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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Neo914 powerplant mates!!!!
Posted by: neo914-6 May 28 2005, 11:18 PM
I couldn't find a Gates hose supplier open today so my V8 project got stalled. I really need to get this car running before Neo914 arrives from WA.
I went ahead and dug out the Boxster tranny buried behind the 914 V8 and got my new jack installed in my engine lift to get the Audi block on a dolly. This enabled me to test mate them for the first time. I knew the patterns were close but I found the alignment pins matched perfectly and most of the other holes as well. The starter pocket matched too. This means no adapter, no modifying the bellhousing, or finding an alternative tranny. The Audi pins had a shoulder but the diameter matched so all I need to do is buy the pins from the Porsche parts dealer and buy the bolts from the Audi parts dealer 
Attached image(s)
Posted by: neo914-6 May 28 2005, 11:19 PM
Here's the B&M shifter
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Posted by: campbellcj May 28 2005, 11:29 PM
Holy crap, sorry to be late to the party but I didn't know somebody was working on a 2.7T Audi transplant!
Have you sorted out all the crazy exhaust and plumbing issues yet? I love this engine but it sure does not seem very "user serviceable" and the stock externals are iffy, at least with anything over stock boost.
Posted by: rick 918-S May 28 2005, 11:42 PM
Have you done a hieght measurement yet? The Audi pan looks very deep.... 
Really cool how that bolts up. Your on a roll! 
Posted by: Andyrew May 29 2005, 12:15 AM
Sick!!!!
Love the cable shift...
I will be very interested in this project.... Especially cost factor... 
Looks like fun, just sitting there.
Posted by: mike_the_man May 29 2005, 12:58 AM
That is very cool! I didn't realize this was being attempted either. Any ideas on what other motors a Boxster tranny might bolt up to?
Also, does it look like there be any easy way to make the Boxster cable shift work with a stock 914 tranny? I'm really interested in tha cable shift thing.
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 01:06 AM
Preliminary measurements indicate I may not even have to cut any engine compartment sheetmetal. Once I get the Neo914 roller I can position them to design and fab the engine and tranny mounts. The bare block will make it easier to position. Then I'll mount the fully dressed engine to figure out the exhaust and cooling. I may fit them in the Chalon car before the V8 goes in... 
The shift cables "should" be the easiest to route. All I have to do is position the shifter.
I envision the cooling to utilize twin boxster rads to maintain the front trunk space. If that isn't feasible I could always use a V8 or smaller rad (modern 6's don't need as much cooling as proven by Chris914N6)
I'll use the stock intercoolers and plan to mount them in the flare and fender space ahead of the John Kelly BA flares. A large intake at the formed rocker will feed them.
The exhaust is straight back after the turbos, I plan to incorporate a venturi tunnel design (unproven but at least an interesting detail).
There are alot more new ideas I will try on this car...
Posted by: aircooledboy May 29 2005, 08:36 AM
Daaaaamn Felix, 
Did you have a hunch that the engine & trans would mate directly, or is this just the auto gods smilimg down on you in unbelievable fashion.
Posted by: Mueller May 29 2005, 08:39 AM
that is great news there Felix...I was pretty sure at least one or two of the Audi engines would bolt up...now this is the 5 speed version correct?
Posted by: grantsfo May 29 2005, 09:09 AM
I'm interested in how much fabrication will be needed to get that Boxster tranny in the right place on the car? As you could also bolt a 3.4 from a 996 to that tranny as well.
There are a growing number of Boxster drivers who have done the 3.4 conversion quite successfully.
It would stand to reason that the new Audi 2.0T , 1.8T, non turbo 3.2 V6would also bolt on to the 5 spd boxster tranny since its shared with the A4.
Posted by: Eric Taylor May 29 2005, 11:22 AM
Felix - You should do some RS4 upgrades on the motor. Those cars were scary fast 
.
Eric
Posted by: redshift May 29 2005, 12:14 PM
I'd never put an Audi motor in a VW!
That is cool... I love the shifter.
M
Posted by: 914gem May 29 2005, 01:59 PM
How much HP can the boxter trans hold.
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 02:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| I love this engine but it sure does not seem very "user serviceable" and the stock externals are iffy, at least with anything over stock boost. |
Tell me your Audi sources, I need to find out the deficiencies of this engine. The front to back of the V6 is very short. When lining up the axles, I will still have over 5” of clearance in the front to the bulkhead. Like the V8’s, the servicibility should be pretty good. This ex-track car also has a bulkhead access panel. (My profession is tech support so I believe heavily in design for service)
| QUOTE |
| Did you have a hunch that the engine & trans would mate directly, or is this just the auto gods smilimg down on you in unbelievable fashion. |
It was a calculated risk, I posed the question on VWVortex and Audiworld with little response but found the 012 was similar. This cross-compatibility of parts may only be known by a few Audi-VW engineers.
| QUOTE |
| There are a growing number of Boxster drivers who have done the 3.4 conversion quite successfully. |
Did they do the 3.4 conversion with the 5-speed? I really wanted an “S” 6-speed but noticed too many differences on Jason’s tranny to match to the Audi engine. He has the full “S” drivetrain for his 914 and I would have followed this route but didn’t want to modify the engine bay and rear suspension. I never got to the point of creating a template to check bolt patterns when I noticed the starter pocket is on the top.
| QUOTE |
| Felix - You should do some RS4 upgrades on the motor. |
RS4 MAF is the only part I purchased so far, they are sold for a premium. Do you have any sources or specs, I have limited knowledge of the RS4? I’ve seen other RS4 parts but I need to focus my budget to new design and fab work first. I plan to solicit Audi tuners for upgrade sponsorship after the car is running.
| QUOTE |
| I will be very interested in this project.... Especially cost factor... |
You won’t believe how much this project has escalated but for a straight engine conversion, I’ll share my costs with you and how to avoid pitfalls. A conversion kit is not out of the question...
| QUOTE |
| I'd never put an Audi motor in a VW! |
I’m trying to draw only from the VW/Porsche/Audi parts bin to maintain the “modern 914” theme. Maybe I’ll design a four ring Stuttgart emblem with a prancing goat instead of a horse…
Posted by: redshift May 29 2005, 05:52 PM
LMAO Felix..
You could use pine cones instead of the oak leaves, or whatever the heck those are.
M
Posted by: MecGen May 29 2005, 07:43 PM
Hi Felix
I am doing something similar...
As was said before the engine swaps are...going to explode with possibilities.
5 speed PBoxter trannys are still pricey here, what are they going for out in your neck of the woods? I imagine you got yours thru a contact, but if you needed another? .
1500 - 2000$ easy, no shifter.
I think the aftermarket has really made this affordable to repair, I would like to know if this is true. Have you looked into it? Maybe pass me a link if you have?
I am looking into body kits..
You Rock
Later
Joe
Posted by: Eric Taylor May 29 2005, 07:50 PM
Felix, Yeah I've looked a little into the RS4 and from what I can see it's just a beast. The biggest difference is in the turbo's, intercoolers, and ecu I believe. Anyway if you wana spec out some euro only audi products check out:
http://www.euro-audi-parts.com/
They seem to have everything for the rs2, rs4, rs6 etc. that you could want. Just thoughts. I've been creaming for an s4/rs4 ever since I knew they existed and so this swap blows my mind it's so cool.
eric
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 07:51 PM
Joe,
Can't wait to hear about yours...
Last I checked Boxster 5's go for $1k to 1.5k w/o shifter. I haven't looked into service, I figure for that price rebuilding isn't feasible. Actually I know a German tech who has all the tools to rebuild them. The 6's go for $2.7k to 3.5k. Best deals are from eBay but have no warranty like the dismantlers...
B&M's go for $200 - 300.
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 08:03 PM
While I'm listing costs:
My bare engine cost $600 but had bent valves. It was from the East coast and sat so it had corrosion all over it. Delivery cost as much as the engine itself. My mechanic quoted $4500 in parts (discounted) and labor to rebuild. 30 sodium valve x $60 ea as an example of parts costs. The block will serve it's purpose and them I'll sell the parts or keep them as spares.
On the high end, local Audi/VW dismantler quoted $4500 for a complete running engine.
On the low end, (which I took) I found an Audi enthusiast on Craigslist who sold me a complete engine for $2500 plus a few hundred for the ECU.
There are so many trick parts for this engine... 
Posted by: ajracer May 29 2005, 09:36 PM
Felix:
Should be an interesting porject and at least it will all be "German"
I know you had commented in my Project 914-LT1 posting regarding
a BOXSTER tranny and V8 engine. Which is what I am currently completing
in my vehicle.
BTW in your picture of the tranny and V8 did you actually connect them together
or just do a mock / trial fitting to see if they were compatable. We you actually
also thinking of doing the Boxster and Chev V8 combo also ?
Anyway I have attached photo that confirms my setup and what I am currently
doing; hopefully it will be on the streets within a month or two. Keep in touch.
Allan
Attached image(s)
Posted by: ajracer May 29 2005, 09:39 PM
Photo # 2 Rear View
(The mounts have been fabricated and installated since this photo)
PS Even seems like enough room to add a Large muffler across the back !
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Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 09:47 PM
Allan,
The photos are a bolted Boxster 5 speed to an Audi V6. I'm working in parallel with my V8 914 and 901 tall geared tranny, pictured.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Brett W May 29 2005, 09:49 PM
The Boxster tranny is not that great. The way I understand it the early trannies were not dealer servicable. The dealer threw the bad one away and got a new one. Here are the torque ratings on the Boxster tranny.
http://www.en.getrag.de/180/180
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 09:52 PM
Allan,
BTW, have you addressed the axles? My 75 911 axles and CV's mated perfectly to an Audi 1.8t transaxle and were the correct length. They are too large, however for the boxster transaxle. I'm guessing the output flanges may be interchangeable.
Are you positioning the Boxster transaxle in line with the wheels or behind them for engine clearance as with all the V8 conversions?
Posted by: campbellcj May 29 2005, 10:12 PM
Some of the parts I've had to replace are the throttle-body boot ("TBB"), diverter valves, and one that IIRC is fondly called the Y-pipe (but is really a hose). Apparently the stock hoses and clamps are not up to added boost. Also I had a water pump and a temp sensor fail early.
Check out the B5 S4 forum at www.audiworld.com for lots of info on these issues.
I am still debating whether to hang onto this car and maybe mod it further, or sell it and get something else (an RS6 is one possibility) as it's over 60K miles and could start getting expensive real quick as stuff starts going out. The suspension is already feeling mushy.
Posted by: Andyrew May 29 2005, 10:15 PM
Felix.. what kind of headers are those?
I dont like how my car sounds (actually I do because I blew out my header gasket and now its loud 
) and I want to put something with more flow and bigger pipes.
Andrew
Posted by: Dman May 29 2005, 10:50 PM
Chris, if your front end is feeling loose you better take it in. There is a recall on the ball joints, while mine was in for that they also found the upper control arms were shot also. 60k miles on my car also.
This is a great thread! How heavy is the 2.7 compared to a flat 6?
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 10:57 PM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ May 29 2005, 08:15 PM) |
| Felix.. what kind of headers are those? Andrew |
Hooker Competition, ceramic coated...
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 10:59 PM
| QUOTE (campbellcj @ May 29 2005, 08:12 PM) |
| Some of the parts I've had to replace are the throttle-body boot ("TBB"), diverter valves, and one that IIRC is fondly called the Y-pipe (but is really a hose). Apparently the stock hoses and clamps are not up to added boost. Also I had a water pump and a temp sensor fail early. Check out the B5 S4 forum at www.audiworld.com for lots of info on these issues. I am still debating whether to hang onto this car and maybe mod it further, or sell it and get something else (an RS6 is one possibility) as it's over 60K miles and could start getting expensive real quick as stuff starts going out. The suspension is already feeling mushy. |
Chris,
I know about this weak part and would like the one-piece cast aluminum y-pipe...
It's toast after 60k?
Posted by: Dman May 29 2005, 11:06 PM
I think it is ~OK for a stock boost car but they say as soon as you chip this motor the Y pipe will
much more likely to go.
Posted by: Dman May 29 2005, 11:10 PM
Although the site is down tonight, another good site for info is biturbo.com.
Posted by: neo914-6 May 29 2005, 11:18 PM
| QUOTE (Dman @ May 29 2005, 09:10 PM) |
| Although the site is down tonight, another good site for info is biturbo.com. |
Duane,
Thanks, always looking...
Here are a few:
http://www.audizine.com/
http://www.dynospotracing.com/
http://www.awe-tuning.com/
http://www.giacusa.com/
http://www.streetwerke.com/
http://www.newdimensions.com/
Posted by: MecGen May 30 2005, 05:02 AM
Shit I am late for work...
Hey Neo, just curious...why not use the Audi trans?
Thats what I am leaning to, yours for sale ?
Later
Joe
Posted by: ajracer May 30 2005, 08:09 AM
Felix:
The Axle flanges on the tranny and my (911 axles) are the same size, which if I
remember is 100 mm. with 6 bolts 8mm. The actual axles I will be using are likel
going to be VW bus axles which I understand provide a broader range of movement
and are the correct flange size. The length will be handled with axles spacers similar
to the RH (already have a mock up adapter for machining purposes) which will
speed up the process.
The alignment of the tranny output flanges is slightly to the rear with of the axle
flanges, however I have also modified my Front engine bar (DH) and Fabricated my
new tranny mounts to both be adjustable ( +- 1.5") in order to allow for later
installation of a FI trigger wheel off harmonic balancer when
I start phase II of this project and conver everything to the Corvette fuel injection
with MegaSquirt !
In my case the engine clearance look really decent and should not be a problem.
(Attached photo shows the trial fitting of Right side only mount for tranny, which
by the way is a 5 speed unit.)
Talk again soon.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: grantsfo May 30 2005, 09:30 AM
| QUOTE (Neo914 @ May 29 2005, 12:00 PM) | ||
Did they do the 3.4 conversion with the 5-speed? I really wanted an “S” 6-speed but noticed too many differences on Jason’s tranny to match to the Audi engine. He has the full “S” drivetrain for his 914 and I would have followed this route but didn’t want to modify the engine bay and rear suspension. I never got to the point of creating a template to check bolt patterns when I noticed the starter pocket is on the top. |
Yep I followed a guys project using the 5 spd tranny. He converted an older 2.5 to 3.4. I just cant remeber if he did any level of fabrication to get it to mate to the 5 speed. I do remeber it went together pretty quickly. At one point he had a site but it isnt online anymore.
I'd still love to see somone convert a 914 with either the 986 S 3.2 or the 996 3.4.
Posted by: Mueller May 30 2005, 09:59 AM
| QUOTE |
| Hey Neo, just curious...why not use the Audi trans? |
Felix will be able to have a bolt-on solution for shifting, no real fabrication needed to get the shifter to work.....
The Audi tranny is more like a tailshifter/930 transmission, no bolt-on shift linkage
Posted by: Brett W May 30 2005, 10:11 AM
http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/Audi-shifter/Audi-Shifter.asp
For all fabricators out there.
Posted by: neo914-6 May 30 2005, 11:14 AM
| QUOTE |
| I'd still love to see somone convert a 914 with either the 986 S 3.2 |
Posted by: neo914-6 May 30 2005, 11:21 AM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ May 30 2005, 07:59 AM) | ||
Felix will be able to have a bolt-on solution for shifting, no real fabrication needed to get the shifter to work..... The Audi tranny is more like a tailshifter/930 transmission, no bolt-on shift linkage |
That is a less costly alternative and Sonu has most of the linkage designed to the Audi cable shifter (looks identical to the Porsche).
Like Mike said, I like that the Boxster tranny is already engineered for mid-engine...
Posted by: neo914-6 May 30 2005, 11:26 AM
| QUOTE (ajracer @ May 30 2005, 06:09 AM) |
| Felix: The Axle flanges on the tranny and my (911 axles) are the same size, which if I remember is 100 mm. with 6 bolts 8mm. |
That's odd, my axle flanges are smaller than the 911 CV's.
BTW, here's a tranny bracket from a guy who installed a Boxster 6 speed in his 914 (w/4cyl).
Attached image(s)
Posted by: MecGen May 30 2005, 04:38 PM
Thanx Guys
The last couple post saved me xxx hours of research.
I was looking at a 2001 Passat 1.8Turbo. axle to axle, with the 901 case, its shy .5inch, perfect for a spacerplate,
end the tail is almost the same with very close mounting.
The boxter looks longer. This was my concern, altho I had no doubts the P trans was better.
You guys rock 
Later
Joe
Posted by: type47fan May 30 2005, 04:48 PM
| QUOTE (Neo914 @ May 30 2005, 09:26 AM) |
| BTW, here's a tranny bracket from a guy who installed a Boxster 6 speed in his 914 (w/4cyl). |
Doesn't look like a 4 cylinder valve cover on that engine to me. . . .
Posted by: BIGKAT_83 May 30 2005, 05:45 PM
| QUOTE (type47fan @ May 30 2005, 05:48 PM) | ||
Doesn't look like a 4 cylinder valve cover on that engine to me. . . . |
Thats ABC914's car I think its a 3.6 liter 6cyl engine theres plenty of pictures of it in the members pictures. Just might be one of the best 914's going.
Bob
Posted by: neo914-6 May 30 2005, 05:52 PM
| QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ May 30 2005, 03:45 PM) | ||||
Thats ABC914's car I think its a 3.6 liter 6cyl engine theres plenty of pictures of it in the members pictures. Just might be one of the best 914's going. Bob |
yep checked my notes, that's abc914's (on PP) with a 3.2 Carrera engine. $5k for the tranny and $15k for installation! That is some car...
Posted by: Maltese Falcon May 30 2005, 08:20 PM
Felix, also good to know that B&M is an OE supplier to Porsche...for cable and hard linkage items.
Good progress on the Neo car
All of your Boxster transaxles are belonging to me NAH !
marty
Posted by: neo914-6 May 31 2005, 12:52 AM
Martin, ebrake ready?
Posted by: neo914-6 May 31 2005, 10:54 PM
I went to the Audi parts window and asked where the Porsche parts were and they said "here".
Strange thing they couldn't find the bolts for the Porsche bell housing so I asked about the Audi bolts. The parts guy looked at me funny and I said you don't want to know. He checked and they listed those but not in stock. They did list the Porsche alignment pins but they were like $9 ea. The VW equivalents went for $1.32 ea. Maybe the Porsche pins are titanium...
Posted by: type47fan Jun 1 2005, 12:06 AM
| QUOTE (Neo914 @ May 31 2005, 08:54 PM) |
| Maybe the Porsche pins are titanium... |
. . . or maybe passivated unobtainium!
Posted by: Brent Jun 1 2005, 12:49 AM
| QUOTE (type47fan @ May 31 2005, 11:06 PM) | ||
. . . or maybe passivated unobtainium! |
Isn't that what Oakley's are made from????
" Patented hydrophilic Unobtainium® earsocks ensure a snug, secure fit."
http://oakley.com/o/o2064d
Posted by: neo914-6 Jun 4 2005, 01:16 PM
| QUOTE (ajracer @ May 30 2005, 06:09 AM) |
| Felix: The Axle flanges on the tranny and my (911 axles) are the same size, which if I remember is 100 mm. with 6 bolts 8mm. The actual axles I will be using are likel going to be VW bus axles which I understand provide a broader range of movement and are the correct flange size. The length will be handled with axles spacers similar to the RH (already have a mock up adapter for machining purposes) which will speed up the process. (Attached photo shows the trial fitting of Right side only mount for tranny, which by the way is a 5 speed unit.) Talk again soon. |
Allan,
The 911 CV's are 108mm which are already on my car. I will have to convert to 914 or see if the Audi 108mm flanges can replace the 102mm Boxster 5 flanges...
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