I'm back in the 914 world after more than 35 years!
I am the lucky winner of The car known as the Screamcicle and probably several other names.
It was originally built by Bill who frequented this forum.
Then bought by Paul who also was a 914 world member improved and refined this 550hp monster.
Unfortunate events left the front end damaged and in need of extensive repair.
Paul didn't want the car parted out, rather he wanted it to be purchased by someone who would bring it back to it's most recent glorious state.
Enter me... I had just sold my hit rod El Camino and finally the timing was right. Andrew sent me a note as he knew I was looking for a project. And a Hot rod 914 fit the profile. A lightweight classic car that could be autocrossed, track driven, and maybe a trip to taco Bell.
My previous 914 was a 1971 1.7 with Monza exhaust, Weber carbs, and Rivera wheels. This will be a big change. Fortunately I will have been buffered into the outlaw world by Andyrew's build over the last 15+ years. Quite excited to have Son/Father outlaw widebodys.
Many of you know that the car was on the east coast and I live on the west coast. It was picked up yesterday but the transportation company. Paul was a great help accommodateing the driver and reassuring that it would tranport just fine. I wish this company had tracking but at least this way I won't be watching it's every move as I wait the 7-10 days going coast to coast.
If you see a white 914 on a red auto transport truck. Please let me know!
I'll ad to this thread more later,. But here's a teaser picture.
Thanks Mike,. It'll be a challenge and I'll need help , but it'll get done.
Saw this car at Hershey a few years ago. Hell of a nice car.
TORQUE-o-holic this car is.
Happy you got it
Enjoy the journey. Please keep us posted on the rebuild of it.
That's great that you've got this monster in your hands now! And welcome back... Andrew and I talked a little over 3 years ago about our projects at the 2015 WCR. He's finished his while I went through some major setbacks but I'm still working on it. It'll be good to see your progress and will be a boost to my motivation as well. I'm looking forward to seeing these father/son Outlaws at the next WCR if that's what your goal is - She's in great hands!
Bill and I ran down to the Rocket City Ramble.
Hi Dan, congrats...this will be a great project. Is this a real 1974 LE car? Please post or PM me the VIN.
Great project, that is one seriously cool car.
Clay,. Thanks,. That was one of my decision factors,. A lot of people saw it and liked it enough to give a people's award.
Bob, thanks, I will be posting updates.
MGP. Andrew and I will motivate each other as well. I definitely want to park / drive these side by side.
Rick,. I was reading the old posts and saw that. I d
Had and will have lots of time to do research.
Jeff. I think they are calling it a tribute car, but I'll get you the VIN anyways.
One more picture of what it looked like in it's prime then we'll get to the current situation.
Cool looking car - must be fairly frightening with that power/weight. Congrats and looking forward to your repair/build updates.
Here's a pic of Paul at the Meadowlands in 2011 on the day we co-drove the car in an autocross, right after Hershey I think.
I made some changes to the suspension for Paul based on the experience.
Congratulations Dan. That is a terrific car ad I look forward to seeing it repaired and back on the road.
Holy cow Dan! You are coming back in style my friend. That car is Bad ass. I hope you put it back just like it was. I LOVE the look of that car. Then the build is just awesome. Plus your even close enough for me to come check it out sometime. Can't wait to see your progress
Thanks guys .
Jamie and all, the plan is to go back with the Sheridan bodywork.
Andrew and I just spent some time taking measurements. I'll be able to see how far off the white one is compared to his orange one. Its far from exact but it will give me some idea.
Thanks for.the picture. I might try my had drifting
To say I am excited is an understatement
We have been strategizing this for a while now and have a decent plan of attack. I'll let Dad post on that but how he does the repair will be VERY interesting to watch. Unfortunately I wont be able to help much due to location...
This is going to be a VERY long couple weeks waiting for it to show up
Im already bench racing in my head... Loosing.... But still bench racing
Sounds like the next Workshop Day should be at Dan's?
Looking forward to watching. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help out.
What is your take on how to redo your car?
Transplant all the goodies in a new body or get a body shop to rework the body on this one?
Or are you a guy with mad skill sets like we have seen here?
That's my guess to how it's actually going to go down
i think i saw this car at okteenerfest 4 years ago in Townsend TN, and he lost the clutch on the first day!
really nice to see it reacquired by someone who can get her back on the road! good luck with the restoration/rehab.
Are there pics from the front?
A thread I missed?
Is Paul OK?
I hope the magic gas can survived!!!
Congrats on a great looking car. Looks like a fun project.
Congratsulations on your purchase, I had just PM the previous owner about buying the engine, my loss I should of just bought the car! IF you loose interest in the rebuild let me know, I would love to take it off your hands!
I remember standing next to this car when it was on a chassis dyno up the street from my shop right after a camshaft change (to de-tune it slightly) and new crank/rod bearings.
I watched the 180mph speedo get buried with the left rear wheel no more than 2 feet from my right leg.
Here's a teaser of the current condition. Yes Paul is ok. Probably a bit heartbroken I know I was when I did similar work to my BMW.
The 914 sustained front end damage. But fortunately the really important stuff is fine. Even the radiator looks ok.
I'll post more when it's in my hands. Keep a look out for a red truck car carrier doing the cross country bit. Let me know if you see it!
............ looks like it might by fast
longest 13 days of my life...
longest 13 days of my life...
Thanks for saving this car!
Here is the link to Bills Thread...
And you can search for his other threads...
11.2 in the Qtr mile...
Well, I removed the torqued fiberglass front trunk lid and turned up the torsion bar on the drivers side which was completely backed off and suddenly it's not looking too bad. I think at this point it's actually driveable. Ok, maybe not very far... Yes, I'll need some sheet metal around the drivers A pillar that took a nice solid tree, and maybe some around the passenger headlight that got pushed down by another tree.
Big beefy brake calipers and rotors. Sway bar looks great, LCA are probably bent, but not much else underneath except for sheetmetal. I need to get it up on the rack to know for sure.
So cool! Glad to see it made it okay. Always a worry with transport. Especially when it get's moved rig to rig a few times. Congrats on getting it finally. Now the fun really begins. Can't wait to see it come together Dan. As soon as my car is on the road I've got to come down to see it
Good candidate for getting a portapower.
Do you have a stud gun? I have your slide hammer here.
Do you have some heavy duty trees you can pull around or maybe build some pyramid structures out of heavy duty steel and bolt to the ground for anchor points for pulling the chassis out?
I have ideas we need to discuss
Pieces you 100% need:
Front hood (Fiberglass)
Front end (Sheridan, Do you have this on order?)
930 control arms (Or possibly 914 control arms with 914 torsion bars? http://914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/index.php?t162853.html )
Driver side A pillar section.
Drivers side headlight bucket
I placed my order in the 914 store. We'll see who can fill it, cheap...
The boss and I negotiated for a Sheridan order. I'm only holding off because I don't have anywhere to store it. I gotta get that BMW stripped and crushed.
I had some ideas for bending sheet metal. I have no shortage of trees, but I also was thinking we could use the lift. Either the posts for side to side or the arms for up and down. Maybe put some anchors in the concrete and reinforce the Ibeams for the lift a bit more solid. I think the bending might be minimal once the items that are heavily bent are replaced. (or just before they are replaced..) The measurements we took of Andrews car are pretty close other than the A-pillar pushed in and the passenger headlight bucket pushed down a couple inches. It's all fixable with flat sheet metal, but easier with some cheap (did I say cheap) replacement panels.
I met you at Tygaboys Fab day....
I was pleased to learn this past weekend that you brought this beast to the West Coast.
Once done, you and Andrew will have two of the nicest wide body 914's (w/engine swaps) around.
I'm looking forward to seeing them together in the future.
I couldn't help myself, I had to take it for a quick little driveway action.
Should be lots of fun...
You can embed videos from youtube as noted below
Who says you cannot buy a thrill?
Laying a little rubber in a 914 V8 is great fun and you do not need to break any speed laws.
How is the radiator? No leaks?
Do I hear a knock?
I ended up getting some Liqui-Moly oil flush and giving this italian tune up a try - I went for about 10 minutes on the highway at 4000RPM, red-lined it a few times, brought her back, flushed the oil, and the problem was fixed. No more lifter tick.
I had to look it up. Never heard of one. I thought it may be an age thing. My age not the car
Dan!! What a lucky man!! that car! Can't wait to see it fixed.
Spray that monster "black on black" Andrew . Black out Everything!! Gold Fuchs!
yellow would be my second choice
I would repaint it the same as it is now.
I LIKE the SCREAMSICLE name. If you repainted it, you couldn't use that name.
I like the Cherry red! Obviously prefer the orange, but still.
Maybe a 914 specific Malga red?
I have a partial front clip you can have. I sawsalled it from the VIN tag forward. Includes front half of fenders and headlight buckets. A little rust here and there but free if you want it.
Sure Mike, that will solve most of my problems.
i'd even make a donation to your beverage fund.
I prefer Gin.
Just give me a heads up when you're on the way. It's sitting on the side of the house ready to go.
Mike, The wheels are turning, but just not on the truck yet. It might be a couple weeks. We have other things that need attention down in Ca.
Gin is certainly doable.
Some Reds from different manufacturers-
2006 Mustang Red (left) 2016 Stingray Red (right)
2003- Corvette Magnetic Red
2008 Viper Venom Red
Hard to get good pics of cars with high metallic paint...They really pop in the sunlight.
In some of the old posts, the car also looked great when it was all white.
Because of the history of this car, it would be cool to keep the same paint scheme. Changing the orange to any color Dan wants would still work and honor that. So stoked to see this car in good hands.
So this is it in Red.
I like the Semi Metallic above, but I'm not that kind of painter. It will depend on budget.
The good news is my Wife is onboard. She wants it to be nice too.
The conversation went like this...
He: It costs about 600 for the hood.
But I can fix this one."
She: "well, we want it to look good..."
He: "oh my heart, this is the big one"
She: "that's just not your forte"
That red one is another LS swap I'm pretty sure it has a boxster 6 speed in it.
I would reconsider painting it red
Andrew, I didn't realize due to the cryptic screen name that this was your dad. This should go back to looking just the way it was. Red or orange, doesn't matter. That car is insane!
Father like son...they love their HP.
Watching this rebuild closely.
I like lots of reds, I've had a few.
I particularly like this red, Victory Red a 2000s Corvette color.
Soooo, for us West Coast guys, what IS in that gas can...
There it is in all white. Looks awesome!
I vote for Phoenix Red
Here you go! Kinda like the red Ford Flex! if you seen one they
Really "Pop"in the sunlight.the pic does not due justice!
Ok here's the video you've all been waiting for. Well, a couple of you, ...at least one of you....
I finally got the BMW off the rack so i could put the Porsche on it and check it out from underneath.
To answer Andrews question.
I'm replacing a 2001 BMW 330ci that once looked like this.
and now looks like this after going flipity flopety...
Just another opinion that's worth nothing, but to keep this true to the OG and put your touch on it... Keep the paint scheme and replace the highlights with YOUR color. Don't do a full color change.
Looking at the video. You should buy a new tub. It will be cheaper in the long run just to transfer the drivetrain over. Look like you may need to replace from the doors forward.
Cheaper and faster to transfer everything into a good body.
That's about what I was expecting body wise. And one reason I keep saying we need to pull it out is to get that front end back into alignment and not just move sheet metal.
I see a straight donor chassis will leave you with not only good measurements to pull from but good steel.
Even if you cut everything off and replaced I still think it needs some pulls to bring the tension out of the chassis. And once you have a good few pulls out you might find that it's not so bad.
I'll give you a call tomorrow after work on my drive home.
Congrats...welcome to the club.
Well, you're full of cheery thoughts...
Ha! Definitely too many (at once) with my space limitations!
Regarding your project - I too have some thoughts. I am not trying to be a "Debbie Downer" but I also would not want you to kill yourself in an ill-handling car!
I would encourage you to strongly consider all of your options before doing anything but parking your car in the garage at this point. For what its worth, which is probably not much, I am more than happy to discuss what I have learned over the years with you - PM me your contact info if interested.
My experience with adding substantial power to a teener and the challenge of making the package work properly leads me to believe a new chassis would be the best decision (at least to strongly consider).
From what I have seen over the years, your car was never finely tuned to adequately perform - not a poke - just reality. Repairing the chassis, as Mike has stated, would require a precise and enormous effort with no guarantees of the desired result. I realize all of these projects have "budgets" but to me - you essentially purchased a drivetrain - not so much a car.
If I were in your shoes, I would have budgeted for a newly prepped chassis with a cage that ties into the windshield frame (A-pillar). Once a 914 has over 400 hp (and more importantly torque), the benefit of further strengthening the very weak center section of the car is paramount. Night and day difference in my experience - I have gone both ways on a few different teener projects.
As a few can attest, a properly balanced build will pay huge dividends in the end. My car for instance, is remarkably tame and balanced with a good margin of increased power beyond your project. A teener can be built to be both a monster and pussy cat but it just doesn't happen throwing parts together.
I think this is some excellent advice.
Having a V8 914 in the past, I also agree with Tony.
It's obvious that you have some solid feedback from some knowledgeable experienced members here. You have a lot of thinking to do.
I understand budget constraints but I have never finished a car within budget. Shit happens and Murphy rears his head at every opportunity.
In either case, you purchased a sweet project, just relax and enjoy the journey.
I'm looking forward to what you decide.
Thanks for all your thoughts, but enough talk about body swaps. You guys are really bringing me down.
There is so much work done to this body/chassis, I just don't want to start over.
This car is fixable. And it will be right when its done.
All that said, I am getting a donor car. And I've ordered my Sheridan front end.
Things could change as I get down the road a bit as the car itself will determine how the repair is done. I just need it to talk to me a bit, right now I think it's still in shock...
Dan - I certainly am not trying to bring you down...sorry it came across that way. I look forward to seeing you restore your car - enjoy the process. I know you will appreciate the end result.
I would start buy building a nice solid level frame jig that at least marks all your suspension points. You would want to build this off a know good chassis. Even if that is using pieces from the donor car to build the jig. This will allow you to take the front and back sections and make them one with out much going wrong.
It can still go wrong but at least you have a solid base to measure off of and work from.
A few sticks of steel and you will be a much happier person doing this reconstruction project. Best of luck.
Jeff Hail's cart is a very nice one. I have a set of jigs from Tangerine Racing that I will also use to build one they pickup the rear suspension points. Use a steal cross bar for the front, and build the jigs from there to the front Arm points.
Or find a Bench and 914 fixtures.
I think it can be saved, I would just do the foundation work first.
Actually I will have a doner car that looks pretty solid. We planed on doing measurements, but a jig won't be hard to create and a lot more accurate. I think someone else mentioned this as well. Thanks for the tip. I'm already drawing it up as I write this. I've got a great scrap metal place a couple miles away.
I'm a bit late in getting an update out. But at least I've been busy.
We made a 1800 mile trip to pickup a donor car in LA and stopped by Roger Sheridan's place in Paso Robles to pickup the fiberglass front end. Quite the trip, but except for smoke virtually everywhere along the way, and taking GPS routes the weren't always the smartest choice, the trip was uneventful. (the way I like it.) My wife decided I should not embark on this journey by myself, so she came along to keep me company. And aside from asking every couple of hours "Tell me again, Why are you getting this car??" She didn't see the beauty of a pristine body. I look at bodies all the time, I know a good one from a bad one. We'll this one is just what the dr ordered. So, I'm going to cut it up and fix mine. Yeah, I know, I'm a bad person.
So there is a method to my madness. The rear of the Screamcicle has a lot of work done to it. Custom work that I don't want to redo. The side vents don't come with Rogers kit. They are beautifully molded into the side. The firewall is custom and done to mm of the engine rotating components. the roll cage is custom incorporated into the front and rear sections as well as fit into the dash. The fiberglass work is bonded to the tub and worked in nicely to make it look like it's always been there. The rear deck lid has a custom spoiler that molds into the rear fenders.
Enough of my rationalizing.
Here's my plan of attack.
Corner balance check blue car - done, it looks to be what I expected from a stock car without drivetrain. No huge variances.
Inspect for previous damage - No damage whatsoever.. Ok, the paint is faded...
Put blue car on the rack and remove suspension - today I hope, (it's gonna be hot and smokey)
Build chassis jig - got the major parts to construct the jig. more on that
Bolt to front and rear bumper mounts, could be a challenge to unbolt, I need to work that out.
Add arms that locate the mounting points.
Check and adjust for gaps
Bolt together jig and blue car
Unbolt blue car
Put the suspension back on the blue car so I can roll it out.
Put white car on rack
Pull engine and trans
Move chassis jig into place
Cut nose off white car leaving a couple inches for overlap
Measure and cut nose off blue car leaving a couple of inches for overlap
Mount nose to the jig and body leaving overlap
Connect both pieces are in place and mated using coleco connections
Measure and mark for cutting line
Plasma cut thru both pieces leaving a clean line on which to butt weld.
Possibly do this in sections leaving sections always connected. still working this out.
Once the nose is in place and the suspension point are where they should be, then I'll cut out the bad A pillar and do that repair.
I know I'm leaving things out, but you get the jist.
Oh, my wife had a great idea for the rear end. Make a tire trailer for it. The white car already has a receiver hitch.
Well it didn't take long to remove the suspension, brakes etc.
After doing some cleanup, I started working on the Jig or at least the frame.
And i need to do more research for removable or at least adjustable arms.
Lets see your drawing for the jig your looking to make!
I think you should build the jig base, then have the pieces that will bolt to the 914 go straight up. You could do round tube arms with a center peg. Have about 6 inches of fixture that bolts to your welded bench arm. That way you can pull with it still if you need to.
This is the Celette fixtures for the 914...
Nag nag nag..
Ok, here's a picture.
Welded the 3" 1/4" square tube together. It's pretty square and flat.
note: welding thick metal is fun...
I'm thinking of this kind of leg with a fixed adjustable portion and another that will roll. I really am having trouble moving it around so it need to be easier.
not my picture but someone doing something similar.
There was a 996 GT2 near here years ago, that was clipped. Whole front end. Really nice job, and the car was great.
There was a 997 GT3 RS that came over the Corkscrew and t-boned a car that spun. Also clipped—from the fuel tank~ forward. A friend selling that car disclosed it, and the buyer's PPI guys called to say "Are you sure? Because we can't find ANY evidence."
It can be done well.
I remember a race prepped narrow body 914 that was re-clipped in the Chicago area. It was white with a Japanese flag on the hood in case anyone remembers it. The owner said something in the suspension gave way and he hit a wall straight on at fairly high speed. It was really smashed but had a cage in it. The bent stuff was cut off and the front clip was swapped out. He seemed happy with the repair and was still driving it and racing it years later.
How much did you get that whole fiberglass front clip for?
I feel very hopeful on the reworking of your car. We are all watching and in your corner.
The very best of luck on it.
Be safe my friend.
Ok, here is an updated drawing of the very homemade chassis jig I'm building.
Basically it's 3x3" 1/4" thick square tube.
13' long, but the working rectangle is 10' x 42"
in this drawing I've added a second set of 3' bracing. When I start adding arms I'll determine where those should ultimately go.
This is not designed to be multiple use. When I'm done, I'll probably cut the ends off it and turn it into a welding table. Unless someone else wants it for 914 jig use, then I might consider selling it.
I'm working on the legs right now. Making the plates that will insert and weld into the legs that will contain the 3/4" bolts that will allow leveling adjustments. They will raise it approx 15" off the concrete allowing me to get under it to make the initial connections.
Next to the fixed legs will be roller legs with bracing between the 2 for strength. Found some heavy duty rollers similar to the picture in the above post for a reasonable price. They should serve well. I may have to trailer it out of the shop, ( I don't have a flat parking area next to the shop)
The hard part will be getting the arms in place. I found some 1 1/2" square tubing and some 1 1/4 square tubing that slide into each other snugly. I'll begin by creating plates for each of the mounting areas, such as the rear bumper mounts, suspension pickup points, trans mounts. I want to keep those holes very snug to the bolts. Then do some initial tack welds to where the arms will connect to the jig. Depending on how sturdy the arms are, I may brace them somehow. To each other, or to the jig.
It will likely become a spaghetti nest of arms. There are 6 in the rear on each side, 5 in the front on each side. That's 22 arms sticking up all over the place. If I add the jacking points it becomes unruly. I welcome thoughts on that and anything else...
I think you need to at least pick up the transmission mount as well as the upper front suspension bolts.
You will essentially be holding the chassis in place with only the rear suspension when you cut off the front end so at least having a point for the pinch weld to rest in the front would be ideal. It would also be a good place to clamp the body while your welding to prevent the main chassis from moving.
The more you do the better, especially up front. You can always just leave the pieces off and put them on if you find you need to fit the chassis more precisely.
I will be doing all the front pickup points. I'll try to do the rears as well. The engine mount is kinda a floating point. But I could make it fixed with a big tube of some sort to fill the hole rather than let it float around. Anyway, I'll try to do them all, we'll see.
I like the way you're doing it Dan.
There is so much custom work on the chassis that full replacement would be a much larger project.
Some pics of the attachment points on my frame table (Slutty Bench).
Each pair is connected with a heavy crossmember bolted to the main frame. (spot welds holding crossmember to frame were removed after construction)
The main frame is bolted together so it can be disassembled for long term storage.
I currently have the table anchored to the floor with large turnbuckles so some chassis pulling can be done without the frame twisting.
I forgot about your front swaybar when I was rationalizing on keeping the chassis. It would be an easy swap, but another thing to do.
I really like your frame pictures. Especially mounting both pickup points together then attaching to the main frame.
I'm going to do some more research before I start making arms. That way seems to be as solid as it gets.
Do you have any pictures of pulling in action? I'm curious how you attach on jig side. I'm assuming you bolt to the pickup points on the car side to pull.
I'm hoping not to need that, but I'm realistic.
Chris, (or anyone) I would love to see any pictures you find of the Screamcicle.
One of my decisions is whether to repair the drivers side lower control arm or replace it. I know you made some changes to the ball joints and there are also elephant bushings I would like to save.
I see the bottom cover is off the passenger lower ball joint and can't tell if it's bad or just missing the cover. I'll have a better idea once I pull it apart.
The update for today is that I was able to mount the legs to the jig frame structure.
Working upside down, I mounted the fixed legs on the inside of the laterals. then it was obvious that I should put the wheeled legs on the outer side of the laterals. Then later I'll add a bracing between the 2 legs which should be plenty strong for whichever leg is in use.
I also need to add some welds to the topside, now that it's flipped over and on it's feet. That was a challenge with to guys with bad backs. We were able to make it happen with jacks and leverage.
My cheap jig wheels from the metal scrap yard work excellent, All I had to do is cut the welds that kept them from turning 360 degrees. They even have zert fittings and do roll very smoothly.
Well, reducing the size fixed the picture upload. They were less than 4mb, but smaller fixed it.
Photos have to be under 4mb. you'll need to resize them. I use Ifranview.
Resize to 1920x....
With the bracing you mentioned I think it'll be good. I do think that maybe a 1"square tube as a diagnal brace along the jig might help.
Also what about doing two more feet in the middle of the jig? I know it's heavy duty 1/4", but I still worry about sagging.
Also how about a sliding "L" bracket that bolts to the leg and allows for the jig to be more stable? It could also be boolted to the floor. I worry about it toppling with the chassis on it or at least not being perfectly stable.
With this you could still level the jig with the feet, but then attach these L brackets after all is said and positioned.
You could test deflection of the jig... Measure bottom of jig to bottom of floor. Place as much weight on the center of the jig as you can (Like 300lbs) and remeasure. That would give you an accurate deflection of your jig so you can determine if it needs extra help
Today was a day of making templates for the mounting plates.
Making the templates was easy. Cutting them out not so much.
A plasma cutter certainly makes it easier to cut 1/4" plate. Probably didn't need to be that thick, but it's what I had leftover from a bumper build for my jeep.
Tomorrow I get to grind, shape, drill and that's probably as far as I get.
Also, found some angle iron and a 2x2" in my junk pile that I will be using for making cross bracing. I wasn't going to use the 1.5" x 1.5" square tubing but realizing how short they would be, I think they will be plenty strong. they are 1/8" thick. Plus some 1.25" square tubing that will slide into the 1.5" and fit snug. I can either bolt them or weld them to the distance I need.
That is all, I'm going to go put some Aloa Vera on my welding sunburn.
Dan - It looks like I'm late to the party but going forward, if it's of any help, I'd be happy to cut stuff for you on the plasma table. All I need are the dimensions...
Best of luck with your project!
that jig in the above pics was made by my buddies body shop,When they started it was a body dolly and I added the other points to do a front clip, no pulling , just cut and weld it was supported in the center when in was in use , the body gaps came out perfect... and chassis square..
oh ya it was attached to a straight chassis during the building of..
many cuts zig zagged and purposely.. factory spot welds intact.. there is a factory manual that shows factory front clip procedures ...I have it somewhere ..I moved 1300 miles... not pretty
So did you butt weld it back together, or overlap and then weld together?
Can you tell why i'm so curious?
Today's update is minor, but still somewhat significant my mind. I place an order to Eastwood for some sheet metal tools. Also visited my local Harbor Freight. Even got a little honey dues done.
But still I managed to attach 4 plates to the car. Needed some tools to do that which slowed the day down a bit.
The rear 2 plates won't be on the 74 chassis. That's for the big bumpers.
Im gonna guess you didnt have those big torx 45 drivers for those bolts and it probably killed 3 hrs of your day...
I should have mentioned to you that the bumpers front/rear would be slightly different for your 74 vs your 76 donor... Sorry..
The weekend was a wash, but weekdays are for working so I got a bit done. I made the mounting plates for each of the chassis mounting points. (minus the bumper mounts, since apparently I assumed too much..)
So, now I'm working on cross members that will accept the arms that will weld to the plates. I have two mocked up, in the pictures below. I decided on round 1.5" tubing instead of square tube mostly due to being able to index the tube to get a nice perpendicular (isn't that a fun word) connection to the jig cross members..
I'm finding that I will probably need to finish weld at least 2 of them so that I can hang the Jig frame and get the exact measurements of the other arms. I'm thinking that I will go and get some more 2" square tube along with some 6" bolts to go thru the 3" + 2" square and mount them to the main Jig for consistency. Before I do that I will align and level the main Jig frame. (not that I think it matters but only because it may at some point down the road.) then I will trim and final weld the 2 end mounting points. (rear trans mount and front lower control arms mount). Then build and tack weld the remaining arms. if all looks good, finish weld and call it good. I may add some cross bracing that will reinforce the arm positioning. I'll have a better idea once I get that far.
Now the front and rear arms are fixed
I moved the jig forward so there is about a 2" jig overhand on front and rear. Leaves more options down the road.
I remade one of the front arms that was too short. When working on a slanted plate, the arm length changes with positioning on the plate.
Then welded the front and rear arms to the the 2x2 cross bracing. (Also picked up some more 2x2 so I could be more consistent with the build)
Also picked up some 6" 3/8" bolts that will be used to locate and somewhat hold the cross arms. They will also be welded, but the bolts will allow them welds to be cut and still retain the mounting positions.
Since I now know the exact lengths of the other arms, (well somewhat). I can begin cutting them out and welding them to the cross braces.
I can't wait to start working on the white car.
Continue to make progress on the Jig. A couple more arms to make and it will be ready to test. I say test, because it might be a challenge to unbolt and separate from the body. Ive already make some adjustments to the arms to allow it to drop down and away. I'll make the remaining arms and give it a try.
If your concern is not being able to lift it straight up you could unbolt and separate the arms from the jig on the ones that look like they will bind.
I think it looks great. Did you get any body/seam clamps? I think doing one clamp on the front of the long would be a good idea. Give you something strong to hold the front of the body with while you separate the bad pieces.
Ok, this is more like liftoff.
The arms are made, they are solid. No bracing needed. They seem to be holding in place without heat warpage.
I did make a tactical error on the motor mount bracket. I put it on top of the mount since it was flat and easier to locate. Does make it very difficult to drop the frame. So I made a cut and bent it out of the way. i can put it back later if I want to once the jig is in place on the white car.
Next step is to put it back on the blue car. Make sure everything aligns. Then drill for alignment bolts. Then I can pull it off for good and reassemble the blue car suspension to make it a roller again.
Then the fun begins...
Looks great Dan!
I'd be inclined to separate the strut tower pieces from the lower brackets though.
I am impressed with what you have accomplished in less than 2 months. It would have taken me 3X as long...congrats.
You're a man on a mission and it helps that experienced members are chiming in to offer their input.
No doubt this car found the right home
I can't wait to see it in person someday in the near future.
A quick update.
I completed the reassembly of the chassis and Jig.
Only minor adjustments needed. YAY!
one more disassembly and it's done.
My Datsun friend came over and we assembled the suspension for the blue donor and rolled it out of the shop!
After some Laurel and Hardy efforts in getting the Z car in the shop, we were able to pull the engine on Z car and determine the cause of the 'ceased engine'. it was the flywheel rubbing on the trans bell housing.
a bit more work to do on the Z car and we'll be back to our regular program.
The Z car is running.
The BMW suspension is on deck.
Then back to our regular scheduled program.
In the meantime. I'm shopping for wheels.
I really want to go with something like this with a deep dish, but I can't find it anywhere. Anyone have any ideas?
I have 3" spacers I can remove and use that distance as dish...
What ET did you determine you need?
mag center 20bolt bbs 10x17 and 11x17
Dan - There are "non-bimmer" options...my old car. These use the 16" Fuch centers and then are converted...Lindsey Racing I believe? AFAICR...
Lindsey's are 17'
here is 18's
Staggered wheel widths are better for handling with a big high powered engine in a 914.
The wheels you are looking for need to be custom built to fit your car. The only way to get what you need is a 3 piece wheel. Now for the bad news there are no used wheels available in your needed size and ET. Viable options would be BBS, or CMW used of course but do not be surprised you will still need to buy some new inner and outer rims as the sizes/ET is special for your car. I build Speedline wheels and make custom sizes for the 930/911 wide body, 965/964RSR, 993/TT/GT2 cars. I have a Techart Daytona centers available for a custom build. My sets are however around $4,000 using the Daytona centers. I am attaching a picture of a set I built.
Those are nice!
Not exactly what you want, but comes with tires, and a decent deal...
Edit: just noticed it's an auction. Will likely blow your budget.. those wheels are expensive....
but I would toss in a crazy price bid and see, if it goes over it goes over
Those look nice, but I'm going to keep looking and try not to jump into anything to quickly. I have some time to be picky.
I installed the BMW suspension on my buddies car. He loved it. Low and tight. Tomorrow I get to lay hands on the Porsche.
A big thank you for buying and rebuilding the Screamsicle. I helped Paul with the car for about 6 years. I am also the purveyor of the Gas Can.
I fixed many systems on the car but never got the chance to fully refine them. I'm a bit anal about certain things, i.e. how it looks or can it be simpler. A good example in the "octopus". Once we figured out all the issues with the old one, I build the one on the car from scratch that was stronger and simplified. If you keep the same basic setup around the clutch and brake masters, I'd be more that happy to make a version 2.0 of the carbon fibre mini skid.
Good lucky in the project and I can't wait to see the finished project. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.
Update on Mondays progress...
Finally I was able to pull the car in and begin analysis. I spent the day going over the engine to determine what and if there is anything wrong with it. The lifter noise is bothersome but apparently it's a byproduct of aluminum block and heads, high lift cam, headers. My "fix" for this was to make some insulator panels from another project that fit and cover up the headers, leaving the top of the engine exposed. I started the engine and the noise was drastically reduced. I then pulled the panels out with the engine running and it was obvious that the noise was being transmitted thru the headers. I don't know if I can make something that will reduced the noise and still allow heat to dissipate. That is something to work on. Maybe some header wrap. I'll still be going thru the motions of pulling the valve covers, checking lifters, and ensuring all is well under the hood.
A couple of other things I found in my investigation.
The stethascope test revieled that non of the lifters were noiser that any others.
it also revieled that there is also a very noisy injector or 2 that I will be replacing.
1 cylinder (#5) is very weak when checking header temp cyl to cyl. Like 1/2 of the others. The compression test showed that cylinder to be one of the highest, so it's likely an injector, or coil/wire/plug.
All the cyls compression tested between 160 and 180.
There was one plug that was loose, (#4) the others very tight.
There was one plug wire (#1) that lost the end when I removed it. It might have been ok or not before I started messing with things.
The Bore-scope showed a nice pretty interior of the cylinders.
Apparently there is a known problem with the pickup tube getting an O-ring nick on installation that can cause oil pressure to give a false reading (mixing air and oil)
All this can cause the lifter tick in some cars. I need to replace the oil pan gasket, so Ill put that on my list for that job. I also want see if there is any additional baffling I can do 'while I'm in there'.
Today (Tuesday) was spent with the Datsun back in the shop. Some additional Weber tweaks, fixing the chokes and most importantly adding a return line back to the fuel tank helped it run way better. Still needs more work, but first he's going to put some mufflers on that monster.
Tomorrow is another day. hope to begin tear down!
Here's a suspension question...
If I convert the 911 Bilstein struts over to coil overs...
Would I be able to use the 914 control arms from the other car and connect them to the 911 struts/tie rods/and aluminum center section. Just how interchangeable are the 914 and 911 lower control arms?
trying to kill to birds with one stone.
or leave it as is.. (still need to repair broken lower control arm, possibly RS lower ball joint.)
Porsche 930 Turbo (1988) front suspension complete with aluminum cross
• Tangerine Racing 32 mm thru body front sway bar kit with adjustable drop links
• Porsche 930 22 mm Torsion Bars
• Elephant Racing poly bronze control arm bushings
• Elephant Racing de-cambered ball joints
• Rear trailing arms boxed and strengthened
• Bump steer kit
• Steering rack limiter kit
• Bilstein front struts and rear coil-overs
• Eibach 250lb. rear springs, top hats modified with spring helper sleeve and
powder coated, strengthened double wall rear shock towers
And the different in spline count on the 914-4 to 911 arms means different torsion bars are required. The -4 arms will work in the AL crossbar, just need to use the -4 adjuster caps instead of the 911 stuff.
I found the 6/24/2010 invoice from J&M Motorsports with p/n info:
Comp Cams Camshaft LS1: 3114R/3753R 54-000-11
T&D 1.8 Ratio Rockers: PK-1.8 TD
LS1 Valve Spring Upgrade Kit: TFS-2500300
Valve Cover Spacers: 3060800
5/16 x .116 4130 7.300 Pushrods 5116-7300
Use 911 a-arms. You want those big torsion bars or you'll end up with oversteer again.
I finished with removing the suspension and made an executive decision to not pull the engine. What can I say, I'm lazy and was only going to do it because I was curious. Well, I'm not that curious. So I decided to just pull the trans so i could connect the jig to the rear trans mounts. So the trans is now out and the next step is to connect the Jig to the body and see where we stand.
The initial try showed me ai need to trim some excess material around one of the plates in the back. Then it should drop down.
I did notice that a prior mod to mount the clutch and brake master cylinders eliminated one of the mounting points for the drivers front control arm. I'll need to see if that will be a problem keeping it from dropping down all the way. Or if I need to put it back or just eliminate it.
So the 911 Torsion bar will not fit the 914-4 arms.
If you go coil over torsion bars do not matter. I would get a plug for the end of the arm though.
Elephant Racing Bushings are nice, and for the poly bronze set I had, they sold me a set of the base sleeves front and rear when I swapped the control arms and rear arms. I would just contact them and see if they can provide sleeves for the arms. You could also have a set machined. And if they are not damaged the instructions say to install with a base of JB weld if required. JB weld can be neutralized with a bit of heat from a torch and they will pull off if reduced effort.
I want to point out that the suspension points is there on your car just the one piece shown was removed to fit the box for the peddles for brake and clutch master. My V8 car with 930 is the same. Bill that built your car was very kind to me and gave me the bent metal to fit these parts. The suspension is bolted to the front points and the point where the rack is. The under-sway bar point on the driver’s side is not there and our cars (mine and yours) need the over the top bar like you have. Now the cover will not have 4 points to bolt up. I am working that out
Bob and Dan, you don't need it as three points make a plane. I would just add a piece to keep the noise down from vibration and be done.
I have the same issue with my pedal box, I think I can replicate the threaded receiver for the under tray as it is in the same plane as the floor. So I have an early metal cross bar that I will use to make sure it is in the correct place. Also have a long stick to measure the distance back to the rear suspension console. And of course that measurement is documented off these points in the drawings I have. My MCs are all inside the car on my box as of right now, as I wanted to be able to adjust the pedals if need be.
Most likely another detail I over thought on that car.
In trying to lower the car onto the jig I ran into a few spots that needed work.
trimming the front of the rear lower control arm.
eliminating the motor mounts
eliminating the point where the master and clutch cylinder are located, ( as just discussed)
And unfortunately eliminating the rear trans mounts. Apparently they are modified and my pickups were too long. However, they were located in the right position forward to back. That at least told me it should have been correct. Also they removed the slant. I tried to do the same, but they are still to long. so I just hacked them off. the other pickup points in the rear started easily with finger threading the bolts. So i'm confident the rear section is in the right location.
The pictures below are where the front pickup points differ from the Jig. that will soon be 'fixed'.
Oh I thought you where replacing both sides.
Yes keep them the same otherwise down the road it would get confusing.
As for the lower cover I like the idea of laying up a carbon fiber cover, which I did not think about, but will be stealing that idea for my build.
Finally another update
I haven’t been resting on my laurels, whatever those are…
After connecting the white car to the Jig I made a half-assed attempt at a pull to see what that would look like. I quickly determined that the front jig arms need to be removed in order to make the pulls.
I should take a step back and say that I decided to try to pull the front end back into the proper location. I’ll still be replacing much of the front end, but this will make a better starting point.
So the week has been a bunch of background work, drilling holes for the cross braces so they could be relocated into the correct position once I was ready to check the pulls or begin attaching the new front end sheet metal. Then I cut off the cross bracing taking off the front suspension point arms with them. I did actually reattach the trans mounts to the Jig. Just another strength point more than anything else.
I ordered a set of pulling rams from Harbor Freight. 25% off helps.
I’m still experimenting with bracing, and how to lock down the chassis to make the pulls. I found a nearby tree that may come in handy. The problem is the pulls need to be down and the tree is ….up the hill.
I also made a tool to measure different points from one chassis to the other. I know that’s what the jig is for, but this is for double checking.
All that and some more Datsun tuning.
That's about all for now..
Thanks for listening to my babbling..
Why don't you pull down on your jig? Reinforce the base some more so it can't move/twist with pulling and pull on it after anchoring it to the floor?
Those construction grade expansion bolts have really high tinsel strength, like 2k lbs each for a 3/8" bolt. Plenty to keep the jig in place while making pulls.
Rather than anchor my platform directly to my floor I set screw anchors in the floor a short distance outboard of the corners, and then threaded forged eyebolts into them.
I welded short angle irons to the beams of the platform with a hole in the protruding leg and used heavy turnbuckles to attach between the angle irons and the eyebolts.
That way I can easily remove them when I'm done and the floor won't have anything sticking out.
Not quite. Eyebolts like that won't handle the loads.
These are what I used:
Forged Turnbuckels, the cheapies found in most box hardware stores will bust open with shrapnel flying if your unlucky. If lucky they stretch and snap, lots of potential energy built up in the turn buckle.
Be safe man, don't skimp on the basic hardware.
Chris's suggestions are great.
I decided to try to remove the Elephant bushings (races) from the broken lower control arm. I heated it up with a torch to break the JB weld that is supposed to be holding them on. I did get it to move, but not without making a mess of the bushing/race. So I made a call to Elephant and found they do indeed sell just the races. $50 and they'll be here in a couple days.
Next was to remove the decambered ball joint. I spent way too long modifying another tool to fit the ball joint. But alas, it was too much for me and after almost sending myself to the hospital (no I'm fine) I went to plan B. No worries, the control arm is toast so I just cut a notch in it and popped it with a chisel. Came out easy doing that and no damage to the threads or ball joint. Why didn't I think of that in the first place...
Ordered a new ball joint nut and 911 control arm.
Should be good to go in a few days.
Having two good control arms in hand will make the next steps easier.
A bit overdue for an update. But the biggest one is I'm still waiting on the pump for the rams. The original one I ordered will do fine as a replacement pump for my engine hoist jack. So I reordered the correct hand pump 10ton.
in the meantime. I've gathered most of the parts I needed for suspension repair. i picked up a new lower control arm. New Elephant Racing 'races' for the same. New ball joint rings and a new tie rod end to replace the bent one. I put together the new control arm and it's ready to go. The pass side lower ball joint was missing the plug on the bottom. Remember these are cambered ball joints that go for 380 a pair. They are both very tight and in great condition. Well the pass side took some downward force that popped the Epoxied plug out of the bottom. I was able to easily push it back into place with just the right amount of force. I made a replacement plug and epoxied it back in place. I just need to steal a good boot off the blue car and hope it fits, then the control arms will be ready to go.
i installed the inner and outer tie rod ends on the Drivers side of the rack. The only problem there was not having a skinny wrench to remove and install the inner end. i was proud of my shade tree invention to make my fat wrench work.
i need to pick up a needle greaser since none of this has zert fittings. Well the Elephant racing bushings do. yay!
I did some sanding on the hood to make it ready for some fiberglass repair. I put my WCC 914 hoodie to good use to keep me from itching all day.
I was able to find the concrete anchors that Chris and others recommended. It works much better than having bolts sticking up. I was able to anchor the car on 4 sides and it's not going anywhere.
Probably the best thing that happened over the last week or 2 is that a good friend from church is a former bodyman. He's done many of these types of repairs. And from the pictures they were done very well. He even built an all steel 914 gt race car body. I invited him over to see and analyze the damage from an experts point of view and since he's retired and bored, he jumped at the chance.
He came up with several options of where to cut, how to pull, types of stitching, etc. Fortunately for me one of my favorite options was one of his options. We still haven't decided on the where to cut part, but we will once the pulls are made and it's somewhat straight.
On to actual repairing of the car! Since I don't have a proper puller, I started using the 8k come-along and pulling out the driver door hinge area. it's pretty close. looking at the donor/blue car hinge area, it actually has a tear and rust near the bolts, so I may be piecing two of these together.
You should post a picture of the bracing you did to the lift
That hood will be easier to repair than you think I bet
We finished with pulling the body prior to cutting the front end off. The intention here was not to make it straight, but to move the body back into position so when we attach the new pieces they will line up.
This week (and most of last week) is all about replenishing the empty bankbook. I'm taking 21 bins of auto parts to The Medford (Swap) Meet. Also, lots of stuff that won't fit in bins. Eventually there will even be some 914 parts but not this trip. I keep everything until I'm sure I don't need it. (yes, that's why I have 21 bins...)
Hey, any other swap meets around? I'm thinking I need another one before I unload all the leftovers...
Update for 10-18-18
We gave it a BOB!
Ok, stepping back a bit. The swap meet was a financial success, but I ended up with about the same amount of parts left over. Still it was worth it to keep the project moving.
Getting back to the car.
I removed all the parts and accessories from the front end and after careful consideration (and going back and forth a bit) Michael (my bodyman friend and advisor) and I determined where the first cuts would be.
Then we went for it! Off with its nose!
I then started drilling out spot welds for the driver’s side damage using a nice tool that Michael brought over. I spent the next 2 days peeling off the sheet metal between the door jam and the tower. I’ll have a bit of cleanup to do where the spot welds were, but it will be stronger and fully welded when it’s back together.
Next up is more measuring and documenting on the blue car. Then we’ll begin spot weld drilling on the blue car.
Once the inner fender was removed, I saw an opportunity to increase the foot pedal space by removing a boxed section. It’s already been reinforced with the pedal mount and I’ll add more to it by tying it into the long. I may even sacrifice some more inner fender to gain foot space. The tire can’t reach that section and its one area that I want to improve.
Looks good Dan!
NICE work! That has to be a bit nerve wracking to slice off that much of your baby. Crunched up, but still... good on you.
Keep up the great progress!
Wow Amazing dissection Dan! I am actually seeing some parts of the car that I have never seen before. Just when I thought I have seen every inch.
Incredible amount of progress in 3 short months. You have been very busy. It is clear this car landed in the right persons hands! Keep up the good work and updates.
Previous owner (and guy who wrecked it) Paul
I know there are those that could do it better, but I have a good mentor looking over my shoulder keeping me honest. I probably wouldn't have taken it down this far, but I'm glad I did. Yeah, it was tough cutting it up, but I had plenty of time to prepare myself for it.
Eye on the prize..
Ok, at least I feel like I'm making some progress.. Believe it or not I've been working almost every day. My days aren't as long as others, but as long as I don't stop, it will eventually get done.
I still have a bunch of cleanup work. Drilling spot welds, trimming different sections. figuring out the strut tower.
I admire your patience in working on this project.
GREAT shot! Makes me feel like I'm sitting in an operating theater, privileged to be observing MAJOR surgery! Wait.... I am!
Keep up the awesome work, Dan. As you said, continual progress, little though it may be at some times, and all of a sudden, it'll be done! Thanks for taking us on this journey.
Progress is being made. Yay!
So I trimmed off the excess metal bracketry and removed the strut towers. So the areas where the ‘spot welds are just about ready. What’s left is to determine where the metal to metal connections will be made. The area in question will be just ahead of the vin on the RF inner fender. So about 12” of fine metal work should hide the seam. The rest can be not so fine, but will be plenty strong.
At this time I realized I had a lot of paint prep to do. I chose the easy way out and took it to my local media blaster. They did a fine job of cleaning up the pieces. The big one and a few smaller ones.
The next step is to dust off my paint gun and give priming a whirl. I'll have to get creative and put some heat into the job to get it to dry. At least we have some sunshine during the days. I'll close off a bit of the garage and turn up the space heaters.
I know there are other ways to do this, but I had to stop thinking about it and just do it. (as Michael would say)
Side note: I met a guy with a 914-6 tube frame race car as I was at Napa buying paint. This was in White City, OR, anyone know someone in the area? We had a nice conversation but did exchange names.
Put space heaters on the metal about an hour before your painting. Take them off when the panels are about 90deg consistently, right before you spray. Should cool down quickly to about 70 so you will want to mix your primer before removing the heaters. I imagine you'll have about a 10 min window. Unless you can get the garage to about 70deg..
For those that missed the 'door' thread here's what I've been working on.
Trying to get the doors ready so I can prime them at the same time I do the rest.
(I hate cleaning guns and such)
So I took a timeout from the doors and helped my buddy install a 6" lift on his Jeep.
But back at it today.
I trimmed a bit of sheet metal off the white car, and while cleaning it up to get ready for welding with the wire grinder I caught a lip and spun it into my stomach. Fortunately it ate my new T-shirt and ended up with only a minor rash on my tummy. But, also twisted my thumb. It could have been much worse. I think taking it easy for a couple days and I'll be back full speed.
So it looks like the rust is holding off on the bare metal. Should I prime it anyway, or just get it connected to the car and finish the welding then prime the whole assembly?
I expect some rain in the next few weeks and colder weather. Maybe that's my answer, do it while the weather is 1/2 way decent.
I always spray with phosphoric acid diluted to the proper strength. It can remain rust free for quite some time after that. No need to prime
Now is the best time to prime it. The oils in your hands will cause for issues with rusting as well as surface prep. I would lightly scuff the metal with a pad and wax and grease it then prime it. Thin it really well like I spoke and just give it two or three thin coats.
Even if you prime the finger touch will still be the same problem.
You always clean, clean, clean before you lay paint.
Don't forget to increase your gas flow if you can. Welding upside down with MIG or TIG can give you all sorts of fits as the shield gas is heavier that air, so your loosing the protection of the weld puddle.
Ben can go into way more details than I can on this one. You didn't happen to make the frame jig so you could lay it over on its side did you?
for my build
Also your work is looking great, way to stay after it.
Wear a dust mask to cut down on metallic boogers. Not good to breath all that shite.
I put some primer on the replacement pieces.
Like the ‘this page is blank purposely’, there are a few spots that I didn’t prime, or left a bit sparse so that I could weld those spots without spending hours undoing today's work. I did previously put some weld thru primer on those spots.
Not actually a big deal to many, but for me, it’s the first time I did this on my own. Normally Andrew has his hands in this type of work. I’m feeling pretty accomplished for this mundane task. Prepping, building a ‘booth’, venting with a good fan, mixing paint (I got this wrong the first time), adjusting the gun and the compressor, laying down the wet stuff, finally cleaning up. It turned out pretty good. I’m just glad it’s all hidden by outer layers.
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