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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Options to get Wider Track

Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 13 2018, 01:54 AM

Hello, new guy here, I just picked up a donated 914 that is barely a roller, and will be used with a kitcar body and some offbrand junkyard motor/transaxle setup, for a super cheap road racer. To get this to look right, I need to use modern high negative offset wheels AND I need to widen the track width by 6 inches.

I know there are a lot of 'flared fender' 914s, this is probably a little wider than those, but can I just use 3 inch spacers to get the wider track? Seems a bit questionable for an actual road raced car. Not that I can afford good 3 inch spacers anyway.

Here is one that looks wide enough, not sure what suspension is in this v8 car.

IPB Image

I am thinking I should just go ahead and replace entirely the front and rear suspensions with ones that have the right width. I actually have a couple Volvo v70 fwd suspensions that are just the right width and can put them in front and back with all the necessary tubing welding, etc, etc.

Is there a simpler good cheap way. I need all three...simple, cheap, good.

This isn't the body kit i'm using, but to give an idea why I need wider track.

IPB Image

Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 13 2018, 02:12 AM

So I just looked into the green one, and it seems to use the stockish rear suspension, but just has huge positive offset wheels. Now correct me if I am wrong, but this has the same loading as big wheel spacers and negative offset wheels, i.e. the wheels still have a big leverage on the bearings and suspension arms.

What I came up with/wonder is if I can relocate the swing arm location on the pivot bar to move it outwards? Shock mount would also have to move outward too.

IPB Image


Posted by: tygaboy Jan 13 2018, 08:11 AM

Problem with using the stock trailing arms is you're limited to how much back spacing the wheel can have as it'll rub the trailing arm.
IMO, if you're "going crazy" with rear tire width and want to do it right, go with an a-arm set up. A couple folks here have grafted late model 911 suspension onto their chassis. Not for the faint of heart... but epic coolness rarely is!

If I was going that way, I'd look into an unequal length a-arm set up. C5 Corvette, something like that. BTW, I have an entire C5 rear suspension, including the rear section of the frame rails (makes it easy to build a jig to replicate the geometry).

You're is Sac. I'm in Petaluma. If you're interested, feel free to come by. You can poke around my LS build and take a look at the Corvette stuff. Seeing things in person always helps me when I'm thinking through stuff like this.

Either way, best of luck with your build.

Chris

Posted by: r_towle Jan 13 2018, 08:57 AM

Tube chassis and unequal a arms

Posted by: jd74914 Jan 13 2018, 09:06 AM

agree.gif You're better off going unequal double wishbone on something you want to use really high offset wheels. This is something of an issue for people who want to keep some of their 914 intact (I considered it with my suspension mods but wanted to save my trunks), but if that's not a big deal it'd be much easier. Some strut cars have spindles really easy to convert to wishbone style uprights (think Miata like the Locost guys). Lots of work though and never especially cheap!

Posted by: GeorgeRud Jan 13 2018, 10:43 AM

Far from cheap no matter which way you go. I’d think wide wheels with the proper offset would be the easiest way to go. However, what are you going to be powering those wheels with? A stock 4 cylinder doesn’t need any wider tires. I think you have choices on the width of Sheridan Bodies, so perhaps a more conservative setup may work better for you.

Enjoy your project!

Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 13 2018, 11:10 AM

I'd be thrilled to use a C5 setup and no problem to drive to petaluma, I consider easy work to drive a long way to get stuff cheap.

The racing organization doesn't allow tube-frame cars, I already asked, so my kitcar body must be on an existing car, and of course, pre-1976, mid-engine, so 914 was my choice donor car.
This car should have about 500 hp.

QUOTE(tygaboy @ Jan 13 2018, 06:11 AM) *

Problem with using the stock trailing arms is you're limited to how much back spacing the wheel can have as it'll rub the trailing arm.
IMO, if you're "going crazy" with rear tire width and want to do it right, go with an a-arm set up. A couple folks here have grafted late model 911 suspension onto their chassis. Not for the faint of heart... but epic coolness rarely is!

If I was going that way, I'd look into an unequal length a-arm set up. C5 Corvette, something like that. BTW, I have an entire C5 rear suspension, including the rear section of the frame rails (makes it easy to build a jig to replicate the geometry).

You're is Sac. I'm in Petaluma. If you're interested, feel free to come by. You can poke around my LS build and take a look at the Corvette stuff. Seeing things in person always helps me when I'm thinking through stuff like this.

Either way, best of luck with your build.

Chris


Posted by: Mueller Jan 13 2018, 11:36 AM

Subframe assemblies as mentioned above.

Corvette or Porsche. These could be installed if you get creative without doing a true tube frame vehicle.

Porsche: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=142936

For Corvette, just do google image search using "Corvette subframe unibody"

'Vette might be cheaper and will be easier/cheaper for wheels and such.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 13 2018, 11:43 AM

Thread showing 996 rear subframe in a 914. You can see how with some tubing it can be installed.

If you did it just right using perhaps rectangle tubing it might look more "stock' than using round tubing for the attachment pieces.

Posted by: tygaboy Jan 13 2018, 01:48 PM

QUOTE(nimblemotorsports @ Jan 13 2018, 09:10 AM) *

I'd be thrilled to use a C5 setup and no problem to drive to petaluma, I consider easy work to drive a long way to get stuff cheap.

The racing organization doesn't allow tube-frame cars, I already asked, so my kitcar body must be on an existing car, and of course, pre-1976, mid-engine, so 914 was my choice donor car.
This car should have about 500 hp.

QUOTE(tygaboy @ Jan 13 2018, 06:11 AM) *

Problem with using the stock trailing arms is you're limited to how much back spacing the wheel can have as it'll rub the trailing arm.
IMO, if you're "going crazy" with rear tire width and want to do it right, go with an a-arm set up. A couple folks here have grafted late model 911 suspension onto their chassis. Not for the faint of heart... but epic coolness rarely is!

If I was going that way, I'd look into an unequal length a-arm set up. C5 Corvette, something like that. BTW, I have an entire C5 rear suspension, including the rear section of the frame rails (makes it easy to build a jig to replicate the geometry).

You're is Sac. I'm in Petaluma. If you're interested, feel free to come by. You can poke around my LS build and take a look at the Corvette stuff. Seeing things in person always helps me when I'm thinking through stuff like this.

Either way, best of luck with your build.

Chris




PM sent - give me a call if you'd like to meet up.
Chris

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 14 2018, 07:16 AM

Ron Kain at IPB Autosport on C Street downtown Sacramento had a 914 race car just about like that. He partnered with Bob Peake IIRC. There are pics of that car on here somewhere.

Posted by: ablesnead Jan 14 2018, 10:11 AM

Lets see ...super cheap road racer with modified drive train , junkyard motor with 500 horsepower.....I see an oxymoron in there somewhere ,,,

Posted by: PanelBilly Jan 14 2018, 10:12 AM

So what class would you be Ravi g this car in?

Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 14 2018, 11:03 AM

Looking closer at the 914 rear suspension, I am thinking I can splice in an extension tubing in the swingarm to move out the wheel mounting. I really like how simple it is.
I just know if I fabbed up something that was the same people say it would never work, but HA! porsche did it, and they race these 914 right?

I also had a Boxster I converted to an EV, and it has a very complicated rear setup, I'm surprised someone when to all the trouble to swap it into a 914, some real talent there.

Studying the C5 pics, it looks like it may be too complicated also.

I'm also building a mid-engine Audi V8 Corvair using a 944 suspension, and I have another 944 suspension and thought of putting it in the 914, but I think that is going into my Pinto. The 914 setup leaves a lot of room inside.

Have attached pics of all the 914 you get for $200... lol


QUOTE(ablesnead @ Jan 14 2018, 08:11 AM) *

Lets see ...super cheap road racer with modified drive train , junkyard motor with 500 horsepower.....I see an oxymoron in there somewhere ,,,


Not an oxymoron, just a moron! lol But with turbos big HP is cheap.

I may start with just 100 or 200 hp, but need to plan for the bigger engine.Attached Image

Posted by: Blue6 Jan 14 2018, 11:21 AM

"Super cheap road racer" av-943.gif
welcome.png

Posted by: ablesnead Jan 14 2018, 03:55 PM

No tubo motor is even remotely cheap...they have to be expensively controlled , or they are short fused grenades on a track.....But I can see that this is meaningless to a corvair / pinto aficionado ....smells Trollish honestly

Posted by: Mueller Jan 14 2018, 04:07 PM

----

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 14 2018, 06:02 PM

I'm confused.... thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif

Is the purple one your car?
Those are GT flares, use the stock suspension. maybe beef it up a bit for higher HP.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 14 2018, 06:17 PM

Green car in your 1st post has stock width suspension.

No reason to widen track. I question entire post now reading it again. Volvo FWD suspension? How did I miss that? screwy.gif

http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/project/914-v-8-blown-monster/#image_2

Posted by: jcd914 Jan 14 2018, 07:11 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jan 14 2018, 05:16 AM) *

Ron Kain at IPB Autosport on C Street downtown Sacramento had a 914 race car just about like that. He partnered with Bob Peake IIRC. There are pics of that car on here somewhere.


I helped Ron and Bob prep and race it and it has 914 rear suspension on it.
Lots of custom work but the suspension is based on 914 suspension.

You don't need to transplant another suspension in for the flares on the purple car.

I thought this car was sold a few years ago but it is listed on Craigslist in Sacramento.
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/d/porscherace-car/6431403178.html

Jim

Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 14 2018, 09:23 PM

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jan 14 2018, 04:02 PM) *

I'm confused.... thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif

Is the purple one your car?
Those are GT flares, use the stock suspension. maybe beef it up a bit for higher HP.


Yes the $200 purple car is what I just bought for this project.

Here is my $1 944 too, if you want more pics...
oh that is on my phone, here is my corvair....
Attached Image

Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 14 2018, 09:43 PM

QUOTE(Mueller @ Jan 14 2018, 04:17 PM) *

Green car in your 1st post has stock width suspension.

No reason to widen track. I question entire post now reading it again. Volvo FWD suspension? How did I miss that? screwy.gif

http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/project/914-v-8-blown-monster/#image_2


I think you must have missed the entire point! I am putting another body on this 914,
and THAT body is 6 inches wider than even the flared 914.

I already said this is a stupid crazy project. Volvo suspension makes perfect sense to me! It has the perfect track width for my other body.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 14 2018, 09:50 PM

QUOTE(nimblemotorsports @ Jan 14 2018, 07:43 PM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Jan 14 2018, 04:17 PM) *

Green car in your 1st post has stock width suspension.

No reason to widen track. I question entire post now reading it again. Volvo FWD suspension? How did I miss that? screwy.gif

http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/project/914-v-8-blown-monster/#image_2


I think you must have missed the entire point! I am putting another body on this 914,
and THAT body is 6 inches wider than even the flared 914.

I already said this is a stupid crazy project. Volvo suspension makes perfect sense to me! It has the perfect track width for my other body.


I've tracked my '98 S70 T5, I wouldn't think of using anything from it for a hot rod (except for the engine since I made adapter plates to bolt that series motor to a Ford T5 transmission for RWD applications)


Posted by: Mueller Jan 14 2018, 09:52 PM

QUOTE(nimblemotorsports @ Jan 14 2018, 07:23 PM) *

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jan 14 2018, 04:02 PM) *

I'm confused.... thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif

Is the purple one your car?
Those are GT flares, use the stock suspension. maybe beef it up a bit for higher HP.


Yes the $200 purple car is what I just bought for this project.

Here is my $1 944 too, if you want more pics...
oh that is on my phone, here is my corvair....
Attached Image


I take you've seen this car?
Suspension from 2 different 911 series vehicles, I think he lives somewhere in the Bay Area as I've seen him at a few different car shows locally.

http://www.streetmusclemag.com/news/classic-chevy-corvair-gets-porsche-transplant/

Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 14 2018, 11:54 PM

QUOTE
I take you've seen this car?
Suspension from 2 different 911 series vehicles, I think he lives somewhere in the Bay Area as I've seen him at a few different car shows locally.

http://www.streetmusclemag.com/news/classic-chevy-corvair-gets-porsche-transplant/


I've seen that article, not the actual car in person. Looks like some nice work!

To get back to my 914-based kitcar project, here are the swing arms, seems I can just splice in some more round tubing to extend out the wheel mounting. No opinions on this idea?
Seems just as good as wheel spacers or big offset wheels like we see on other cars.

I also need a wider track in the front too!

In regards to the Volvo parts, the volvo is like a 3500 lb car, it has big disks and brakes compared to the 914 parts. Also, no way I can afford to use 911 parts.

IPB Image

Posted by: Justinp71 Jan 15 2018, 12:41 PM


How much longer is the other body? Making it longer wheel base will alter the driving dynamics and you will need to move the transmission back as well. Also your shock mounting points will be in the wrong location if you plan to use those. Hopefully the new body is longer past the axle also?

If you want to eventually have ~500hp I would suggest an LS or Subaru turbo motor. Audi 4 cyl turbo is another popular option.


Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 15 2018, 08:31 PM

The wheelbase is not being changed, just the wheel track, i.e. how far apart the wheels are. The car body is 12 inches wider than a 914. You could ask why use a 914 then, you idiot, use a Fiero or something else... but it must be older than 1976.
Because the 914 is smaller, I can put the body panels on without cutting up the 914 unibody structure, this is a requirement for the racing organization, otherwise, they will say it is a custom built tube-framed non-street-car and won't allow it.

I really don't want to say what the body is until it is done, cuz some moron who is dumber than me will do it first and that will really piss me off!

IPB Image


QUOTE(Justinp71 @ Jan 15 2018, 10:41 AM) *

How much longer is the other body? Making it longer wheel base will alter the driving dynamics and you will need to move the transmission back as well. Also your shock mounting points will be in the wrong location if you plan to use those. Hopefully the new body is longer past the axle also?

If you want to eventually have ~500hp I would suggest an LS or Subaru turbo motor. Audi 4 cyl turbo is another popular option.


Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 15 2018, 09:01 PM

QUOTE(nimblemotorsports @ Jan 15 2018, 01:54 AM) *

To get back to my 914-based kitcar project, here are the swing arms, seems I can just splice in some more round tubing to extend out the wheel mounting. No opinions on this idea?

Vellios used to make a replacement section for the trailing arms that did a little of what you have in mind. Their cast piece had a deeper bearing pocket for 911SC bearings and 3 1/2" bolt spaced ears for larger calipers.
I think you would be wise to incorporate a similar mod at the same time as you extend the tube.
You will have to stiffen the trailing arms to resist the increased twisting loads.

My raised rear suspension kit would allow you to spread the trailing arm mounts on the chassis, maybe an inch on each side would be possible without difficulty.
But I have no kits in stock and I'm busy enough that it would be a few months before I found time to build one.

Posted by: Jeff Hail Jan 15 2018, 10:07 PM

QUOTE(nimblemotorsports @ Jan 14 2018, 10:54 PM) *

QUOTE
I take you've seen this car?
Suspension from 2 different 911 series vehicles, I think he lives somewhere in the Bay Area as I've seen him at a few different car shows locally.

http://www.streetmusclemag.com/news/classic-chevy-corvair-gets-porsche-transplant/


I've seen that article, not the actual car in person. Looks like some nice work!

To get back to my 914-based kitcar project, here are the swing arms, seems I can just splice in some more round tubing to extend out the wheel mounting. No opinions on this idea?
Seems just as good as wheel spacers or big offset wheels like we see on other cars.

I also need a wider track in the front too!

In regards to the Volvo parts, the volvo is like a 3500 lb car, it has big disks and brakes compared to the 914 parts. Also, no way I can afford to use 911 parts.

IPB Image


Howdy son,

Its not as easy as you think to just go and weld in some inches to the bearing carriers. Have you plotted the outer CV joint angles? Thought about axles rubbing the inboard side of the carrier tubes as you move the hubs outward?

Make it easy.
Almost every racer that has built a mortgage level race car has been able to utilize the stock configuration by simply reinforcing arms and pickups in one way or another.

Even the business class racers still use that configuration with the exception of custom arms and going north into tube chassis territory. Like my buddy Roger Sheridan and folks like Carl Amond when he built his car etc.

Couple of reasons -It does work and the racing rule book for certain groups says Gentlemen start your engines but you really cant mess with this, that and that thing over there. Then we have this group that uses what we call silhouetting. "Hey it looks stock configuration to me just a little beefier and safer, ya know it kinda does and everything is safety wired so we will let you run". Its much tougher to get past spec these days with scrutineers.

Then there are the free agents that just build what they want. Bat shit crazy we all love to see like Pandoras Box with the blown big small block, Tygas project, Danas Ankle killer speedster and many others here. Each has a madness to it but we love it because its different..its a form of art..

Vulva suspension on a 914? No - strut mounting is way to high on top and bottom and its damn heavy. You don't need tank parts on a 914. Lots of better options out there for suspension. You already have half a 911 now why change what still kicks ass today or you could go C5, Miata, Lotus, 996 with a lot more work. If you are looking to put 300,400, 500 HP on the ground it can be done with the factory configuration by strengthening the unibody and pickups. (cage, reinforcements etc)

Vulva engine and transmission. Most of the newer AWD's are sidewinder engines. That presents a space problem since both the engine and transaxles are fat to say the least. The transfer case is piggybacked or integral on any AWD. If you went with an older AWD option (since old Vulvas were RWD) that transaxle is something like 40 inches long with another 4 inches of slip joint sticking out the rear. If you can make it rain a new M66 six speed may work but hence its still a sidewinder and space is an issue for anything other than a 'longitudinale posteriore' layout.

Porsche, Audi, Suby transaxles are going to the best bet here. Volvo makes great SKF bearings but the boys at Gotthenberg didn't do so good in the racing arena as others did.

All sorts of options for powertrains from Porsche, Subaru, Wankel, Audi even a nice small block like a crate or used 350 which is about as cheap as it gets for the HP buck. Once you get into turbos and huffers open your wallet, it takes rain. If you are skilled and can do all the modifications yourself you will save a bunch.

Now about that body? You are going to put another body on this 914? I think we got that assuming a kit car body or some type of GRP material being grafted like a Lazer, Manx, Sterling or Colon Coachworks fitment BUT 6 inches wider. We are holding our breath -cant wait to see what you have in store.

Widening the track: Take a look at the examples. Most have gone with high offset wheels and spacers even the business class jets.

My neighbor upstairs Racer Chris Foley makes a bitch'en pick up kit. Its probably one of if not the strongest well though out modifications you might consider doing. Price is reasonable and quality top notch.


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Posted by: nimblemotorsports Jan 16 2018, 01:05 PM

I think we can sum up by saying super dish wheels is the way almost everyone increase track width on a 914. And since that won't work for me..

I have confirmed that everyone agrees using Volvo setup is a bad, stupid idea.
Perfect, then Volvo is what I should do!

BTW, just to add a pic, I snapped a shot of this vehicle where I picked up the $200 914.
I bet most would agree this was a bad idea! lol

Attached Image

Posted by: Justinp71 Jan 16 2018, 01:09 PM

QUOTE(nimblemotorsports @ Jan 15 2018, 06:31 PM) *

The wheelbase is not being changed, just the wheel track, i.e. how far apart the wheels are. The car body is 12 inches wider than a 914. You could ask why use a 914 then, you idiot, use a Fiero or something else... but it must be older than 1976.
Because the 914 is smaller, I can put the body panels on without cutting up the 914 unibody structure, this is a requirement for the racing organization, otherwise, they will say it is a custom built tube-framed non-street-car and won't allow it.

I really don't want to say what the body is until it is done, cuz some moron who is dumber than me will do it first and that will really piss me off!

IPB Image


QUOTE(Justinp71 @ Jan 15 2018, 10:41 AM) *

How much longer is the other body? Making it longer wheel base will alter the driving dynamics and you will need to move the transmission back as well. Also your shock mounting points will be in the wrong location if you plan to use those. Hopefully the new body is longer past the axle also?

If you want to eventually have ~500hp I would suggest an LS or Subaru turbo motor. Audi 4 cyl turbo is another popular option.





Got it! From an engineering perspective it wont matter too much if you use deeper dish wheels, wheel spacers or extend the tube on the trailing arm (unless one of those items was a weak link itself.). You will still have the same moment force on the trailing arm from what I can tell. The only real advantage would be if you created a way to re-mount the trailing arm out farther (sounds like a lot of work!)

Fyi you can get up to 110mm studs, I think that will increase overall track ~5" I'm guessing. Then get another 7" from wider wheels. Then re-enforce the trailing arms like others have said.

914 is also pre-smog which is a huge bonus

Posted by: Mueller Jan 16 2018, 06:27 PM

A setup that is being used on the "real" RWD Volvos like my 242* is S60 rotors (330mm) and Cadillac CTS-V calipers which can be found as cheap as $118 at the dealers so figure even cheaper used.

*Mine is getting Cobra Mustang SN95 spindles with 13" rotors and bigger calipers once I figure out how I am going to tap the strut housing I cut 3" off of to make the Saab Bilstiens fit in them..... so yes many of us have oddball projects with crap from other makes and models.

Posted by: Justinp71 Jan 16 2018, 11:23 PM

QUOTE(nimblemotorsports @ Jan 16 2018, 11:05 AM) *

I think we can sum up by saying super dish wheels is the way almost everyone increase track width on a 914. And since that won't work for me..

I have confirmed that everyone agrees using Volvo setup is a bad, stupid idea.
Perfect, then Volvo is what I should do!

BTW, just to add a pic, I snapped a shot of this vehicle where I picked up the $200 914.
I bet most would agree this was a bad idea! lol

Attached Image


Ha, does that have a v8 in it? Looks like a Tonka toy, but in a weird way it is a respectable build.

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