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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ dyno run for 2366 with Web street cam and DLRA 45s
Posted by: 98101 Jan 9 2018, 04:45 PM
I bought this car a couple months ago, and wrestling with problems that I expected, and some I didn't expect.
Dyno shop got a noticeable performance improvement by reaming out the main jets. We played with the timing curve a little bit also. Unfortunately the clutch is contaminated or something and sometimes interfered with torque readings.
Now that I've read more about 2366 longevity, I'm not sure I'd opt for it. It sounds great and pulls harder than I'm used to in a 914 though.
Posted by: 914werke Jan 9 2018, 05:38 PM
This is from the Carb Connection in Totem Lake?
120hp /140tq seems low for 2.4L motor, what kind of exhaust is on it?
Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 9 2018, 05:44 PM
This is from the Carb Connection in Totem Lake?
120hp /140tq seems low for 2.4L motor, what kind of exhaust is on it?
He’d be in the 180 +- Range at the crank. My 2432 was in the 220 Range...
Posted by: 98101 Jan 9 2018, 05:47 PM
This is from the Carb Connection in Totem Lake?
120hp /140tq seems low for 2.4L motor, what kind of exhaust is on it?
Yes. I worked with Alex there. Seems like a good place. The reason I went in is kind of a long story.
The car came with big headers, I thought. So I'm living without a heater or defogger for nothing? I can find the actual dimensions when I get back home.
Posted by: MarkV Jan 9 2018, 06:23 PM
Once you get the clutch slip fixed I bet the #'s go way up.
Posted by: 914werke Jan 9 2018, 06:44 PM
Hmmm, I only ask as the only exp. Ive had with them was rebuilding my the carb on my daughters Festy ... HUGE BILL $$$. I almost walked but they worked with me discounting it.
So what are you concerns about Longevity?
Are you referring to Iron cyl's?
Posted by: 98101 Jan 9 2018, 07:01 PM
Hmmm, I only ask as the only exp. Ive had with them was rebuilding my the carb on my daughters Festy ... HUGE BILL $$$. I almost walked but they worked with me discounting it.
So what are you concerns about Longevity?
Are you referring to Iron cyl's?
Yes, it wasn't a cheap visit for me either: $400 for several runs and some tuning. They didn't charge me for noticing the VW shop had forgotten to screw down the main jet stack on one of my new DRLA 45s.
For what it's worth, here's what the previous owner used:
Posted by: pete000 Jan 9 2018, 07:05 PM
Gottal Love the 123 programmable distributor !
Posted by: 98101 Jan 9 2018, 07:12 PM
120hp /140tq seems low for 2.4L motor, what kind of exhaust is on it?
I believe this is the exhaust Tim used from "Paragon Products":
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jan 9 2018, 07:23 PM
Once you get the clutch slip fixed I bet the #'s go way up.
I agree. My 2.2 did 147 hp @ 5300 rpm. with 44idf's.
Posted by: 98101 Jan 9 2018, 07:32 PM
Once you get the clutch slip fixed I bet the #'s go way up.
In the previous owner's records I found a receipt for a clutch disk in February 2017. It seems to be adjusted properly. I don't think he drove it that much, so my theory is that the clutch is contaminated rather than worn out.
If the streets in Seattle ever dry out I guess I'll notice the slipping clutch more often.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jan 9 2018, 07:41 PM
Your clutch is slipping probably any time you are putting your foot down.
As a reference point, my 2056 dynoed at numbers greater then your 2366. You are WAY under potential power.
I agree with the others that your clutch is limiting you. Anyway you do it, you need to pull the transmission and clean or replace the clutch.
The longevity issue with the 2366 is heat. The head temps are pretty high and they don't last as long as other builds. You can mitigate it with $$$ pistons and cylinders and head work. But I'd not worry about it. Get it running properly and enjoy the power. You are going to have a very fast 914.
Zach
Posted by: somd914 Jan 9 2018, 08:20 PM
Concur with the others, take a look at the clutch, fortunately that's a relatively easy job with a helper.
For further reference, my 2258 running 44 IDFs dyno'ed at 155 HP at 5000 RPM, max torque 175 lb-ft at 3000 RPM, measured at the crank.
Posted by: MarkV Jan 9 2018, 08:28 PM
Get that clutch fixed. 
Posted by: Larmo63 Jan 9 2018, 11:35 PM
I wonder if the Cosmoline was ever cleaned off of the flywheel?
Posted by: 98101 Jan 9 2018, 11:44 PM
I wonder if the Cosmoline was ever cleaned off of the flywheel?
Tomorrow I'll be visiting a mechanic mentor who has a full shop (including a lift) but no 914 experience (though he had a Boxster in his shop last time I visited with my Miata). I first wanted to find out why it's leaking oil and transmission fluid but now I'm guessing we should inspect the clutch and flywheel as well.
Posted by: 98101 Jan 9 2018, 11:48 PM
The longevity issue with the 2366 is heat. The head temps are pretty high and they don't last as long as other builds. You can mitigate it with $$$ pistons and cylinders and head work. But I'd not worry about it. Get it running properly and enjoy the power. You are going to have a very fast 914.
I'm excited to hear that! I hope you're right. It already feels faster (and sounds better) than the single carb 2.0 I had in the 1980s.
Synchromesh is shot in every gear except 3rd. I'm hoping Dr. Evil makes a stop here sometime.
Regarding the head temps, the car does have a front oil cooler, CHT gauge, and oil temperature gauge. And it doesn't get as hot here as where the PO built it. And I'm more likely to track my cheap 91 Miata than this car. Maybe I'll be OK?
Posted by: 914_teener Jan 10 2018, 12:14 AM
Gottal Love the 123 programmable distributor !
The curve underneath the dyno looks right on the money.
Looks to be the least of the problem(s) with the car.
Posted by: North Coast Jim Jan 10 2018, 08:36 AM
The longevity issue with the 2366 is heat. The head temps are pretty high and they don't last as long as other builds. You can mitigate it with $$$ pistons and cylinders and head work. But I'd not worry about it. Get it running properly and enjoy the power. You are going to have a very fast 914.
I'm excited to hear that! I hope you're right. It already feels faster (and sounds better) than the single carb 2.0 I had in the 1980s.
Synchromesh is shot in every gear except 3rd. I'm hoping Dr. Evil makes a stop here sometime.
Regarding the head temps, the car does have a front oil cooler, CHT gauge, and oil temperature gauge. And it doesn't get as hot here as where the PO built it. And I'm more likely to track my cheap 91 Miata than this car. Maybe I'll be OK?
Send the tranny to Dr Evil. Use a Rubbermaid trash container and wrap the tranny in carpet. Send by truck. Don't forget to drain it beforehand. About $300 I'm told.
Posted by: Dr Evil Jan 10 2018, 01:51 PM
The longevity issue with the 2366 is heat. The head temps are pretty high and they don't last as long as other builds. You can mitigate it with $$$ pistons and cylinders and head work. But I'd not worry about it. Get it running properly and enjoy the power. You are going to have a very fast 914.
I'm excited to hear that! I hope you're right. It already feels faster (and sounds better) than the single carb 2.0 I had in the 1980s.
Synchromesh is shot in every gear except 3rd. I'm hoping Dr. Evil makes a stop here sometime.
Regarding the head temps, the car does have a front oil cooler, CHT gauge, and oil temperature gauge. And it doesn't get as hot here as where the PO built it. And I'm more likely to track my cheap 91 Miata than this car. Maybe I'll be OK?
Send the tranny to Dr Evil. Use a Rubbermaid trash container and wrap the tranny in carpet. Send by truck. Don't forget to drain it beforehand. About $300 I'm told.
Always nice to be called out for good things
Feel free to ship to me, shipping is about $100 each way. I can fill you or anyone in on the details if ya PM me. As for PNW clinic, no set date, but later next year at earliest. I have to move houses, accrue time off, build garage, spruce up and sell other house, take over world, the usual. I plan to suspend building after I finish the ones I have on the bench (now that I have parts), so I may be a minute until I can get to yours if you wait. Always happy to answer questions.
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 10 2018, 06:04 PM
Fix clutch. We want to see what that beast can do. While trans is out for clutch work, get it to Dr. Evil. He did my trans and the 914 has never shifted better. Be patient. He's worth the wait. I found a super heavy duty camo box at menards that was perfect for shipping. With that motor heat can be a thing. Watch the temps, change oil often, be sure the thermostat and flaps are working correctly, and that ALL engine tin is in place.
Then turn it loose!
Posted by: jim_hoyland Jan 10 2018, 07:45 PM
The doctor is in the House. Dr Evil is the best !
Posted by: 98101 Jan 10 2018, 09:29 PM
I appreciate all the support here!
Mechanic road tested my car and didn't get the clutch to slip. The clutch slipping problem seems to happen less often than a couple months ago when the car first came here. What could cause that?
The engine seems to run nicely with the new Dellortos ... no idea why it's underperforming on the dyno. Here's the exhaust system. We're having a hard time figuring out exactly where the leaks are coming from. Someone else said he also smells transmission oil burning on the exhaust (it smells different?). The transmission fluid level was slightly lower than the opening when we checked it today.
Posted by: Krieger Jan 10 2018, 09:39 PM
If it is tranny fluid It looks like it coming from the front seal in the bell housing or the clutch pivot point. Either way you need to pull the transmission to fix.
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Jan 10 2018, 09:40 PM
First thing to do is figure out the leaks.
Posted by: MarkV Jan 10 2018, 09:47 PM
Looks wet.... gear oil has a distinct smell kind of like sulfur. Looks to me like either the
input seal on the transmission is leaking or the rear main seal on the engine.
Stick your finger in one of those drips hanging off the transmission and smell it...yuck. Easy to tell if its gear oil.
Posted by: 98101 Jan 11 2018, 02:34 AM
Looks wet.... gear oil has a distinct smell kind of like sulfur. Looks to me like either the
input seal on the transmission is leaking or the rear main seal on the engine.
Stick your finger in one of those drips hanging off the transmission and smell it...yuck. Easy to tell if its gear oil.
OK, will try that next time.
Could a transmission or engine oil leak cause the clutch to be contaminated?
The weird thing with the clutch is that the slipping was noticeable when I first got the car a couple months ago, and now it's not noticeable except for one slip on the dyno stand. What ever was on the clutch got burned off? It fixed itself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B61_5sRoBI
Gear oil level in the transmission was slightly low, not a lot.
At least most of the stuff is engine oil. I'm wondering how to track it down. Since the tranny needs rebuilding anyway, I guess we'd find out more then.
Posted by: lonewolfe Jan 11 2018, 03:30 AM
Concur with the others, take a look at the clutch, fortunately that's a relatively easy job with a helper.
For further reference, my 2258 running 44 IDFs dyno'ed at 155 HP at 5000 RPM, max torque 175 lb-ft at 3000 RPM, measured at the crank.
What cam and compression are you running?
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 11 2018, 07:28 AM
Rear main, trans out put, or ball pivot could all provide lube that could contaminate the clutch. Drop trans and check them all. Self healing clutch? I guess anything is possible. My experience has been once they start slipping they are done, but that has been on well used parts. You'll learn more about the condition of the clutch and flywheel once the trans is out.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jan 11 2018, 08:41 AM
Trans out.
Flywheel off.
Show us your rear main seal. I bet its oily.
And this will contaminate your clutch and allow slippage.
Also looks like your pushrod tubes may be leaking.
Zach
Posted by: 98101 Jan 11 2018, 10:42 AM
You guys are probably right that the rear main seal is leaking. I'm just wondering why it would develop a leak so quickly, since the PO built the engine a year ago.
Posted by: Dr Evil Jan 11 2018, 10:53 AM
You guys are probably right that the rear main seal is leaking. I'm just wondering why it would develop a leak so quickly, since the PO built the engine a year ago.
But not the tranz. The tranz seal may be rael old and sat for how long? Still need to verify source, and trans has to come off anyway for that. Trans oil smells much worse than engine oil. You can compare stink to what you find on the dip stick
Posted by: MarkV Jan 11 2018, 11:30 AM
Isn't there a known problem with Erling rear main seals that always leak?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=112374&st=20
Posted by: Mueller Jan 11 2018, 12:27 PM
I've used the UV leak detector kits with success before.
Not sure if I'd do engine or transmission 1st...just don't do them at the same time!
https://www.amazon.com/Mastercool-53351-B-Professional-Detector-Light/dp/B000IHJXHG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1515695097&sr=8-6&keywords=uv+dye+kit
Posted by: 914werke Jan 11 2018, 01:15 PM
Dyno pulls can put some serious stress's on a motor.
If there are weak points in the build it can expose them.
CAM walk, Weak seals, cooling issues, ect.
Posted by: 98101 Jan 11 2018, 09:00 PM
I tried to smell the stuff today and it just smelled like oil. But it's possible I don't have a discerning pallet since I'm the guy who thought Coke and Pepsi were the same drink until there was a big fuss about New Coke.
Since the transaxle needs rebuilding anyway, I guess we'll learn more about the leaks and clutch then.
Could not induce any noticeable clutch slip today. Engine idles great, and drivability problems vanished when I replaced the DRLA 45s (which still have 35 or 36 venturis I think). Air fuel mixture was correct on the dyno.
If it's not a clutch problem, what's the next most likely cause of the power less than other big fours?
Posted by: 98101 Jan 11 2018, 09:02 PM
Concur with the others, take a look at the clutch, fortunately that's a relatively easy job with a helper.
For further reference, my 2258 running 44 IDFs dyno'ed at 155 HP at 5000 RPM, max torque 175 lb-ft at 3000 RPM, measured at the crank.
What cam and compression are you running?
Also curious about the venturi sizes of engines that do this. Oh, and what RPM was peak horsepower?
Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 12 2018, 07:35 AM
...
If it's not a clutch problem, what's the next most likely cause of the power less than other big fours?
Camshaft and exhaust.
FC442 is a conservative camshaft for a 2366.
A 1 5/8" header is too small for a 2366.
European Racing Headers have long primaries, better for low end torque instead of top end.
BTW, 37 degree full advance is probably way too aggressive and may result in pre-ignition/high head temps.
Posted by: Dominic Jan 12 2018, 09:32 AM
I noticed you have an additional oil cooler, if you remove these copper pieces that are blocking the air from exiting the fan shroud, your stock oil cooler will work properly. Trust me I've made this mistake before. That air has to escape out the bottom of the shroud (heater ports) for the cooling system to work properly.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: 98101 Jan 12 2018, 10:52 AM
Camshaft and exhaust.
FC442 is a conservative camshaft for a 2366.
A 1 5/8" header is too small for a 2366.
European Racing Headers have long primaries, better for low end torque instead of top end.
OK. That makes sense. Is there any point in changing one and not the other? I'm thinking of living with the current performance until the next engine build.
BTW, 37 degree full advance is probably way too aggressive and may result in pre-ignition/high head temps.
I will back it off. I've always seen cylinder head temperature readings well below 350ºF, but it's winter here and I haven't pushed it very hard for very long.
Thank you for the expert help.
Posted by: 98101 Jan 12 2018, 10:57 AM
I noticed you have an additional oil cooler, if you remove these copper pieces that are blocking the air from exiting the fan shroud, your stock oil cooler will work properly. Trust me I've made this mistake before. That air has to escape out the bottom of the shroud (heater ports) for the cooling system to work properly.
Yes, the car came from the San Jose CA area with a front oil cooler and those sealed shroud ducts. Maybe PO wouldn't have needed to add the oil cooler if he'd left those ducts open?
For two months here in Seattle the problem has been getting oil temperature up though. I've got that white milky condensation under the oil filler cap.
The air thermostat appears to reflect the correct cold position. I haven't found a way to test that the air flaps are actually closed with the tin on.
Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 12 2018, 11:29 AM
Maybe PO wouldn't have needed to add the oil cooler if he'd left those ducts open?
You absolutely need the external cooler with that displacement.
In fact, the stock cooler is almost no help compared to a front mounted cooler.
Another thing to consider - sandwich plates for external cooler take-off may create a separate issue related to cooling: Backpressure from the external cooler may cause all the oil to bypass the filter and the cooler. That's because of the bypass valve in the filter bracket which opens at a fairly low pressure differential.
Posted by: 98101 Jan 12 2018, 11:38 AM
Maybe PO wouldn't have needed to add the oil cooler if he'd left those ducts open?
You absolutely need the external cooler with that displacement.
In fact, the stock cooler is almost no help compared to a front mounted cooler.
Another thing to consider - sandwich plates for external cooler take-off may create a separate issue related to cooling: Backpressure from the external cooler may cause all the oil to bypass the filter and the cooler. That's because of the bypass valve in the filter bracket which opens at a fairly low pressure differential.
Uh oh — would this also keep the filter from working?
What’s a better way to set it up?
In two months of ownership in the winter here, oil temperature slowly creeps up to 80ºC, then doesn’t budge above that. I have assumed there is an oil thermostat at work, as one was supposed to come with the Patrick Motorsports kit a previous owner bought.
Posted by: Mblizzard Apr 27 2018, 01:59 PM
Maybe PO wouldn't have needed to add the oil cooler if he'd left those ducts open?
You absolutely need the external cooler with that displacement.
In fact, the stock cooler is almost no help compared to a front mounted cooler.
Another thing to consider - sandwich plates for external cooler take-off may create a separate issue related to cooling: Backpressure from the external cooler may cause all the oil to bypass the filter and the cooler. That's because of the bypass valve in the filter bracket which opens at a fairly low pressure differential.
I am running your Tangerine Racing Oil Pressure Relief Valve does that help?
Posted by: worn Apr 27 2018, 02:51 PM
I noticed you have an additional oil cooler, if you remove these copper pieces that are blocking the air from exiting the fan shroud, your stock oil cooler will work properly. Trust me I've made this mistake before. That air has to escape out the bottom of the shroud (heater ports) for the cooling system to work properly.
Have to disagree. That is where fan outputs to the heat exchangers. It splits output between the HEs and the larger job of engine cooling. If you pull those caps the pressure will fall in the plenum feeding heads and cylinders. The heads will
be the biggest cooling concern at this point.
Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 27 2018, 02:59 PM
Odd that it says it's a standard base circle cam, shouldn't clear one lobe with an 80mm crank.
Chris is right that's a conservative grind for the engine size.
Posted by: gothspeed Apr 27 2018, 03:27 PM
I noticed you have an additional oil cooler, if you remove these copper pieces that are blocking the air from exiting the fan shroud, your stock oil cooler will work properly. Trust me I've made this mistake before. That air has to escape out the bottom of the shroud (heater ports) for the cooling system to work properly.
Have to disagree. That is where fan outputs to the heat exchangers. It splits output between the HEs and the larger job of engine cooling. If you pull those caps the pressure will fall in the plenum feeding heads and cylinders. The heads will
be the biggest cooling concern at this point.
with wornConcur with the others, take a look at the clutch, fortunately that's a relatively easy job with a helper.
For further reference, my 2258 running 44 IDFs dyno'ed at 155 HP at 5000 RPM, max torque 175 lb-ft at 3000 RPM, measured at the crank.
What cam and compression are you running?
http://www.webcamshafts.com/mobile/automobile/volkswagen/volkswagen_type_4_8v.html
Web 494:
.465/.465 IN/EX lift in inches
.280°/280° IN/EX duration in °
what size valves are in the heads?
Posted by: 98101 Apr 27 2018, 03:46 PM
looks like a web cam 494 here:
http://www.webcamshafts.com/mobile/automobile/volkswagen/volkswagen_type_4_8v.html
Web 494:
.465/.465 IN/EX lift in inches
.280°/280° IN/EX duration in °
what size valves are in the heads?
Previous owner says stock valves.
(This is an old thread, but I guess it came back to life because I referenced it while asking about the downsides of ss heat exchangers for this engine.)
Posted by: gothspeed Apr 27 2018, 03:50 PM
looks like a web cam 494 here:
http://www.webcamshafts.com/mobile/automobile/volkswagen/volkswagen_type_4_8v.html
Web 494:
.465/.465 IN/EX lift in inches
.280°/280° IN/EX duration in °
what size valves are in the heads?
Previous owner says stock valves.
(This is an old thread, but I guess it came back to life because I referenced it while asking about the downsides of ss heat exchangers for this engine.)
Thank you for the note. Stock 2.0 valves are a tad small IMO. Even for a 2056. Good to know the configuration
Posted by: 98101 Apr 27 2018, 06:25 PM
Odd that it says it's a standard base circle cam, shouldn't clear one lobe with an 80mm crank.
Chris is right that's a conservative grind for the engine size.
No idea why PO went to all that trouble just to use that cam. FWIW, he wasn’t very active on this forum.
I’m not feeling ready to split the case on a motor that was just built last year. Is there any point in bigger exhaust (background: currently has 1 5/8” European Racing Headers)?
Secondary consideration: Tangerine’s exhaust appeals to me because I’ve realized I’m old enough to appreciate a working heater and defogger.
Posted by: porschetub Apr 28 2018, 12:41 AM
Odd that it says it's a standard base circle cam, shouldn't clear one lobe with an 80mm crank.
Chris is right that's a conservative grind for the engine size.
No idea why PO went to all that trouble just to use that cam. FWIW, he wasn’t very active on this forum.
I’m not feeling ready to split the case on a motor that was just built last year. Is there any point in bigger exhaust (background: currently has 1 5/8” European Racing Headers)?
Secondary consideration: Tangerine’s exhaust appeals to me because I’ve realized I’m old enough to appreciate a working heater and defogger.
I don't really think a slipping clutch would even be a good start to a dyno test and surprised the guy even proceeded with a test,sorry but prefer to be honest,your cam as stated as mild,with stock valves that most likely isn't a bad thing,still really lost to why you are running 45's but I don't know your vent size,its important to remember you aren't after max HP @ the higher RPM range because you rarely drive there except the freeway,you really need a good power curve from 2500 to 5000.
Considering a good 2.0L stock motor can make 95bhp something is not right with your motor for that displacement.....should be lots more as suggested.
Tuning any aircooled engine to max power on a dyno is a recipe for destruction if timing isn't keep sensible many tuners don't know that.
Good luck.
Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 28 2018, 06:32 AM
The valve size and header size isn't a huge issue we're only talking .078" (2mm) smaller (your 42X36mm vs my 44x38mm) than what's in my 180hp 2600cc (78x102 w/9.5:1CR) and I also run a 1-5/8" header.
The main two things will be the cam and CR. My guess is the CR is also set way low.
I run a WEB cam 163/86b, .507/.497 lift 288*/298* duration.
With this cam you have to run between 9.0 and 9.5 CR, plus dual springs, CrMo retainers, keepers, pushrods and all the other valve train goodies. WEB says this is a race cam but to me it's a well rounded hot street cam for large displacement engines. Good, slight lumpy idle, gobbs of torque, for your engine spec it would be the one I recommend.
Timing I run 28* total, anything over 30* is too much, I bet you're pinging even if you can't hear it. At 36* your engine will have a short life.
On the clutch you definetly have a oil contamination issue, the stock clutch can handle 180 bhp, I cut my flywheel 2nd step an extra .010 for slightly more holding power.
I'm right on the clutch limit with my engine Hp and once last fall was the first time I felt any slip, after 5 years of hard launches.
BTW For some reason I thought you said a 80 stroke, but looking back I see it's 71X103mm so the standard base circle on the cam is fine.
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