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Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 01:08 PM

I am going to pull my engine this week after an embarassing weekend at sears point. Too little horsepower. Can't even keep up with the 944's. I hope to build up my 2.0L into something pretty strong, probably in the 140hp range. I will be keeping the stock FI if I can, but if I can sell the stock FI, maybe I go carbs?

Where should I start? What should I get? I do have a budget, so I want to keep the costs somewhat moderate. Help me out. Thanks!

Terrance

Posted by: URY914 Jul 10 2003, 01:21 PM

go to the the typeIV section of the shoptalkforums.com site or go to Jake's aircooledtechnology.com site for a your questions.

Paul

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 10 2003, 01:28 PM

Paul, you have a big four, yes? what's the spec on your motor and horse power? All I can remember is you have hugely tall velocity stacks. Oh and your car is Tres light weight

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 10 2003, 01:35 PM

Paul,

why would you send him away from here ?? So far all I have seen on STF is a bunch of whining VW guy's and Jake followers.

Terrance what where your lap times ?? . I'll tell you whether you need more power or not.

140 is doable with carbs and a header. It will take a non streetable cam and some good head work... plus a bump in compression (11:1 or so) Get ready for 5.00$ a gallon gas if you expect 140 from a 2.0 engine.

B

Posted by: Qarl Jul 10 2003, 01:45 PM

Are you trying to keep in the 2.0L displacement, or can you go to 2056 ccs and larger?

A lot depends on the organization you race in, the class you want to limit yourself to... blah blah. You know the story.

If you want to stick with the stock FI, then you are going to probably stay with your d-jet cam which has a good power band but is limited in power output. You can safely go to 2056 with D-jet and your cam, but you're not going to get 140 HP.

A lot of your power is going to come from good head work, carbs, cam change, and exhaust.

Questions...

1. What's your budget
2. What's your displacement restrictions
3. Street, track, or both
4. What do you want to keep on your engine and what are you willing to change/let go.

This may help get you some better feedback.

Posted by: Qarl Jul 10 2003, 01:47 PM

Paul has a 1.7 with a big bore (1.9?), racing exhaust and megaphones, carbs, and I think an MSD or some sort of electric ignition.

Sounds bitchin with the stinger removed from the megaphones!

Oh yeah... his car weighs 1500 lbs... so he don't need no stinking big four! Something about power to weight ratio comes to mind.

Pictures are on my website http://www.my914-6.com and click the pictures and the Orlando get together.

His car is grey and red with no windshield!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 10 2003, 01:48 PM

He just built this current engine...


B

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2003, 01:53 PM

Maybe your thinking of building a strong motor from a 2.0, like a stroker 2.3 (2258cc) with 96mm pisons and 78mm rods? Then it would be really easy to make a smooth reliable and streetable engine..

Posted by: Bruce Allert Jul 10 2003, 02:04 PM

I finally found a 2.0. I'd like to bump it up a little but still keep the FI. What can be done for a nominal price? I'm not looking to go more than $500 in mods... less if possible
bruce

Posted by: Qarl Jul 10 2003, 02:06 PM

Bruce... from what I read either European P&Cs (higher compression) or a big bore P&C kit. Then you'll have to tweak the D-jet.

But enough people here have BTDT to tell you what you need to tweak (not me).

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 10 2003, 02:21 PM

Terry, I reckon realistically you will have to ditch the stock FI. Carbs or a fully programmable FI. is the way to go.
If you want to go reasonably inexpensive then 96 B+P, Big carbs and a decent cam will give you a nice power boost and 2056CC's with minimal machining.
J. Raby has loads of engine combo's and there's no reason why you cant copy some of the specs and have reasonable results....
I do think that Raby does hype his products up a little, but he seems to have satisfied customers....Jake followers ? Do I detect a little friction between Brad and Jake?

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 03:06 PM

haha. Brad, I think I did a 2:16 my fastest. yes, I know for a fact that I can find atleast 3 more seconds on the track. Plus it was my first time at sears too. I had major issues entering up to turn 2. Car is literally slowing down going up there. on the warm up lap, I had to drive pretty hard to keep up with the cars! I hope to improve my driving there, and make enough power to get under 2 minutes.

I don't care about streetability. I'm not sure what my budget would be, but I will be doing all the work myself if that matters.

I hope to:

have more compression
Maybe stick with FI, but if I can dump the FI and sell it, and get carbs, I would go carbs. They are very foreign and I know absolutely nothing about them
do some headwork, (where to bring it to?)
Cam
P/C's
valvetrain upgrades (valve springs etc.)

Posted by: nomore4 Jul 10 2003, 03:28 PM

I think Raby uses Headflowmasters for his head work.

www.audiracvws.com

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 10 2003, 03:37 PM

You can get it close to 120hp with the Djet.
96mm pistons-8.5 to 1 compression
Webcam FI cam
Heads- ported
Headers
Dyno shop time to tune the FI
Geoff

Posted by: brant Jul 10 2003, 03:53 PM

Terrance,

depending upon your ultimate goal...

It is cheaper to improve lap times by buying seat time, lessons, and tires than it is to build a 140hp/4

I ran 140hp/4's for about 10 years and learned that my quicker lap times came from skill and style more than a fresh $6,000 motor.

just a thought.
brant

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 04:04 PM

Oh how I've heard that quote so many times.

I need more seat time yes, but the guys I run with are leaving me in the dust regardless of how much speed I can carry. through the esse at sears, no lifting or anything, so I can keep up with the guys in my class, then on to the straight, there is no way to keep up or catch up. I think the way the car is setup now, 2:08's are probably as fast as I can, or someone can get it to go at sears. Guys in my class are a tad under 2:00.

Posted by: brant Jul 10 2003, 04:14 PM

I've never been to sears...
but I've raced against plenty of 944's
they are faster on the straights.... you have to beat them elsewhere.

How about the corner before the straight and before the esses? Can you run that corner in such a way as to be on the gas 1 car length sooner?

I loved the horsepower increase.
I'm not trying to persuade you against it...

Is there any other 914's running? What times?
brant

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 04:53 PM

I know i can definately make up more time at the "hairpin" before the esses and at turn 11(?) before the straights.

The other 914's out there are either super duper wide bodied, 3.0L+ on real race slicks. haha. I want to be the guy who has the 4 banger keeping up, and battling it out with some of the "slower" 911's and 944's. I think another 20+ hp would be pretty good for this car, where i can knock off good times and maybe atleast keep up with the other guys. I got lapped twice, almost by the entire field. hahaha. how embarassing.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 10 2003, 05:26 PM

Here's a couple of nice T4 engines:

http://www.qtm.net/~persoj/mymotor.htm

http://home.att.net/~airdoc/page7t4eng.html

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 10 2003, 05:32 PM

How is your tranny set up?? maybe thats the ticket also.
Geoff

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2003, 05:44 PM

How is your suspension tuned? What kind of tires? brakes? how are YOU mounted in the car? Are you moving around? Do you have harness's? Have you done any lightening? (yaya, the list goes on) My point is have you done all the other stuff..

Edit, I looked at your pics and it appears track worthy, but what are the specs? Maybe if you get your car professionally alighned (I hear it works wonders). Just throwing out some suggestions.

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 05:52 PM

Suspension is pretty good. err, Bilsteins all around, front sway bar (23mm?) rear stock(??) bar, 911 5 lug and brakes all around, 205/45/16 R3S03 Hoosiers, Momo race seat mounted straight to the floor. FG bumpers front and rear. no interior, and also a Fuel safe fuel cell in front trunk.

I haven't done much lightening yet because that is later on in the line. The body work, I will do all at once, FG hood F/R, FG fenders and rear 1/4's.

I have no clue how the tranny is setup. I think the gearing is pretty damn short though. I find myself using all the gears. Should I do a tranny tear down and count teeth?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 10 2003, 05:55 PM

You can swap the gears around to get better ratios. Just switching 5th and 3rd really perks the car up with a four banger. What is the top speed you see on the track?

Geoff

Posted by: Tony C Jul 10 2003, 06:41 PM

20hp does not = 8 seconds, sorry.

-tony

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 10 2003, 07:17 PM

Maybe if he slaps Type R stickers all over the car it will.

Posted by: redshift Jul 10 2003, 07:27 PM

I added those type R stickers (had to look all over town, they are popular!) as per your instructions on the PP BBS, I also bought one of those kits off ebay that makes your car pass gas... err.. something like that, and after placing a Tornado I bought off TV in my airbox, I estimate I have gained 300bhp, at least it 'feels' like it.

I am thinking about using 2 Tornadoes in series.



M

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 07:38 PM

I have no clue what top speeds I am hitting. speedo is wayyy off. 90mph + - 10. haha. I just need some suggestions on what to do with this engine.

Yes Tony, I know 20hp does not = 8 seconds. I think the extra HP would make the car atleast fun to drive. I tried the Type R stickers, they helped me out a little.

Posted by: Jeff Krieger Jul 10 2003, 08:25 PM

Save up your money and buy one of http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/type4/2316/index.html .

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 09:10 PM

I am leaning towards carbs now after some research and feedback. I know absolutely nothing about them, and how to tune and stuff. What to get? I saw these on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2422566232

What about throttle linkages and stuff like that? Would I be able to just purchase some manifolds for carbs and get something else?

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 10 2003, 09:15 PM

Throwing on carbs on a motor that has a stock FI cam will result in less hp.

You probably would do better to get atleast 2 914club stickers to get that 20hp you want (10hp each sticker). I really noticed a difference after I stuck on 4 off them, lots more power plus the car is now a chick magnet!


Geoff

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 10 2003, 09:32 PM

I'm definately going to get a new cam. Probably going to do this first.

cam
carbs
P/C's
headwork

Posted by: cha914 Jul 10 2003, 10:04 PM

Do you have to stay 2.0L for your class or can you go larger?

If I was going to do a race engine, i would do an agressive webcam, carbs 44+ probably (get the CB performance linkage and manifolds - you can get carbs linkage and manifolds for ~600) and carbs are easy, you would be able to get them under control after a few times messing with them.

P/C - depends on size, if I was staying near stock I would probably do birals w/ KB pistons...any bigger than 96 I would go with the Nickies and forged pistons...

Valve train...I would go with the ceramic lifters and other lightweight goodies...try and make that thing spin...

Heads, send 'em out and have them worked over by someone who knows what they are doing...headflowmasters, rimco, I don't know who is in good graces now or not...but have the shop match the rest of your setup with valve sizes etc...

Then have the whole mess balanced...dry sump if you are really serious...and finish it of with a ceramic coated tangerine header...

well...theres my 3cents...feel free to tear it apart...depending on sizes and how high you move the power band I would think you could easily get 140 and maybe more...I have heard about 2.0L engines that make 200hp, but they rev to 8K and need a rebuild pretty often....

course what do I know...I had Jake build my engine...but its not a full race motor...

Tony

Posted by: campbellcj Jul 10 2003, 11:36 PM

You still might have a challenge keeping up with the 944's

With my previous 2.4/four (weber 44's, header, cams, crane cd, etc) I was running very even with Glen Uslan at the Streets of Willow POC events; he's got a 944NA (2.5L) full race prepped car with approx the same mod points that I was running. We both had somewhere between 140-160hp I would guesstimate. Glen is not known for being a really quick driver, but the point is those cars have a modern, good-revving powerplant and fantastic handling, balance and brakes. Rick White also used to be very, very quick in his 924S. Of course he was/is an extremely experienced, smooth driver.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...20-40 more HP doesn't guarantee squat out on the track

Posted by: jkeyzer Jul 10 2003, 11:43 PM

Buy one of Raby's engines and sell me your 2.0.

Or you can try my 1.7 on the track. You will reach a new level of slow.

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 11 2003, 12:25 AM

WoW, thanks for the help. Let's keep this thread alive for more info as I start the parts ordering.

I will need to keep this 2.2L and under to meet class rules. I will be on the search for carbs as my first order of business. So CB Performance has some carbs for $600? Or are you trying to say that I can get some carbs for that price. So what's all this I hear about IDF, IDA, 44's, 48's, 40's. etc.... What should I be looking for? For the cam, do I have to get a cam according to what carbs I am running? If not, I will just pick up a web cam soon just to get started.

As for the headers, how are those "euro" race headers out there? I have seen them and i like them alot. Also the price is right too. I'll make my own muffler, or just not run one.

Posted by: seanery Jul 11 2003, 12:10 PM

Read webcam's info on cams. They give a pretty good description on how the cam will perform. They specify carb or FI cam.

search cams in our club history (go past 30 days) and you will see a discussion and links.

Posted by: seanery Jul 11 2003, 12:12 PM

Here it is:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2112&hl=

Posted by: Jeff Krieger Jul 11 2003, 12:17 PM

Why are you limited to 2.2L when 944s are at least 2.5L? Don't seem fair to me.

Posted by: cha914 Jul 11 2003, 12:46 PM

Cbperformance has the whole kit, new carbs, new manifolds, new linkage for 600...

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=493

I am guessing you will want to go with 44 IDF's...IDA's only come in 48's from what I remember and that is gonna be too big for a 2.2, hell even 44's might be too big, but I run em on my 2056 with good success. Also, if you call CB be sure to tell them what jets you want in the carb as they will change it fromt the standard combo for you if you ask...saves a few bucks later...talk to Baya if you can, she is really good.

Personally, I would find someone to do the head work and/or talk to webcam at the very least and start making a plan for your engine combo...you want everything matched or you could end up with less power than you have now. So, decide on valve sizes, head cc's, compression ratio, what kinda rpm range you want to be in, etc, and that will help you to choose the right cam.

And as far as headers go, I think the euro-race ones are a decent one, just be sure they have the stub pipe design...although if you are in the quest for more power, then you should pony up for the tangerine headers...as they make the most.

good luck,

Tony

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 11 2003, 01:01 PM

I want to keep it under 2.2 to meet PCA rules ( I think that's the rule for what i want to be in.)

Tony, thanks for the tips! I will check with Webcam to or CB perf. to see what they can do for me.

T

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 11 2003, 01:01 PM

[QUOTE=Jeff Krieger,Jul 11 2003, 10:17 AM] [/QUOTE]
Why are you limited to 2.2L when 944s are at least 2.5L? Don't seem fair to me.[/QUOTE]
Fair?....what's that got to do with anything?

Take a look at the SCCA runoffs or SCCA solo II nationals (at Topeka) results. You'll find exactly one Porsche class winner(a 914). It seems odd, considering Porsches racing heritige.

You want fair, buy old British or new Japanese....Oh, they have "special" classes for 'Merican iron, also.
"Fair" is decent for 914s in PCA racin'.....that's about it.

Posted by: Qarl Jul 11 2003, 01:17 PM

L8apex...

Don't rush anything.

Plan out your entire engine from cams to induction, to head mods etc. For reliable HP, every component needs to be matched to other components to achieve the best result.

The head work will really be dictated by your intake, cams, and exhaust flow. Once you determine which cam you want, what type of carb set up you are running, and the exhaust choices... then you can talk to your head guys and make sure your heads flow properly to match the rest of the components. A lot of power can be found in the heads. Even Bruce Anderson states that in his 911 book.

There is also lots of fun and power to be found in balancing everything. Have your P&Cs balanced in to a gram or fraction of a gram of each other.

Have the crank weight balanced. Lighter weight springs, and lifters, and flywheel mods can all add to a freely spinning responsive motor.

Spend money on head work... port and polish, correct size valves for your motor combo, etc.

I would think that something like 100mm P&Cs (spring for Birals or Nikkies), 44 or 48mm carbs, a beefier carb friendly cam like a Webcam 86a or 86b, balance and blueprinting work, minor weight reduction in the flywheel, strong springs, lighter lifters, a good cooling system (air cooling or oil cooling), and a Tangerine Racing header/exhaust combo and you will be rocking!

Talk to Raby... dig in his website a little. There is lots of valuable info there.

Put together an engine on paper and shoot it by the list for critique.

Regards,

Posted by: DNHunt Jul 11 2003, 04:11 PM

I'm checking into some of this now. It sure seems there's 3 variables power, durability, and money. If you want both of the first 2 you need plenty of the last 1. If you don't want to spend the money you won't get a lot of the other 2. I can certainly say it's going to take a while to make up my mind.

No matter what there are always going to be compromises. I just saw where LN Engineering is going to market head that cost $2500 a pair. They claim they will make a lot of power but where does it stop. This keeps up the 911 guys won't be thinking of us as the poor relatives from the other side of the tracks. What fun would that be?. We wouldn't have anyone to flip off.

Dave

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 11 2003, 04:15 PM

Yep.. convert the car to a six.

Why spend 7k on a 4cyl ?? You still have a 4cyl. when the day is over.

People are starting to give away the early 6cyl engines...


B

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 11 2003, 04:27 PM

yeah, the 6 conversion is definately one of the choices. Which would I get? I saw some awsome prices on some early 6's. What do you think of a 2.4? Then I will need to look into other stuff for the conversion, ie, oil tank and stuff like that. I asume a carbed 6 would be the easiest conversion than a FI. Where should I start looking for some good condition 6's? I've seen some 2.4's sell for around $1500.

Posted by: DNHunt Jul 11 2003, 04:31 PM

How do you explain stubborn. My car was made a four it'll rust away as a four. Hey I drive a 914, I'm different. I like challenges. It looks like it will be interesting. I want to buid an engine with my son. I think I can build a four, but not a six. Hell I don't know. Maybe I'm an idiot, well probably. So, what's new, except I'll have one more unique experience with my 914.

Dave, I think I've gone over the edge

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 11 2003, 04:33 PM

Play your cards correctly and you can convert a 4cyl car to 6 for under 5k. When you see a deal on parts.. you have to have the money to JUMP.

I would run injection if it was working correctly when the engine came out of the car...

You told us earlier that you had to stay in 2.2 range... which is it and what group do you want to run with ??


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 11 2003, 04:38 PM

Nothing wrong with the fours... I just know what group he is trying to run with and a 4 wont do it unless its a grenade waiting to happen. I have spent a lot of time around 185-190 hp 1.8 liter race engines that spin 8k RPM with stock cranks. After building that 10K race engine.. you now have to gear the car for 8K RPM.

I also know he has an uncle that will supply him with a good 6cyl engine if he whines enough.

Oh..and about the "Jake Followers" earlier.. we get along fine and I send business to him every chance I get. I just dont believe in the large displacement engines for 914's... convert it to a 6 and stand a chance of recovering your investment.


B

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 11 2003, 04:48 PM

Jeff, 944's are 900 pounds more than us.. and the N/a's have about as much cheep hp gain as we do.. On the auto x, we have the advantage, on the track, they do (especially the turbo's)

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 11 2003, 05:10 PM

I will whine as much as I can

But I may just have to fork out my own funds. Must sell girl friend(s) first. I think it will be good experience for me to build a 4 to keep up just in my class and work more on my driving. The later on in the future, I will do a 6. (Maybe like a few years)

I'll think about it and check on my budget.

Posted by: campbellcj Jul 11 2003, 11:20 PM

The comment about always being ready to jump on -6 conversion parts is definitely true...for example I got a NOS factory oil tank for $400 and a bulkhead engine mount (including 911 sport motor mounts) for $300.

No matter what kind of deal you get on the engine, though, it seems like you have to "bend over" a bit on certain stuff i.e. induction (carbs/FI) and oil lines & cooling setup, if you want a car that really works well and is reliable. You don't wanna just drop in somebody's cast-off 70 911T motor with carbs that haven't been rebuilt since bell bottom jeans were brand new.

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 12 2003, 02:19 PM

With my budget, I have settled on building the 4 for now. Work on some driving, and we'll see how I'll do.

What size pistons to get to make it around the 2.2L range?

Posted by: cgnj Jul 12 2003, 05:21 PM

Hi,
76x96
Based on building my 2270, you may not have to clear the case or rods. Use the CB super race rods rods. They are smaller on the big end than the Scat Rods. (I used Scat, I gleaned the CB Rod tidbit at STF b4 search went down and after I bought mine)
76 mm cw crank is $450 at aircooled
Rods about $270
Reduced base circle cam $165
KB pistons $250
I spent $1200 on my heads.
Eat exhaust fumes and save for a six.

Carlos

76 2270 'I could have had a flat 6'
76 project

Posted by: URY914 Jul 12 2003, 06:04 PM

CGNJ,

So you think you wouldn't need to clearance the rods and case if you went with the CB rods?

From reading the STF posts and the amount of clearacing everyone says is needed am planning on building a 2056.
The 2056 and the 2270 are about the same money but from what I read it is all the machining that make the 2270 more work to build.

Did you build your engine yourself?
Would you build the 2270 again?

Paul

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 12 2003, 06:06 PM

Hum..

I have 2 2270 engines with NO clearancing. Both of them have Carrillo rods and one piece counter weighted cranks.



B

Posted by: URY914 Jul 12 2003, 06:10 PM

Damn, now I'm back to a 2270...

But who as a grand for Carrillo rods?

Paul

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 12 2003, 06:12 PM

I think the 2270 would ideal for your car.

I think the rods where 600$. Not cheap..but I'm betting the CB rods are identical to the Carrillo's.


B

Posted by: URY914 Jul 12 2003, 06:25 PM

BTW,
I've had to revise some of my fiberglass work. The pieces I added to the front fenders to keep the rocks that come off the front tires were a problem. When the wheels where cranked over to full lock the tires rubbed on the them. And I had to cut and pull out the fenders as the tires also rubbed on the lip.

I've also decided to make the drivers door/rocker/front fender one piece like the right side. I found it easier to just step over the door to get in. I'll dzus it so it will be easy to take off when I need to.
Also making a cowling to cover the passenger seat area. You know, for those dry lake runs. Lower Cd=mph.

Paul

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 12 2003, 08:04 PM

What's with http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=160

I am still pretty lost when it comes to these engines. This looks like a good deal, along with getting the CB 44 IDF carbs and the webcam. How would I go about raising the compression? Just get the heads decked?

Posted by: URY914 Jul 12 2003, 10:28 PM

I think thats a type 1 kit.
Won't work.

Posted by: my15window Jul 12 2003, 11:10 PM

I'm from O.C.Cal, home of most all the aircooled scene I come from the V.W. side,big motor bus ,Big motor oval window, big motor 914 then throw on the biggest webers around, the sand guys doing the turbo uprights T4s you guys allways talk about resale value? hell It"s a money hole like the rest,why the worry about EFI unless it's C.B.s 1700$ unit? damn build it Big! build it good,drive it hard who cares if you need to freshin it up after 20,000 miles? 90% of us use them for a 2nd or 3rd car anyways Jake Raby"s got the right attitude about type 4s i

Posted by: cha914 Jul 12 2003, 11:17 PM

You should probably go hang out at www.shoptalkforums.com (type4rum) and read some of their back posts on this kinda thing...and/or bug Brad some more...STF is where I learned a good deal about these T4 engines a while back...

also, not that I am pushing you to Jake again, but you should at least read through his engine descriptions as they will give you an idea of what to start looking for...here is a link to his 2270 engine kit: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/type4/2270/kit-spec.html

good luck and just keep asking questions...

Tony

Posted by: cgnj Jul 13 2003, 07:27 AM

Paul.
Building it myself with my 13 year old son. (he probably has dreams of torque wrenchs chasing him).
Would I do it again? Qualified yes. If my car had been fuel injected, I would have just done 2055. I already had a set of Dellorto 45's and no FI parts for my car, but I would do it differently.
I would try Demello or DPR for the crank. Save about $200
I'd use KB 96's instead of JE. Another $200. These weren't available in stoker pin locations with 22mm pins when I started.

I cleared my rods individually, off of the crank. Today I would just clear one on the crank (#2 or #4) and take them to the machined to match. Ended up doing that anyway, just wasted a whole lot of time.

I used the Shadek pump. It cost $130 to machine it to work. Raby sells a type 1 pump ready to go.

Would I build another one? No. Project will have a six.

If it's being stoked, your'll need spacers just to keep the pistons in the jugs.

Carlos
76 2270 'it's almost ready'
76 Project

Posted by: DNHunt Jul 13 2003, 07:40 AM

Carlos

How did it go with your son? One of the main reasons I want to do this is to involve him. If all goes as planned he will be 14 when we build an engine. I realize he will get tired or bored before I do and that it will be a test of my patience to say "Ok son , that's enough for tonight". Did he stay interested in it or did it just go on too long? Did he learn anything? It sounds like he was on the business end of the wrenches. Did he feel any pride in the project?

Dave

Posted by: anthony Jul 13 2003, 02:01 PM

I think it would depend a lot on your kid's temperment. At that age I was always building something - model airplanes, wood working, whatever. I loved wood shop and metal shop. I would have loved to build an engine with my dad.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 13 2003, 02:22 PM

Blair has hung around me while I worked on cars since he was little. He alway was willing to hand me tools learning their names and what they are used for. Watched me build a big block 390 ci for my old truck and rebuild the 914. He bought the RX7 from me after I rebuilt that car then started modifing it. Next thing he was learning how to pull transmissons and engines, how to have a custom driveshaft made etc... He was always asking why are you doing that? I always told him why I was doing something, the order of taking things apart or putting them back together. Now he is not afraid to take anything apart and its fun.
Teach em how to clean parts, use tools and think- all very important lessons.

Geoff

Posted by: Bruce Allert Jul 13 2003, 08:27 PM

Wow! you guys are cool.... Wished my Dad would've done that with me. (Actually, I guess he did, now that I think about it.)
He is/was an upholsterer (retired). I learned (partially)furniture, auto & boat upholstery. Worked with him off & on for most of my growing up years. I'd still be with him or have his shop if his temper hadn't gotten in the way and my rebellious attitude didn't flare
Oh well, at least we still love each other
bruce

Posted by: Rouser Jul 14 2003, 09:04 PM

In 1972, my "father" (he ceased being my "Pops" after THIS stunt!) drags home my friend's '62 Bug (with '64 40HP engine) for $50, with a knocking engine sound that caused it to be parked for a few weeks. "Just tear it down and find out what's wrong with it, and you'll have a car for your senior year." I'm wondering what the HELL happened to a '69 Chevelle 396, or a '68 Z-28 302, like some of the OTHER guys I would see were driving. This man disgusted me.

We dropped the engine, tore it apart, and found the crank "all ruint" (my observation) and #3 rod shot. My "father" (who worked for Pan American Airways out of JFK in NYC) grabbed the crank and said, "I can get this fixed." Damn him. He had the bad journal built back up/replated and the whole thing cut 20-over and polished for oversized bearings. Bought one (1) rod (cheap SOB) and had the whole set shot-pee-peened and magna-tisement-fluxed (I was upset, remember?). Grabbed the other bits & pieces (pistons, lifters, rockers, etc) and had them x-ray inspected (no damn cracks) and quick-cryo'd ("Drop a building on these, kid; they won't break."). His VW/German repair shop friend rebuilt the heads while WE mahogany-verneered his wife's kitchen cabinets. I hate you.

I & HIM! meticulously assembled that VW aircruddy engine, using the cylinders/jugs he had me cross-thatch with glycol and a hand-drill-mounted stone (looked like a wisk broom with his balls attached!). The only items he would bow to was a Holley Bug-Spray carb & manifold, and some Appliance headers & muffler (I wanted some SOUND & PERFORMANCE, Dammit!). A new clutch ("Pressure plate checked out good." Mr. Cheep-o) and resurfaced flywheel (Mr. VW Shop, remember?), back in, 2-3 cranks, it starts, set the timing & idle/mixture, idles @ 750 RPM, and I can blat out specs to an impressed "father."

Pulled the SAME blasted stunt with my kid brother ("This 411 only needs some TLC and 2 Weber carbs installed after we pull out that burned-up FI after the engine fire, that's all!). This hatred carried over into adult life and kids of our own ... Oh, Hell, my brother & I bought the $2.5K 52" TV Pop's been salivating over and had it delivered on his birthday. All with a promise he stop spoiling the grandkids, dammit.

Posted by: anthony Jul 15 2003, 01:11 AM

Consider yourself lucky you got the bug! At least they are somewhat cool and I'm sure the chicks liked a bug. Your poor brother. No girl, I'm sure, would be caught dead in a 411.

Posted by: Rouser Jul 15 2003, 05:54 PM

Actually, he did pretty good.

Since he wasn't busy sinking every penny he earned into superfulous speed parts ("I just GOT to get those chrome valve/timing chain/master cylinder/air cleaner covers for my Camaro NOW!"), and his car went for weeks on a full tank, he had $$ left over to take the other guys' ladies out to dinner & a movie!

Posted by: DNHunt Jul 15 2003, 08:22 PM

Rouser

I was worried there but I quess I'm safe cause one of these engines is gonna take all my pennies. There won't be any left over to take other guy's ladies out.

Posted by: Qarl Jul 16 2003, 08:44 AM

L8Apex:

1300 views and 70 replies later.... what have you concluded?

Do you have a motor plan yet? Please share with us your thoughts!

Regards,

Karl Ellzey

Posted by: L8Apex Jul 16 2003, 03:53 PM

haha! damn, I am very very stumped. I was thinking of converting to carbs and putting a new cam in and new p/c's. but I have these cool visions of a nice 2.4-6 conversion in my dreams the past few days! arg! a 6 would be a great conversion to do if I can get one for an excellent price.