Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 25 2018, 05:01 PM

After I made a post about my alternate location for an auxiliary oil cooler, I thought more details would be helpful.
First let me say that this was a piece of cake for the current project, as the right rear quarter panel was removed for rust repair and chassis stiffening. Due to the difficulty in properly locating the forward mounting holes, I don’t know how feasible this is for a car with the engine installed. When I put a (slightly smaller) cooler in this same area 25 years ago, I made no notes or kept any of the measurements, I just made it work, but at that time it was done with the engine out of the car.
After trial and error fitting of a cardboard mockup, I picked a Mocal 34 row, 235 matrix cooler, which measures 260mm by 280mm, or roughly 10 5/16” x 11 1/8” which doesn’t include the -12AN fittings. This is what I think to be the largest cooler you could get in that area ahead of the right rear wheel. This cooler has a capacity of .75 quarts, which is .20 of a quart more than the kit BAT offers to upgrade a 911 front oil cooler. This is a case where bigger is definitely better.
Since airflow in the rear quarter panels isn’t as good as the front fender , I added a 7” Spal puller fan that will be mounted directly to the oil cooler with a plastic mounting tie kit, which are very sturdy round zip tie fasteners that make it easy. The fan will be wired with a relay to a switch on the dash or an automatic inline switch (to be determined later). On my old install I tried to make the fan automatically switched, but it ran too much and the fan died. A testament to this set up is that I never knew the fan died, and oil temps never got over 220* even in the hot Tennessee summers. Since this is going to be a widebody hot-rod with flared rockers, I’m toying with the idea of incorporating a scoop in the rocker flare, but that too is undetermined.
Here’s a hardware list, that doesn’t include any oil lines, thermostat, or relay wiring for the fan.
1 Mocal A34A12 34 row -12AN 235 oil cooler
2 Mocal/Setrab ABKT-235 oil cooler bracket for 235mm core
1 BAT ABKT1 cooler/fan mounting tie kit
1 M8 x 1.25 x 60mm fully threaded cap screw (13mm hex)
2 M8 x 1.25 x 50mm fully threaded cap screw (13mm hex)
12 M8 washers
8 M8 x 1.25 nylon insert nuts
1 M8 x 1.25 weld nut

Even with the fender off it took more than one attempt to get it in the optimum location, which is as far forward as possible without interfering with the outer suspension console. Using the suspension console as the baseline level plane, the cooler is tilted down at the back about 5* give or take a degree.


Just for reference

Here's what the cooler looks like mounted. It's pretty big.


I wanted to make sure the cooler could be installed and removed with the fender on, I made sure there was no interference. I had the fender on and off several times during the test fitting process.
With the fender off it was easy to use the bracket as a reference where to mark and drill the 5/16” front mounting holes, which are 70mm apart.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 25 2018, 05:13 PM

Using masking tape I test mounted the fan to the cooler. I positioned it on the upper rear corner of the cooler, which exploits the dimple in the inner fender for the battery tray. You can also see the mounting bolts which are also used as stand offs.


The oil cooler mounting brackets have rubber pads to cushion the cooler.


The factory 911 front oil cooler uses three big thick rubber mounts that have M6 fasteners, so my choice of three mounting points with M8 fasteners will be more than adequate.

On my initial test fit I cut part of the top section of the front bracket to ensure fit around the cabin vent pipe in the quarter panel. I wasn't going to use the very outboard mounting holes anyway.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 25 2018, 05:18 PM

This shows the cooler bracket spaced 31mm out from the inner fender in the front, using the 50mm fully threaded cap screws nuts and washers. There are washers under every bolt head and nut. For fitting purposes I used plain nuts, but for the install nylon insert nuts will be used to prevent anything from backing out. Alternately you could use lock washers, but I wanted to keep it simple.

Upper front mount


Lower front mount


For the rear I used a surface weld nut that was tacked to the inner fender. In the rear the cooler is spaced out 60mm using the 60mm fully threaded cap screw with washers. This too will get nylon lock nuts for the final install.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 25 2018, 05:28 PM

So it’s all mounted nice and tidy, but how can I pass this on for future use? I used the vertical surface upper cross member on the firewall as a reference point, and butted my ruler up against the lip of the side panel. This is where you’ll measure from to make your reference marks to drill your mounting holes. Flush against the vertical edge of the firewall and the upper stop is the lip of the side panel.



From the upper reference point measure down 176mm and forward 61mm. This is where it’s a little tricky as I wanted a repeatable method that you could use. Keep the ruler flush against the vertical side of that panel and hold it against the inner wall, and set the sliding square at 176mm, this is your down measurement for the top hole. Then I used a shorter scale (ruler) measure a perpendicular straight line from the edge of the vertical ruler 61mm toward the front of the car. I didn’t bend the scale. This is the spot for your top hole. I must confess that this was easy with the battery tray not yet installed.
Continue down that same vertical line to 345mm, and then another perpendicular line 75mm forward for the lower mounting hole. Before drilling any holes measure between your two marks and make sure you’ve got 70mm. You can enlarge the holes a bit if you have to, and in a worst case scenario, you could employ some oversize washers.


The rear mount is very straight forward, which I’m not going to detail. The pictures tell all. You have much more access to install this mounting point.
After it’s all installed I’ll make a stone shield from some black plastic inner fender material, and make a follow up post.

This is how it measured out on this 914-6 chassis, I can’t promise that there isn’t a difference in a later style chassis, or some variance in your chassis. Double check and measure, check and measure again.

I’m not going to get into the front mounted cooler, or rear mounted cooler discussion. This is just how I decided to go. I know this might not be the best choice for a track car, and it’s not “GT correct”. My own opinion is that the trunk space a 914 provides is one of the more practical aspects these cars have to offer. I also am a fan of a full size, fully inflated spare tire. This approach preserves both.

You might get halfway through doing this and decide I’ve caused you more grief than help. Clearly, your results may vary.

Posted by: mb911 Sep 25 2018, 05:35 PM

Looks great.. If I ever build another project this will be an option even though I have the GT lines this does keep things simple.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 25 2018, 05:46 PM

Another shot of the rear mount


Inside the fender. The fan is taped on the cooler, but you can see how it fits in the recess of the inner fender

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 25 2018, 05:56 PM

The cooler, the brackets, the fan, and the (not shown) thermostat were all purchased from BAT, a great supplier of oil lines and oil cooling components.

Posted by: burton73 Sep 25 2018, 07:39 PM

Do you think a Boxster vent would work with this? Thinking of my V8 car that needs external oil cooling for its 930 Trans. It is set up for it and I have a new Telton gearbox oil cooler pump that came with the V8 car. Looks like a very clean way to mount instead of putting it under the rear trunk. It seems like it would be cooler where you are putting it.

Can you set this up to pull outside air?

Bob B

Posted by: amfab Sep 25 2018, 10:07 PM

Awesome! I am planning to put my cooler there on my build. So nice to have someone work out details ahead of me. I am curious what motor you are running?

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Sep 26 2018, 06:23 AM

boy that seems so tight! not sure that you will get enough air flow across the coils even with the fan, atleast not with out the scoop in the side like previous poster was asking, like cayman or boxster. I don't really like the scoop by itself but in this case it makes sense, but its functional,

Posted by: mepstein Sep 26 2018, 06:41 AM

There is probably still an oil cooler on the engine so I'm sure this will work for most situations. Many people get by without an auxiliary oil cooler. Some 6's run hotter than others, location and driving style come into play.

I removed the engine oil cooler on my 3.2 so I have no choice but to go to the front for max cooling.

Posted by: tomeric914 Sep 26 2018, 06:48 AM

I played with different locations for the oil cooler and found that the only location that works is in front with air forced through the cooler at speed.

The fan is too small, the assembly gives no room for airflow and the hot air from the cooler will continually recirculate within the fender doing nothing more than heating the fender.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 26 2018, 07:23 AM

This is scheduled to get a 230hp 2.7 with EFI.

Posted by: burton73 Sep 26 2018, 01:37 PM

Suck the fan air through the vent. The only way to test it to try it but I do not think that the ways guys are hanging them next to the exhaust and under the trunk would work as good as it is much hotter there. Vent and sealed duct will force outside air into the cooler. It will need to be tried to see for sure. Take and idea and test. isn't that what the factory does. That is where all of technology comes from. Yea fancy testing in a wind tunnel but the fan will pull air from the outside if set up that way


Bob B

Posted by: tomeric914 Sep 26 2018, 02:46 PM

Under the trunk works on 4 cyl cars with oil coming from a spin on adapter between the filter and engine. That oil is more liquid than on the 6 coming out of the engine. It's also on an engine with ~100hp. I ran one under the trunk with my 4 at track events for a couple of years and was successful at keeping the oil less than 220 deg F even on the hottest of days.

When I tried the same thing with the 3.0 six and a 12x12 Setrab cooler with a 12" diameter puller flowing a noticeable amount of air, I was seeing 260 deg F. Location was part of it; the fact that the oil is really foamy at that point (especially close coupled) was the other part of it.

That same 12x12 cooler in front laying flat keeps my oil temps at the track and street at about 190 deg F using a 200 deg F thermostat. I would theorize that the distance from back to front along with the many turns to get there reduces the foaminess of the oil.

Also consider the weight of the cooler, fan, oil and lines attached to the whole assembly. The 4 studs holding it on may not be enough in the long run, especially after hitting a few good bumps.

By no means am I dissuading the OP from what they are doing. Your mileage may vary, etc., etc.

Posted by: billh1963 Sep 26 2018, 02:47 PM

I've often wondered if a scoop around the sail panel or even one down low would look good?

The C7 Z06 has both (they are functional) and look good in my eye. A scoop down low would not be intrusive and would probably get a lot of air.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 26 2018, 02:49 PM

I believe you guys are talking about the difference between "best" and "good enough". In Perry's experience, the large cooler in the fender has worked well enough for the car it is in in the circumstances that he has had it in. It might not be good enough for a 24-hour race, but it doesn't have to be.

Likewise, the under-trunk-floor setups are not optimal but can be good enough for at least some uses.

--DD

Posted by: billh1963 Sep 26 2018, 02:50 PM

Found an old thread with pics:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=62387&st=0

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Sep 27 2018, 06:43 AM

On a street car, I'd add another cooler under the rear trunk before I'd put one up front, for reasons already stated.

For a track car, I wouldn't put it anywhere else than up front.

All the information I've been able to find says 210* is what you want, which is when the water in your oil will vaporize. Over 240 for extended periods isn't advisable.

A fresh tight engine will always run cooler than a tired one needing a rebuild; the old engine will have more blow-by in the case which will raise oil temps. So the fresh 230hp 2.7 going in this car will run cooler out of the box, than your old 2.0T engine that burns a quart every 500 miles.

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Sep 27 2018, 06:56 AM

Mine is up under the rear trunk with a good angle to it and seems to allow a sufficient amount of air to move thru it. I didn't have that fan wired up for the drive in Helen, and up the hills I topped out right at 230-235 but never went over that, and only hit that as a max during long steep hill climbing. Last year on the same hills and the year before in Banner Elk, NC, with the fan kicking on at about 220, it never went over 220 , verified with dip stick thermometer. I used to also see some pretty high oil temps here in the summer heat in SC just on the highway and this was why we put the aux oil cooler in in the first place, but with the aux it stays a good 20 degrees cooler. so I can see your point about not requiring a front cooler unless you are racing. I don't plan on tracking the car, and its cool to see that your set up in the rear is good enough even for a nice /6 motor! How far out are you from actually having that car on the road? have you posted a build thread with details of the rest of the restoration?

Posted by: r_towle Sep 27 2018, 07:26 AM

I think it’s a great idea!
Look at the 550 type loevers in the fender, those would be perfect, and age appropriate to let air in.

Posted by: PanelBilly Sep 27 2018, 11:34 AM

How about a scoop that pulls air from under the car and directs it up? First I’d see if it meets you needs the way it is. Looks like a clean installation to me.

Posted by: amfab Jan 31 2019, 09:54 PM

Hi Perry, I was wondering if you have an update regarding the effectiveness of the cooler in this location/configuration.

Thanks

-Andrew

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 21 2022, 09:06 AM

I just finished plumbing the cooler, thermostat, and return line to the tank, as well as wiring the relay for the fan. It’ll probably be a month or so before the engine gets installed. Here’s some follow up photos of the install.

Oil lines fabricated and fitted. Isolation mounts not installed yet.


Oil lines to thermostat, not yet secured

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 21 2022, 09:13 AM

Thermostat mounted


Custom return line to tank. It’s M26 at the tank and -12AN at the thermostat. I fab’d two brackets to route the line under the engine mount and clear of all the cables.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 21 2022, 09:23 AM

To the tank.


Fan is mounted directly to the cooler with special heavy duty round zip mounts that go through the fins. There’s a dense foam pad between the pressure points.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 21 2022, 09:27 AM

Rubber isolators are a perfect 30mm tall. I did have to cut off some of the stud on the end that bolts through the inner fender.


All mounted up.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 21 2022, 09:34 AM

I added a couple hose separators. I still have to fab a couple brackets and a stone shield.

The fan has a relay that has a switch under the dash.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 21 2022, 09:39 AM

As far as the efficacy, I have no doubt this is sufficient. I did the same type of install for a 3.0 conversion using a smaller cooler 27 years ago and it worked very well. This cooler is probably 20-30% larger.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 22 2022, 12:18 PM

Wrapped up the details. I wired a relay with a fuse for the fan, and mounted it to the battery tray.


I fab’d two small brackets to hold the stone shield.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 22 2022, 12:32 PM

Brackets installed.


I made the stone shield from a piece of plastic I got from Jay Mikesell ( RIP, former owner of PartsWerks). It’s the same material he used for the inner fender liners.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Feb 22 2022, 02:29 PM

How does any air get to it?

Clay

Posted by: Tdskip Feb 22 2022, 03:52 PM

Won't the fan take care of that?

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Feb 22 2022, 06:30 PM

This is getting a fully rebuilt EFI engine, which is going to run cooler than a 60k mile engine. It’s also got a double grill engine lid (and a stock one too) plus the cooler is a bit oversized, so I’m confident the cooler alone could be enough, but the fan is insurance. In the discussions with the owner, I told him I would add another cooler/fan setup under the rear trunk before going to a front cooler.

It’s an occasional use street hot rod. I don’t think it will see much use on really warm days either.

Posted by: aturboman Feb 23 2022, 04:35 PM

This is a 73 911 RS cooler I installed in the rear trailing part of the LR qtr.

Great for a street car, no running lines up front.

It fits so well its almost like it was meant for that application, sadly they are uber expensive now.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Feb 23 2022, 07:15 PM

Beautiful work, Perry. Looks great!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Feb 23 2022, 07:18 PM

What a great idea, running a 911 loop cooler in the rear fender of a 914. Not only no lines going all the ways to the front, but front trunk and spare tire fully preserved. And the late Bruce Anderson was a big fan of the loop-style coolers. If someone needed to, could this be reversed and run another one in the RH rear fender?

I wonder if this is an idea for @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9892 ?

Posted by: mb911 Feb 23 2022, 07:59 PM

Man if I could find a bunch of loop coolers I would make a bunch up. Pretty easy setup.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 23 2022, 08:04 PM

Maybe i'm the only one confused here but how exactly does that clear the rear tires?

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Feb 23 2022, 09:04 PM

Fair question, though it looks like the interference points are above the tire? The tightest spot in the rear fenders is often between the inner fender and the tire sidewall? Another photo or two might be illuminating, as this is a pretty extreme angle.

On the other hand, could a for-purpose loop cooler for the 914's rear fender extend the hard lines forward, over the top of the tire / close to the top of the inner fender, so that the fittings for the rubber lines are in front of the tires, whether high or low? Would extend the cooling area and shorten the rubber line runs…

Posted by: Tdskip Feb 24 2022, 07:54 AM

Great discussion.

If the look cooler works without a fan wouldn’t a more conventional radiator work without one? OR, if going to trouble to mount a conventional radiator the fan is a while-we-are-at-it thing anyway?

Posted by: mepstein Feb 24 2022, 10:39 AM

I think it depends on how much cooling you want and how much stop and go traffic you might run into.

My thought is if you can fit a loop cooler in that spot then why not go with a small modern cooler and a low profile fan pack. A loop cooler is going to do very little if you are sitting in traffic on a hot summer day. Especially when the blacktop is radiating 140 degrees up into the rear quarter.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Feb 24 2022, 12:31 PM

Have seen a few ways to add an external oil cooler on a 914, including a center front, paired front coolers at the corners, under the rear trunk floor, and now Perry's insanely clean & cool install. All of these were radiator style, I think? Have thought about a loop cooler for the front fenders—narrower than the 911 due to the car's design but doubled with two lines going across whether inside or outside of the front trunk. Even if the loops are very small, hard lines would add a lot of oil (and surface area) on the way forward, through both loops, the connections across the car, and the way back.

I've never thought about, much less seen, a 911 loop cooler in a 914's rear fender, or that it might fit.

Can see why Perry's setup would need a fan, as there might not be much if any airflow in there without a vent or ducting. Suspect the area above/behind the rear wheels sees a lot more air circulating than the area in front of the rear wheel, even if it isn't nearly as much as a front cooler would see.

Posted by: Tdskip Feb 24 2022, 03:09 PM

Makes sense - delta of effort is small enough to just include a fan.

Thanks

Posted by: willieg Jun 6 2022, 07:40 AM

Perry
Great documentation. Thank you.

Posted by: stevesc_us Jun 6 2022, 08:28 AM

Yet another option to consider. I never tracked my 6 in all the years I owned it, but this engine lid set up fabricated by Henry Schmidt at Supertech always provided sufficient cooling with my 3.2 motor transplant.

Posted by: JmuRiz Jun 6 2022, 10:18 AM

Always wondered where that car ended up. Does it have an on-cooler thermostat or a separate one?

I'm still hemming/hawing about where to put my cooler for my 2.8 6-conversion.
Under rear trunk, front cooler....or that engine lid one. I have a GT style lid that might work with the dual oil cooler fans

Posted by: stevesc_us Jun 6 2022, 10:44 AM

She is now owned by Freeman Thomas, who as you may be aware is a well-known car designer that worked at the Zuffenhausen factory in the 1980's and was the original designer of the Audi TT. The best part of this tid bit of history is that his inspiration for the TT was none other than the 914-6! Couldn't have asked for a more worthy caretaker to carry on the stewardship of cherishing my sweet 6 after my 25 years of ownership.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jun 6 2022, 12:37 PM

Although it seems we may spend more time under our cars than driving them the problem I am running into with my Aux. oil cooler location is ROAD CRUD.

The tires kick up everything on the road, water, sand, stones, bubble gum. Locating in the wheel well means the fan motor is going to be destroyed a lot quicker and the fins are going to be fouled up. I just yanked the failed horn the PO put in the front wheel well directly ahead of the front tire. A pound of dirt must have fallen out it when it hit the ground. Best place for the oil cooler has to be the front or under the engine lid, worst anywhere near a tire.

My oil cooler is almost behind the rear wheel and I am forever cleaning it. I don't need another job of relocating it either. Maybe an angled Lexan deflector to keep it cleaner?

Posted by: 914werke Jun 6 2022, 05:49 PM

I like that loop cooler but at nearly $600 Im sure you can get a decent traditional cooler, fan & lines for that!
Oh & kudo's Perry, sano setup!

Posted by: colingreene Jun 6 2022, 07:46 PM

Not that anyone asked, This is what i did for my 2258cc motor that always ran on the hot side.
I used a Setrab Oil cooler sandwich adaptor with a thermostat in it to some -12 lines.
the lines run out and around the motor back to the cooler. the fans are controlled by a thermostatic switch to keep oil temps regulated.

I made some mounts to hang it off the back of the tin and the front of the trans mount so when I remove the motor it all comes out as one part.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: Tdskip Jun 6 2022, 10:53 PM

Thanks for posting that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16526