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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Oh no! Lost oil pressure ...
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 15 2018, 08:38 PM
Got stuck in traffic on my way home from work today and didn't notice the oil light until the engine started making horrible noise.
Did the only thing i could think of which was to pull onto the side strip and get on the gas hoping to get oil pressure back.
That actually worked!
Pressure went back up to ~80 under load and ~30 at idle for the rest of the drive home but i'm afraid i might have done some permanent damage.
By the time i noticed the engine noise and the pressure being at zero i was probably already running completely dry.
Now the real question is, how the heck did that happen?
I checked the oil after i got home and it's still all in there. All 16 quarts of it.
Could there be a blockage somewhere? Stuck piston? Clogged filter?
Posted by: mepstein Feb 15 2018, 08:58 PM
Got stuck in traffic on my way home from work today and didn't notice the oil light until the engine started making horrible noise.
Did the only thing i could think of which was to pull onto the side strip and get on the gas hoping to get oil pressure back.
That actually worked!
Pressure went back up to ~80 under load and ~30 at idle for the rest of the drive home but i'm afraid i might have done some permanent damage.
By the time i noticed the engine noise and the pressure being at zero i was probably already running completely dry.
Now the real question is, how the heck did that happen?
I checked the oil after i got home and it's still all in there. All 16 quarts of it.
Could there be a blockage somewhere? Stuck piston? Clogged filter?
That sucks. I would cut open the oil filter and look for gold.
Posted by: flyer86d Feb 15 2018, 09:07 PM
Yes, I agree. Cut the filter open.
What would starve the pressure pump?
Charlie
Posted by: Marty Yeoman Feb 15 2018, 09:08 PM
Ouch
Posted by: aharder Feb 15 2018, 09:10 PM
That does suck !! Hope there's not any major damage
Posted by: toolguy Feb 15 2018, 09:15 PM
The oil filter canister should have a spring for oil bypass if it gets clogged so that probably isn't it. . The oil filter base assembly has a pressure bypass also. . Scavenge pump and pressure pump are always turning so oil should be returning to the oil tank always . . . the bypass valve on the side of the engine case is the over pressure bypass valve that bleeds off excess pressure right out of the oil pump . . there is another over pressure on the bottom of the sump which is the end of the oil supply galley. . . either of those could bleed off some pressure but i wouldn't expect a total loss that returns when you reved the motor. . that is puzzling. .
I would pull the sump cover off and see if the wire screen is plugged at the oil inlet tube.
Posted by: MarkV Feb 15 2018, 09:25 PM
If after the event you had 30 psi at an idle I wouldn't think you damaged bearings? What was the idle pressure before the event?
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 15 2018, 09:29 PM
Same as after, about ~30 at idle and ~80 under load ...
PS: Also should mention, the noise went away once the oil pressure came back up, but it sure was a loud mechanical noise like a bad bearing or a valve hitting a piston
Posted by: Chris914n6 Feb 15 2018, 09:31 PM
3.6L right?
Hydraulic lifters? Hydraulic cam guides? What do you think the noise was?
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 15 2018, 09:32 PM
Hydraulic lifters? Hydraulic cam guides? What do you think the noise was?
Doh, yes, could it be that the lifters ran out of oil???
Posted by: Krieger Feb 15 2018, 09:33 PM
This may be stupid, but was the engine about to die because of some sort of idling issue? Hence the noise and green light on. Maybe some shaking?
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 15 2018, 09:34 PM
This may be stupid, but was the engine about to die because of some sort of idling issue? Hence the noise and green light on. Maybe some shaking?
Nope, the engine was running ok through all of it, no shaking. Oil pressure was at dead 0 though ...
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Posted by: Krieger Feb 15 2018, 09:46 PM
From my wondrous experience with my 3.0L I learned a lot. I couldn't get oil out of the case fast enough and the extra 3-4 quarts in the engine sump really slowed the motor a lot. I could feel the loss of power. There also was evidence near the breather on top of the case for this. It doesn't sound like this was you problem and it didn't leak out. My thoughts would be why a full tank of oil wasn't making it to/through the pump, or how am I bleeding ALL the pressure.
Posted by: Krieger Feb 15 2018, 09:56 PM
Hope this is helpful.
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Posted by: SirAndy Feb 15 2018, 10:04 PM
Hope this is helpful.
Well that explains it, i was running everything upside down!
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 15 2018, 10:32 PM
youve had a good run on that 3.6...time for case through bollt o rings rod bearings bolts, rod bearings, rings, valve job..min,,good catch , 90% sure you have at least one or two thin rod bearing...the way of the 3.6,,If it not leaking ouut the #8 or partingline..
Posted by: 914_teener Feb 15 2018, 10:34 PM
I vote for dissecting the Oil filter.
Car sitting a while Andy?
Sludge into an oil passage and rev cleared the sludge?
Posted by: SO.O.C914er Feb 15 2018, 10:35 PM
Andy if you were running everything upside down I would think the pressure on your head would have been unbearable! 
Posted by: Mueller Feb 15 2018, 10:57 PM
What 911 did the motor come out of? If 964 based I thought those are solid lifters.
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 15 2018, 11:05 PM
'95 993, last of the true air cooled ...
Posted by: r_towle Feb 15 2018, 11:13 PM
Park it, finish up the house projects.
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 15 2018, 11:15 PM
Well, i just did some reading and apparently it's pretty common for the lifters to gunk up and collapse.
Posted by: Krieger Feb 15 2018, 11:31 PM
What damage have those motors seen. So what is the solution? Teardown? A couple of oil changes?
Posted by: 76-914 Feb 16 2018, 08:50 AM
Well, i just did some reading and apparently it's pretty common for the lifters to gunk up and collapse.
Well, that’s good news; I think. Weird. Anyway, glad it fixed itself. You don’t need a rebuild on top of a remodel.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 16 2018, 10:04 AM
You're just guessing until you start examining stuff. The first step is to open up the oil filter and see if there is any metal trapped in it.
--DD
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 16 2018, 11:05 AM
But that was sort of the point of this thread, i want people to guess so i can cover more possibilities.
There are many people on here that know a lot more about /6 engines than i do ...
Posted by: mepstein Feb 16 2018, 11:18 AM
But that was sort of the point of this thread, i want people to guess so i can cover more possibilities.
There are many people on here that know a lot more about /6 engines than i do ...
See post #2. It can be a lot of things but the oil filter will tell you a lot with very little effort. If you see gold, you will know to pull the engine for a rebuild. No other search needed. If the oil looks clean, then step 2.
Posted by: Chris914n6 Feb 16 2018, 01:22 PM
Hydraulic lifters? Hydraulic cam guides? What do you think the noise was?
Doh, yes, could it be that the lifters ran out of oil???
Lifters are at the end of the supply chain, so it's likely what you heard. Sounds like tapping an unsharpened pencil on a desk.
Doesn't explain the pressure loss though. Since it recovered I'd check for sludge buildup somewhere.
Cutting the filter open is still a good idea. It will answer the bigger questions.
Posted by: 914dave Feb 16 2018, 01:43 PM
3.6L right?
Hydraulic lifters? Hydraulic cam guides? What do you think the noise was?
I agree on the lifters. I would investigate the filter. It might have been the feed hose restricted. Scary stuff!!!
Posted by: bulitt Feb 17 2018, 06:43 AM
No smoke out of the tailpipe means your rings are still good..
Posted by: JOEPROPER Feb 17 2018, 07:19 AM
I don't know if these engines are prone to sludge, but most people change engine oil on collector / hobby cars way before it's due. I don't put that many miles on my car each year, so it doesn't get away from me. Hopefully it's an easy fix. I'd cut the filter open and take a look first because it's the easiest thing to do.
Posted by: PanelBilly Feb 17 2018, 10:15 AM
Maybe send the oil out for analysis. That’s not too expensive
Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 17 2018, 10:39 AM
Well, i just did some reading and apparently it's pretty common for the lifters to gunk up and collapse.
Paul Sayeh had a couple collapsed lifters when he first got his 3.6 from LA Dismantlers. And we all know how that turned out...
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Feb 17 2018, 10:43 AM
I got one of these to cut open the oil filters on my Cessna 150 but I also use it for my car. I cut it open, slide a strong, slim magnet between the folds of the filter. I then cut out the filter paper, unfold it, take it out in the sun and check for shiny bits. If you want to borrow mine, I'll ship it up to you. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/oilfiltercutteraviation.php?clickkey=4975
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Feb 17 2018, 10:50 AM
You can also send a sample to these guys. I know, this is airplane stuff but it's still an air cooled boxer style horizontally opposed engine. I have airplane oil checked every oil change every 25 hours. I know that sounds like over-kill but if my engine has trouble, I can't pull over and stop on the side of the road. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/labOneKit.php?clickkey=3058045
Posted by: mb911 Feb 17 2018, 12:06 PM
Andy my concern is that the lifters don't have much to do with oil pressure as the pressure is measured prior to that point..
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Feb 17 2018, 07:18 PM
Do you have braided stainless oil lines? If so I'd recommend checking all the oil lines. I've seen those things internally collapse closed, and the outside of the hose looked perfect.
Posted by: wndsrfr Feb 17 2018, 09:21 PM
OK, 'nother thought....is there a pinhole leak in your cooler such that when the thermostat kicked the oil pressure dropped out for a bit?
Posted by: Tdskip Feb 17 2018, 09:38 PM
See post #2. It can be a lot of things but the oil filter will tell you a lot with very little effort. If you see gold, you will know to pull the engine for a rebuild. No other search needed. If the oil looks clean, then step 2.
I think this is really good advice. Having had a similar experience there's a risk of chasing anything and everything without getting to ground truth.
Getting a lab to let you know what's in the oil is also a really good idea I think.
My fingers and toes are crossed for you that that the filter is clean.
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 17 2018, 10:20 PM
Andy my concern is that the lifters don't have much to do with oil pressure as the pressure is measured prior to that point..
I know the two aren't related, there is/was obviously also a blockage somewhere ...
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 17 2018, 10:21 PM
The only braided line is the shot hose from the tank to the hardline going to the engine.
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 17 2018, 10:22 PM
OK, 'nother thought....is there a pinhole leak in your cooler such that when the thermostat kicked the oil pressure dropped out for a bit?
No leaks anywhere that i could find, the oil is still all in there, the dipstick shows just about middle between the high and low marks.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 18 2018, 06:45 AM
Since we're guessing:
A piece of paper towel got into the tank and wound up across the pickup. It finally dislodged and things are back to normal for now. The loss of pressure caused the hydraulic lifters to hammer the valve tips, caused the piston skirts to scuff the cylinder walls, and put a lot of wear on your bearings.
Of course, if you drained the oil and checked the filter, you could get some idea of what is actually going on, but until then we can keep speculating and telling you it's all doom and gloom....
--DD
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 18 2018, 10:57 AM
Funny you should say that, i am missing a shop towel that was tucked away in the engine bay ...
Posted by: Cracker Feb 18 2018, 12:20 PM
When did you change the oil last Sir-Andy? Sorry that happened...whatever the cause. I have an engine shipping Monday from an oil related failure = feel your pain!
Cracker
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 18 2018, 12:34 PM
Right before McMark moved his shop. The car hasn't been driven much since though.
Posted by: Rand Feb 18 2018, 12:48 PM
Yeah, it only won the WCR AX. Maybe the flogging followed by non use has stacked up a toll?
I worry about this with mine. It's been sitting lately. They need to be driven regularly and filtered as much.
Question: Can sludge be flushed with chemical additives and such? I know there are a ton of products on the shelves that make claims. But, they must sacrifice good oiling in the process if they are dissolving that crap. Sigh. I hope this doesn't mean a tear down.
There should be like a dialysis machine that you could hook up to and flush every oil passage clean while offline. Heh.
Posted by: Krieger Mar 10 2018, 12:55 PM
Any updates?
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 10 2018, 01:03 PM
I've been avoiding the car, i haven't touched it since ...
Posted by: Krieger Mar 10 2018, 01:40 PM
Sorry man. I totally get it.
Posted by: Krieger Mar 10 2018, 02:39 PM
Fwiw, in my search for information on hydraulic lifters for type 1 (not here) I came across guys that were having troubles with hydraulic lifters that ran a thinner weight oil for a while to help "clean things out". Maybe there is something to that? Do an oil/filter analysis first of course.
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Mar 10 2018, 03:19 PM
Yeah, it only won the WCR AX. Maybe the flogging followed by non use has stacked up a toll?
I worry about this with mine. It's been sitting lately. They need to be driven regularly and filtered as much.
Question: Can sludge be flushed with chemical additives and such? I know there are a ton of products on the shelves that make claims. But, they must sacrifice good oiling in the process if they are dissolving that crap. Sigh. I hope this doesn't mean a tear down.
There should be like a dialysis machine that you could hook up to and flush every oil passage clean while offline. Heh.
I had a friend years ago who would drain the oil and then fill the sump/oil pan with kerosene, run the engine for a very short time, drain the kerosene, then refill with oil again. He swore it would clean things out. Did I mention this guy was very "old school"?
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 11 2018, 12:50 PM
You can also send a sample to these guys. I know, this is airplane stuff but it's still an air cooled boxer style horizontally opposed engine. I have airplane oil checked every oil change every 25 hours. I know that sounds like over-kill but if my engine has trouble, I can't pull over and stop on the side of the road.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/labOneKit.php?clickkey=3058045Second that. I lost pressure at idle once. Half way to the RRC one year. Caught a flight home. Went back with a trailer for the car. Had the filter oil tested. The viscosity enhancers were cooked out of the oil. No metal. My 20/50 was the viscosity of 20 W. Changed the oil every thing was fine. Ask the truckers in your are where they get this done.
Posted by: injunmort Mar 11 2018, 01:51 PM
really, just run the motor on kerosene? i guess if you want to see the main bearings in the sump. you want to flush, run a pint of atf in the oil and then change. there is so much detergent in atf it will flush it or you can use seafoam in the oil. or just run the motor dry, the heat and friction will flush it for sure.
Posted by: 76-914 Jun 6 2018, 09:26 AM
Andy, thought I'd resurrect this thread in that your headed to WCR18. Did you discover the cause and correct it or was it a lifter or oil viscosity?
Posted by: McMark Jun 6 2018, 10:12 AM
Right before McMark moved his shop. The car hasn't been driven much since though.
Apparently this picture is from 2011....
Way longer ago than I thought. But I don't remember changing the oil after this. But I am 40 now...
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Posted by: SirAndy Jun 6 2018, 10:38 AM
That's a story best be told at night in a parking lot with a cold beer in my hand ...
Posted by: larryM Jun 6 2018, 08:48 PM
helluva lot of voodoo witchcraft ideas above
how about you just see if an electrical connection failed momentarilY since you got psi back again w.o.; any recommended voodoo soluitions applied?
even better - OLD SCHOOL - go get a $20 FLAPS analog gage & attach it temporarily - get instant answer!
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Jun 6 2018, 09:01 PM
FWIW the "old school engine flush" is 1 part kerosene or diesel to 3 parts new oil, run until it gets warm to the touch and drain. Refill with new oil, change oil in 500 miles or 8 hours. This is what a Navy mechanic told me anyway.
Posted by: porschetub Jun 6 2018, 09:48 PM
Come on whats the deal just no info since the issue,fess up 
,don't think its bad oil with viscosity issues unless an injector puked and spat leaking raw fuel into the motor,this isn't a common problem but I don't know these motors much.
Did you have hyd tappet noise previous to shutdown ???.
Tried all those old mothers remedys but atf ,kerosene ,diesel ....good luck on that might have been ok on some old 1960 engine but not in this case.
Hope you get it sorted without $$$$$,good luck Andy.
Posted by: porschetub Jun 6 2018, 10:29 PM
FWIW the "old school engine flush" is 1 part kerosene or diesel to 3 parts new oil, run until it gets warm to the touch and drain. Refill with new oil, change oil in 500 miles or 8 hours. This is what a Navy mechanic told me anyway.
Actually you are correct,diesel is kinda ok ,reminds me when I ran a smaller stern trawler my first job as chief engineer had 2 aux engines to run domestic power and winches,we swapped load every 200 hrs but they had a habit of puking injectors before service time (2K hrs) and the oil dipstick would float up and down in the tube,used to be a mad rush to change duty
.We used to do overhaul them every 45K hours ,the bottom end bearing were always within service hours but replaced anyway.
Anyway rant over .
Posted by: falcor75 Jun 6 2018, 11:11 PM
Just drain the oil and split open the filter. If theres something wrong it wont fix itself and you'll just worry untill you know, an idientified problem is a problem that can be fixed, untill then its just speculation.
Posted by: pcar916 Jun 7 2018, 02:32 PM
Goodness I need to read more posts! My 3.6 did the same thing some years back driving home from a long hard track day, but without that much drama. The valve-noise lasted for about 10 seconds several times. It wasn't all of the valves though, perhaps two of them and my oil pressure was fine.
A few folks thought it was likely the hydraulic valve adjusters and I found that a plausible thing.
Changed the oil, inspected the filter (no metal) and it never returned. I guess it's a good thing Porsche had two oil filters for that engine.
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