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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Has anyone else experienced trouble
Posted by: ChrisFoley Nov 1 2018, 02:10 PM
We have to remove a brand new windshield to replace all the New trim clips made by a popular vendor. They're so brittle they all break as soon as you try to install the trim. 
More than 3 hours of labor generated by using substandard parts. Seems unfair to charge my customer and I'm not happy about eating that either, except that I'm the one who recommended the vendor. Never again. 
Buyer beware. I'm going back to Genuine Porsche.
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Nov 1 2018, 02:20 PM
the factory trim clips are the only answer, we have found that in this situation, having to remove the windshield to replace the clips, it is best to use the highest quality possible. ONLY the factory clips will do
We have to remove a brand new windshield to replace all the New trim clips made by a popular vendor. They're so brittle they all break as soon as you try to install the trim.
More than 3 hours of labor generated by using substandard parts. Seems unfair to charge my customer and I'm not happy about eating that either, except that I'm the one who recommended the vendor. Never again.
Buyer beware. I'm going back to Genuine Porsche.
Posted by: raynekat Nov 1 2018, 03:02 PM
I also have had many trim clips break from a popular vendor here.
So I'm pulling the windshield to replace the broken clips.
With what I'm hearing, I'll be replacing all 19 of the clips from the popular vender with Porsche factory parts.
I agree.
It's a complete waste of time and money to have to yank the windshield, clean up and replace the brand new butyl that just went in, get more clips, and get the windshield back in the car.
What a bunch of krappola!
I don't want to pull the entire windshield again to replace any more broken clips.
Gads!!!!
Posted by: Shadowfax Nov 1 2018, 03:25 PM
I broke one when trying to drive it in. Rest seemed OK. I don't have the windshield in yet. Wonder if my clips are from the same popular vendor?
Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 1 2018, 05:22 PM
If the vendor is one that is responsive to customer feedback, perhaps you could contact them and see what you can work out with them?
--DD
Posted by: michael7810 Nov 1 2018, 06:11 PM
I had the same issue but someone told me to test fit the trim before installing the glass. To fix the issues I shimmed the clips with about 1/16” and they did not break.
Posted by: mepstein Nov 1 2018, 06:30 PM
That sucks. Not a job you want to do 2X.
Posted by: HansJan Nov 1 2018, 07:37 PM
This is concerning.
How are the aftermarket parts breaking? Is it that the plastic pin snaps, or is the entire piece breaking?
I’m very wary about this, because I’m about to do my first windshield job.
Earlier I lost one of the new clips, took and old one and installed it with a pop-rivet. 
Posted by: raynekat Nov 1 2018, 07:53 PM
The clip itself is breaking.
And having to shim these clips so they don't break.....well that's a bunch of Mr. Ed doo doo.
If you can't make a part that functions correctly, why waste the time.
Poor QC if you ask me.
Posted by: raynekat Nov 1 2018, 07:54 PM
That sucks. Not a job you want to do 2X.
You can say that again Mark.
It was a pain to 1st pull the windshield without breaking it and then cleaning up all the old butyl primer and butyl itself off both the windshield and the pinch weld area.
I was not a happy camper.
Posted by: HansJan Nov 2 2018, 07:49 AM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18263 could this be caused by using the wrong size butyl-cord?
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 2 2018, 07:54 AM
While not needing to bash the vendor, it would be helpful to know who to avoid regarding this part.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Nov 2 2018, 08:08 AM
While not needing to bash the vendor, it would be helpful to know who to avoid regarding this part.
I recommend following this advice:
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 2 2018, 08:15 AM
It seems anymore OE and OEM can differ. So it's a Porsche dealer parts department purchase only?
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Nov 2 2018, 08:19 AM
The factory clips are a bit flexible to allow for the chrome to snap home. They have to be able to flex back and forth for this to happen. There are often many products not made in the right consistency or materials that look great but just do not work in the application.
We are happy that the factory still makes the clips and always stock several hundred for fear of them discontinuing them !!!!!
Posted by: Shadowfax Nov 2 2018, 08:26 AM
It seems anymore OE and OEM can differ. So it's a Porsche dealer parts department purchase only?
I ordered some from Pelican last night. Said they had 29 in stock. Only 10 left now...
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 2 2018, 09:17 AM
Here's an example. Pelican. The less expensive of the 2 offered is numbered 914-541-921-11 M260 and listed O.E.M. with a German flag in the ad for $2.
Next is 914-541-921-11-OEM @$3.25. Listed as 'PORSCHE Genuine Parts'.
While seeming to be the same offering other than the cost, the discription reads slightly different.
Posted by: bbrock Nov 2 2018, 09:22 AM
Here's an example. Pelican. The less expensive of the 2 offered is numbered 914-541-921-11 M260 and listed O.E.M. with a German flag in the ad for $2.
Next is 914-541-921-11-OEM @$3.25. Listed as 'PORSCHE Genuine Parts'.
While seeming to be the same offering other than the cost, the discription reads slightly different.
The O.E.M. with the flag is a brand name and I think very deceptive. I fell for that one. The part I got was fine, but not actually original equipment manufacturer that I thought I was getting.
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 2 2018, 10:13 AM
O.E.M. vs OEM. The portion that presses in is off center to the rectangular piece. The rectangular piece has a taper on one long side. Should the taper be on the inside edge of the frame? I can see where if the offset is set wrong it might stress the part putting the trim on.
Posted by: Chi-town Nov 2 2018, 11:05 AM
Odd question but what temp is it there when these broke?
Posted by: raynekat Nov 2 2018, 02:22 PM
Odd question but what temp is it there when these broke?
Warm (+70F) or cool (50's), it didn't seem to matter.
I think the real problem is the type of plastic used.
It is just not flexible or ductile enough.
You can just look at these clips wrong it seems like and they just snap in half.
I'm finding that many times these after market parts have very minimal QC.
They just check to see if they fit (sometimes not even that) and don't test on how they actually function or hold up in normal use or if installation of their part is easy or not?
Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 2 2018, 10:45 PM
Lets look at the failure mode on the clips. Is it breaking off at the shaft? or on the indentation? There are 3 manufacturers of the part as far as I know.
Porsche,
M260
and Myself.
I have sold over 2500 of these and if these are mine (I suspect they may be as Chris buys parts from me), please help me to address these. We will be testing pulling some and comparing to the factory one plasticity. Previous tests were nearly identical.
We do have the ability to use a less dense nylon or other materials.
Also for those of you that prefer the 8mm butyl chord, we have it.
https://www.shop.914rubber.com/Butyl-Cord-8mm-x-15-8mmBC.htm?categoryId=-1
1/4" is way too small
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: raynekat Nov 3 2018, 12:40 AM
I can't speak for others, but this is where mine have been breaking.
At the thin spot where the arrow is pointed.
Obviously this is the groove where the trim snaps into.
The nose section of the clip must pivot a little to allow the trim to snap into the groove.
Seems like the plastic is too brittle for this to happen in a reliable manner.
Posted by: jmitro Nov 3 2018, 05:37 AM
thanks for posting this concern; I just installed my windshield and was just about to install the trim; I guess I'll not be surprised if they break
Posted by: mepstein Nov 3 2018, 05:51 AM
It seems anymore OE and OEM can differ. So it's a Porsche dealer parts department purchase only?
I ordered some from Pelican last night. Said they had 29 in stock. Only 10 left now...
If you want Porsche brand parts and have a Porsche dealer nearby, you can order from their parts dept. no shipping charge and the parts usually arrive in a day. They also give you a week to return them at no charge. I don’t order a lot of stuff this way but sometimes it’s really convenient.
Posted by: Bartlett 914 Nov 3 2018, 08:08 AM
Maybe something changed along the way. I have had no problems with the clips breaking. I have had a problem with them holding the trim in place. I have gone through 2 sets of upper trim with them blowing off. I currently no longer have trim on my car. looks ugly
Posted by: 76-914 Nov 3 2018, 08:21 AM
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 3 2018, 12:18 PM
The factory ones to break over time. Many of us have experienced the trim departing the car. I did a little more looking at the instructions and thought about the technique I used to install my last windshield.
My conclusion -
Yes you can use the 9.5mm butyl, but the way I installed it was by leaving the backing on, heating it on low with a heat gun and using a 12" metal ruler to flatten it.
I did it this way because I wanted more surface area to bond to. The net result is a thinner area, but more surface to bond to.
The factory actually says use the 8mm, BUT and here's the interesting part, the factory butyl had a wire that was used to heat it internally to make it more pliable.
The primer is recommended, and I installed without on a clean new windshield. There is actually a better primer made to bond to the glass and react with the butyl specifically that I can get. I'm bringing some in this next week. It would be the best option.
What we are doing -
In the next week we are bringing in some clips from the dealer and evaluating specifically tensile strengths of both and materials. We may have a "better than factory " material available, we just didn't go there initially as these are a pretty simple part, so matching material was the option we chose. Nice thing about making our own parts is that we can change out material at any point.
More as this progresses. Also, any pictures of failure are GREATLY appreciated as the break will tell us about the mode of failure. Mark, did you save any broken ones?
Thanks
Posted by: michael7810 Nov 4 2018, 06:09 AM
I can't speak for others, but this is where mine have been breaking.
At the thin spot where the arrow is pointed.
Obviously this is the groove where the trim snaps into.
The nose section of the clip must pivot a little to allow the trim to snap into the groove.
Seems like the plastic is too brittle for this to happen in a reliable manner.
That is where m8 e broke as well
Posted by: buck toenges Nov 4 2018, 11:35 AM
I have used Mark's clips and broke a bunch while installing. I could never just use my thumb to insert the clip into the hole so I used a small socket and hammer to install. I assumed that is why I broke so many installing them. I actually had to grind off some of the male part that inserts into the hole to get them to seat. I then tried some silicone at the hole site to get them to seat better. I assumed that was a situation of my "Skill set" compared to most of you guys. I am still a ways off from installing my windshield so I will sit back and see how this plays out.
Buck
I am not kicking Mark. I am just telling of my experience.
Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 4 2018, 12:17 PM
That's why I'm asking. Please do post up pics.
Posted by: jsaum Nov 4 2018, 05:28 PM
I’ve been in the plastic injection molding industry for 36 years. Some of things I would look at is the same material being used. Are you using recycled materials or too high of a mix of reground material. Also compare where the OEM part is gated to your part. Direction of flow will determine part strength. Material can become degraded if it is being processed in to large of a machine. PM me if you have questions or can’t find a cause. I would be glad to look at some parts for you.
Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 4 2018, 05:58 PM
you can check my build thread I brought this up back in July when I did this on my car as some may remember , now many in this thread have seen the same thing happened that happened to me while installing my trim. I had three or four brand new clips snap there was nothing wrong with my window alignment or the size of butyl used or my trim. In fact i was so frustrated i did post this same question back then and i did pm the maker of the clips, and in frustraion i told 914rubber that they really needed to look at these and make a change and that i knoew they could do better. I got the butyl from 914rubber i got the new trim and clips from them and i got the window from Porsche, and it was installed by the Porssche inataller. i actually put 4 of the original clips that came out back in where the rubber brand snapped and those all held the trim. i do have one i know is not holding my trim at that one spot because it broke but i am not pulling my new trim or window to replace that one. I agree with George on this one , order original from your dealer for now.
Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 4 2018, 08:39 PM
We did do our gating differently. And we do a a percentage of recycled material that is used. we can run virgin, and or change to a glass infused delrin. I'm thinking that we will do a preliminary and see when everything falls, possibly utilizing a better material. The feed back we have received on was mostly very good, but even if there is a small problem we will fix it. We also have an idea for a way to check fitment prior to glass being installed that would be handy too.
Posted by: jacksun Nov 5 2018, 04:23 AM
HI, Would it be possible to change the geometry of the clip to allow installation without removing the windshield?
Posted by: ChrisFoley Nov 5 2018, 10:20 AM
Here are two pics of failed parts, typical of what we experienced when setting the trim:
The failure is not thru the thin hinge section.
We also had failures of the ears which go thru the hole, just from pushing the into the hole or from setting the pin.
I've frequently re-used original clips that were removed from cars (by pushing the pin out thru the back) more than 30 years after installation at the factory. The hardest part is finding an appropriately sized pin to set them in place.
Posted by: raynekat Nov 5 2018, 10:43 AM
Similar to the failures on mine....
Here are two pics of failed parts, typical of what we experienced when setting the trim:
The failure is not thru the thin hinge section.
We also had failures of the ears which go thru the hole, just from pushing the into the hole or from setting the pin.
I've frequently re-used original clips that were removed from cars (by pushing the pin out thru the back) more than 30 years after installation at the factory. The hardest part is finding an appropriately sized pin to set them in place.
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 5 2018, 10:56 AM
hard to imagine why the failure occurs in that specific area and not where one might consider the weakest point. not a solution but checkout the labeling on this. I've had a set of 20 for years. MADE IN GERMANY. I wonder if the recycled material mix is a factor?
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 5 2018, 11:40 PM
It appears to be a materials issue. It did shear. The pressure was transferred to the lip that is holding the body. From what I can see I believe we may have got a batch that has a higher recycled contentment than advertised we are checking the certs on the material from our vendor now.
Posted by: SteveL Nov 6 2018, 07:23 AM
I haven't bought or used any of these windshield clips (but will need to in the future), but it is great to see the the vendor partnering to resolve the issue, with honesty and straight forward answers. Thanks Mike. 
Posted by: HansJan Nov 7 2018, 09:46 AM
HI, Would it be possible to change the geometry of the clip to allow installation without removing the windshield?
Totally agree with this.
Original ones are still available at Porsche?
But an improved design would really make it worth the excersize.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Nov 7 2018, 10:15 AM
Original ones are still available at Porsche?
Yes, readily available for less than $2.50 each.
Posted by: davep Nov 8 2018, 09:05 PM
Some of things I would look at is the same material being used. Are you using recycled materials or too high of a mix of reground material. Also compare where the OEM part is gated to your part. Direction of flow will determine part strength. Material can become degraded if it is being processed in to large of a machine. PM me if you have questions or can’t find a cause. I would be glad to look at some parts for you.
Very good advice. Gating is very important. Also the processing temperature and timing can cause degradation. We had a poor supplier that made polypropylene tubs that were as fragile as glass instead of being tough.
Posted by: jsaum Nov 8 2018, 10:05 PM
It appears to be a materials issue. It did shear. The pressure was transferred to the lip that is holding the body. From what I can see I believe we may have got a batch that has a higher recycled contentment than advertised we are checking the certs on the material from our vendor now.
What material are you using?
Posted by: jsaum Nov 8 2018, 10:18 PM
We did do our gating differently. And we do a a percentage of recycled material that is used. we can run virgin, and or change to a glass infused delrin. I'm thinking that we will do a preliminary and see when everything falls, possibly utilizing a better material. The feed back we have received on was mostly very good, but even if there is a small problem we will fix it. We also have an idea for a way to check fitment prior to glass being installed that would be handy too.
Plastic molecules align in the direction of flow and are strongest in that direction and weakest in the opposite. If you can tell me the grade I can take a look at the material data sheet. You’ll want a material that has a good flexural modulus. Also look at the elongation at break numbers. I would think an Nylon 66/ ST801 might be a good choice for these parts. Gf delrin might be too brittle. Any GF content isn’t going to allow the part to flex.
Posted by: Rob-O Nov 8 2018, 11:13 PM
I don’t think nylon would be a good choice. I’d guess there were initially a PP, with some carbon black added in for color and to help stiffness. The flex mod numbers would be sufficient for this.
Posted by: jfort Nov 9 2018, 10:22 AM
I posted about this issue earlier with regard to substandard rod bolts. Not sure of the difference between an indicated "OEM" and "O.E.M." but at least one of them is a Chinese company. Right? Which is which? How can one be sure if the part is Chinese-made? Sellers of Chinese junk should be required required to indicate country of origin.
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 9 2018, 10:54 AM
The OEM/O.E.M. thing is weird. The clip listing at pelican caught my eye. O.E.M. is the company. I think. 
What ever OEM is makes the parts for whom?
Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 9 2018, 11:15 AM
We did do our gating differently. And we do a a percentage of recycled material that is used. we can run virgin, and or change to a glass infused delrin. I'm thinking that we will do a preliminary and see when everything falls, possibly utilizing a better material. The feed back we have received on was mostly very good, but even if there is a small problem we will fix it. We also have an idea for a way to check fitment prior to glass being installed that would be handy too.
Plastic molecules align in the direction of flow and are strongest in that direction and weakest in the opposite. If you can tell me the grade I can take a look at the material data sheet. You’ll want a material that has a good flexural modulus. Also look at the elongation at break numbers. I would think an Nylon 66/ ST801 might be a good choice for these parts. Gf delrin might be too brittle. Any GF content isn’t going to allow the part to flex.
I don’t think nylon would be a good choice. I’d guess there were initially a PP, with some carbon black added in for color and to help stiffness. The flex mod numbers would be sufficient for this.
I don't know the answer but I am sure you guys will figure this out, it is definitely an issue of being too brittle and not enough flex. there is a good bit of pressure/tension on this part at some locations where the trim is holding onto this, or supposed to. I am sure its a balance of finding enough strength and yet flex with out flexing too much or it wont hold that way either, seems like common sense, but will take some more R& D to figure out where the best balance lies. I would say find some OEM(true Porsche oem not O.E.M.) to test for strength and flex. Like I said, the ones that were in place on my car were original and I ended up pulling or pushing out the pins from the back side to extract the ones that broke and reused those pins to put back in my original clips that we removed when the original glass was pulled and new was installed. Those held just fine on the re-install, but I know I have several clips , the new ones, that snapped off and are not holding the trim at at least 2 locations but once I had the corners in place and held down I was not going to pull it all back up, but I really should. and later on I probably will but installing this trim was such a bit*& I just don't want to try that again for a while and not with out sourcing all new clips and oh the trouble with pulling glass in order to do it - well I did get 2 of the broken clips pulled and new ones installed with glass in place but I don't think I could do that in all locations. I do applaud you for seeing and addressing the issue and making strides to correct it, Thank you. I know you will figure it out!.
Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 10 2018, 12:36 PM
We've done some research on these over the last few days and are making some modifications.
Our conclusion is that yes these can be used it's not impurities in the material that is causing the issue. There is a very slight step in the mold that is more critical in tolerance than we had realized. It actually holds the clip just slightly off the mounting surface. It it is pushed past this the entire clip rests fully on the body. This takes up some of the tolerance needed to push the aluminum clip in.
We have a solution that should work better and allow for no clip breakage when you go to install the trim.
We are revising our product to include the spacers that are flexible, and including a piece of windshield trim (that we also make) about 2" so that you can test each clip prior to windshield install. we used this technique yesterday successfully without breakage, but will be including these in a kit of 25 with the test piece for the same price as just the 19 clips.
I will have Matt post up more on this this next week.
..now back to the new airplane.
Posted by: raynekat Nov 10 2018, 02:04 PM
Yes, it makes sense to offer more than the 19 clips as things do happen.
Sometimes you can lose a pin or one of the clips might have a small defect that gets missed when they are packaged up.
So it's nice to have at least 3 or 4 extra clips when you embark on this project.
Posted by: raynekat Nov 13 2018, 11:01 AM
OK....round 3 for the windshield install.
This time I used the Porsche factory clips and 5/16" butyl.
Windshield went in like a breeze (guess practice makes perfect).
Using the smaller butyl cord vs the 3/8" I mistakenly used last time, the windshield sat down into the opening much lower.
It looked promising for getting the windshield trim properly snapped in this time.
I put the lower trim in 1st with the two corners attached.
All the trim clips had a nice positive snap as the trim snapped into place.
Next I went with the 2 sidepieces.
These all go in as one unit with the center piece holding them together at the top of the windshield.
Along the top of the windshield....those all snapped in easily.
It was the sides that are the challenge still.
Especially the first clip up from the lower corners.
The corner pieces hold the trim far enough away from those 1st clips up the sides that it's tough to get those to snap in.
I eventually chose to gently bend the trim in those locations such that they could more easily get into the clips.
Then it was snap, snap, snap up both side and I was done.
Zero of the factory trim clips broke.
That's one data point for ya.
My only issue is the small corner pieces don't really wrap around the trim enough.
It's easy to flatten out the little bend that's supposed to hold them onto the trim.
Same with the top center connector.
A nice re-design would be to add more material to where these small connector pieces wrap around the actual trim.
Take away from all of this.
This is not a trivial project.
It takes a lot of planning and be prepared to re-do it....unless you get extremely lucky.
Pre-install the windshield without the butyl a few times to understand where it sits amongst the clips.
Understand how high your windshield will sit depending on the size of butyl you plan to use.
Posted by: mepstein Nov 13 2018, 11:10 AM
OK....round 3 for the windshield install.
This time I used the Porsche factory clips and 5/16" butyl.
Windshield went in like a breeze (guess practice makes perfect).
Using the smaller butyl cord vs the 3/8" I mistakenly used last time, the windshield sat down into the opening much lower.
It looked promising for getting the windshield trim properly snapped in this time.
I put the lower trim in 1st with the two corners attached.
All the trim clips had a nice positive snap as the trim snapped into place.
Next I went with the 2 sidepieces.
These all go in as one unit with the center piece holding them together at the top of the windshield.
Along the top of the windshield....those all snapped in easily.
It was the sides that are the challenge still.
Especially the first clip up from the lower corners.
The corner pieces hold the trim far enough away from those 1st clips up the sides that it's tough to get those to snap in.
I eventually chose to gently bend the trim in those locations such that they could more easily get into the clips.
Then it was snap, snap, snap up both side and I was done.
Zero of the factory trim clips broke.
That's one data point for ya.
My only issue is the small corner pieces don't really wrap around the trim enough.
It's easy to flatten out the little bend that's supposed to hold them onto the trim.
Same with the top center connector.
A nice re-design would be to add more material to where these small connector pieces wrap around the actual trim.
Take away from all of this.
This is not a trivial project.
It takes a lot of planning and be prepared to re-do it....unless you get extremely lucky.
Pre-install the windshield without the butyl a few times to understand where it sits amongst the clips.
Understand how high your windshield will sit depending on the size of butyl you plan to use.
Thanks for posting your results and glad the 3rd time was a charm.
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