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Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 11:25 AM

Good morning, can we pretend for a minute that I was going to do a 914/6 build with a 1974 that is already missing its engine. Further, can we imagine that I would be trying to build a car that would be used rather than showed, and that building a clone and/or a "correct" car is not a goal. The goal would be a well balanced, reliable and sorted out car for backroad touring use.

Does this look like the necessary bits?

-2.7 or 3.0l engine with CIS (have this)
-engine tin
-oil tank
-front oil cooler
-to/from oil cooler lines
-throttle linkage
-fuel pump
-fuel lines
-engine lid latch relocation bits (due to CIS)
-headers
-flywheel
-ECU
-CDI box
-O2 sensor
-Engine mount
-320i front brakes since the extra horsepower probably deserves it

Edit - adding these from Cario and Defianty

muffler
thermostat for the oil cooler
gauges to work with new engine
Filler neck for the oil tank
Oil dipstick
Oil filter console
Six muffler
19mm master cylinder
FI harness (missed that one)

Edit - adding from Lucky9146

Conversion Wiring harness?
914-6 trans mid-plate for throttle or some other contraption, not sure w/FI
Shift Rod modified for headers
Oil cooler thermostat
Oil cooler shroud
Oil Cooler Fans
Oil Fed chain tensioners

Edit - adding from mb911

headers or heat exchangers

Am I missing anything? I did try searching and reading prior discussions.

Thanks!

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 11 2018, 11:31 AM

That's a pretty good start. You might want to consider some light chassis stiffening or reenforcement, 5 lug conversion, upgraded suspension, muffler, thermostat for the oil cooler, gauges to work with new engine, etc. Should be a fun build and car. Of course, as you have seen in my build, rust is the enemy of these cars. Make it structurally sound and build from there.

Posted by: defianty Jan 11 2018, 11:36 AM

Yep that's a good list to start, here's a few extra bits you'll need.

Filler neck for the oil tank
Oil dipstick
Oil filter console
Six muffler
19mm master cylinder

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 11:48 AM

Thanks gentlemen.

@Cario, thanks for pointing out the body stiffening. I didn't list that since I had already decided to do it, it has become a SOP on all the builds. I just finished doing that on my 912 project actually. Thanks for that and the other bits.

@defianty, thanks for the response as well and those other bits I missed.

The plan would be to take my time, do what Cario confirmed related to shell stiffening and assemble all of the bits. I have other things to keep me busy so I have the "luxury" of not having to rush.

Make sense? Lots of coaching and experiences in past threads that have been a huge help.

Posted by: tomeric914 Jan 11 2018, 11:51 AM

Take a look at my build thread for some ideas. Mine is a '74 with a 3.0 but not CIS.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 11:51 AM

Will do, thanks.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 11 2018, 12:17 PM

Horsepower has nothing to do with needing bigger brakes. More effective brakes are needed when mass or velocity or both are increased.

Posted by: Lucky9146 Jan 11 2018, 12:19 PM

Yes good start.

Probably need:
Conversion Wiring harness?
914-6 trans mid-plate for throttle or some other contraption, not sure w/FI
Shift Rod modified for headers
Oil cooler thermostadt
Oil cooler shroud
Oil Cooler Fans
Oil Fed chain tensioners, if not already there
And all the little stuff you find you need along the way.


Several of us on here have done conversions so help is available check out my thread but it is not FI http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=261197
Best of luck and keep us posted on progress, even small stuff.
It's a journey

Posted by: burton73 Jan 11 2018, 03:18 PM

Do you have the car yet?

I seem to remember you getting out of a car before you got into it but lost a deposit?
I am old and may have that wrong.

I am in Los Angeles So cal. where are you.

Good list of stuff for a conversation.

Bob B

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 03:53 PM

Well, the increased horsepower will likely increase my velocity.

Grin.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 03:59 PM

Hi Bob, you are remembering correctly.

I actually bought a good car from a great seller early this week. It is a ‘74 with a solid body, engine gone already, and driver + paint.

Came with a running 2.7L CIS, and I have since tracked down a 3.0L CIS that is ready to go in after a service.

Given that the car needs an engine anyway, figured now is the time to dig deep and put one of those engines in. Just focusing on the end goal and not getting an interim 4 cylinder in place only to remove it seems ultimately to be a better approach for my specific goals (to be extra clear I am not dogging original engine cars in anyway).

I am in Orange County btw...

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 04:02 PM

Thanks, will add those to my list.

I am planning on starting to acquire the conversion bits while I finish the 912 and sell a couple cars to help fund this.

Not going to rush the build, been there,regretted that.

I have been reading past conversion threads and making notes, it’s been a big help.

Thanks!

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 04:03 PM

Here she is...

Posted by: mb911 Jan 11 2018, 04:21 PM

Great list also 6 headers or heatexchangers will be needed..

Posted by: barefoot Jan 11 2018, 04:48 PM

If you're sticking with the CIS and want O2 sensor, you'll need 1980 or newer CIS controls.
That was the first year that used an O2 sensor to feedback mixture control

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 05:17 PM

Thanks.

Wondering about skipping the heat exchangers since I live in SoCal....

Any been there / skipped those thoughts?

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 05:19 PM

Ah, my systems pre-date that so I can drop that from the list unless it is a worthwhile upgrade.

Do the later CIS systems with the O2 sensor work a meaningful amount better?

Thanks!

Posted by: burton73 Jan 11 2018, 05:25 PM

You are on your way. Great guys that will help you out if you need and give great advice more than any other Porsche site I have found.

2.7 S is nice but the 3.0 are a super choice for engine, just stronger with better elements. I went with a later 3.0 and put 3.2 hears with the bigger vales different cams and 46PMOs

I had a 74 ( factory Black car) with a 3.0 CIS conversation back in early 80 when not that many people knew what to do. Stock body with Mahle Gas Burner Sports Wheels for Porsche 911 914- Now $4900.


Blue is a great color. Are you going to keep it a stock body?

Bob B

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 05:30 PM

Hi Bob. Everyone here as been super helpful, I feel very fortunate to have found you all.

Leaning towards 3.0l as well...

Did you like the CIS? I know most like the sound / looks of the PMO carbs but I don't think I really want to spend the money those at this point when I have a happy CIS system. The car will see altitude changes as well.

I am currently planning on keeping t a stock narrow body car.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 11 2018, 06:18 PM

CIS, in Good working condition, makes for a nice driver. It’s not so good if you want to hot rod the engine.
If you have access to a 3.0, it’s a great engine. Just about bulitproof. The single turbo 962 at our shop uses a 3.0 block for the base of the engine. It was dyno’d at 780hp.

Posted by: mb911 Jan 11 2018, 06:19 PM

How about patience and overage money and more patience..

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 06:48 PM

Drivability is more important to me then the last bit of possible power, she'll be more than adequately powered with a 3 L anyway.

Thanks for the input.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 11 2018, 06:49 PM

Shouldn't there be at least one more "...and more money" in there?

Posted by: burton73 Jan 11 2018, 10:31 PM

From a song by George Harrison;

But it's gonna take money,
A whole lot of spending money,
It's goanna take plenty of money,
To do it right child

It's goanna take time,
A whole lot of precious time,
It's goanna take patience and time, um
To do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it
To do it right child.

Or this song is three words long.

Bob B

Posted by: Larmo63 Jan 12 2018, 12:13 AM

Money, and patience.

I almost gave up on my conversion because I became frustrated. The chorus here kept me on the straight & narrow. There are some really good people here. Really.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 12 2018, 08:40 AM

What was the hardest part?

Posted by: mepstein Jan 12 2018, 08:48 AM

It will cost more than you plan - money
It will take longer than you think - patience

Totally worth it in the end.




I think Doug nailed it when he said - 90% done, 90% to go.

Posted by: GeorgeRud Jan 12 2018, 09:02 AM

Though you have warm weather in California, you still might want to consider heat exchangers to provide defrosting. Now that they’re once again available (either OEM or mb911’s beautiful stainless ones), you may want to check costs for headers vs. exchangers.

Also, Auto Atlanta produced a nice little booklet on the conversion with wiring harness charts and oil tank cut-out templates.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 12 2018, 09:04 AM

I'd vote 3.0 as well, it's what I have, but if I had a running 2.7 that's what I'd use... at least for now.
I'd get the 2.7 running and document it because a running engine will get a better sale price. While I was doing this I would search for the engine I really wanted, like a 3.0 thru 3.6.

The 3.0 is a great engine, but CIS while OK enough for a stock engine is a bit sucky. The 3.2 is the gold standard for a factory FI engine conversion.
My 3.0 has cams, etc and runs weber carbs.

You said you had a flywheel, do you have the clutch?
You need a adapter plate/ring, pressure plate and disc, most use the KEP kit.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 12 2018, 01:55 PM

Thanks Mark, good catch and will add those.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 12 2018, 06:05 PM

You also need a 914 oil cooler or a 911 cooler modified to 914 spec. I would recommend you keep the factory cooler and since you're in a hot area the front cooler.

Ben's (mb911) oil tank is about the best deal going, I believe he can set you up with just about everything needed in that area. Ben is also reproducing the front cooler lines.

The adaptor clutch from KEP I mentioned will work on both the 2.7 and 3.0/3.2, just the flywheels are different.

The BMW brakes are old school, it's debatable if it gives much more stopping power.
Most do the 5 lug porsche conversion, I did the 3" struts with Alfa brembos which are the same as 914/early 911 M calipers but in alunimum.
You would need 5 bolt rims, but those 4 bolt fuchs you have are in demand to offset cost.

Really take your time and look at other peoples conversion threads before you plop down cash. The /6 conversions are getting spendy and you don't want to be buying wrong bits.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 12 2018, 10:01 PM

Thanks Mark

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 12 2018, 10:14 PM

OK - to try and get myself organized and start hunting for parts at best possible prices (while supporting members here when/where possible) I have taken the list you helped me prepare and started listing the parts source next to the item needed.

Needed item | Sourcing

-engine tin | Fiberglass OK to use?
-oil tank | going with Ben's
-front oil cooler | any recommendations?
-to/from oil cooler lines | going with Ben'sn
-throttle linkage | any recommendations?
-fuel pump | 3.0 911 pump OK I assume?
-fuel lines | custom, or is there a kit?
-engine lid latch relocation bits (due to CIS) | home fabricate?
-flywheel | lighten the 3.0 one or leave as is?
-CDI box | got it covered
-O2 sensor | not needed
-Engine mount | firewall mount best?
-muffler | got it
-thermostat for the oil cooler | got it
-gauges to work with new engine | 3.0 911 tachometer ordered, what other gauges
-Filler neck for the oil tank | Ben?
-Oil dipstick | Ben?
-Oil filter console | Ben?
-19mm master cylinder| | got it covered
-FI harness | Perry Kiehl
-Conversion Wiring harness? | any ideas?
-914-6 trans mid-plate for throttle or some other contraption, not sure w/FI | any ideas?
-Shift Rod modified for headers | Tangerine
-Oil Cooler Fans | got it covered
-Oil Fed chain tensioners | got it covered
-headers or heat exchangers | got it covered

Any input?

Posted by: Blue6 Jan 12 2018, 10:42 PM

If you skip the heat exchangers, just add seat heaters before upholstery.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 12 2018, 10:54 PM

Good idea.

Posted by: raynekat Jan 12 2018, 11:51 PM

Perry Kiehl (on this website) will build you a killer engine wiring harness for your 914-6 conversion.

Fiberglass engine tin will be fragile. A better but more expensive option is Restoration Design's better than factory engine sheet metal for $900.

Best to use the 911 type of gauges that would have come with your 3 liter engine.

Posted by: porschetub Jan 13 2018, 12:23 AM

In some order;
GRP engine tins are ok and a cheap solution but not as strong ,fit can be questionable,PM Forrest he made a set of clever ones,
oil cooler Setrab,RX7 or similar, ,Bruce Stone had some Merc ones a while back,
fuel lines are Tangerine racing or custom build yourself from truck brakeline tube,
flywheel ...leave that stock,
engine mount..so many out there but thats your call,Maddog,PMS and one member on here makes them...maybe talk to Ben on that.,
gauges mid year 70's 911 ok and mount a separate vdo 52mm fuel gauge in the lower dash,cheaper than a triple gauge conversion...up to you,
engine harness ,only one go to guy on that,pm Perry Kiehl top man makes a great product,
throttle, use stock 911 parts and drill and tap the gearbox housing or buy and expensive conversion kit..again your call,
shiftrod ? spend the coin on a Tangerine conversion...cause it works,mine was a mare to custom build...again up to you,

Just factor in a lot of time and $$$ as mentioned cause there's always this bit and that bit....all adds up even if you buy shit loads on pre-made conversion parts.
All in all a great conversion everytime you drive .

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 13 2018, 06:58 AM

Wait - Forrest is on here? Great.

I know him, I watched him build his car next to me at the workshop. Is Keith on here too?

I'll give Forrest a ring.

Will update the list above, thanks for the considerations and ideas.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 13 2018, 07:15 AM

914-6 trans mid-plate for throttle or some other contraption, not sure w/FI | any ideas?
Rich Johnson - a914guy@aol.com - reproduction 914-6 throttle linkage with a bracket to make it bolt onto a 914-4 trans.

I really like the pivoting engine mounts. Either Patric Motor Sports - PMS or Naro Motorsports. I have 2 of the Naro mounts. They are $125 less than PMS and I like them best.

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 13 2018, 07:56 AM

Good morning.

These folks?

https://naroescapemotorsports.com/

Does Rich's kit with a Tangerine shift linkage set up?

Thanks!

Posted by: mb911 Jan 13 2018, 08:44 AM

Tom,

I am going to try to call you today to talk through all your options..

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 13 2018, 08:45 AM

Thanks

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 19 2018, 06:52 AM

Good morning. Quick follow-on question;

I sourced a nice 3.0 911 tachometer, not sure what other gauges from a 911 I will need?

Speedometer should be OK as I am using a 901. Oil pressure? Engine Temp? Are those different gauges due to sender differences?

Thanks!

Posted by: mb911 Jan 19 2018, 06:03 PM

Did you decide to run a 3.0? I would don't recall what works with what sender vs gauge.. I am not at that point but I will be soon enough and will have to research that myself..

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 19 2018, 06:10 PM

Hi Ben. Yes, as of right now I'm planning to run a 3 L. I figure if the 3 L engine was happy to talk to the 3 L tachometer in a 911, it will probably be OK with everything fitted here too.

Whoever gets there first should make sure to let the one know!

Posted by: Tdskip Mar 8 2018, 05:09 PM

OK - time for an update here.

I've decided to run 3.2 so that changes some things.

One open item is where to source the bellhousing mounted throttle cable assembly.

Stock clutch cable is OK, right?

Posted by: mepstein Mar 8 2018, 05:53 PM

I’m using the stock clutch cable. Contact Rich - A914guy@aol.com He is the guy who makes the throttle bellcrank with an adaptor to bolt onto your stock 914 trans. He includes the 914-6 cable and correct shaft to connect the bellcrank to the throttle plate. You either need to modify the small ball connector on the throttle plate arm to the other side of the arm (my guy did it in 5 minutes) or buy a kit to do it from Sierra Madre. It’s a very easy mod but easier when the engine is out of the car.

Posted by: mb911 Mar 8 2018, 06:24 PM

You will now for sure want 1.625 heat exchangers.. It will be very nice.

Posted by: Tdskip Mar 8 2018, 06:42 PM

Thank you, I just emailed Rich.

Ben, let's get the oil tank sorted out first before you spend anymore of my money!

Posted by: mepstein Mar 8 2018, 07:05 PM

You don’t need a custom engine harnes with a 3.2, you can buy the PMS harness adaptor. ~$180. It allows you to just plug the engine to the chassis harness.

Read this classic thread on upgrading your drivetrain. You will need bigger cv’s for these bigger engines. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=91963

Posted by: mb911 Mar 9 2018, 06:11 AM

When ever your ready. Let me know when you want to place the order.

Posted by: Tdskip Mar 9 2018, 10:13 AM

Thanks, I goofed on my update in that were redundant items for the harness, I did list the PMS adapter after we spoke. (Thanks)

What is the scoop on the axles? Is there a go to part? 911 bits?

None of this is theoretical anymore-I dropped the engine off at the shop yesterday. Gulp.




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Posted by: Tdskip Apr 9 2018, 07:49 AM

Good morning.

I have made pretty good progress on getting the bits together, lots of smaller things but last “bigger” items are front oil cooler and lines.

Any ideas on a good, but reasonably priced, front oil cooler?

Thanks!

Posted by: Cairo94507 Apr 9 2018, 08:40 AM

Outstanding progress on getting all of your parts together and getting the engine sorted for installation.

Posted by: Tdskip Apr 9 2018, 09:03 AM

Good morning, it's been fun and very gratifying watching your build progress.

Back to my car, I have loads of work to do still, having the parts does not equal having them installed! Grin.

My work plan is to try to assemble everything and then spend a focused amount of time doing the welding, body bracing, and the limited metal repair work that is in front of me. Doing all that with an empty engine bay seems to make a lot of sense.

The biggest variable is if the 3.2 L engine I picked up for Ethan is as healthy as it appeared to be. If it is healthy things will go relatively quickly once the transmission is ready courtesy of the tech day with Dr. Evil, if not I'm going to jump out a window ( not sure how many stories up yet).

Posted by: mb911 Apr 9 2018, 12:04 PM

Let me know what you decided on headers or heatexchangers. I have them on sale this week..

Posted by: GeorgeRud Apr 9 2018, 02:48 PM

Ben should have oil cooler lines and ducting for you as well. Should be a great car when completed!

Posted by: Larmo63 May 30 2019, 09:08 PM

Did this build go over the cliff?

What happened here?

Posted by: Tdskip Jul 12 2019, 07:06 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17068 , not over a cliff just deferred due to my buying a kind of silly number of other 914s. I also had to focus time/resources on two builds for charity events (Copper State 1000 Alfa GTV and pending Copper State Overland FJ40).

I picked up a muffler for the build this week and plan to coordinate with Ben in a couple months to make some more progress.

Posted by: Tdskip Jul 12 2019, 07:09 AM

Posted by: Tdskip Jul 12 2019, 07:13 AM

Oh, and I had my 2002Tii engine rebuild.

And bought a Lotus Elan project because, well, it is a Lotus Elan.

Posted by: Tdskip Jun 11 2020, 01:26 PM

Dusting this off as I don't believe I asked about which starter to use.

Standard 911 starter I assume? Rebuilt OEM off my '74 3.2L 911 should be OK, yes?

To round out the question - since there is a change in part number for 2.7l+ later engines correct that an earlier 2.0 - 2.4 long hood uses a different starter?

Thanks!

Posted by: mepstein Jun 11 2020, 01:33 PM

Yes. I would have the one with the engine checked and rebuilt if needed. A rebuild is usually a cheap preventative and you will know it fits properly vs buying a reman unit.

Posted by: Tdskip Jun 11 2020, 01:42 PM

Good coaching, will do exactly that.

Thanks

Posted by: Jonathan Livesay Jun 11 2020, 01:48 PM

Is that a Europa peeking out?

Posted by: mepstein Jun 11 2020, 02:25 PM

I did that many times along with the alternators for the shops builds. Way easier to do before the engine goes in the car, especially the alternator in a 914-6.

Posted by: Tdskip Sep 16 2020, 07:50 PM

Been a while but getting serious about getting the 3.2l in.

Welding in the Naro engine mount tomorrow, but before that need to get the oil tank holes cut.

I need to double check these against the actual tank from Ben but here are the sizes I found;

4.25" for the oil filter
2" for the breather hoses
2.5" for the filler neck

Any tips before I make the cuts? Gulp....

Posted by: porschetub Sep 17 2020, 05:14 PM

Good to see you are getting on with it ,someone on here must have a template or measurements ,the filter console one is the most important on to get right as the rubber seal is hard to fit,in my case I bought the URO version and thought the fit was poor but turned out the OP was out with his drilling,got it sorted but a bit of a hassle.....lucky as my engine wasn't fitted then.
Donor car looks good .

Posted by: Tdskip Sep 17 2020, 05:20 PM

Thanks mate, appreciate the response.

I’ve seen mention of a template, let me see if I can track it down.

Those sizes look about right?

BTW - went to install the Elan engine/gearbox today and I’ll just say I’d rather install 10 914 power trains instead of one Elan unit.

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 18 2020, 08:18 AM

Dan Roots template that I used, set printer at 8.5 X 11"

I found the big holes were a hair off, or at least my hole saw was off. Best to print this out and then check on the tank before cutting.

You also have to cut a hole in the engine tray for the bottom tank return/inlet). I did this by measuring and a bit of dead reckoning.

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 18 2020, 08:34 AM

dp

Posted by: Tdskip Sep 18 2020, 08:43 AM

Thank you Mark!

Posted by: Tdskip Sep 25 2020, 06:18 PM

Got some good news today, the shop going through the 3.2L for me did a valve adjustment and I’ve got good leak down (cold) the board. Expect that they will improve some one it is run some.

Still debating what to do about the Naro mount.

Posted by: nditiz1 Sep 25 2020, 07:09 PM

Thats great news.

Sell the Naro and get the OEM style.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 24 2020, 02:31 PM

It’s in.