, and what belts you have...
i'm glad CHP (and presumably SDPD) have decided not to press the matter, but that can't be depended upon universally...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1087277
as previously posted, there ARE DOT-certified harnesses available that probably also (i haven't looked lately...) carry SFI ratings. so if that issue is a concern for you, do that.
i've done both.
so here's a related question: how many of you relying on the factory belts are still relying on the integrity of the 30-year-old Nylon, and how many have had them re-webbed?
the ancedotal evidence in my area is that as long as you're secured, they're not too concerned about how. i expect a real hard-nose cop could write you up, especially if you've already failed the 'attitude test', and you'd have a hard time defending your position against the letter of the law...
Posted by: GTeener May 26 2005, 12:19 PM
| QUOTE (MarkG @ May 26 2005, 09:09 AM) |
| It's the third collision that kills you: First collision is auto vs. another object. Second collision is your body (traveling at same speed as your car) striking what ever it strikes (dash, steering wheel etc.) Third collision is your brain (traveling at same speed as your body/car) crashing into your skull. This can be violent enough to rip part of the rear of the brain also (it 'floats' in a semi-thick fluid in your skull). Prevent - or lessen - collision #2 and there is much less chance of collision #3 occurring. I have seen an autopsy where a driver was wearing a 3 point inertia OEM seat belt when he struck a tree. Fatal at the scene, no obvious external injuries. Turns out the force of impact was sufficient that the lateral shoulder belt put force just right to rip his aorta out of his heart. |
Excellent points. I've heard the pro racers are also using chest straps with their shoulder harnesses because in a high speed crash the central innards weren't being secured enough and with the forward inertia chest cavities/rib cages were breaking.
Posted by: Joe Ricard May 26 2005, 12:29 PM
| QUOTE (914Timo @ May 26 2005, 04:18 AM) |
| Hmmmm.... I dont use mine on the street. I used to use them, but it is so difficult to tune radio or do something else. They also took too long to put tight. If you have thicker or lighter clothes you have to adjust them. |
Radio.... You got a radio in your car? how novel. what a concept.
I was just pulled over at one of them random ID checks. Cop said cool car make sure you keep them belts on and told me to have a nice drive.
So much for Mississippi laws.
Posted by: mudfoot76 May 26 2005, 12:45 PM
PO removed the factory belts in my car, so I only have a harness. I always snug the belts down when I do have the chance to drive it on the street. The harness keeps me secured into my racing seat better than a 3 pt probably would anyways. I've heard numerous debates pro and con for wearing harnesses w/o a roll cage, or 3 pts with a roll cage, harness w/ roll cage and any other permutation.
I have many friends who work for EMS, and they have told me about extracting accident victims from all types of vehicles. The above post about wanting to avoid collision of body w/other interior bits of the car is very correct, and a primary driver behind seatbelts in the first place. If you aren't bouncing around inside the passenger compartment you are safer. If you roll over, there are many other bad things that have happened. Nobody has ever explained to me the reasoning behind the "danger" of wearing the harness to a point that is convincing to me. My friends in EMS say the harness is at least as good as the 3 pt because in the event of a low or medium speed roll over, you are better secured into your seat and less likely to bounce our of your seat and into the roof (high speed roll over w/catastrophic structure failure you are f'ed regardless). But yes, the harness needs to be adjusted properly at all times. If you look at a baby seat, most of those have 4 or 5 pt harnesses built in. A racing bucket seat appears awfully similar to a scaled up baby seat, though I am not a structural engineer...
I was once stopped at a seatbelt checkpoint in my 914. The police didn't have any objections to me wearing the harness, and didn't ask if the car had the factory installed belts. So as far as Indiana is concerned, law enforcement doesn't seem to care all that much what kind of seat belt one wears, just so long as you wear something....
Did the 356 have only lap belts? Does PCA (or other sanctioning body that runs HPDE) require lap belt only cars to be upgraded to at least 3 pt?
Posted by: Howard May 26 2005, 01:00 PM
Interesting stuff. Dan Gurney said he didn't wear any belts in the Eagle F1 car. So much magnesium that he felt the risk of fire was greater.. he wanted to be able to bail out in a hurry.
So every form of passenger restraint has some nasty side effects, but as was said, a lot of bad things have already happened when they are needed.
I like Geoff's comparison to the infant seat. I've gotta feel that a racing seat and 5 point belts are still the safest solution, street or track. OK, maybe 20 airbags but the car would weigh as much as your house. Hell, stay in your house, it's even safer
Posted by: ArtechnikA May 26 2005, 01:05 PM
| QUOTE (mudfoot76 @ May 26 2005, 02:45 PM) |
| Nobody has ever explained to me the reasoning behind the "danger" of wearing the harness to a point that is convincing to me. ... (high speed roll over w/catastrophic structure failure you are f'ed regardless) |
i'd be happy to go show you a picture my my 914 which had a medium-speed rollover. the top came off and was recovered some distance away. the windscreen hoop was flattened pretty well, down to about the middle of the B-Pillar. the top of the Targa bar was dented but not deformed and the rear glass was not broken (although obviously the windscrceen was - into a zillion bits.)
we had harnesses and Corbeau seats. (my ex- was driving...) the instructor was tall but /6's have non adjustable right seats anyway so his head was tucked up close to the Targa bar. my ex- had the driver's seat up pretty far but she's short. no injuries.
"the reasoning" is that if the roof gets flattened you have no place to go. yes, there will always be non-survivable crashes but the point is to keep your safety equipment from injuring you in the others.
| QUOTE |
| Did the 356 have only lap belts? Does PCA (or other sanctioning body that runs HPDE) require lap belt only cars to be upgraded to at least 3 pt? |
356's prior to 1962 don't even have those and properly fitting them is a bit of a structural challenge because even in jurisdictions that grandafther pre-62 cars, i choose not to drive with NO Protection... some sanctioning bodies -do- require retrofitting harnesses and again - it's a challenge to find a place to mount them properly. in the later cars, the factory shoulder belt mount is an M8 mounted in single-shear.
finding ways to properly mount updated harnesses in the early cars is a frequent topic on the 356Talk list, and one with few really satifying answers because those cars are quite literally from another time.
i'm installing a roll bar in my '71 011 Targa because although every sanctioning body i care to participate in agrees the Targa bar is satisfactory rollover protection for their purposes, there is essentially no way to properly mount shoulder harnesses without utilising a crossbar built into the rollover bar secured to the tub.
Posted by: jandro62 May 26 2005, 01:08 PM
Gurney's seat must have been very well molded then. When driving formula cars I have to have the belts tightened down sufficiently that I don't flop forward under the extreme braking (formula brakes can do well over 1.0 g).
Posted by: DougC May 26 2005, 01:35 PM
So is the general consensus that if your street car has a cage (mine has a simple 4 point inside the cabin) that you really ought to use a 4 or 5 point harness? No original belts, right?
Doug C
Posted by: anthony May 26 2005, 02:38 PM
Actually, I don't think there's much concensus here. It seems like a lot of people have just decided that belts are safer with or without a cage. The concensus AFAICT in the racer community is that you don't want to run belts without a roll bar or cage (you posted the reverse) to avoid neck compression (as rich explained).
Posted by: mudfoot76 May 26 2005, 02:40 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ May 26 2005, 02:05 PM) |
| "the reasoning" is that if the roof gets flattened you have no place to go. |
I'm not trying to be an assbag when I ask this, but how would your example have been different given a factory 3pt seat belt? Sunny side down is still sunny side down. With the harness, I expect they were held more securely into the Corbeau, while a 3pt might have allowed them to be thrown towards the roof by their own intertia during the roll.
With the three point (or four point), is the 'advantage' that you can "slide down" in the seat (towards the floor/pedals) if there is need?
Posted by: anthony May 26 2005, 02:46 PM
| QUOTE (mudfoot76 @ May 26 2005, 01:40 PM) | ||
I'm not trying to be an assbag when I ask this, but how would your example have been different given a factory 3pt seat belt? Sunny side down is still sunny side down. With the harness, I expect they were held more securely into the Corbeau, while a 3pt might have allowed them to be thrown towards the roof by their own intertia during the roll. With the three point (or four point), is the 'advantage' that you can "slide down" in the seat (towards the floor/pedals) if there is need? |
If the roof is flattened, with a 5 point, you have have no chance of escaping a neck compression injury. With a factory 3 point it would be possible to move your neck to either side.
As you said, a 5 point would keep you more securely strapped in and prevent you from flying all around the cabin. There are certainly compromises with every system.
Posted by: MarkG May 26 2005, 03:39 PM
Another incident we had involved two girls on their way to the beach in a MGB convertible. 3 point belts in place, flipped and skidded through intersection. Windshield pillar was compromised and both occupants were ground down to their torsos. But for the fact they were wearing bikinis, would not have been able to determine sex of occupants just by a quick look. NOT wearing seatbelts probably would have had the same fatalities, but from impact injuries striking the roadway rather than being smeared into the road.
Some accident are going to be catastrophic, no matter what.
I do have a question about the 3-point wearers being able to move their heads in a roll-over to avoid crushing/compression injuries....are we assuming this occurs naturally during the roll over event, or are we assuming that a person under this level of G-force will have the physical ability (and mental clarity) to be able to 'duck and cover'?
I'm just wondering if it's a false sense of security, or is it a bona fide argument that meets the laws of physics?
Posted by: ArtechnikA May 26 2005, 03:49 PM
| QUOTE (MarkG @ May 26 2005, 05:39 PM) |
| are we assuming that a person under this level of G-force will have the physical ability (and mental clarity) to be able to 'duck and cover'? |
although i wasn't in the 914 when it went over, i was in a Jetta GLI Coupe that went offroad and over at near-highway speed (was sideways quite a bit before that i'm sure scrubbed off a lot). factory 3-point inertia-reel belt in use. i frankly don't recall what i did at the time, but i believe it is reflexive for people to "duck" in the presence of danger.
in that car, the windscreen didn't break, but the rear window did (or popped out -- it was long gone...). the top was squished a bit in the middle but the pillars didn't buckle. i was able to open all 4 doors, although the driver's door was sticky in large part, i suppose, to the dent from its having snapped off a highway sign at ground level on its way offroad...
no injuries to me, the cat, nor the 3 middlesize dogs in the car at the time.
Posted by: Cloudbuster May 26 2005, 03:55 PM
I know of two fellers who rolled their pickup out in the desert. Stock seats, sealbelts. The rollover must have been slow, because the said they were just squirshed down over onto the bench seat, sideways.
I suppose the same thing could be said for use of racing seats instead of 4 & 5 point harnesses. They enforce an upright position too.
I'm in the damned if you do, damned if you don't camp.
If a car flips over, the roofs fails, and you get pushed 'down' under the seatbelt, or sideways, isn't it head/neck compression that is driving the body down or sideways?
Posted by: redshift May 26 2005, 04:36 PM
| QUOTE (Howard @ May 26 2005, 03:00 PM) |
| Interesting stuff. Dan Gurney said he didn't wear any belts in the Eagle F1 car. So much magnesium that he felt the risk of fire was greater.. he wanted to be able to bail out in a hurry. |
LOL! Funny, I hardly ever wear a belt either..
Look, it wrinkles my clothes, ok?
I wear a best when I think I am about to be pulled over, approaching a license check, or when I have decided that I am going to go twice the speed limit, through a neighborhood full of those blind kids playing signs.
M
Posted by: redshift May 26 2005, 04:38 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ May 26 2005, 05:49 PM) |
| the cat, nor the 3 middlesize dogs in the car at the time. |
You travel with a posse. Good thing they were wearing belts!
M
Posted by: hmeeder May 27 2005, 01:53 AM
Only one of 'em was a posse, t'others was dargs.
Posted by: carr914 May 27 2005, 09:22 AM
I wear my harnesses ( I have a cage). The one thing that has always made me wonder is in the event of a front end collision, the Sparco seat and harnesses would keep me in place and physics would take over, the weight of my head would keep going, snapping my neck. It's called Basil-Skull fracture I believe. It's what took out Earnhart. This is what the Hans Device cures in a racing environment, but is unavailable in a street collision.
T.C.
Posted by: airsix May 27 2005, 10:27 AM
| QUOTE (carr914 @ May 27 2005, 07:22 AM) |
| ...the weight of my head would keep going, snapping my neck. It's called Basil-Skull fracture I believe. It's what took out Earnhart. This is what the Hans Device cures in a racing environment, but is unavailable in a street collision. T.C. |
Much less energy at street speeds. Just make sure you don't get into a 200mph collision with an imovable object and you'll probably do okay.
-Ben M.
Posted by: jimtab May 27 2005, 11:19 AM
| QUOTE (carr914 @ May 27 2005, 07:22 AM) |
| I wear my harnesses ( I have a cage). The one thing that has always made me wonder is in the event of a front end collision, the Sparco seat and harnesses would keep me in place and physics would take over, the weight of my head would keep going, snapping my neck. It's called Basil-Skull fracture I believe. It's what took out Earnhart. This is what the Hans Device cures in a racing environment, but is unavailable in a street collision. T.C. |
In my opiinion what killed Dale Ernhart was the "culture" of NASCAR. The whole "rubbin is racin'" and general cowboy dipshit attitude is what kept the hans devices out of the cars for so long. I say if your dumb enough to drive 200mph without EVERY possible safety feature in place....well there you go.....
Posted by: ArtechnikA May 27 2005, 11:32 AM
| QUOTE (jimtab @ May 27 2005, 01:19 PM) | ||
In my opiinion what killed Dale Ernhart was the "culture" of NASCAR. ... I say if your dumb enough to drive 200mph without EVERY possible safety feature in place....well there you go... |
"basal" (the base of the skull...)
as much as anything, the open-face helmet was a contributing factor. the "chinguard" section of a full-face helmet acts as a travel-limiter (like a HANS, to a much lesser degree...) to keep your head from over-rotating forward.
and that is but one reason why i won't wear an open-face helmet.
full-face helmets are hot, which presents other hazards - which is why i use forced-ventilation helmets. i have a Bell, but G-Force has one that's reasonably priced -- it's what i bought for my wife, and when my Bell times out in 2006 it's probably what i'll get for myself.
there were several contributing factors in the Earnhart fatality and had they not all stacked up the result may well have been different.
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut May 27 2005, 04:18 PM
Here's my story:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1087277
In a nutshell: If the harness is FMVSS209 compliant then you're good.
My opinion on a harness in a non-caged vehicle: Shit, I ride a motorcycle, are you really gonna listen to me?
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut May 27 2005, 04:20 PM
Oh DUH Now I go back and click on the the link ArtechnikA posted and it's mine Just ignore me, I've been cooped up inside on this gorgeous Oregon day playing nanny to a 4 month-old girl 
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