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Posted by: trekkor Jun 17 2005, 08:34 PM

braided brake lines, 8 speed bleeders and my Hoosiers.

Any advice on the brake line install. Seems pretty straight forward.

KT

Posted by: redshift Jun 17 2005, 08:37 PM

Did you get the cross-drilled brake lines?

M

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 17 2005, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (redshift @ Jun 17 2005, 07:37 PM)
Did you get the cross-drilled brake lines?

i hear they vent much better!

Andy

Posted by: McMark Jun 17 2005, 09:27 PM

The rears suck. Those bastards are one of the few times that I really really really wish I had room for a lift.

Posted by: trekkor Jun 24 2005, 07:55 PM

The rear lines were a little testy.

Got through it though.

I'd guess I spent about three hours changing out the lines, Speedbleeders, and bleeding out the system.

Test drove with the complete upgraded system.

Porterfields- race pads
Motul
Stainless brake lines.

Wow... I now have BRAKES.

When I step on the brake pedal, it's like stompin' on a brick.

Can't wait 'til Sunday.

KT

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 24 2005, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jun 24 2005, 06:55 PM)
When I step on the brake pedal, it's like stompin' on a brick.

FlatSpot™, here i come ...

Posted by: Travis Neff Jun 24 2005, 08:06 PM

The easy way to remove the rears is to cut the line before the fitting, put a socket on there - other side backed by a wrench and it comes right off. Going on sucks. Easiest if the engine is out and you can do it sitting in the engine bay area.

Posted by: trekkor Jun 24 2005, 08:18 PM

I had the most trouble with the retaining "U- clips".

KT

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 24 2005, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jun 17 2005, 06:34 PM)

Any advice on the brake line install. Seems pretty straight forward.

KT

The Cap'n says, "Yeah, install 'em in the trash barrel, where they belong", but that's just his opinion, he could be wrong.
Seriously, if you'd done the same job with new (safer, and FAR longer lasting) OE style hoses you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I wish you safe driving and hope you service and inspect them often. And don't drive behind me. The Cap'n

Posted by: trekkor Jun 24 2005, 08:51 PM

QUOTE
Seriously, if you'd done the same job with new (safer, and FAR longer lasting) OE style hoses you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Please don't take this as an insult.

What is that statement based on?
I've heard only good about the aftermarket SS lines.

Why would they fail before a rubber hose?

KT

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jun 24 2005, 09:07 PM

Now you have done it.... You got the Capt'n started on the stainless steel brake lines!

He bases his opinion on some 30+ years of experience with 914s.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 24 2005, 09:07 PM

What's wrong with them? The failure mode of rubber lines is a deterioration of braking, swelling inside, weakening of the walls, maybe a sticking caliper. By far the most common failure mode of the SS braided teflon lines is sudden, absolute, and total loss of braking. In 32 years in the business, I've seen ONE stock line break at the end. In that same time, I've personally seen FOUR SS lines fail. Cars with SS lines make up maybe one tenth of one percent of the cars I work on. A number of folks on the Audi 20v list have personally experienced the same type of failure. MAJOR pucker factor! What's that tell you? Most people with any practical knowledge of brakes recommend frequent and thorough visual inspection of the SS lines, including tugging, twisting, checking for worn spots in the sheathing, and a real bright light to work with), and replacement every couple of years. Damaged sheathing can saw through almost any material in a few miles/minutes. The more enlightened manufacturers have begun to install a layer of another material in an attempt to minimize this problem, but you lose the "trick" look so many people want. That's why I don't like them (and will NOT install them on customers' cars) Hey, if they were that good, why don't the factories put them on every performance car? .......... The Cap'n

Posted by: trekkor Jun 24 2005, 10:07 PM

What caused the SS lines to fail?

My car sees less than two hundred miles per month, so I'm not worried.

KT

Posted by: lapuwali Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM

This really has been discussed to death. I'm tempted to just say "do a search", but I'll repeat myself just as the Cap'n has.

There are two main problems. One, 90% of the braided lines on sale aren't tested using the DOT procedures to ensure lines don't fail, esp. when they're kinked or subjected to sudden whip stress, like if they're a tad too short and the wheel goes to full droop. Two, dirt gets into the braid and slowly works away at the soft inner Teflon line. It often migrates towards the joints, where it cannot easily be seen. After awhile, the inner line gets weakened to the point where it simply fails under pressure. Cleaning them doesn't help, as you simply can't get the dirt out from under the braid. Covering the line completely in something when new helps a great deal, but once the dirt is there, it's there and doing it's slow sandpaper act.

I've had the second failure mode happen to me, and it really gets your attention. Believe me, as the Cap'n said, if you'd used fresh rubber lines, it would feel 99% the same. For track only or track mostly use, the braided stuff is probably fine, as you're going (hopefully) to be taking a good look at the brakes regularly, and you can schedule replacing the lines periodically before they fail.

I like braided lines a lot. For one thing, it's really easy to make up your own custom lines for various things, using off-the-shelf line and fittings. I've done this with two motorcycles over the years, and trusted by life to my work here. I also covered one set entirely in clear tubing at installation time, and the other in heat shrink at install time. Bike lines are easy to inspect, so it's not so big a deal.

For a regular street car, however, they're mostly out of sight and out of mind. The slow, gradual, feelable decline of rubber lines are vastly preferable to the sudden, no warning failure of braided lines on a car I'm not going to want to examine constantly. I hate replacing brake lines, so the chore of doing so regularly with braided lines is just a hassle on a street mostly car.

In your case, the braided lines are probably fine, but be prepared to get another set and swap them out in a season or two.

Posted by: Britain Smith Jun 25 2005, 01:17 AM

My stock rubber line blew on me one night when Brad and I were bleeding the lines. It split right in half.

-Britain

Posted by: grantsfo Jun 25 2005, 01:46 AM

Thats great Trekkor!

Had HPH work on my engine yesterday. Rich says he cant believe it was even running. Valves had no clearence on two cylinders and injectors and seals were completely screwed up. Also installed Pertronics new plugs, etc. I still have a bad cylinder that isnt firing completely at low RPM.

The car actually has power now! Its amazing how much power was degraded over time without me noticing.

Have my new wheels and tires back from Roger Kraus - all holding air now.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jun 25 2005, 06:01 AM

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Jun 24 2005, 11:46 PM)
Thats great Trekkor!

Had HPH work on my engine yesterday. Rich says he cant believe it was even running. Valves had no clearence on two cylinders and injectors and seals were completely screwed up. Also installed Pertronics new plugs, etc. I still have a bad cylinder that isnt firing completely at low RPM.

The car actually has power now! Its amazing how much power was degraded over time without me noticing.

Have my new wheels and tires back from Roger Kraus - all holding air now.

Good teener kinda week then.
Great to here you car has more power Grant. Now you can really smoke that six

Hope you race pads and new brakes give you more braking control. It would be a damn shame to flat spot them new tiars. Curious why you chose race compound over street. Make sure you follow the bedding in process.

Posted by: bd1308 Jun 25 2005, 06:46 AM

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Jun 25 2005, 01:46 AM)
I still have a bad cylinder that isnt firing completely at low RPM.

burned valve?

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 25 2005, 08:48 AM

QUOTE (Britain Smith @ Jun 24 2005, 11:17 PM)
My stock rubber line blew on me one night when Brad and I were bleeding the lines. It split right in half.

-Britain

And how old was it? The Cap'n

Posted by: redshift Jun 25 2005, 08:53 AM

I would much prefer the linings closing up, to a saw cutting them in half.

M

Posted by: trekkor Jun 25 2005, 09:36 AM

Yeah Joe, wouldn't that choke if I went out and destroyed my never-been-used Hoosier's?

I'll try and avoid that.

Race pads have been on for some time now.
These were recommended. I figured " Why not"?

so far so good. Problem lies in the driver's seat.

To limit the wear on the new slicks, I'll be using the my Yok's as practice tires on the a.m. runs and any "fun runs".

I've gotten really fast at changing wheels.

As to the line wear factor, these lines I'm using are Russell's street legal versions. They have clear sheathing over the ends that attach to the hose ends.

And they are D.O.T. approved.

I'm hoping the SS horror stories are from way back when, and not last week.

KT

Posted by: J P Stein Jun 25 2005, 10:31 AM

I did a "driver training" thingy last year. Amongst the training was threshold braking from 60 mph....or so

It wasn't as revealing as the skid pad, but worthwhile nonetheless. It showed my braking to be OK which gives one more confidence in getting the car slowed without boogering up the tires.

The new tires have so much more braking capability
that I've had to try readjusting my butt to deal with em' and this is not an easy thing.....God has gotten further away

Posted by: ! Jun 25 2005, 12:12 PM

QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Jun 24 2005, 07:07 PM)
Now you have done it.... You got the Capt'n started on the stainless steel brake lines!

He bases his opinion on some 30+ years of experience with 914s.

Just doan say RTV

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 25 2005, 12:17 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jun 25 2005, 07:36 AM)

I'm hoping the SS horror stories are from way back when, and not last week.

KT

They're not, unless you consider last summer the distant past. The Cap'n

Posted by: trekkor Jun 25 2005, 01:39 PM

How old we're the SS lines that failed?

Thanks,

KT

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 25 2005, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jun 25 2005, 11:39 AM)
How old we're the SS lines that failed?

Thanks,

KT

I dunno about the ones I've personally witnessed, but the 2 or 3 instances reported on the Audi 20v list were recent installs, and the cars were on the track, I think. Ya know, get it ready for the track and go run the p*ss out of it .......... The Cap'n

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jun 25 2005, 04:28 PM

Trek, I wouldn't worry bout them Lines. I had SS braided lines on my 928 for 12 years. Never had a problem cept once the line got close to the sawybar end link. My fault didn't notice it when doing suspension work.

The damn line tried to saw right into the aluminum rod.
SOOOO If you did it right you won't have no problem. I always keep excellelnt maintenance on my cars So nothing gets totally out of hand.

Yea JP my last school we did the threshold braking thing.
Started at 4 cones in before hitting brakes. bumpy surface and some loose bits. by the time I was done I was going in seven cones and was WAY into 3rd gear.
I was just breaking loose, an able to let up get the wheel turning and hammer again just tilting the cone. Instructor nearly shit his pants. Stock calipers 17mm M/C just different pads. OH andthe SS lines that are shitty

Posted by: neo914-6 Jun 25 2005, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jun 24 2005, 06:51 PM)

QUOTE
Seriously, if you'd done the same job with new (safer, and FAR longer lasting) OE style hoses you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Please don't take this as an insult.

What is that statement based on?
I've heard only good about the aftermarket SS lines.

Why would they fail before a rubber hose?

KT

Brad advised and put them on my V8 street car...

Posted by: J P Stein Jun 25 2005, 07:27 PM

The Cap'n has pet peeves....more than most

Lessee, there's SS brake lines, Pertronix, holes in the firewall (even with covers).....there must be more, but those are the only ones I know I've violated

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 25 2005, 07:39 PM

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jun 25 2005, 05:27 PM)
The Cap'n has pet peeves....more than most

Lessee, there's SS brake lines, Pertronix, holes in the firewall (even with covers).....there must be more, but those are the only ones I know I've violated

RTV. Stupid people. Walmart. The Cap'n

Posted by: Travis Neff Jun 25 2005, 07:41 PM

The differences is how the SS lines age and wear vs rubber. Rubber swells and you sticky calipers - slowly over time. SS, you can't see if there is a problem uder the sheathing, and when if fails it is big - vs. a stuck caliper. I guess it is safer that you are "stuck" at a stoplight vs. not being able to stop for it. If you are on to of your brake system all the time with good maintenance, it's all good, either way.

Posted by: trekkor Jun 27 2005, 01:45 PM

Brake report:

Ran an a/x this weekend.
The course had three very fast straights with three very short braking zones.

Most cars were getting into the 70-80 mph range.
Each braking zone was stained up with skid marks.
My older Yokohama's were locking up easier than the new Hoosier's.

I think everyone without anti-lock braking was leaving rubber and smoke.

My brakes were *very* reliable. No problems to speak of.
I highly recommend .

KT

Attached image(s)

Posted by: redshift Jun 27 2005, 01:50 PM

QUOTE (Neo914 @ Jun 25 2005, 07:17 PM)

Brad advised and put them on my V8 street car...

my god he's a murderer too...

M