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Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2018, 02:07 PM

Interesting article.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/a9982953/why-the-996-generation-porsche-911-will-never-be-collectible/


Never thought I'd see a 914 worth more than a 911....but that day has come.

Although initially I didn't buy my teener for appreciation value.

Posted by: 76-914 Nov 5 2018, 02:24 PM

Good article but I think the author's compliments were left handed at best. He just could not bring himself to lay any praise on the 914 other than its rising value.

Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Nov 5 2018, 02:31 PM

A friend who works for Porsche said around the water cooler the 996 is the car the accountant's built.
There was one at my local shop recently, the guy paid $15,000, thought he was the smartest guy in the world, when I left his bill had reached $7000 and was climbing, for normal wear stuff, nothing big. So he is already over $20,000 for a car worth about $15,000. But money aside, before I bought my 993 I was looking at 996's, I drove one that one was town over, it was very underwhelming, it reminded me of driving a Mistubishi 3000, yeah the gauges were moving, but it had no soul. Now a 993, that's a Porsche, and you feel it and hear it.
And a 914, I love driving a 914, you can feel everything.

Posted by: mepstein Nov 5 2018, 02:38 PM

When I first saw the 996, I thought it was a new Toyota. It’s underwhelming for a Porsche in every category.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2018, 02:48 PM

Yes...I'd agree...definitely left handed but probably ultimately correct.


With my latest purchase of a 987.1, who cares. If I get 13K worth of fun with air conditioning...with the sound of a flat six behind you, it's all grins. It can grenade tomorrow and I'll still be happy.

It's still less than 20k for a well done conversion in the teener.

It's all realative I suppose...it struck me though and made me laugh a little after all those years of snub noses with a NARP. In part...you get that with a 987 and the ass dragger crowd.

Some things will never change.

Posted by: JmuRiz Nov 5 2018, 03:09 PM

Grounded to the ground

Posted by: BuddyV Nov 5 2018, 03:21 PM

I must be the only person who actually LIKES the 996 headlights. I find the shape interesting from a design perspective.

Is oval really that great? I mean, they defintely look better on older 911's..... but I found the new shape refreshing on the 996.

No?

I don't get it.

Hmmm...... maybe I should look into buying one.

Posted by: Big Len Nov 5 2018, 03:51 PM

The author writes, "These cars were about 15 years old back when I was in high school, and could be had in good condition for three or four grand. In a straight line, they were easy meat for a 2.8-liter Chevrolet Citation; in a corner, they were prone to behavior that was by turns fascinating and terrifying. The smart money bought an old BMW 2002, which could also be had dirt cheap and which would blow the proverbial doors off the VoPo".

The same could be said of that 356 he values so highly in the previous paragraph.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2018, 04:02 PM

Well put.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2018, 04:05 PM

[quote name='914_teener' date='Nov 5 2018, 02:02 PM' post='2663416']
[quote name='Big Len' post='2663415' date='Nov 5 2018, 01:51 PM']
The author writes, "These cars were about 15 years old back when I was in high school, and could be had in good condition for three or four grand. In a straight line, they were easy meat for a 2.8-liter Chevrolet Citation; in a corner, they were prone to behavior that was by turns fascinating and terrifying. The smart money bought an old BMW 2002, which could also be had dirt cheap and which would blow the proverbial doors off the VoPo".

The same could be said of that 356 he values so highly in the previous paragraph.
[/quote]



Well put. Proof that every bit of writing is biased towards the writers judgement or opinion.

Fact remains...996's can be had for less than a really nice 914.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 5 2018, 04:25 PM

I like the 996, if I had the space (and money) I'd like to build a narrow body C4 and trick it out like the 996 GT3 and lighten it up.

Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Nov 5 2018, 04:53 PM

The key difference is quantity. People tend to use 356 ups and downs in comparison to other Porsches except they forget that while 356's did go through a long low point in the 70s, before rising in the 80s, and then again in the mid 2000's, the quantities were always low, so a small rise in demand can cause a spike in pricing. The 356 market is much easier to have wild jumps because of this shortage of supply. They made thousands of 996's. This is one reason why it has taken so long for the 914 to rise in value, with over 100,000 being made it means that for decades there was always enough to satisfy demand. Evidence of this is the fact that many 914 guys have not one, but two or three 914's, meaning the supply is far out-striping demand. And only now the nice 914's are commanding real money, but the projects and the turd box drivers are still under $5000. I paid $1500 for my autocross car, running and driving. I could probably double my money but that's about it.
So the 996 supply will for a long time be able to meet demand for people who want a high maintenance car and are willing to feed the pig for a car that tends to underwhelm Porsche guys on the whole. So buy one if you like it, but don't expect to make a lot of money on one.

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 5 2018, 05:08 PM

Read some of the authors other articles, he's a total fuching douche.
He even calls his wife "Danger Girl"

Posted by: JamesM Nov 5 2018, 06:14 PM

I couldn't comment on this, my brain does this thing to save time where I stop reading as soon as I encounter blatant stupidity. I didn't make it past "Vanagon-engined misery-mobile"

Last I checked my math the 914 predated the Vangon by 10 years, and the majority of Vanagons were water cooled.

Why is the internet filled with so much stupid?

Posted by: Mueller Nov 5 2018, 06:18 PM

and to think he gets paid for this? They must not have had many applicants when that position was open.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 5 2018, 06:26 PM

Different point......but a good one. I only posted it for amusement as I knew somebody here would catch that.

The existence of stupidity is an existential question which I posted in the Sand Box entitled what is a fact, an opinion and judgement. Seemingly many people fail to get the subtle differences.

Back on the subject James. Do you like the 996 headlights though?

Posted by: Larmo63 Nov 5 2018, 07:14 PM

I read the "Vanagon-engined misery-mobile" comment and rolled my eyes.

Some things he got right, some things he got very wrong.

Posted by: pete000 Nov 5 2018, 07:31 PM

The 996 is a disposable car, buy it cheap and when it dies toss it...

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 5 2018, 07:34 PM

Years ago, a Guards Red/black 993 Carrera S 6MT came through Excellence. Had if for a week, and liked it a lot. And there was a lot of like...styling, connection to what we love about earlier air-cooled 911s, useful torque, good sounds, pretty nice shifter (for back then), and then all the stuff that seemed like a quantum leap from my 914—air-conditioning, power windows and locks, power seats, etc.

Not too many months later, a Guards Red/black 996 Carrera 2 6MT came through Excellence, and I spent a few days in that. The air-cooled diehards were busy panning the 996, mainly citing the 993's styling, build quality, materials quality, tradition, etc as superior (and those are hard points to argue), I had to say that the 996 put it on the trailer if the drive was what mattered. Down the same roads, the 993 was very much the compromise that it was...a car continually refined—and VERY well developed—from 1964 to 1998 (the upside) stuck on a wheelbase and chassis that dated to...1964. In terms of the driving, the 996 felt like what they'd make from all those lessons with a clean sheet. The handling was flat superior, with a lighter helm that filtered out the white noise while leaving me with what I needed to carve up a road. The whole car felt lighter, more agile. The 3.4 was elastic, pulled harder, and sounded better (to me) than the workaday, torquey 3.6 in the 993, the shifter was better, and the brakes were better too. More comfortable on the freeway, and offered VASTLY better HVAC. Sure, you could see where they saved the money (um, no glovebox...really?), and the interior quality was spotty at best, but the driving position was better and the 996 was...to me, if I put what I was "supposed to like" aside...more fun to drive than the 993. I still have a soft spot for early 996 C2s—I prefer the 986 headlights to the later ones, and the 3.4 to the 3.6, and the handling of the 1999-2001 C2 to the handling of the 2002-2004 C2.

Don't get me wrong. I love 993s. But I don't get the 996 hate. The only thing that makes me nervous in recommending them is the engine, which is an overblown subject in my view—but if you get stung, it huuuuuurts.

Posted by: JmuRiz Nov 5 2018, 08:22 PM

I’ll go on record as one that likes the 996.2 cars...wish I could afford a GT3 and have been daydreaming of a 996.2 turbo as a family GT car (I just can’t justify spending money with other projects in the works)

Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Nov 5 2018, 08:37 PM

Now the GT3 is a different beast, a friend brought his new to him GT3 by the shop last week, I've never gone faster in a car than I did that day, it was terrifying.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 6 2018, 12:16 AM

While the 996.2 C2 doesn't do much for me, the C4S and Turbo are wonderful cars, and need very little to be dialed in (center console delete via Carnewal.com, and maybe PSS9 or PSS10). Even the stock wheels are great.

And then, of course, there's the 996.2 GT3, which I preferred in period to the 997 GT3s with the exception of the 4.0...high praise for a "mere" 996. What's wild is a nice 914-6 is now worth considerably more than a nice 996 GT3...and as much as I like 914s, this question would be a no-brainer for me.

BUT, a 996 C4S for a third the money is awfully attractive. Yes, IMS/RMS/etc, but I took a chance on a 1999 986 2.5 at 60,000 miles, and my brother has that car today, now with 220,000 miles on the original engine and it pulls like a champ. The 996.2 C4S (and 996.1 C2 coupe) are so good I might take that bet again…

Posted by: EdwardBlume Nov 6 2018, 06:33 AM

Sorry, but the 996 3.6 C4 was / is a very nice car. I drove a convertible version. Heavy, but did 80% of everything well.

Posted by: Racer Nov 6 2018, 06:47 AM

Collectible does not mean valuable. I can collect used tape dispensers.. but that doesn't mean that they are valuable.

The 996 is a fantastic "car" when you look beyond some mechanical maladies. I liken it more to the 74-77 midyear cars that suffered similar malignment due to impact bumpers, softer ride, less hp, more weight and eventually Thermal reactor issues with the mag cases.

It does seem that the current 996 depreciation curve is at its bottom. They are now almost 20 years old.. so the 14 year olds of 1999 can now buy their "dream" Porsche. Much like I did 20 years ago when I bought a then 20 year old 911SC.. its self just an old under powered sports car.

The cycles continue.. nostalgia is strong when it comes to cars that we dream about. It also seems no one knows what to do with their money, so they put it in old cars.

Posted by: JOEPROPER Nov 6 2018, 06:51 AM

I have an '02 C4S and I love it. I don't see what there is not to like about it. Comparatively inexpensive, good power, handles terrific and looks great. Everyone should have one!

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 6 2018, 07:20 AM

ive been looking for a while, just did a new search in our area 200 mile radius and there are 20 under $20k , most are cabriolets, most have the hard top with it, cheapest was $13,500 and has the IMS done, was a '99, another with only 50k miles for $15,000 very clean very nice full records from Porsche on all the maintenance records, its a2002 . These can be had for less than a 944 . If I didn't have a Boxster right now I would grab one of these in a second. Personally as searched the one that stood out was a "Targa" with that big sliding sun roof, very low miles full history etc super clean, under $17k and it has the Aero kit factory option and LSD transmission option. Keep looking there are so many of these out there but its not an unknown anymore and they have hit the bottom of their price curve, I don't think you will se them hit $10k unless they are junk or mechanical failures.

But then again, my '97 boxster I am driving right now I bought 2 years ago for under $8k, knowing I would have to do a clutch even though it only had 38k miles on it, and knew I would probably due the IMS while in there which we did, and I now have 48k miles on it , not sure why I would get rid of it I've got all brand new clutch rms and IMS(LN dual row hybrid ceramic bearing with full 100kwaranty), but I would probably consider it for that '02 C4 Targa.

good luck on the purchase and keep us posted!

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 6 2018, 09:25 AM

Not in the market any more Phil.

Bought a 987. Glad to hear your 986 is still together as many are.

I too was spooked about the 986 and 996 engines so I stayed away. What struck me while looking was the value. While mine still has an IMS, its a M97.21. Did a PPI on the rest and all checked out. A clutch is in my future though. Given the choice for the same money....I.d go mid engine of course.

What was intetesting was how much the 996 was going for. For me, I just couldn.t get behind the looks. I suppose just like the 914 back in the day to some. Just a matter of taste.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 6 2018, 09:35 AM

More recently, I drove a C4S Cab with Tiptronic on a track. Thought I was gonna hate it, but it reminded me of everything I like about all 996s. The driving position, the super honest conventional suspension, great brakes, good power, good sounds, etc.

All of the 996s drive (really) well. I spent hundreds and in many cases thousands of miles in every variant. The only one I'd stay away from is the Targa (I did the Targa Newfoundland in one, and the weight up top with the narrow body is very noticeable...and I hear those tops are a dealership tech's nightmare, which means they are worse for owners). The top four 996s that shined brightest for me were: 996 GT3 (prefer it to all GT3s save the 997 4.0 and *maybe* the current 991.2 6MT), 996 Turbo (faaaaaaast, even today, but complicated and likes its drink), C4S (what a lovely car), and 996.1 C2 (light, right, fantastic if you press on)—and not necessarily in that order save the GT3, which was on top by a country mile.

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 6 2018, 10:53 AM

well I can certainly understand that, I am sure the 987 will not disappoint you! if its a 09 or later Cayman then no worries right? but seems the have very few failures even in the first couple year cars, either way it will be great. My first boxster was a 2002 S with the 3.2, and guy that has it now is #3 owner, and its over 130kmiles original clutch and IMS with no issues, just drive them regularly I think they do better. My IMS was a dual row original ( on thecurrent car the '97) and yet when we went to do the RMS and clutch found the bearing had lost seal and would have failed evey though it only had 40k miles!!!! so I dodged a bullet- post some pics of the 987!

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Nov 6 2018, 01:40 PM

Jack Baruth is a pompous attention whore who'll do whatever it takes to get clicks to R&T. He loves to bash the 914, which only solidifies his pinky raising poser status. Real Porsche enthusiast see the merits as well as shortcomings of all the different models of the marque.

The premise of his article, sans insults, does bear limited merit however. He's late to the party though as far as appreciating values though, as our beloved mid-engine wonders have out paced front powered water pumpers for some time now.

The only dings I ever had on the '99 and later cars is the homogenized front clip from model to model, and the IMS issues. The IMS though, as others have stated, is a small fraction unless it's your car which at that point is 100%

Posted by: jmitro Nov 6 2018, 03:52 PM

so much hate for the 996 in here...."no soul"...."underwhelming"... "disposable"

the 996 guys on rennlist would seriously disagree with you. I had two 996.1 cars and loved them. i'd love an air cooled 911 but they are overvalued at the present time IMHO. A 996, 997, 986 or 987 are great value in a real sportscar IMHO

I think it's true the bread and butter 996s won't appreciate in value that much; at least not for many many years

Posted by: billh1963 Nov 6 2018, 07:17 PM

I agree with everything you say. As an owner of multiples of each, I think each model has their strengths and weaknesses. If you have never driven a 996, you should drive one before you knock it.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 6 2018, 07:44 PM

I have two in the stall now.

I quess I.m not a part of the Pinky Poser Crowd.

Totally okay with that.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 6 2018, 09:11 PM

^ Nice garage!

Posted by: SKL1 Nov 6 2018, 09:18 PM

Maybe the average 996 isn't the greatest, but I wish I had my 2004 GT3 back. Fantastic analog race-car for the street. Can't remember exactly why I sold it, but it went to the then president of the PCA who tracked it for many years...


For the $$, you can get a pretty damned nice C4S, etc and that is a great car. As far as WC'ed 911's go, still think the 997.2 is the best 911 though.

Posted by: Jett Nov 6 2018, 11:06 PM

I bought a 2001 996 Turbo last year from a friend and it quickly became my daily driver. If you have a 996 turbo make sure the water pipes are pinned... sometimes the press fitting fails .

The car has 123K miles on it and our goal is to reach 250K


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Racer Nov 7 2018, 07:11 AM

Only reach 250K? how about this old one!

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/a32639/this-porsche-996-turbo-for-sale-has-an-absurd-590000-miles-on-it/

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 7 2018, 08:17 AM

Begs the question:

Did he add the IMS kit or not.

Posted by: JmuRiz Nov 7 2018, 08:56 AM

Not an issue on the Turbo or GT3 engines

Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2018, 10:14 AM

Having putting many miles on Sandys 996 twin turbo I can say the car is a blast to drive and comfy, in fact the car could be considered a smaller more powerful version of my wifes '07 CLS 550 Mercedes. It feels like it would be related.

Can the pinning of the water pipes be done at home or is that a shop only thing?

Posted by: Jett Nov 8 2018, 01:26 AM

I have a new goal!

Posted by: Jett Nov 8 2018, 01:41 AM

I think this is a simple but risky job, so I had an experienced shop do the work. Engine out That said, my pipes blew while under load and unfortunately the alternator and air pump were sacrificed, also changed out the engine insulating pad and threw on new belts for good measure.

Posted by: thelogo Nov 17 2018, 02:31 AM

The 996 is technically faster and an improvement, performance wise over a 993 , ( correct? ??)

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 17 2018, 07:55 AM

I rebuild the 996 engines, IMS service, etc, so I've driven quite a few of them, to me the naysayers have never pushed the limits of a 996. Take one for a track day and get her up around 250kph and you'll have the grins.
At that speed all 914's, except the serious downforce track cars, will be swapping ends.