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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ New 914 owner! Already dreaming of engine swaps...

Posted by: betz Nov 6 2018, 04:07 PM

A little background: I have 3 cars besides the 914: A stock '00 Boxster, a restored '86 E30 BMW with a 2.8L stroker M20, and a '06 Outback XT. All manual trans.

I found this 1972 914 1.7 on craigslist for $1600 and the main selling point to me was that most of the parts were there, it just seemed to need some basic TLC to get it running. Also, its a California car and not a total rust bucket. Also hasn't appeared to be in any major accidents. After pretty much finishing my E30 I've been itching for a new project... Ideally smog exempt.
IPB Image

The plan for the car is to get it running with the original type 4. The PO, who only had it for a few months, said he thinks it needs a fuel pump... turns out, the fuel pump wasn't even plugged in. So OF COURSE it's not running. He got it to start briefly with just starter fluid, so I'm thinking that's pretty much it. I'm going to bring it back to stock configuration on the D-jet, change out the oil and fuel, plug in the dang fuel pump in and I pretty much expect it to start up no problem.

From there, I will get into the restoration phase. Take it down to bare metal (I believe the car was originally black, and has total crap paint job) tackle any rust, then repaint. Then get the interior/ exterior trim all sorted.

And, if I get through alll that... I will probably want to undertake a motor swap, unless I'm just in love with the type 4. I tossed a few ideas out there, but my ideal motor would be a light, high revving motor with ITB's. Since S14's are not exactly obtainable, the 20V 4A-GE blacktop is my best idea so far. KEP makes an adapter for it, plus, it doesn't make enough power to break the stock 901 trans. I am a mechanical engineer with access to a machine shop, so fabbing some engine mounts, routing cooling system etc will most likely be pretty doable.

What do you guys think? Am I in over my head?

Posted by: aharder Nov 6 2018, 04:39 PM

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Posted by: ValcoOscar Nov 6 2018, 04:52 PM

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Posted by: mepstein Nov 6 2018, 04:58 PM

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Posted by: theer Nov 6 2018, 05:24 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 6 2018, 05:07 PM) *

What do you guys think? Am I in over my head?


welcome.png

I had to look up what a 4A-GE blacktop is, but you're definitely not in over your head. 914's have been swapped with many different motors, so an easier route would be to copy what's been done already.. but that's totally up to you.

Fix it up and drive it first is a great idea, though. You'll get tired of the T4 soon enough, but will love the handling, etc.

Good luck!

Posted by: Shadowfax Nov 6 2018, 05:46 PM

welcome.png
Looks like a great starting point.

Posted by: betz Nov 6 2018, 06:19 PM

QUOTE(theer @ Nov 6 2018, 03:24 PM) *


I had to look up what a 4A-GE blacktop is, but you're definitely not in over your head. 914's have been swapped with many different motors, so an easier route would be to copy what's been done already.. but that's totally up to you.

Fix it up and drive it first is a great idea, though. You'll get tired of the T4 soon enough, but will love the handling, etc.

Good luck!


Thanks for all of the welcomes! I hardly got that on r3vlimited, haha.

The 4A-GE is a Yamaha designed Toyota motor made famous by the anime initial D. It's found in the AE86 corolla and the original MR2. The blacktop is the final iteration of the motor, found in some JDM only FWD corollas from the late 90s. It's a 1.6L I4 making 160 hp. Redline is at 8300. 5 valves per cylinder. 11:1 compression. Comes stock with individual throttle bodies and runs off a MAP sensor. This makes fitting it with open air trumpets a bolt on affair. It might just be the best sounding 4 cylinder ever made- in my opinion.

I def know it would not be as easy as a subaru or V8 swap. Not the biggest fan of V8s so the subaru motor would probably be the easiest choice for me.

Anyways.. hopefully I get it running soon. I'm thinking it could be as soon as this weekend. I haven't actually attempted to start it since I got it, haha.

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 6 2018, 08:11 PM

A blacktop is nice but parts are getting harder and harder to get. I just did one in an AE86.

I would look into a K series if you want a reliable powerplant with inexpensive parts.

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 6 2018, 08:22 PM

Welcome!


My guess is the height of the engine might be an issue, most people use a boxer engine because it's close lawn and keeps the center of gravity down low.

Drive it for six months before you decide to do anything like a major swap

Posted by: 76-914 Nov 6 2018, 09:01 PM

welcome.png It will not be difficult to improve upon the T4. I don't believe anyone has done what you propose but as I said, it won't be difficult................ beerchug.gif

Posted by: betz Nov 6 2018, 11:24 PM

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 6 2018, 06:11 PM) *

A blacktop is nice but parts are getting harder and harder to get. I just did one in an AE86.

I would look into a K series if you want a reliable powerplant with inexpensive parts.


I definitely considered the K series motors. Its no doubt the more practical option.. cheaper, can make much more power, more reliable even. The only advantage the 4AGE has is size, sounding better and being a cooler swap. And that pretty much does it for me. But I'd no doubt have to get some seat time in like a Civic Si or RSX type S or something, to see if I'd like that motor.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Nov 7 2018, 08:29 AM

welcome.png Regardless of what you do, have fun doing it. You already know the drill as this is not your first rodeo. We will watch as you make progress. We love pictures of progress. beerchug.gif

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 7 2018, 09:03 AM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 6 2018, 09:24 PM) *

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 6 2018, 06:11 PM) *

A blacktop is nice but parts are getting harder and harder to get. I just did one in an AE86.

I would look into a K series if you want a reliable powerplant with inexpensive parts.


I definitely considered the K series motors. Its no doubt the more practical option.. cheaper, can make much more power, more reliable even. The only advantage the 4AGE has is size, sounding better and being a cooler swap. And that pretty much does it for me. But I'd no doubt have to get some seat time in like a Civic Si or RSX type S or something, to see if I'd like that motor.


I did love the sound of the ITBs screaming but you can get that same sound from a K20 with ITBs.

The thing that really hurts the blacktop and silvertop swaps is the water line issue. I ran the RS Chita setup in my 86 which made life easy at the price of $400. I looked at the SQ engineering kit but it was still a bit too rough for my taste. At least you won't need to relocate the dizzy so that saves you a few $$.

If you do decide to do a BT20v let me know as I have a brand new set of performance spark plug wires I imported sitting on a shelf for it.

Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2018, 10:09 AM

Welcome to the club!

Quite a few 914 owners down there in San Jose and the surrounding areas, (I use to live near Santa Teresa High school for years then Almaden Valley then off of Snell before moving to the East Bay)

No idea about that motor you want, someone has done the K-motor swap before, I tried to search for it, yet cannot find it.


Posted by: 914-300Hemi Nov 7 2018, 10:20 AM

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Posted by: betz Nov 7 2018, 11:40 AM

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 7 2018, 07:03 AM) *


I did love the sound of the ITBs screaming but you can get that same sound from a K20 with ITBs.

The thing that really hurts the blacktop and silvertop swaps is the water line issue. I ran the RS Chita setup in my 86 which made life easy at the price of $400. I looked at the SQ engineering kit but it was still a bit too rough for my taste. At least you won't need to relocate the dizzy so that saves you a few $$.

If you do decide to do a BT20v let me know as I have a brand new set of performance spark plug wires I imported sitting on a shelf for it.


Not really hurting it too much, seeing as multiple shops make kits to relocate the water lines.. Some I see are as low as $200.
Unfortunately the ITBs for a K20 cost more than an entire 4AGE engine. Some of the Honda ITB kits actually use blacktop throttles with an adapter, lol. And good sound is not guaranteed... it's likely that the blacktop partially gets it's unique sound from having 5V per cylinder. I kinda want a drop in solution where the most engine modifications I'm going to do is cams and a valve job. Sure I can get the K motor up to 300 hp at the wheels, all motor. But at that point, I'm breaking my transmission if I use first gear. And in it a lot more $$.

Another thing, is that the toughest part of my E30 build was not swapping the motor, but getting the thing tuned right. I went through 3 sets of injectors, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, wideband O2 sensor, a bunch of crappy AFMs and 3 different tunes. It's still not 100% perfect, idle is a little wonky sometimes (probably because of the cam) and sometimes at WOT it will hesitate. I'll probably do a megasquirt with it eventually, but that's $$ plus dyno time which means more $$$. I imagine I'll have my hands full with just the swap for my 914- I'd like modifications to the motor to be another project.. but in the distant future.

QUOTE(Mueller @ Nov 7 2018, 08:09 AM) *

Welcome to the club!

Quite a few 914 owners down there in San Jose and the surrounding areas, (I use to live near Santa Teresa High school for years then Almaden Valley then off of Snell before moving to the East Bay)

No idea about that motor you want, someone has done the K-motor swap before, I tried to search for it, yet cannot find it.


That's good to hear! I've already met some friendly 914 folk in the area buying some parts on craigslist. I got an engine cover in the exact crappy faded repaint red and a rebuilt side shift trans with custom linkages. The shifter in this car is the absolute worst I've ever felt, I literally got the trans the day after I bought it lmao. I was like... where are the gears? Then I realized the entirety of the movement in the shifter was slop. I was almost impressed.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 7 2018, 12:14 PM

"The plan for the car is to get it running with the original type 4. The PO, who only had it for a few months, said he thinks it needs a fuel pump... turns out, the fuel pump wasn't even plugged in. So OF COURSE it's not running. He got it to start briefly with just starter fluid, so I'm thinking that's pretty much it. I'm going to bring it back to stock configuration on the D-jet, change out the oil and fuel, plug in the dang fuel pump in and I pretty much expect it to start up no problem.

From there, I will get into the restoration phase. Take it down to bare metal (I believe the car was originally black, and has total crap paint job) tackle any rust, then repaint. Then get the interior/ exterior trim all sorted. "


Do this. That's enough....you've got other cars, but you asked. Change the tailshift to a side shift and be done.


and


welcome.png



Posted by: MichiganMat Nov 7 2018, 04:47 PM

Hello from San Jose. I just finished up my WRX swap, feel free to ping me with any questions. You're welcome to come by and check out my build too, Im in the Cambrian area.

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 7 2018, 04:53 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 7 2018, 09:40 AM) *


Not really hurting it too much, seeing as multiple shops make kits to relocate the water lines.. Some I see are as low as $200.
Unfortunately the ITBs for a K20 cost more than an entire 4AGE engine. Some of the Honda ITB kits actually use blacktop throttles with an adapter, lol. And good sound is not guaranteed... it's likely that the blacktop partially gets it's unique sound from having 5V per cylinder. I kinda want a drop in solution where the most engine modifications I'm going to do is cams and a valve job. Sure I can get the K motor up to 300 hp at the wheels, all motor. But at that point, I'm breaking my transmission if I use first gear. And in it a lot more $$.

Another thing, is that the toughest part of my E30 build was not swapping the motor, but getting the thing tuned right. I went through 3 sets of injectors, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, wideband O2 sensor, a bunch of crappy AFMs and 3 different tunes. It's still not 100% perfect, idle is a little wonky sometimes (probably because of the cam) and sometimes at WOT it will hesitate. I'll probably do a megasquirt with it eventually, but that's $$ plus dyno time which means more $$$. I imagine I'll have my hands full with just the swap for my 914- I'd like modifications to the motor to be another project.. but in the distant future.


It sounds like you're pretty set on a BT 20 so I'll leave you with this:

A 16v 4AGE with ITB's sounds exactly the same as a BT 20v with ITB's, I've built both. The 5 valve per cylinder sounds cool until you realize almost all of them need valve guides and sometimes valves (very common issue). If I knew how much of a pain the BT swap was I would have built another 16v and saved myself some cash and made more power.

Those $200 water line kits are a joke, most of them run a steel pipe right over the top of the exhaust header and right under the ITBs or worse have you grind out part of the casting in the head which creates it's own separate issues.

The blacktop is not without it's own tuning issues. They have a capacitor issue in the ECUs which is becoming more common as even the newest blacktop is already 18 years old and most of them are crazy high mileage (DON'T believe any JDM importer that says 30-60k miles!!). Oh and don't forget the wiring issues (stay away from Tweak'd, his $480 harness was junk)

You can buy a K20 for about the same amount as a BT 20v and have motor that will run like a swiss clock right off the crate and make more HP stock (and WAY more torque!) than a BT 20v does heavily modded.

You also have a huge community to look to to get good prices on used parts (like ITBs) and technical support. You also can get service parts at any parts store in the US. You won't be stuck dealing with the price gouging and vultures over on Club4ag.

For inspiration..

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97897

As I've learned over so many years in the aftermarket, everyone wants something different so you do you beerchug.gif

Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2018, 04:59 PM

Had I not gotten such a killer deal for my Honda V6 swap, I'd go with a newer VW 2.5 liter 5 cylinder and bolt it up to a 5 speed Boxster/Passat box.

No silly adapters or custom flywheels. That motor would sound sweet with some ITB's for sure.


Posted by: betz Nov 8 2018, 02:17 AM

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 7 2018, 02:53 PM) *



A 16v 4AGE with ITB's sounds exactly the same as a BT 20v with ITB's, I've built both. The 5 valve per cylinder sounds cool until you realize almost all of them need valve guides and sometimes valves (very common issue). If I knew how much of a pain the BT swap was I would have built another 16v and saved myself some cash and made more power.

The blacktop is not without it's own tuning issues. They have a capacitor issue in the ECUs which is becoming more common as even the newest blacktop is already 18 years old and most of them are crazy high mileage (DON'T believe any JDM importer that says 30-60k miles!!). Oh and don't forget the wiring issues (stay away from Tweak'd, his $480 harness was junk)

You can buy a K20 for about the same amount as a BT 20v and have motor that will run like a swiss clock right off the crate and make more HP stock (and WAY more torque!) than a BT 20v does heavily modded.

You also have a huge community to look to to get good prices on used parts (like ITBs) and technical support. You also can get service parts at any parts store in the US. You won't be stuck dealing with the price gouging and vultures over on Club4ag.


As I've learned over so many years in the aftermarket, everyone wants something different so you do you beerchug.gif


You know.. I think you're right. You clearly have more experience with these motors than I do, and I definitely value the ability to get parts quickly and affordably. And I mean.. it's not like a K motor in a 914 isn't unique enough. And there's no way I couldn't make that thing a screamer!

If I'm honest I was never thrilled with all that work for 160hp and the K20 still doesnt make enough torque stock to break the transmission. It really does have a lot going for it.

I also like that idea of a 5 cylinder with a Boxster trans. No adapter plate- just swapping flanges? I might look into that.
At this rate I'll be buying more Boxster parts for the 914 than for the Boxster lol. Let's see.. shift cables, radiators, transmission..

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 8 2018, 10:56 AM

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject smile.gif

Bang for the big buck, easy, fast, reliable.
LS motor with Boxster S trans.

Easy bang for the buck. Fits right and sounds right
Subaru 6 with Subaru trans.

Turbo bang for the buck.
Subaru turbo with Subaru trans.


Those are all very conventional and fantastic swaps.

Below are unconventional swaps.

Honda v6. 901 trans.
CHEAP, stupid reliable. I foresee this gaining popularity shortly.

VW/Audi motor with Boxster trans.
LOTS of fun and unconventional options here. You have to decide your goals for the car. Wiring is probably the most difficult part. I'm a self proclaimed expert on Audi motors and my favorite choices are as follows. With the fact that they we're all designed for similar bolt patterns on the transmission, the starter, and clutch assembly are all factory supported so it's much simpler. No adapter plates required, no mental mind games.


See below for my thoughts on the VW/Audi motors

V8 - ~300-350hp (plenty) good torque, high rev limit, exotic sound. Not enough torque to cause problems with some of the cheaper transmissions.

20v turbo 4. - cheap and reliable motor that has big support for big power depending on how much you spend. 200-900hp

VR6 motor - same as above, but heavier. Many people turbo these for up to 4 digit numbers. As a bonus Porsche put these motors in the Cayenne so you can claim it's a Porsche motor if you get the right block.

20v turbo 5 - see 20v turbo 4. But more low end torque, more potential, and a longer engine. (Space becomes tight at this point)


Something I'd like to do is a K20 with Honda trans. BIG turbo and all cheap Honda parts. Try for 500whp swap for less than 5k.




I think if I tackle another car it's going to be either a really simple swap like Subaru 6 or Honda. Or a Audi V8 simply for the sound.

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 8 2018, 10:59 AM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 8 2018, 12:17 AM) *

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 7 2018, 02:53 PM) *



A 16v 4AGE with ITB's sounds exactly the same as a BT 20v with ITB's, I've built both. The 5 valve per cylinder sounds cool until you realize almost all of them need valve guides and sometimes valves (very common issue). If I knew how much of a pain the BT swap was I would have built another 16v and saved myself some cash and made more power.

The blacktop is not without it's own tuning issues. They have a capacitor issue in the ECUs which is becoming more common as even the newest blacktop is already 18 years old and most of them are crazy high mileage (DON'T believe any JDM importer that says 30-60k miles!!). Oh and don't forget the wiring issues (stay away from Tweak'd, his $480 harness was junk)

You can buy a K20 for about the same amount as a BT 20v and have motor that will run like a swiss clock right off the crate and make more HP stock (and WAY more torque!) than a BT 20v does heavily modded.

You also have a huge community to look to to get good prices on used parts (like ITBs) and technical support. You also can get service parts at any parts store in the US. You won't be stuck dealing with the price gouging and vultures over on Club4ag.


As I've learned over so many years in the aftermarket, everyone wants something different so you do you beerchug.gif


You know.. I think you're right. You clearly have more experience with these motors than I do, and I definitely value the ability to get parts quickly and affordably. And I mean.. it's not like a K motor in a 914 isn't unique enough. And there's no way I couldn't make that thing a screamer!

If I'm honest I was never thrilled with all that work for 160hp and the K20 still doesnt make enough torque stock to break the transmission. It really does have a lot going for it.

I also like that idea of a 5 cylinder with a Boxster trans. No adapter plate- just swapping flanges? I might look into that.
At this rate I'll be buying more Boxster parts for the 914 than for the Boxster lol. Let's see.. shift cables, radiators, transmission..


No boxster radiators.. they won't fit well. Toyota Celica is the one you want. The aluminum rad on eBay is good for up to a big v6. Possibly enough for a small V8. (Sub 5L)

Posted by: mgp4591 Nov 8 2018, 01:28 PM

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 8 2018, 10:56 AM) *

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject smile.gif

Bang for the big buck, easy, fast, reliable.
LS motor with Boxster S trans.

Easy bang for the buck. Fits right and sounds right
Subaru 6 with Subaru trans.

Turbo bang for the buck.
Subaru turbo with Subaru trans.


Those are all very conventional and fantastic swaps.

Below are unconventional swaps.

Honda v6. 901 trans.
CHEAP, stupid reliable. I foresee this gaining popularity shortly.

VW/Audi motor with Boxster trans.
LOTS of fun and unconventional options here. You have to decide your goals for the car. Wiring is probably the most difficult part. I'm a self proclaimed expert on Audi motors and my favorite choices are as follows. With the fact that they we're all designed for similar bolt patterns on the transmission, the starter, and clutch assembly are all factory supported so it's much simpler. No adapter plates required, no mental mind games.


See below for my thoughts on the VW/Audi motors

V8 - ~300-350hp (plenty) good torque, high rev limit, exotic sound. Not enough torque to cause problems with some of the cheaper transmissions.

20v turbo 4. - cheap and reliable motor that has big support for big power depending on how much you spend. 200-900hp

VR6 motor - same as above, but heavier. Many people turbo these for up to 4 digit numbers. As a bonus Porsche put these motors in the Cayenne so you can claim it's a Porsche motor if you get the right block.

20v turbo 5 - see 20v turbo 4. But more low end torque, more potential, and a longer engine. (Space becomes tight at this point)


Something I'd like to do is a K20 with Honda trans. BIG turbo and all cheap Honda parts. Try for 500whp swap for less than 5k.




I think if I tackle another car it's going to be either a really simple swap like Subaru 6 or Honda. Or a Audi V8 simply for the sound.

I thought about the Honda engine and trans swap - the biggest drawback is the width you're dealing with running it transversely. I did some measuring while I worked at Honda and there'd be some interesting modifications to make it fit right and line up the axles. The V6 seemed too tall with it fit to the Honda 5 spd and to me it seemed like wayy too much work. But if someone put in the time to modify everything that was needed, you'd have a great weight setup and a sweet package because it's all designed to work together already. ECU and all... tempting for sure.

Posted by: Chris H. Nov 8 2018, 02:13 PM

Yes the K series is a very strong, cheap, plentiful motor. I have a K24 in my 2006 Acura that still runs like new. I'm half tempted to put a k20 in my Vanagon. Even the non-vtec 2.0 is ~130ish HP. Can be had for like $500.

Posted by: Rand Nov 8 2018, 02:17 PM

This subject has been beaten to death. Are you expecting a different answer? For me, after all these years, it's really simple. Go LS for the aluminum v8, or go flat with Porsche 6 or Subaru 4 to keep the boxer. Why would you go any other way? If you want to go Audi, we have a couple of experts here, but they have all fought technical issues and may not still be on the road as a reliable driver.

Posted by: betz Nov 8 2018, 04:24 PM

QUOTE(Rand @ Nov 8 2018, 12:17 PM) *

This subject has been beaten to death. Are you expecting a different answer? For me, after all these years, it's really simple. Go LS for the aluminum v8, or go flat with Porsche 6 or Subaru 4 to keep the boxer. Why would you go any other way? If you want to go Audi, we have a couple of experts here, but they have all fought technical issues and may not still be on the road as a reliable driver.


Is it a crime to want a lightweight high revving motor for my lightweight mid engined sports car? There's really not that much out there with this concept, even though it should be a pretty natural combination.

The Subaru motor I acknowledge will be a much easier swap. It's my primary fall back option, since I don't want to drop $10k on a 100 hp 911 motor and I'd rather just sell my 914 and buy a corvette than to put an LS in my 914.

Even then, my subaru has historically been the most problematic of all my cars. And I really don't need that much power in my 914. I always feel like my outback is going to blow up when I gas it. Conversely, the favorite thing about my Boxster is how in it's element it feels (and sounds) when you're pedal to the metal. I know the K motor will be able to handle pretty much as much abuse as I'll be able to give it.


Posted by: Andyrew Nov 8 2018, 05:12 PM

Lots of 914 guys around you... Why dont you go for a ride in a few different cars? I'll have mine on the road in a couple months and your welcome to feel a laggy 500hp big turbo 4 motor. Mueller should be getting his on the road shortly after he finishes his small to do list (BUILD DAY?????) and thats a Honda v6 motor..


Honestly I wouldnt bother putting any motor in a 914 that didnt at least have 200hp that wasnt a type 4 or 911 motor...

100hp feels pretty slow. 140hp feels quick, 180hp feels Plenty quick. But that 200hp mark is where things really start to get FUN. Below that just about any modern car on the street will be faster..

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 8 2018, 05:31 PM

DP

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 8 2018, 05:35 PM

QUOTE(mgp4591 @ Nov 8 2018, 11:28 AM) *

I thought about the Honda engine and trans swap - the biggest drawback is the width you're dealing with running it transversely.


The Honda V6 swaps mentioned above have used the stock 914 transmission, I believe.

BTW, I am a firm believer that the 914 is an immense amount of fun with less than 100 HP; I take issue with the thought that "200 HP is where the fun starts". If you drive it right, you can have fun with two-digit power levels.

Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 8 2018, 05:39 PM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 8 2018, 03:35 PM) *

QUOTE(mgp4591 @ Nov 8 2018, 11:28 AM) *

I thought about the Honda engine and trans swap - the biggest drawback is the width you're dealing with running it transversely.


The Honda V6 swaps mentioned above have used the stock 914 transmission, I believe.

BTW, I am a firm believer that the 914 is an immense amount of fun with less than 100 HP; I take issue with the thought that "200 HP is where the fun starts". If you drive it right, you can have fun with two-digit power levels.

Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD


Dave,

My point is I think below the 200hp territory, the best motor for the job is the type 4 motor.

Posted by: betz Nov 8 2018, 06:54 PM

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 8 2018, 03:12 PM) *

Lots of 914 guys around you... Why dont you go for a ride in a few different cars? I'll have mine on the road in a couple months and your welcome to feel a laggy 500hp big turbo 4 motor. Mueller should be getting his on the road shortly after he finishes his small to do list (BUILD DAY?????) and thats a Honda v6 motor..


Honestly I wouldnt bother putting any motor in a 914 that didnt at least have 200hp that wasnt a type 4 or 911 motor...

100hp feels pretty slow. 140hp feels quick, 180hp feels Plenty quick. But that 200hp mark is where things really start to get FUN. Below that just about any modern car on the street will be faster..


I would absolutely love to check out some other 914's!
Don't get me wrong, I will be powing around in that type 4 for some time before I get down into a swap. I have not done all my research on built type 4's, but it seems like everyone recommends that Jake Raby kit which is like $9k. I get that it's an all in one kit, but seriously? That's some serious dough.

As far as horsepower goes, I don't know if I totally agree even when talking swaps. I much more heavily consider the character and feeling the motor gives you over pretty much anything else. I'm not going to race it, at least not for serious competition. It's entirely for fun. That's why the 4AGE sounded better to me than a K series. Shoot I almost want to put a Busso V6 in the thing. But obviously I have to consider having an actual realizable goal.

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 8 2018, 03:35 PM) *


Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD


I will definitely keep this in mind. Yet another reason I should choose a domestic motor. So I can go down to a local dismantler and take a bunch of measurements before I make any rash decisions.


Posted by: Rand Nov 8 2018, 08:15 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 8 2018, 02:24 PM) *

QUOTE(Rand @ Nov 8 2018, 12:17 PM) *

This subject has been beaten to death. Are you expecting a different answer? For me, after all these years, it's really simple. Go LS for the aluminum v8, or go flat with Porsche 6 or Subaru 4 to keep the boxer. Why would you go any other way? If you want to go Audi, we have a couple of experts here, but they have all fought technical issues and may not still be on the road as a reliable driver.


Is it a crime to want a lightweight high revving motor for my lightweight mid engined sports car? There's really not that much out there with this concept, even though it should be a pretty natural combination.

The Subaru motor I acknowledge will be a much easier swap. It's my primary fall back option, since I don't want to drop $10k on a 100 hp 911 motor and I'd rather just sell my 914 and buy a corvette than to put an LS in my 914.

Even then, my subaru has historically been the most problematic of all my cars. And I really don't need that much power in my 914. I always feel like my outback is going to blow up when I gas it. Conversely, the favorite thing about my Boxster is how in it's element it feels (and sounds) when you're pedal to the metal. I know the K motor will be able to handle pretty much as much abuse as I'll be able to give it.

I'm glad you understand the costs. $10k on a 100hp 911 motor? Not my style for sure. 500hp in a motor that weighs about the same as a Porsche 6 but costs half as much? Easy call if you want grunt. And don't compare a Corvette to a 914 with an LS engine, lol.

I respect whatever you want to do. Just as a personal preference, I would either go boxer low and flat or all aluminum v8. Weight balance is as important as engine in these cars. If you go with something more complex, it's extremely critical you know what you are doing in every way, because even experts in Audi conversions still have unresolved problems.

More important than anything is that you do what stokes you. I look forward to seeing what you do!

Posted by: betz Nov 9 2018, 01:35 PM

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa-romeo-164l-1991/6743361233.html

Man, that would be glorious


Posted by: Andyrew Nov 9 2018, 02:49 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 11:35 AM) *

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa-romeo-164l-1991/6743361233.html

Man, that would be glorious


You were complaining the subaru being unreliable....

Posted by: betz Nov 9 2018, 03:32 PM

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 9 2018, 12:49 PM) *


You were complaining the subaru being unreliable....


Says the guy pushing 500hp out of his 4 cylinder happy11.gif


Not that I'm really that serious, but the Busso V6 is rarely the most problematic part of any Alfa. And it would for sure satisfy what I want out of an engine. However, I'm sure the parts are not cheap nor reasonable to get. And for swapping motors into a car not meant for it, that's probably the most valuable thing I could ask for. Good aftermarket and available parts.

It's not like they make an adapter for this thing anyways, I wouldn't know where the heck to start. But it would sure be cool..

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 9 2018, 03:40 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 11:35 AM) *

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa-romeo-164l-1991/6743361233.html
Man, that would be glorious


Tell ya what, if you want to waste money like that just fly me out to your place I'll kick you in the nuts and take your money. You'll be in pain and broke and still without a car that runs , it'll feel just like owning an Alfa. laugh.gif

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 9 2018, 03:56 PM

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 9 2018, 01:40 PM) *

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 11:35 AM) *

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa-romeo-164l-1991/6743361233.html
Man, that would be glorious


Tell ya what, if you want to waste money like that just fly me out to your place I'll kick you in the nuts and take your money. You'll be in pain and broke and still without a car that runs , it'll feel just like owning an Alfa. laugh.gif

av-943.gif



Posted by: Andyrew Nov 9 2018, 03:57 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 01:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 9 2018, 12:49 PM) *


You were complaining the subaru being unreliable....


Says the guy pushing 500hp out of his 4 cylinder happy11.gif





Lets not bring my poor decisions into play smile.gif

Posted by: betz Nov 9 2018, 04:11 PM

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 9 2018, 01:40 PM) *


Tell ya what, if you want to waste money like that just fly me out to your place I'll kick you in the nuts and take your money. You'll be in pain and broke and still without a car that runs , it'll feel just like owning an Alfa. laugh.gif



av-943.gif Alfa owners on suicide watch now

Looks like you're doing a Subaru H6.. is that using the Subaru trans also?




Posted by: Larmo63 Nov 9 2018, 04:53 PM

I read this thread thinking I was logged into 914 World.

Where am I? screwy.gif

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 9 2018, 05:29 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 02:11 PM) *

av-943.gif Alfa owners on suicide watch now

Looks like you're doing a Subaru H6.. is that using the Subaru trans also?


Yeah I'm running a short geared suby 5 speed.


QUOTE(Larmo63 @ Nov 9 2018, 02:53 PM) *

I read this thread thinking I was logged into 914 World.

Where am I? screwy.gif


IPB Image

Posted by: Porschef Nov 9 2018, 05:31 PM

Buy it for the Brembo calipers





happy11.gif


Posted by: djway Nov 9 2018, 10:50 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPgE40t4dc

Well while we are dreaming
Matra V12

Posted by: Chris914n6 Nov 10 2018, 01:07 AM

More motivation... K20A2 Porsche 911

IPB Image


Attached Image


I did my Nissan VQ30DE swap back in 2000 before forums existed. Fairly easy to do. The most time consuming part was going page by page thru the FSM to find and wire the dozen separate ECU power connections and the gauge wiring. Then after it's running you have to go thru it all again to make it pretty... it's one of the laws of swapping av-943.gif

Don't listen to the old folks... 200hp IS the sweet spot.

A T4 power build makes sense if you do it yourself, then the bill is under $2k. Otherwise a modern FI motor swap makes more sense.

My old timer advice is to attend one of the World events next year and drive a few cars. Then you will have a strong basis to decide on your power level and swap difficulty.

Posted by: betz Nov 10 2018, 10:13 AM

QUOTE(Chris914n6 @ Nov 9 2018, 11:07 PM) *

More motivation... K20A2 Porsche 911


I did my Nissan VQ30DE swap back in 2000 before forums existed. Fairly easy to do. The most time consuming part was going page by page thru the FSM to find and wire the dozen separate ECU power connections and the gauge wiring. Then after it's running you have to go thru it all again to make it pretty... it's one of the laws of swapping av-943.gif

Don't listen to the old folks... 200hp IS the sweet spot.

A T4 power build makes sense if you do it yourself, then the bill is under $2k. Otherwise a modern FI motor swap makes more sense.

My old timer advice is to attend one of the World events next year and drive a few cars. Then you will have a strong basis to decide on your power level and swap difficulty.


Man that K swapped 911.. 11.5 compression with a turbo is BOLD. I'm sure that build costed a fortune.

That's actually the part I also figured would be the most time consuming. Which is why a motor with a lot of info floating about and aftermarket would be so useful. I've already looked at some gauges even, ideally I'd like to modify mine to accept the correct signal and go to a higher RPM but that's probably more trouble than it's worth. It's just I like the 914 gauges... Oh well.

So, with a T4 build that would cost me $2k.. what kit/ stuff would I be buying? Because I have an engine builder dude I worked with to make my E30 stroker happen. He can do whatever I can't, like a 3 angle valve job, hone the cylinders, etc. I do like the idea of a really hotted up type 4 with dual Webers, also. But obviously would rather have a swap, especially if the cost difference wasn't that much, or the outcome of the T4 was barely over 100hp.

In any case I would be doing as much of this as I can on my own. I plan to even sand it down myself however getting someone else to paint it. My friend owns a shop and has a lot of contacts in the auto world, so I can probably get it done for a very reasonable price.

The custom work, I plan on designing in solidworks and bringing into my own workplace where they should be able to make it happen. Little parts I can probably get done for free but an engine cradle or something I'd have to pay some hourly rate.

And, I definitely plan on driving/ riding in some cars before deciding, definitely. When are the events and are there some in California?

Posted by: Chris914n6 Nov 10 2018, 12:22 PM

Most of the Subie guys use SpeedHut gauges. Mainly because of the lack of a cable speedo drive on the Subie trans and VSS math being a bitch. I used a Nissan gauge cluster with a VSS converter.

T4 build would be stroker crank, fatter pistons & cylinders, head work w/ bigger valves, and hot cam, plus carbs or FI. Labor extra $$.
I have an 80s built 2.4L in the garage. Stock 2L crank and machined 4" SBC pistons. That was a torquey beast until it melted #3. Nobody builds them that way anymore for a reason.

I built my crossbar on the car off a basic drawing. Some things you just can't measure. Plus it's faster.


Posted by: betz Nov 10 2018, 06:17 PM

I've been sick the past few days, but I couldn't help but fuss with the 914 a bit.

Got a couple of suspicious things going on. I plugged the fuel pump in, but with the ignition on it does not power the fuel pump. I have the supply line disconnected, and even tried cranking but no fuel is coming out.

Tested voltage at the fuel pump plug, I'm reading 6V. Don't know why it's not 12.. and seems a little suspicious that it's exactly half. Tomorrow I'll try putting in the new bosch 69133 fuel pump. If it doesn't work ill just jump the wires... maybe put a switch in like a race car lol.

But yeah, at this point I'm thinking, sort out the fuel pump and It'll probably run. Hopefully.

Posted by: PatrickB Nov 11 2018, 05:52 AM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 03:35 PM) *

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa-romeo-164l-1991/6743361233.html

Man, that would be glorious

I've seen a flat four alfa in a Puma..... and I built something a little outside the box. 4cyl watercooled volks engines with a Kennedy adaptor fit. I've seen video of a 16 valve with webers which would be an easy build. I went a little different, more torque and less revs, VW AAZ diesel. can be pushed to 6000 rpm and 30 pounds boost, or so I'm told. Mine isn't that hot yet.. but I think I have the revs. haven't had it on a dyno.Very simple with a mechanical diesel, one wire to the injection pump for fuel shutoff and hook up the starter to make it run.
Not everyone's cup of tea but I like it. Lots of options out there. Whatever floats your boat.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 11 2018, 01:35 PM

QUOTE(Chris914n6 @ Nov 9 2018, 11:07 PM) *

I did my Nissan VQ30DE swap back in 2000 before forums existed....


I have heard either this car, or another one with the same engine, running. The engine note is FECKING EERIE!!! Sent chills up my spine. Very cool swap, though not a car I would own.

--DD

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 11 2018, 01:48 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 10 2018, 04:17 PM) *

I've been sick the past few days, but I couldn't help but fuss with the 914 a bit.

Got a couple of suspicious things going on. I plugged the fuel pump in, but with the ignition on it does not power the fuel pump. I have the supply line disconnected, and even tried cranking but no fuel is coming out.

Tested voltage at the fuel pump plug, I'm reading 6V. Don't know why it's not 12.. and seems a little suspicious that it's exactly half. Tomorrow I'll try putting in the new bosch 69133 fuel pump. If it doesn't work ill just jump the wires... maybe put a switch in like a race car lol.

But yeah, at this point I'm thinking, sort out the fuel pump and It'll probably run. Hopefully.


Check all your fuses and all the connections at the relay board in the engine bay. Actually disconnect them and inspect them closely. Also check all your grounds and make sure they are clean and tight.

There may be a seat belt ignition interrupt under the passenger seat also. You can bypass it buy connecting the two big yellow wires.

Posted by: betz Nov 11 2018, 04:45 PM

I got it started!!!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JbdxmKZtnSXDmpheA

I am still clueless about the relays. Jumping the wire at the relay, I get 12V at the plug. Switching relays with another I get no difference, no matter the relay. Removing the relay at the top (closest to the driver seat) now the fuel pump plug jumps up to 10V. Wth? Oh well, f it, that's good enough, time to send itttt!

I confirmed the fuel pump was functioning properly with ignition and cranking. Then I jumped the wire to drain the fuel. Filled fuel connected it back up.. in oh there's a leak at the fuel pump. Probably because the fuel pressure was so high since there was no vacuum. I said screw it and tried to start it... Started on the first try!

I will now take a shower after bathing in fuel earlier. Later I'll muster up the courage to drive the thing! So excited. It sounds like it's running pretty smooth!

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 11 2018, 05:09 PM

Awesome! Do a minor tune up and keep driving it! The biggest problem with engine swap cars? They spend most of the time getting bugs worked out while stock motor cars get driven!

The good thing about 914s is you can get the whole thing running on a bench before you swap the motor/trans in. This means you can figure out your fueling, your wiring, the engine itself, shifter, ect then just have a small downtime for mounting and hooking up everything...

Posted by: Mike Bellis Nov 11 2018, 08:34 PM

I'm a big advocate of the Audi 20v turbo. I'm a little less HP than Andyrew but that was my goal. reliability over max HP.

Just fixed a limp mode issue at a bad connector on my DBW throttle and I bought an op-amp style throttle booster. It seems to reduce pedal throw quite a bit. Since the car is so light, I leave it on 10% increase.

Posted by: matthepcat Nov 11 2018, 09:05 PM

Nice to meet you today betz, will be watching the progress of your build.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Nov 11 2018, 09:58 PM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 11 2018, 11:35 AM) *

QUOTE(Chris914n6 @ Nov 9 2018, 11:07 PM) *

I did my Nissan VQ30DE swap back in 2000 before forums existed....


I have heard either this car, or another one with the same engine, running. The engine note is FECKING EERIE!!! Sent chills up my spine. Very cool swap, though not a car I would own.

--DD

Probably WCC'05 in Reno/Tahoe area. Had it WOT up the hill after the candy store stop and several people commented. The 911 stock banana muffler worked out really well in the sound department.

Posted by: betz Nov 12 2018, 04:00 PM

I think my next step is to track down this weird issue with idle. When I start it, it seems to idle fairly normal and smoothly. Probably a bit high at like 1500 RPM. I don't know what RPM because the tach is completely dead. Give it gas, and it will hang out at like 3500 or 4000 and hang out there for a few minutes at least. It sounds pretty obnoxious lol.

I took it round the block, drives better than expected. No RPMs, no speedo, and my hood bounced open once.. but the steering feels incredibly light which was surpising as hell. Given no power steering. I did not need to use the throttle because the RPMs were high enough to move the car plenty. It was really the only way to make it shut up a bit actually.

I'm thinking check for vacuum leaks, maybe confirm timing etc. But the rev hang thing has me scratching my head for sure.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 12 2018, 04:33 PM

First: FUEL LEAKS BAD!!! Make sure you deal with that; too many of these cars have burned to the ground.

Second: A hanging idle is often caused by timing that is too far advanced. If the centrifugal advance weights stick, which they can do after a few decades, that can cause this. Also having the vacuum dashpot hooked up wrong can do it. Vacuum leaks are another possibility, as they generally cause high idle.

--DD

Posted by: betz Nov 12 2018, 08:15 PM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 12 2018, 02:33 PM) *

First: FUEL LEAKS BAD!!! Make sure you deal with that; too many of these cars have burned to the ground.

Second: A hanging idle is often caused by timing that is too far advanced. If the centrifugal advance weights stick, which they can do after a few decades, that can cause this. Also having the vacuum dashpot hooked up wrong can do it. Vacuum leaks are another possibility, as they generally cause high idle.

--DD


I mean, the fuel pump only leaked when jumping the wire. Still, I already have the new one and will be putting it in for sure. I'll be looking at the ignition and distributor next.


After driving the 914 I think I might just go a different direction for engine swaps. Super cheap.. but still cool. Subaru Frankenmotor- the 2.5L with 2.2 SOHC heads, give it some nice cams, 3 angle valve job, maybe some mild porting. Good for about 200hp. I can easily buy the engine pieces opportunistically, and save a lot of money. This'll make me feel better about investing towards some fun stuff.. maybe ITB's? :0

I was even thinking of using the EJ251 harness & ECU because it already runs off a MAP...

Posted by: mepstein Nov 12 2018, 08:21 PM

My feeling was to do my suby swap with a cheap but fun engine - SVX, eg33 - $500 for the whole car, get it running, and then play from there. I’m just waiting on assembly.

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 12 2018, 09:38 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 12 2018, 06:15 PM) *


After driving the 914 I think I might just go a different direction for engine swaps. Super cheap.. but still cool. Subaru Frankenmotor- the 2.5L with 2.2 SOHC heads, give it some nice cams, 3 angle valve job, maybe some mild porting. Good for about 200hp. I can easily buy the engine pieces opportunistically, and save a lot of money. This'll make me feel better about investing towards some fun stuff.. maybe ITB's? :0

I was even thinking of using the EJ251 harness & ECU because it already runs off a MAP...

Peter has that swap, great running car with sensible power.

I've got a video of a drag race between him and when I had a V8 swap. The weight difference and agression off the line for his car meant that he kept up with me to about 60mph when I started to pull on him. I would totally agree with that kind of swap.

The more time behind the wheel of a 914 the better smile.gif


Posted by: Tdskip Nov 13 2018, 07:28 AM

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.

Posted by: betz Nov 15 2018, 03:43 PM

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Nov 13 2018, 05:28 AM) *

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.



This is very true. Even partially plowed is better than nothing.

Not going to lie. I'm strongly considering a type 4 build now. Which may or may not be related to the fact that the type 4 may be the absolute easiest motor in existence to fit ITB's to affordably. Looks like they sell 40mm and 48mm throttles for about $550 for all 4. (Why no middle ground??)

Looking into it, I think the big bottleneck for a budget build is the heads. Ideally, I'd want to fit the biggest possible valves into my 1.7 heads as possible and do the whole spark plug relocation thing. I need to talk to some engine builders, I may have a contact with lots of experience with these heads.

If I get the head figured out, seems like the hot ticket will be the 96mm cylinders, 78.4mm crankshaft, and a nice cam to compliment the setup. Wonder if I can pull 6-6.5k RPM out of this motor... what's the limiting factor besides the cam?

From there, I've already decided what I want to do if I go down this path. Megasquirt with ITB's. 100%. I have absolutely 0 experience with carburetors so the whole idea of it being simpler and easier is not the case for me. When I set up the megasquirt with a proper tune I'll never have to worry about it being tempermental and it will run smoother than a carb'd car ever would.


The only thing *not* making me want to build a type 4 is that jerk Jake Raby. Every damn thread about a type 4 build ends up with "you'd be stupid to try this yourself, the only way to have a good motor is to buy it from Jake Raby". And then Jake Raby chiming in "Years and years of R&D, we don't just toss components together, issall in the combooooooooo"

Well, I may have only gotten my degree in mechanical engineering, but if I can toss together a type 4 motor that's 80% as good as a JaKe rAbY motor for a fifth of the cost, then I would consider that a major success.

Is 150 crank hp achievable with this spec?

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 15 2018, 03:49 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 15 2018, 01:43 PM) *

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Nov 13 2018, 05:28 AM) *

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.



This is very true. Even partially plowed is better than nothing.

Not going to lie. I'm strongly considering a type 4 build now. Which may or may not be related to the fact that the type 4 may be the absolute easiest motor in existence to fit ITB's to affordably. Looks like they sell 40mm and 48mm throttles for about $550 for all 4. (Why no middle ground??)

Looking into it, I think the big bottleneck for a budget build is the heads. Ideally, I'd want to fit the biggest possible valves into my 1.7 heads as possible and do the whole spark plug relocation thing. I need to talk to some engine builders, I may have a contact with lots of experience with these heads.

If I get the head figured out, seems like the hot ticket will be the 96mm cylinders, 78.4mm crankshaft, and a nice cam to compliment the setup. Wonder if I can pull 6-6.5k RPM out of this motor... what's the limiting factor besides the cam?

From there, I've already decided what I want to do if I go down this path. Megasquirt with ITB's. 100%. I have absolutely 0 experience with carburetors so the whole idea of it being simpler and easier is not the case for me. When I set up the megasquirt with a proper tune I'll never have to worry about it being tempermental and it will run smoother than a carb'd car ever would.


The only thing *not* making me want to build a type 4 is that jerk Jake Raby. Every damn thread about a type 4 build ends up with "you'd be stupid to try this yourself, the only way to have a good motor is to buy it from Jake Raby". And then Jake Raby chiming in "Years and years of R&D, we don't just toss components together, issall in the combooooooooo"

Well, I may have only gotten my degree in mechanical engineering, but if I can toss together a type 4 motor that's 80% as good as a JaKe rAbY motor for a fifth of the cost, then I would consider that a major success.

Is 150 crank hp achievable with this spec?



Your personnel comments about someone probably aren't necessary.

Your classes in thermodynamics would tell you what is achievable.

edit:

And the size of your wallet is what is possible.

Posted by: betz Nov 15 2018, 04:26 PM

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 15 2018, 01:49 PM) *



Your personnel comments about someone probably aren't necessary.

Your classes in thermodynamics would tell you what is achievable.

edit:

And the size of your wallet is what is possible.


I didn't need to mention any contacts true.. kind of just thinking out loud that that'll be useful.

My classes in thermodynamics told me that I'd better get the cold reservoir in my engine sub arctic and get that hot reservoir to the surface of the sun and then just garden hose fuel by the gallon and I'll get basically infinite power.

Mechanical engineering courses don't teach jack about building an engine or anything really useful in the real world for that matter, however it does force you to think like an engineer. Whether somebody can apply that to the real world is up to said person. I have built an engine before and that engine got me to work this morning, so I like to think I can apply it well enough.

Realistically I'm not even chasing power else I'd never even consider the type 4. I just want a fun motor. IE, a motor that doesn't feel like you're accelerating with a leaf blower pointed backwards out the window. Other than that.. I'm chasing sound, character, and response. I'm realizing the type 4 may be the ticket to that.

Posted by: mepstein Nov 15 2018, 04:52 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 15 2018, 05:26 PM) *

QUOTE(914_teener @ Nov 15 2018, 01:49 PM) *



Your personnel comments about someone probably aren't necessary.

Your classes in thermodynamics would tell you what is achievable.

edit:

And the size of your wallet is what is possible.


I didn't need to mention any contacts true.. kind of just thinking out loud that that'll be useful.

My classes in thermodynamics told me that I'd better get the cold reservoir in my engine sub arctic and get that hot reservoir to the surface of the sun and then just garden hose fuel by the gallon and I'll get basically infinite power.

Mechanical engineering courses don't teach jack about building an engine or anything really useful in the real world for that matter, however it does force you to think like an engineer. Whether somebody can apply that to the real world is up to said person. I have built an engine before and that engine got me to work this morning, so I like to think I can apply it well enough.

Realistically I'm not even chasing power else I'd never even consider the type 4. I just want a fun motor. IE, a motor that doesn't feel like you're accelerating with a leaf blower pointed backwards out the window. Other than that.. I'm chasing sound, character, and response. I'm realizing the type 4 may be the ticket to that.

You just described a small to mid six.

Posted by: betz Nov 15 2018, 05:42 PM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 15 2018, 02:52 PM) *

You just described a small to mid six.


I would love an air cooled 6.

Think I could do an air-cooled 6 for under $5k? How about $10k? Yeah. Not gonna happen. Plus I have a perfect little car with a Porsche flat 6 already.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 15 2018, 06:27 PM

We know people who run Type IV motors at 7K RPM pretty regularly. Those are race motors, though, and not really suitable for anything but a race car. (Lives in a very narrow power band, gets torn down every weekend, and so on.)

Valve train is one limiting factor for RPM. We have heard of people lightening the stock rocker arms, using high-rate springs, and so on. That helps keeps the valves under control at higher RPMs. So does using lightweight valves and other moving bits (e.g., retainers).

Simply stuffing the largest valves possible into a cylinder head isn't going to be the best you can do. A good cylinder head specialist will work with you on desired power level, RPM range, cam, carbs, exhaust, and so on, and will optimize flow by working the port shapes as well as port and valve sizes. Remember that larger valves are heavier than smaller ones, and require more spring pressure to control.

Lots of stuff can be done. If you know someone who really can do the work well, an honest 150 HP should be very possible.

Note that once you go above ~74mm stroke, one of the rods will start getting perilously close to one of the cam lobes. Double and triple check before you get too deep into it!! Some folks go to reduced base-circle cams for extra clearance. Which works, but seems to be a bit harder on the cam/lifter interface.

Your wallet size will have a very very large effect on how much power you can extract from the motor. And on its durability. Building both of those at the same time can take a lot of work--and therefore a lot of money.

--DD

Posted by: betz Nov 26 2018, 06:34 PM

Thanks for the reply Dave.

I just made a black friday order of 914rubber for some houndstooth seats and a loop carpet set! Still working on making the car driveable in the meantime.

Was wondering... Does anyone know about doing a swap with the Subaru / Toyota FA-20 engine found in the FR-S/BRZ/86? I haven't seen a single thread on here where someone has done that. But it seems like an obvious choice to me to someone who wants revs, 200hp N/A, and a nice reliable modern motor. Plus, the FA20 is about to be in it's heyday for aftermarket, as BRZs get more and more affordable. The aftermarket is already quite good. Yeah I mean, they're more pricey motors marginally ($2-3k at first glance), but I'm also working with essentially a brand new high performance motor and won't have to do anything in the way of engine refresh and internal modification.

Doing some searching, it might even bolt up to other subaru transmissions, and therefore work with all of the Subaru swap stuff currently on the market. I'm not sure though. I would wonder if anything engine mount / transmission related is different.

In any case I think this motor would look very right in a 914 engine bay...

IPB Image

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 26 2018, 07:06 PM

wow.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 26 2018, 11:18 PM

Well, it sure looks cool! No idea of the answers to your questions about it though.

I'm a bit surprised they're available that cheap; I figured they were still too new to have many available from wreckers. Much like the 718 motors. (Which could make for an interesting all-Porsche swap!)

--DD

Posted by: Larmo63 Nov 27 2018, 12:22 AM

I'd call Jake Raby and get his opinion.


stirthepot.gif

Posted by: betz Nov 27 2018, 11:17 AM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 26 2018, 09:18 PM) *

Well, it sure looks cool! No idea of the answers to your questions about it though.

I'm a bit surprised they're available that cheap; I figured they were still too new to have many available from wreckers. Much like the 718 motors. (Which could make for an interesting all-Porsche swap!)

--DD


You're right, couldn't find a single 718 motor on car-part. But the FR-S and BRZ has been available since 2012! And it's only a $25-30k car new. Plenty of time for people to crash it. The new BRZ and Toyota 86 with a stunning 205hp don't have many engines available though. My friend has a 2018 and I can attest the difference in hp is not noticed and the torque dip is still present. The tighter gearing is nice though.

There's actually a 31k mile motor available 5 miles from me in San Jose for $2200. It's pretty tempting. But I think if I went through with this, I'd need the engine, wiring harness and ECU at a minimum. Would be nice to find a car that's being freshly parted out.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Nov 27 2018, 03:15 PM

The 86 is like the 350z... the enthusiasts are doing motor mods and blowing them faster than cars get wrecked. Prices are going to be high for a long time.

Posted by: betz Nov 27 2018, 03:39 PM

QUOTE(Chris914n6 @ Nov 27 2018, 01:15 PM) *

The 86 is like the 350z... the enthusiasts are doing motor mods and blowing them faster than cars get wrecked. Prices are going to be high for a long time.


I don't think that's totally true for the 350Z. The insurance rates are super high on that car for a reason. It was named the most deadly car in 2011. They get crashed a lot and I'm sure you can get a VQ motor for super cheap.

$2200 is not a lot for a motor with 30k miles. It's actually kind of a bargain. Really a bargain when you consider it's a 100hp/L motor. Here in CA you're not even allowed to modify the motor. The most people do is a cold air intake and exhaust. If people are turboing they are also doing motor swaps. Shoot, there's that one out there with a Ferrari 458 motor.

There are easily more crashed cars than turbod cars that blow up. The prices will continue to go down as the motor gets older. All of this is moot though because I can totally afford one right now if I wanted it. It will cost me less to buy this than it would be to buy an old tired subie motor and refresh it.

The question is.. will it be a relatively easy swap?

Posted by: 1adam12 Nov 27 2018, 04:30 PM

I originally thought of doing an FA-20 swap a year ago when I purchased my 914 but ultimately decided to keep it air cooled. I even discussed it to the shop that built the Super Street FRS SEMA build with ITB set up. They said it was an absolute headache as they had to customize everything as expected and the tune was difficult with the ITB set up.


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Posted by: betz Nov 27 2018, 05:27 PM

QUOTE(1adam12 @ Nov 27 2018, 02:30 PM) *

I originally thought of doing an FA-20 swap a year ago when I purchased my 914 but ultimately decided to keep it air cooled. I even discussed it to the shop that built the Super Street FRS SEMA build with ITB set up. They said it was an absolute headache as they had to customize everything as expected and the tune was difficult with the ITB set up.



I mean that's to be expected, not only converting it to ITBs but converting a motor designed with direct injection in mind for port injection. Did they have any insight on putting one in a 914?

Posted by: 1adam12 Nov 27 2018, 06:05 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 27 2018, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE(1adam12 @ Nov 27 2018, 02:30 PM) *

I originally thought of doing an FA-20 swap a year ago when I purchased my 914 but ultimately decided to keep it air cooled. I even discussed it to the shop that built the Super Street FRS SEMA build with ITB set up. They said it was an absolute headache as they had to customize everything as expected and the tune was difficult with the ITB set up.



I mean that's to be expected, not only converting it to ITBs but converting a motor designed with direct injection in mind for port injection. Did they have any insight on putting one in a 914?


At the time I only discussed with them regarding the engine build. I didn't even go into fabrication needed and installing it since I changed my plans.

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 27 2018, 06:58 PM

FA20 is a joke. Underpowered, unreliable when used hard, and a small fortune to build correctly. Oh and still no reliable upgrade for the oil pump in the front cover of other than dry sumping it.

And don't get me started on the DIT version headbang.gif

Posted by: Mike Bellis Nov 27 2018, 07:16 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 15 2018, 01:43 PM) *

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Nov 13 2018, 05:28 AM) *

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.



This is very true. Even partially plowed is better than nothing.

Not going to lie. I'm strongly considering a type 4 build now. Which may or may not be related to the fact that the type 4 may be the absolute easiest motor in existence to fit ITB's to affordably. Looks like they sell 40mm and 48mm throttles for about $550 for all 4. (Why no middle ground??)

Looking into it, I think the big bottleneck for a budget build is the heads. Ideally, I'd want to fit the biggest possible valves into my 1.7 heads as possible and do the whole spark plug relocation thing. I need to talk to some engine builders, I may have a contact with lots of experience with these heads.

If I get the head figured out, seems like the hot ticket will be the 96mm cylinders, 78.4mm crankshaft, and a nice cam to compliment the setup. Wonder if I can pull 6-6.5k RPM out of this motor... what's the limiting factor besides the cam?

From there, I've already decided what I want to do if I go down this path. Megasquirt with ITB's. 100%. I have absolutely 0 experience with carburetors so the whole idea of it being simpler and easier is not the case for me. When I set up the megasquirt with a proper tune I'll never have to worry about it being tempermental and it will run smoother than a carb'd car ever would.


The only thing *not* making me want to build a type 4 is that jerk Jake Raby. Every damn thread about a type 4 build ends up with "you'd be stupid to try this yourself, the only way to have a good motor is to buy it from Jake Raby". And then Jake Raby chiming in "Years and years of R&D, we don't just toss components together, issall in the combooooooooo"

Well, I may have only gotten my degree in mechanical engineering, but if I can toss together a type 4 motor that's 80% as good as a JaKe rAbY motor for a fifth of the cost, then I would consider that a major success.

Is 150 crank hp achievable with this spec?


Jake is a Marine and we have a very low bull shit tolerance. I actually love it when he rants. It reminds me of the good ole days... Semper Fi

He is the best when it comes to the T4 engine but there are others that are also very good. HAM makes the best head modifications. You can now buy much of Raby's tech at the T4 Store and get on the waiting list for HAM to do your heads. Be prepared to buy new heads when HAM rejects them. Making good reliable HP in a T4 is not cheap. Main bearings can be hard to source. For the price of a good T4, you could drop a SBC with adapter kit and have money left for gas...

Posted by: betz Nov 28 2018, 12:45 AM

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 27 2018, 04:58 PM) *

FA20 is a joke. Underpowered, unreliable when used hard, and a small fortune to build correctly. Oh and still no reliable upgrade for the oil pump in the front cover of other than dry sumping it.

And don't get me started on the DIT version headbang.gif


The point of this motor is that I won't be building it. I want 200hp specifically.
It would be hard for me to believe an EJ253 is a better motor in any way compared to an FA. Not to mention the FA is light weight and is even shorter than the standard H4 motors, bringing the center of gravity way down.

So considering use on a mostly street car, I don't see how it would be a bad option, unless I want something to bounce off the limiter continuously. Then sure, I'd probably want a K20. And in that case I probably wouldn't mind cutting up my trunk as much when having to make it fit.

Posted by: Chi-town Nov 28 2018, 12:56 AM

The EJ series engines even N/A are cheap and easy to make power with and plenty of parts to do so. I've gotten 200hp out of an EJ251 but not without a build and aftermarket ECU.

The K series is still the #1 bang for the buck.

If I build a second car it'll probably be a K24 or F22

Posted by: betz Apr 23 2019, 04:32 PM

Welp, after a half a year of deliberation I've come full circle back to the 4A-GE blacktop.

I found a mint one for about $1200, aka, for less than a K motor, fully dressed with wiring harness ECU etc and about 60k miles. Here it is:

IPB Image

Reasons I chose it over the K motor?

ITB's. I'm sorry but I am a total sap for ITB's. I looked into ITB's on a K motor, It would be over triple the cost and way too much power for my little 914. I want to keep it at max 200 hp. Fitting it to a "regular" 4A-GE requires an adapter but would definitely be cheaper than the K. But I would still need to run an aftermarket ECU. I want this project to be, once the motor is running, it's running perfect. Tuning can be a total headache and expensive. Also, packaging wise, the ITB's coming out the side works super well in the rectangular 914 engine bay.

Size. Dimension wise, the little 1.6L 4A is smaller in every dimension. Online I found it was 21" from bottom of oil pan to top of valve cover. That's shorter than an EJ. the K motor is around 26". Barely will clear the engine cover.

Vision. I have an, erm... theme, in mind for my 914 once it's done. I will be embracing my little Toyota motor, I'll leave it at that wink.gif

I appreciate everyone's advice and I considered everything about this build but in the end I must follow my heart on this one or else I won't even have any motivation.

New direction also, I will be starting with the engine first, so I don't get the car looking all pretty just to cut it up again.

I plan on starting a build thread once I have some stuff to post, so stay tuned!

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 24 2019, 12:42 PM

What is the timing belt interval for that engine? I'd put one in before the install and forget about it.

Posted by: Chi-town Apr 24 2019, 04:43 PM

That's not a mint one, that's your standard JDM importer spraying the whole thing down with clear coat. If that's where you got it there's no way it has 60k on it unless you got the front clip with the odometer to prove it. Most of those engines come out of 100k+ cars.

Contact Grant at Battle Garage for all the stuff you'll need to replace on it. He knows his 20v and stocks most of the hard to get parts.

Posted by: betz Apr 24 2019, 05:26 PM

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Apr 24 2019, 03:43 PM) *

That's not a mint one, that's your standard JDM importer spraying the whole thing down with clear coat. If that's where you got it there's no way it has 60k on it unless you got the front clip with the odometer to prove it. Most of those engines come out of 100k+ cars.

Contact Grant at Battle Garage for all the stuff you'll need to replace on it. He knows his 20v and stocks most of the hard to get parts.


Eh, maybe, clear coating seems unnecessary shady though. He did show me a pic of the engine just when it was crammed with all the other engines and it still looked pretty good although dustier. I don't see how they could get rid of all the oil spots and make it looks so nice just with clear coat. I feel like he just wiped it down with armor all or something but I was more looking at where all the gaskets meet and in all the crevasses where you would see some real problems that simple green wouldn't solve. As it stands I'll probably replace anything that's sensible to replace like the belts and
probably timing belt and water pump gasket etc.

In any case I've conceded this car is very far from a daily driver and I am putting what is still a Toyota engine into it. I'm not really too concerned.

Thank you for the source for parts though, another reason I became less scared of this motor was that the aftermarket seems quite good and you can still find parts at reasonable prices even though it's a JDM motor. Also a lot of US 4A GE parts seem compatible or 4A FE so as long as you're a little resourceful it shouldn't be too bad to get stuff for it.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Apr 24 2019, 05:50 PM

How about a German engine?? shades.gif popcorn[1].gif

Posted by: Chris914n6 Apr 24 2019, 06:02 PM

You want to do all the usual maintenance items before the install. All the rubber will age out at 10 years, including the timing belt. Crank seal and specially the rear main. Water pump & pulleys are unknowns at this point. Do you really want to possibly drop the motor in a few months to save 100$ today?

Also pop the valve cover & oil pan to look for sludge & other signs of issues.

Don't let the cleanliness fool you, something has been leaking....

Posted by: betz Apr 24 2019, 07:13 PM

QUOTE(RolinkHaus @ Apr 24 2019, 04:50 PM) *

How about a German engine?? shades.gif popcorn[1].gif


German engines aren't missing from my life. Individual throttles are, haha. I did consider megasquirting a Type IV and running individual throttles, but then I'd really need to build the type IV and I really don't want to go down the engine building rabbit hole again. No interest in the VW 1.8T. Price of the flat 6 kills any interest. A VR6 would be okay but I already have my BMW I6. If someone gave me a free S14... Yeah no I'd just put it in my E30, lol.

QUOTE(Chris914n6 @ Apr 24 2019, 05:02 PM) *

You want to do all the usual maintenance items before the install. All the rubber will age out at 10 years, including the timing belt. Crank seal and specially the rear main. Water pump & pulleys are unknowns at this point. Do you really want to possibly drop the motor in a few months to save 100$ today?

Also pop the valve cover & oil pan to look for sludge & other signs of issues.

Don't let the cleanliness fool you, something has been leaking....


Of course I'm popping open the valve cover, to see those glorious 5V / cylinder! Haha.
I definitely plan on refreshing the engine while it's on a stand and everything is easy to get to, though. Crossing my fingers everything looks clean and well maintained..

Posted by: 2mAn May 14 2019, 04:38 PM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 6 2018, 05:19 PM) *

Thanks for all of the welcomes! I hardly got that on r3vlimited, haha.



bootyshake.gif

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 15 2018, 03:26 PM) *


Mechanical engineering courses don't teach jack about building an engine or anything really useful in the real world for that matter


my thermodynamics class was about the time all of my daydreaming finally told me I was in the wrong major... 15 years later I graduated with a BS degree haha

QUOTE(Larmo63 @ Nov 26 2018, 11:22 PM) *

I'd call Jake Raby and get his opinion.

stirthepot.gif

lol-2.gif


so, Ben have you driven it yet?..
stirthepot.gif

Posted by: Bleyseng May 15 2019, 07:35 AM

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 8 2018, 05:54 PM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 8 2018, 03:12 PM) *

Lots of 914 guys around you... Why dont you go for a ride in a few different cars? I'll have mine on the road in a couple months and your welcome to feel a laggy 500hp big turbo 4 motor. Mueller should be getting his on the road shortly after he finishes his small to do list (BUILD DAY?????) and thats a Honda v6 motor..


Honestly I wouldnt bother putting any motor in a 914 that didnt at least have 200hp that wasnt a type 4 or 911 motor...

100hp feels pretty slow. 140hp feels quick, 180hp feels Plenty quick. But that 200hp mark is where things really start to get FUN. Below that just about any modern car on the street will be faster..


I would absolutely love to check out some other 914's!
Don't get me wrong, I will be powing around in that type 4 for some time before I get down into a swap. I have not done all my research on built type 4's, but it seems like everyone recommends that Jake Raby kit which is like $9k. I get that it's an all in one kit, but seriously? That's some serious dough.

As far as horsepower goes, I don't know if I totally agree even when talking swaps. I much more heavily consider the character and feeling the motor gives you over pretty much anything else. I'm not going to race it, at least not for serious competition. It's entirely for fun. That's why the 4AGE sounded better to me than a K series. Shoot I almost want to put a Busso V6 in the thing. But obviously I have to consider having an actual realizable goal.

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 8 2018, 03:35 PM) *


Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD


I will definitely keep this in mind. Yet another reason I should choose a domestic motor. So I can go down to a local dismantler and take a bunch of measurements before I make any rash decisions.


For a built type 4 just buy the Raby cam 9990 kit, Len's 2.0L AA heads w/44/38 valves, 96mm pistons and use 2.0L Djet or 44 Webers. That's 125-130 hp for about $4-5K. You can rev it to 6500rpms and tons of lightweight HP plus it's plenty streetable for just driving the damn thing around. Then you have money to spend on the suspension, paint, interior etc

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