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Posted by: 98101 Mar 15 2018, 11:47 PM

Last week Rich/914werke spotted the first evidence of significant rust on this car, in the usual area under the battery tray. I know further exploration is needed, but I'm interested in your guesses whether it's something I should deal with immediately, or wait until next winter.

Related question: Does replacing the passenger side long, etc. usually mean wrecking the interior and paint?



Passenger door closes, but droops a little when not latched.

Posted by: mepstein Mar 16 2018, 03:50 AM

I would be more concerned with the suspension consoles. Does the rear passenger wheel lean in at the top more than the driver side?

Posted by: Coondog Mar 16 2018, 04:28 AM

Posted by: gothspeed Mar 16 2018, 08:22 AM

Mine was similar. Most of what rotted away is the thin sheet metal on top. Get a mirror and flash light and inspect the inner and outer long reinforcements behind/inside the thinner sheet metal.

Try to cover the hole in red, even temporarily. As that hole will allow hot air from under the engine to get sucked into the cooling fan. Maybe use that ground stud to hold the temporary cover in place.

The door looks more like hinge area sagging or bent. If the misalignment was caused by the corrosion or long structural compromise, it would diminish the door gap as well.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GregAmy Mar 16 2018, 08:25 AM

I'm living in a...
Hell Hole!
Don't want to stay in this...
Hell Hole!
Don't want to die in this..
Hell Hole!
Girl, get me out of this...Hell Hole!

Posted by: Chris H. Mar 16 2018, 09:05 AM

I would look under the passenger side rocker panel and see what the damage is. How does the underside of the long look?

Posted by: mbseto Mar 16 2018, 10:56 AM

Measure the door gaps, then put a hefty guy (or girl) in the passenger seat and measure again. You'll get some idea of the structural integrity without needing to cut it open.

Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 16 2018, 11:18 AM

Consider posting a 'want to share garage/shop space' thread. You might find someone in the Seattle area. The engine will have to be removed for the rust repairs. Upside is you can address engine issues at that time. 914werke should be able to let you know what you need from Restoration Design. Time to get your hands dirty and stop the 'bleeding'

Posted by: malcolm2 Mar 16 2018, 11:23 AM

it is not what you see, it is what you don't see. Once the acid from the battery has made a hole, the acid goes deeper and does it's thing inside the structure.

mbseto's idea will give you a way to measure. Another similar measurement is to put the heavy person in the car with the top off. See if they can open the passenger side door.

You are putting off the evitable. Bite the bullet and dig in. Are you doing the repair or paying to do the repair?

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 16 2018, 11:25 AM

drive it and have fun, repair in the winter, not that bad as long as you have a battery tray



by the way, I do not like "hell" and "914" in the same sentence, maybe we can all change that expression to "rust in the battery area" How about it?

Posted by: bbrock Mar 16 2018, 11:28 AM

A surprising amount of this work can be done without wrecking the interior or exterior appearance. Where it becomes a problem is if you have to repair the outer long/inner wheel house area aft of the jack pyramids. Access to that area is poor without removing a section of the rear quarter panel.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 16 2018, 11:48 AM

Thanks for all this help. Any heavy people in the Seattle area want to volunteer for the test?

Most likely 914werke/Rich would be doing the repair. But I'm enjoying driving the car now that the weather is getting nice, and wondering whether it would be OK to wait until next winter.

Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 16 2018, 11:58 AM

Forgot. Drive it. Rich is a big guy. About the right weight for the 'butt test'. Surprised it was not performed when you were at his place. If no one has been under the car for a close assessment now would be the time.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 16 2018, 01:41 PM

We didn’t have time to do anything but the door locks since the sun was already setting by the time I got away from family activities. I’m working with him on scheduling another visit. I’m sure we will inspect the suspension.

A non-914 mechanic and I inspected the car from below on a lift, and it was seen again at Gerber Motorsport in Magnolia. I guess we missed this. I’m not too upset... just reluctant to take the car off the road for lengthy rustoration when it’s finally sunny enough to enjoy it. I already waited weeks while it sat at Chris’s German Auto (who never got around to doing anything on it) ... so eager to enjoy the car a bit.

Despite the air leak the engine stays cool (actually too cool). I’m guessing the Seattle weather and front oil cooler has something to do with this.

Posted by: KELTY360 Mar 16 2018, 02:11 PM

Revisionist history. It's been called Hell Hole for a good reason...for decades! This is the same semantical diversion as those who deny the NARP label from the early days. I was there, it was real.

BTW Michael, drive it till the weather turns again; unless the butt test is really bad.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 16 2018, 02:19 PM

I just watched Spinal Tap with the actors' commentary (added many years later) enabled. The commentary seemed to be entirely improvised. Those guys are at least as funny now as they were in the original movie.

How much more black could my car be? The answer is "None. None more black."

Posted by: rdauenhauer Mar 16 2018, 02:55 PM

Posted by: Chris H. Mar 16 2018, 03:12 PM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 16 2018, 03:37 PM

Hate to say it but, by looking at that door, there's much more than just hell hole patching going on here.

Posted by: Rand Mar 16 2018, 03:56 PM

Eric beat me to the punch. That passenger door gap is WAY beyond the big butt test, it's clearly obvious there are *serious* structure problems.

My first 914 was like this. The only way I would keep driving it before doing a proper repair was a temporary brace. I jacked up under the firewall until it was lined up, welded in a brace between the rear shock tower and part way down the long. That gave me enough confidence to drive it before getting the the real fix it really needs.

That thing is going to be an artichoke. The more leaves you pull away, the more rust and problems you will find. I hope you are as happy doing fabrication work as I was.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 16 2018, 05:45 PM

I do like other aspects of the car. The motor is running nicely now, it’s got a front oil cooler, I’ve got a rebuilt transmission and linkage on the way, etc. How bad would it have to be before you’d advise scrapping it and starting over with another tub?

Posted by: MarkV Mar 16 2018, 07:21 PM

Not enough information to say for sure that your car has serious rot problems. The hell hole doesn't look that bad to me. Mine was worse than that and my longs are rust free and pristine. Hopefully the door issue is just a wonky door hinge. Pull the passenger side valence off to see if there is rust along the long or at the jack point.

Posted by: smokey Mar 16 2018, 08:02 PM

Rick

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 16 2018, 08:09 PM

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=16748

Posted by: MarkV Mar 16 2018, 08:14 PM

Never ask for advice on a car board. The answer is always you are screwed and need a new car. HaHa

Posted by: Rand Mar 17 2018, 08:25 PM

Funny, but I disagree 100% around here. You'll get a lot of good advice because there are people here who understand these cars inside and out. There's nothing new when it comes to the rust problems in 914s.

I would way rather be told the truth than have somebody gloss over it without understanding how dangerous that car can be and tell me to just drive it.

We can't diagnose this 100% without analyzing it in person, but those pics combined with our experience can tell a heck of a lot. That car needs immediate attention. Ignore and drive it like it is, and you may end up in a much worse place.

I totally get wanting to drive it. Like I said, my first 914 was like this and I needed to drive it. So I put temporary braces in after lining up the gaps and getting things straight. At least then I didn't have to worry about things getting worse before I could repair it right.

Like was mentioned previously, you need to look at the suspension console and the rest of the places that rust causes catastrophic damage to. You don't want to carve a hard corner and have something give way because the rot couldn't handle the stress.

Posted by: amfab Mar 17 2018, 09:44 PM

"...Folks lend a hand in a Hell Hole"

Posted by: rjames Mar 18 2018, 12:27 AM

Based on that picture of the door gap alone I wouldn’t drive it.

Posted by: Andyrew Mar 18 2018, 12:34 AM

We need some more pics before making judgement. Specifically of the lower long, the rear suspension ears (Both please) from the outside and on the inside (looking for cracks).

It could be a solid(ish) chassis that was rusted and then in an accident, or someone welded long stiffeners and screwed up the gaps.

Posted by: 914werke Mar 18 2018, 12:52 AM

We will be looking at the state of things in more depth very soon.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 18 2018, 01:09 AM

Thank you all for the advice. We'll be digging into this within a couple weeks and could post photos of what we find on this thread.

I'm undecided what I would do if the cancer is malignant since I'm enjoying the torquey 2366 motor (even with its incorrect cam), the fabric seats, the bizarre array of gauges, the Australian wheels, the slightly lowered stance, etc.

Posted by: GregAmy Mar 18 2018, 06:37 AM

Posted by: MarkV Mar 18 2018, 10:48 AM

I knew where you could get a pristine tub but it recently sold for over $90,000.



Hopefully it isn't damaged so bad that it cant be fixed. In my humble opinion the rot in the hell hole doesn't look bad enough for the rot below to be horrible. I could be wrong. Doesn't take much to look underneath and do some poking around with the tip of a screwdriver to figure out how bad it is.

Besides, it just adds excitement to driving when you know that your passenger side rear wheel could pass you on a tight corner while going too fast.

Posted by: era vulgaris Mar 18 2018, 01:38 PM

By the comment, I'm assuming the door is open in this pic, yes?
If the door is actually open in this pic, there's no way to know what the door gap actually looks like. Depending on how steep an angle the pic was taken, a slightly open door could look like a super wonky door gap.
Before we terrify this guy into thinking he's bought a rust bomb, let's see a pic of the door gap, the entire gap from top to bottom, with the door fully closed.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 18 2018, 02:47 PM

Yes, previous photo was door slightly open. Here it is with door closed (and roof off):

Posted by: MarkV Mar 18 2018, 02:59 PM

Nice!

Looks like original color was yellow maybe. Everyone knows yellow cars are faster.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 18 2018, 03:04 PM

In Tucson I'd restore it back to yellow right away. Here I need the most heat-absorbant color I can get.

Rich noticed that the rocker panels are fiberglass. I can't work on cars where I am so we'll pull them off at his place in a couple weeks.

Posted by: MarkV Mar 18 2018, 10:54 PM

Something about a black on a 914 that is really good looking. I had a police officer comment on my black 74 as he was writing me a speeding ticket. He said it was a "handsome car".... I guess that is a compliment.

Based on those door gaps I don't think its going to fold in on itself anytime soon.

Posted by: malcolm2 Mar 19 2018, 07:19 AM

I found this on the hell hole link above. I think, unless the car is broken in half, someone will want to fix it.

Soon the same will be said about your car....

Posted by: mbseto Mar 19 2018, 12:54 PM

No one pulls any punches around here, but when/if you start a build thread, the support is awesome. You feel like everyone is on your side.

Posted by: mbseto Mar 19 2018, 12:56 PM

Knowing whether or not the door was ajar in that first pic makes a difference. I think a bunch of people assumed that's what it looked like when closed. I'd post the same photos you just recently posted with a person sitting in the passenger seat...

Posted by: burton73 Mar 19 2018, 03:08 PM

When I sold my 76 914 to Dax in Belgium a couple of months ago, I send a video of my car jacked up from the standard jacking post on the right side opening and closing the door with the right side of car off the ground. That is proof of a strong car without rust with stock parts in place. No need for a heavy guy. See how much the car flexes.

Bob B

Posted by: Rand Mar 19 2018, 03:37 PM

Posted by: bbrock Mar 19 2018, 03:42 PM

From one of the old Mid-Engined Views:

Posted by: MarkV Mar 19 2018, 03:47 PM

You could just pull the passenger side valance off and look at the condition of the jack point and long. Seems more scientific to me.

Posted by: Edward Blume Mar 19 2018, 05:30 PM

I meet her each weekday, each velvety cheek day, you know what I mean...

Posted by: Edward Blume Mar 19 2018, 05:36 PM

Dad's car was way worse but that doesn't mean anything. Pull the rockers, look hard at the dog ears, etc.

It doesn't look that bad, but these cars can fool you. Just make sure its safe and then enjoy. If you're not sure, take it to a body shop and have them evaluate it.

I bought a rusty rocket and turned it into an AX car. Nothing lined up after welding in a roll bar but it was solid after 3 paint jobs and moving the battery to the rear trunk.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 30 2018, 05:54 PM

As promised, pics of what Rich/914werke found during the passenger side rust inspection. All photos from the passenger side. We did not inspect the driver side.

In the wheel housing, some kind of foam seems to have been used to cover a gap left by a sloppy weld. I'm guessing the intent was to prevent further water incursion from the road and wheel. Has anyone ever seen this before?




Also other rust holes in nearby sheet metal that didn't show up properly in photos.


We discovered the jacking point had been repaired at some point, but we didn't find any obvious deterioration.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 30 2018, 06:08 PM

There was no visible rust at the suspension console.

As noted earlier in the thread, the passenger door doesn't close as nicely as the driver door because it sags a bit. I put my finger over the top door gap while Rich lowered the car from the jack, and I was able to feel the gap tighten by maybe a millimeter or two.

We measured the top and bottom door gaps with the passenger seat empty, and then with Rich sitting in it. I was not able to detect any difference.

I'm guessing that the car is OK to drive this summer, and rust repairs to the wheel housing and passenger side long can wait until the driving weather is over? Please let me know your opinions.

Top door gap, empty passenger seat.


Top door gap, passenger seat occupied.


Lower door gap, empty passenger seat.


Lower door gap, passenger seat occupied.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 30 2018, 06:18 PM

There is some rust in the rear trunk, and some holes below the trunk release mechanism. Since my car has the rear reflector instead of a trunk release button, and the pull-cable release mechanism isn't 100% reliable, possibly someone made those holes to get the damn trunk open, and water leaked in to cause the rust?

Also noticed the rear trunk section was a orange, instead of yellow (my car's original color), suggesting repair to rear end damage.

While I'd like to fix that trunk rust eventually, I'm guessing it should be lower on the list than the potential structural issues on the passenger side. But let me know your opinions please.

Posted by: bbrock Mar 30 2018, 06:35 PM

I'd drive it.

They all like to rust back there on the trunk and it's possible yours was already replaced for that reason once. The donor piece might have already been heading that way when it went in. I think you could treat it with rust converter and paint to hold you over until a proper repair could be made. Might want to figure out where the water is getting in and stop it. I'm sure smarter people will give better advice, but trust me, it could be a lot worse

Posted by: MarkV Mar 30 2018, 09:49 PM

That's not bad at all. Looks like the jack points were starting to rust and someone made repair pieces for the lower half of them. I think I would clean those up real good and prime and paint them. The piece behind the battery tray is available... I had to replace it on mine.... think its called upper wheel house. The hell hole could be repaired by plating the top of it. It looks like maybe the engine shelf is okay.

Posted by: 98101 Mar 31 2018, 10:35 AM

In case the wheel house and related parts turn out to be worse than they look from the outside, it seems a reasonable chance we'd have to cut the exterior sheet metal and mess up the paint. The current paint is shiny but not well applied over the original yellow, and already flaking off in places.

Posted by: MarkV Mar 31 2018, 11:32 AM

The wheelhouse shouldn't be a problem to fix without messing with outer body panels. Painting the repair from the inner fender side was difficult but your car is black and you could use a spray can to get in there.






Its really hard to do a color change without completely dismantling a car. To prep the paint and get it to stick on inner parts with limited access without removing everything is impossible. It doesn't look like its flaking on the outer body panels. You could just touch up the places where it has flaked off.

Posted by: 98101 Apr 1 2018, 10:47 AM

I'm curious about this strange foam material we found. It was about as heavy as styrofoam.

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 1 2018, 10:52 AM

Insulation/gap filler in a spray can.

Posted by: bbrock Apr 1 2018, 11:21 AM

And a really bad choice for that application because if the skin is broken like it is there, it holds water like a sponge.

Posted by: 98101 Apr 4 2018, 02:30 AM

Maybe it's this stuff?
https://youtu.be/TZ7k_DzpDBM?t=2m53s
"This is obviously not the best way to do this, but if you don't know how to weld, it'll work. I mean, for at least a couple years. So ...."

Even though the rust doesn't seem as bad as some of the predictions, finding this foam has me a bit worried that the other metal repairs may not have been done properly.

Posted by: bbrock Apr 4 2018, 08:12 AM

Yep. The most common brand I've seen it sold under is Great Stuff. That guy has a follow-up video with a totally lame "test" claiming it will not absorb water. I use this stuff a lot for what it is intended for, but also for building backgrounds in frog terrariums (yes, I know that's weird). Trust me, it DOES absorb moisture once you cut that skin that forms as it cures, or after UV light deteriorates the outer layer. I've wrung water out of it like a sponge after it has been sitting in a high moisture environment for months. It's basically the same stuff the factory sprayed in the sail panels that makes them rust. So yeah, I'd want to revisit previous repairs to make sure they are done right, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Enjoy driving it for the summer.

Posted by: Andyrew Apr 4 2018, 12:40 PM

Drive it and fix it while you gather the parts. Try to improve the gaps when your working on it, but it looks like a great drivers car. Better than 50% of the cars out there not in california..

Posted by: pilothyer Apr 4 2018, 09:13 PM

Keep driving it for now, but as always, expect much worse than you had expected
once you start grinding and finding.