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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 914 Body In White
Posted by: McMark Jul 30 2018, 11:39 AM
Well, I started on this path http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=115742 Back in 2011, I pick up a Celette bench on Craigslist. I rented fixtures a few times, but along the way Celette moved everything to a newer setup/system and trashed the old fixtures.
Last year I was able to http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=297536&view=findpost&p=2467343 but would still need to rent fixtures. So it was nice to have the capability, but rental fees meant that expediency was critical. For a project like SirAndy's 914-6 there will be a lot of measuring, checking, cutting, welding, etc. That translates to a lot of time on the bench, and the less I feel the need to rush, the better. When straightening a chassis, it's critical that you have a plan and make pulls and adjustments in the correct order.
Restoration Design just started carrying their own set of fixtures that are compatible with what I have now. They had the early 911 fixtures, but thankfully they jumped on the 914 next. So I just placed my order for these. Now I'll have everything in house to put cars up on fixtures for straightening, major rust repair, and/or cage work. This is a huge development for Original Customs.
I've always done rust repair, but this is the first time that I'll start offering a 'chassis restoration service' for both individuals and other shops. So anyone, anywhere can ship their chassis here and get back a solid and straight body, ready to build on. I'll also be on the lookout for suitable cars to straighten/repair and sell ready to run, 'off the shelf'.
I can't wait to get started, then add early 911 and 356 fixtures...
Posted by: 914forme Jul 30 2018, 11:43 AM
Nice Mark, our community has needed this service for a long time.
Posted by: BeatNavy Jul 30 2018, 11:45 AM
Excellent, I may be in need before TOO long... 
Posted by: ValcoOscar Jul 30 2018, 11:47 AM
Mark-
Congrats..
I hope you have a large shop. I see lots of opportunities coming your way.
Oscar
Posted by: SirAndy Jul 30 2018, 11:55 AM
Posted by: Andyrew Jul 30 2018, 12:10 PM
BTW Mark, Thats awesome!
Posted by: mepstein Jul 30 2018, 12:11 PM
I think the 914 community might underestimate the cost of "chassis restoration". Like getting a car painted, it's easier to justify the cost on a $100-250K car but it's a much larger percentage of a 914.
But I think the service is needed as less and less shops do this kind of work.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Jul 30 2018, 12:43 PM
I almost wet myself with Andy's reply. I can totally relate. 
Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 30 2018, 12:45 PM
And then there’s the check writing!
Posted by: McMark Jul 30 2018, 01:03 PM
I think the 914 community might underestimate the cost of "chassis restoration". Like getting a car painted, it's easier to justify the cost on a $100-250K car but it's a much larger percentage of a 914.
But I think the service is needed as less and less shops do this kind of work.
Absolutely. It won't be cheap, but if you're embarking on a full restoration (or hiring out a full restoration) this is a significant opportunity. EVERYTHING else on the project can be swapped out as needed (engine, transmission, suspension, etc) -- but if you have a crooked chassis you're piling good parts onto a bad skeleton. Once you get a chassis painted, the opportunity to fix the body is gone....
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 30 2018, 04:03 PM
Awesome, Mark!
--DD
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jul 30 2018, 05:01 PM
...if you're embarking on a full restoration (or hiring out a full restoration) this is a significant opportunity. EVERYTHING else on the project can be swapped out as needed (engine, transmission, suspension, etc) -- but if you have a crooked chassis you're piling good parts onto a bad skeleton. Once you get a chassis painted, the opportunity to fix the body is gone....
Genau. Precisely.
Posted by: worn Jul 30 2018, 06:28 PM
Yes. I am sure that with such an important job, the hours would simply stack up. But, for that quality of customer, you can’t push the limits too far. Unless this should somehow come back around to bite me somehow...
Also, good for everyone that you have them.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Jul 30 2018, 07:25 PM
I think the 914 community might underestimate the cost of "chassis restoration". Like getting a car painted, it's easier to justify the cost on a $100-250K car but it's a much larger percentage of a 914.
But I think the service is needed as less and less shops do this kind of work.
I agree, many restoration customers have no clue what it takes to bring a decades old car back to square one, not even getting into paint or mechanical. I know guys who can't understand why it took $30,000 to put floors in their car, except the restorer explains that his only other option was to weld the floors to the dash, because that was the first piece of solid metal he found.
Posted by: Garold Shaffer Jul 30 2018, 09:03 PM
I think I may know a guy or two that can help you find some cars to fix and sell. 
Posted by: McMark Jul 31 2018, 05:18 AM
I think I may know a guy or two that can help you find some cars to fix and sell. I was thinking the same thing.
Posted by: Chris H. Jul 31 2018, 07:58 AM
Very exciting development Mark. To be able to start with a tub that is definitely straight would be a huge advantage. Plus if the owner can show documentation that a chassis has been checked on a Celette bench it should be worth more $ like a 996 with the IMS bearing fix done. No brainer for anyone who is about to drop serious $$$$$ on paint and body work.
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Jul 31 2018, 01:18 PM
My solution is much more crude.
I found an old Blackhawk bench, which has the same 100 mm bolt spacing and was supposed to be compatible with the older (now NLA) Celette fixtures. Then I found out they got trashed.
Highly likely my set up will be for sale very soon. We’re going to downsize and I want to get away from projects that need a frame bench. I’ll just send them to OC!
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Posted by: Perry Kiehl Jul 31 2018, 01:50 PM
I’d be very curious to know if the adapters and new fixtures would line up on a Blackhawk.
Another pic of my crude ity
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Posted by: Edward Blume Jul 31 2018, 02:20 PM
Congratulations! McMark is the right guy now with the right equipment! Makes me wish I lived in Michigan....
Posted by: sixnotfour Jul 31 2018, 02:23 PM
there is a source for the blackhawk 911 fixtures, he lists them on ebay every so often..
Posted by: mbseto Jul 31 2018, 03:15 PM
So the services you are talking about, would one of them be checking/verifying a chassis after the longs had been repaired and the paint stripped? Or is this only for post-accident straightening?
Posted by: r_towle Jul 31 2018, 03:24 PM
Tempted to strip my tub and send it for repairs.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 1 2018, 07:27 AM
What a terrific service to have available from a well-respected and knowledgable 914 technician. Kudos to McMark for acquiring that equipment.
Posted by: McMark Aug 1 2018, 10:08 AM
So the services you are talking about, would one of them be checking/verifying a chassis after the longs had been repaired and the paint stripped? Or is this only for post-accident straightening?
This setup allows any chassis in any condition or state of repair to be evaluated, as well as repaired. Even a fully painted chassis could be checked to confirm how straight it is.
I already built door jigs.
And I'll need to build a windshield jig.
Between the Celette, those jigs, and the factory chassis measurements I'll be able to confidently evaluate the TRUE condition of any and all 914 bodies.
Then I start moving towards early 911 and 356 bodies.
Posted by: McMark Aug 1 2018, 10:10 AM
Congratulations! McMark is the right guy now with the right equipment! Makes me wish I lived in Michigan....
I can handle transport of any chassis that rolls. And I offer a shipping reimbursement program.
Or just move to Michigan. It's fantastic here...
Posted by: Luke M Aug 1 2018, 11:20 AM
So the services you are talking about, would one of them be checking/verifying a chassis after the longs had been repaired and the paint stripped? Or is this only for post-accident straightening?
This setup allows any chassis in any condition or state of repair to be evaluated, as well as repaired. Even a fully painted chassis could be checked to confirm how straight it is.
I already built door jigs.
And I'll need to build a windshield jig.
Between the Celette, those jigs, and the factory chassis measurements I'll be able to confidently evaluate the TRUE condition of any and all 914 bodies.
Then I start moving towards early 911 and 356 bodies.
Hi Mark,
Do you have any plans on renting out the front window and door jigs?
Posted by: McMark Aug 2 2018, 04:29 AM
Yeah, that's certainly a possibility.
Posted by: bbrock Aug 2 2018, 08:10 AM
How stripped does a chassis need to be for a basic check? Would it be feasible to drive a car in and get a check? I could see Michigan becoming a road trip destination or stop over.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 2 2018, 08:14 AM
You need to remove suspension. That’s what most of the measurements are based on. Usually the engine comes out.
Posted by: 76-914 Aug 2 2018, 09:13 AM
How stripped does a chassis need to be for a basic check? Would it be feasible to drive a car in and get a check? I could see Michigan becoming a road trip destination or stop over.
Brent, yours probably won't fit the bench! As much welding as you've done on that car it has probably shrunk to a 3/4 scale 914 now.
Posted by: KELTY360 Aug 2 2018, 10:23 AM
How stripped does a chassis need to be for a basic check? Would it be feasible to drive a car in and get a check? I could see Michigan becoming a road trip destination or stop over.
Brent, yours probably won't fit the bench! As much welding as you've done on that car it has probably shrunk to a 3/4 scale 914 now.
Yeah, instead of a 914 it's a 685.5
Posted by: bbrock Aug 2 2018, 04:11 PM
How stripped does a chassis need to be for a basic check? Would it be feasible to drive a car in and get a check? I could see Michigan becoming a road trip destination or stop over.
Brent, yours probably won't fit the bench! As much welding as you've done on that car it has probably shrunk to a 3/4 scale 914 now.
Yeah, instead of a 914 it's a 685.5
But that's all by design. I want to be able to use those "compact car only" spaces when I'm done.
Posted by: bbrock Aug 2 2018, 04:16 PM
You need to remove suspension. That’s what most of the measurements are based on. Usually the engine comes out.
It's that last part I was wondering about. Pulling the suspension isn't the worst job but if the engine and tranny have to be dropped as well, it starts to become a real job.
Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 2 2018, 04:37 PM
remember this guy ?? I think he sold it all to a 914 specialist in germany.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=111490&view=findpost&p=1393641
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Posted by: mb911 Aug 2 2018, 05:21 PM
remember this guy ?? I think he sold it all to a 914 specialist in germany.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=111490&view=findpost&p=1393641
That was awesome for sure. Soooooo much time to build something like that..
Mark I applaud you for doing this.. Its allot of work and hope it pays off for you.
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Aug 2 2018, 06:24 PM
I think your new problem will be finding the time to do all these BIW commissions. You will need to give up the oil change and valve adjustment work!
To a customer a 'new' straight tub roller in primer will have a fixed value, regardless of the amount of time/materials it takes to get to that point. Unless they bring you their tub with sentimental value and an open check book to do whatever it takes. Look at the huge time/cost Michaels' /6 has required. Are you planning to do full metal prep before paint?
Posted by: peteyd Aug 2 2018, 07:25 PM
remember this guy ?? I think he sold it all to a 914 specialist in germany.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=111490&view=findpost&p=1393641
This frame fixture ended up in Holland. I think it’s in Arnos hands. I believe he’s willing to sell it as well.
Pete
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 2 2018, 07:46 PM
remember this guy ?? I think he sold it all to a 914 specialist in germany.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=111490&view=findpost&p=1393641
He said he cut it all up...
Posted by: peteyd Aug 2 2018, 08:00 PM
its on his homepage
www.914parts.eu
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 2 2018, 08:02 PM
Must had been another guy that I remember.
Posted by: McMark Aug 3 2018, 02:02 PM
They're HERE!!!
I have to finish up a 2.3 engine I'm building next week, but you can be sure I'll be playing with these after hours. Already have my Aubergine car up on the bench, so I'm gonna check that first. 
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Posted by: SirAndy Aug 3 2018, 02:09 PM
Posted by: Perry Kiehl Aug 3 2018, 02:16 PM
Beeyooteeful!
Posted by: peteyd Aug 3 2018, 05:52 PM
Posted by: rick 918-S Aug 14 2018, 11:24 AM
Nice going Mark and Andy! Thanks for getting the hard work getting these to the market Peter! 
Posted by: seanery Aug 15 2018, 12:53 AM
pretty bad ass Mark!
Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 15 2018, 01:03 AM
pretty bad ass Mark!
Say... didn’t you run off and join the circus?
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 23 2018, 02:42 PM
Posted by: seanery Oct 23 2018, 03:48 PM
Man, that sure was a long time ago!!
12 years later, I've been missing my 914 fix. I've been touring with concerts and other shows pretty much constantly since then. I need to plan for the future. Getting Eric to build me a car is part of that plan! =)
pretty bad ass Mark!
Say... didn’t you run off and join the circus?
Posted by: Andyrew Oct 23 2018, 08:11 PM
I don't like the looks of this.....
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 24 2018, 12:36 AM
I don't like the looks of this.....
I'll let @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=419 chime in if he wants to, lets just say there have been a few "issues" with those fixtures, which has in turn significantly slowed progress on my /6 build ...
Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 24 2018, 06:54 AM
I am fully aware of the delays and setbacks that happen when you tackle one of these builds. Of course having to do doing something over (twice) is problematic for progress too. 
Posted by: McMark Nov 5 2018, 07:30 AM
Sorry guys, it's been a crazy few months. 
But here's what I've learned since my last post.
Celette has nearly no real support for the 914. The only fully developed fixtures died when they released the MZ Tower setup. There are now only two 914 fixture sets in the Celette inventory: 1 in the US and 1 in Europe. I've seen the US set firsthand and I've seen a copy of the Euro set, and neither set is 100% correct.
This is what I was told when I inquired about ordering an official set for purchase.
So I rented the US set and have it here now. I've attached my Aubergine car and everything seemed to line up really well -- until I got to the shock towers. And it took me awhile to confidently decide that this set is incorrect in the shock tower fixtures. The definitive evidence was that the official US fixture set was indicating that my Aubergine car was essentially perfectly straight at the front A-arm mounts, rear A-arm mounts, rear trailing arm mounts (inner and outer), transmission mounts, BUT the front shock tower needed to go up by 6.5mm and the rear needed to go down by a whopping 16mm. These numbers are HUGE considering that ALL the other fixtures line up and this chassis shows no signs of accident damage. And finally, simply consider what sort of accident it would take to move ONLY the two front shock towers down 1/4" and the rears up over 1/2" without affecting the rest of the suspension alignment. It's impossible.
SO ANYONE WHO HAS ANY SHOP THAT RENTS THE 914 CELETTE FIXTURES MUST BE AWARE THAT THESE FOUR FIXTURES ARE INCORRECT AND SHOULD NOT BE USED.
After all of this roundabout effort and research, I've decided that the only way I can be confident in my Celette bench and fixtures is to build a set myself. I'm using the official US fixture set and my Aubergine car to make my set. I will be using modern technology to document each piece. Each fixture will be made up of multiple smaller pieces which I will have laser cut. Once I have all the building block parts, I'll remove fixtures one by one and assemble the component parts on the bench, in place. I'll then confirm accuracy of my piece before moving on to the next piece. When everything else is done I will document the shock tower fixtures as they are, before making the modifications necessary to make them correct. I know other people are taking a similar approach.
This is certainly not how I, or anyone else, thought this process was going to go. There were a lot of hopeful progress, but in the end these fixtures are too critical for me to accept anything that isn't quite right. In order for me to be fully confident in my work, I need to be fully confident in my fixtures. So I have to make my own, and I have to like how they turn out, before I can move on to Andy's car.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Nov 5 2018, 07:56 AM
Truly a class act. Andy's car is in good hands and all members in the future will benefit from your hard work and attention to detail if/when the time/need comes.
Posted by: Krieger Nov 5 2018, 08:34 AM
Good work Mark! What a pain. Maybe you could make your own sets to sell/rent. Maybe just the two defective ones?
Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 5 2018, 05:48 PM
Nice research Mark. Guess I am back to building a set too then. I have a rust free straight car to work off of too. Really in most cases a guy doesn't need heavy fixtures designed for withstanding the pulling forces of a collision repair. Most of what we do is related to rust repair and withstanding the pulling forces of a welding process. We all know how our chassis can move around while welding.
Posted by: mepstein Nov 5 2018, 06:01 PM
Wouldn’t the front towers be the same as the 911 fixtures.
Can you modify the existing fixtures rather than making new ones.
Posted by: McMark Nov 6 2018, 07:09 AM
Well, once I build mine and use them I was planning to just ship/bring everything your way. The MZ Towers make building these fixtures relatively easy. But building fixtures from scratch would be a larger endeavor. I know you're certainly up to the task, but just borrow mine when I'm done.
Can you modify the existing fixtures rather than making new ones.
Well, remember these aren't made by Porsche people. So unfortunately, the answer is no. The setup is approached differently (see pics below), and there's no reason to expect that the 'neutral' position of the chassis, over the bench, is the same height or fore/aft location. In fact, just looking at the Celette diagrams I can tell that the 911 chassis will sit closer to the bench than a 914 chassis, which means nothing will interchange.
911 Front Shock Tower
914 Front Shock Tower
Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 6 2018, 07:24 AM
Well, once I build mine and use them I was planning to just ship/bring everything your way. The MZ Towers make building these fixtures relatively easy. But building fixtures from scratch would be a larger endeavor. I know you're certainly up to the task, but just borrow mine when I'm done.
Cool,
I have rent money waiting. I will be laid up for awhile anyway. Gettin my own fixture installed the end of the month. LMK your projected time line. I have Juergen's car disassembled and ready to bench.
BTW: Need my windshield jig? I can send it to you.
Posted by: FlacaProductions Nov 6 2018, 06:58 PM
You guys are awesome taking this on. Quality.
Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2018, 09:01 AM
Got all the modeling done and got all the plates laser cut from 5/8" steel. Ordered 20' of 40mm solid steel rod. This stuff is all seriously heavy. I packed half of the steel plate parts into a 12"x6" box, and I could barely pick it up. Definitely confidence inspiring. 
I checked all the laser cutting first to make sure bolt holes were going to line up and to make sure I didn't make any other mistakes. One set of plates I made a dumb mistake, and the trailing arm bracket with the three holes didn't quite line up, so I had to fix and reorder those. But the second version came back perfectly. The laser shop also accidentally drilled holes on 2 sets of plates to 12mm instead of 10mm, so I got those redone as well.
I spent all of Sunday and Monday double checking the car on the bench, and then getting started making fixtures. The laser cut plates are working out just like I expected and I've got 4 fixtures made and it's working really well. Each piece has quite a bit of work. The front shock fixtures had to have the large circle piece machined with a specific angle on the outer edge. And the other fixtures pictured are for the two bolts where the steering rack/cover mount. That little ring had to be trimmed from 5/8" plate down to 10mm thick, as well as machined on the ID and OD to size. Oh, and drilling the 12mm pin hole through to 40mm rod is no joke. Those take 10-15m per hole going slow and letting the bit cool periodically.
So far everything has worked out. Each piece or process I make/do is working out. At the risk of sounding self-promotional, it's very satisfying to be able to see the payoff from all these years of experience with various fabrication skills. While these fixtures are fairly simple in appearance, the need for accuracy is where it gets tricky. I was really afraid of drilling the pin hole in the rod. Getting that perfect is terribly challenging. Being off by less than 1° would be make the piece unusable, and it MUST be drilled last.
I've gotta step away from fixtures for a couple days to get an engine test fired with my fuel injection set up, as well as build the bottom end of a 2270 engine. But I'm planning to be back building fixtures on Friday and should have all the critical ones done next week. I need to outsource machining on a couple pieces because my mini-lathe is not big enough to hold the piece. And there are a coupe plates that need to be a specific thickness and flatness. So those will need to go to a surface grinder.
Thanks for all the encouragement. This has been a huge delay and a ton of effort, but I appreciate all the positive comments. 
BTW: Need my windshield jig? I can send it to you.
I gotta make my own. I want a full set of Celette and body fixtures on hand here when I'm done.
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Posted by: BPic Nov 20 2018, 09:11 AM
Amazing stuff Mark!! Mad skills and patience to boot. 
It is very cool to see the passion you put into this project. I know it will eventually pay off for you but your time and $$ invested shows your commitment to the 914. Thank you!
Posted by: KELTY360 Nov 20 2018, 09:21 AM
One small step for man.......one giant leap for 914s.
Posted by: TravisNeff Nov 20 2018, 09:35 AM
I admire your perseverance and attention to detail on this, keep going!
Posted by: Krieger Nov 20 2018, 09:45 AM
Nice work! Is this one of the fixtures that doesn't fit inspiring this activity?
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Posted by: Cairo94507 Nov 20 2018, 11:02 AM
Amazing. It is comforting to know you will have the right tools for the job, should the need arise. I am sure SirAndy is very very happy too.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 20 2018, 11:38 AM
Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2018, 03:21 PM
Nice work! Is this one of the fixtures that doesn't fit inspiring this activity?
It is! The fixture itself is fine, it's just that the pin hole isn't right so the fixture is too low.
Hey Andy, while you're waiting for me to get this done, how about making the site read meta data and rotate pictures.
Or at least a button us admins can press to rotate pictures inline...
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 20 2018, 08:48 PM
Or at least a button us admins can press to rotate pictures inline... I have the code all ready and tested, just need to find time to plug it in ...
Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 21 2018, 01:07 PM
Nice. Several months back now I approached another shop about renting his stands. I planned on renting Celettes top fixtures. I would have soon found out about their failure. Since Celette scrapped the original fixtures you will have the only correct top fixture set for the new design now.
Posted by: McMark Dec 18 2018, 02:30 PM
Nearly done with the fixtures. A bunch of stupid 'normal life' stuff make things take way longer. But the majority of the fixtures are complete. I just have the following remaining:
Rear Shock Towers (designs sent to laser cutting, should be back this week)
Engine Mounts & Rear 'Donuts' (waiting for rear shock towers to be in place first)
Here's a few shots of the inaccurate fixtures. Remember that this car shows no evidence of crash damage and these pictures were taken with the car mounted to the official Celette Fixtures. The front A-Arm mounts (front and rear) and the rear trailing arm mounts (inner and outer), as well as the transmission mounts, were all in place and lined up perfectly 'out of the box'. So there's just no logical way that these gaps should exist.
And here's some shots of my fixtures:
Posted by: BPic Dec 18 2018, 02:37 PM
Quite impressive!! ![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: SirAndy Dec 18 2018, 02:48 PM
Posted by: Matty900 Dec 18 2018, 10:56 PM
Nice work!
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