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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Wont start

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 26 2018, 07:56 AM

I took my engine out (dual carburetors) awhile back to put in a new clutch. Reinstalled the engine and now it wont start unless I pump the accelerator pedal like crazy. Also, the tach is not working which seems to indicate maybe a coil problem?

I am getting plenty of fuel in the carbs and a spark on all for plug wires. I tried also rotating the distributor slightly each way to check that maybe it was a timing issue, but that did nothing.

Like I said, the car starts if I pump the gas pedal, but will not stay running if I do not.
Stumped. Any ideas guys? I'm sure its something simple, this thing ran great before...

Anything else to try would be helpful. THanks


Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Nov 26 2018, 09:19 AM

check the dwell angle and make sure it is good at 50. Also check the leads to the coil, green and black with purple on the 1 or negative side, and black on the positive or 15 side. After that check the fuel pump to make sure that it is delivering fuel by removing a the hose where it comes up into the engine bay and putting it into a bottle and turn the key on to start the pump running. It should deliver a steady stream.

You can also statically set the timing to get it close to where it should be by putting the car on number one top dead center on a compression stroke and the zero mark on the fan. Then put a test light on the negative side of the coil and move both ways a bit to where the light turns and then just turns off. When it just turns off that should be timing on zero degrees, good enough to start the engine. Beyond that you could have a carb problem where maybe after sitting the floats are sticking


QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 26 2018, 06:56 AM) *

I took my engine out (dual carburetors) awhile back to put in a new clutch. Reinstalled the engine and now it wont start unless I pump the accelerator pedal like crazy. Also, the tach is not working which seems to indicate maybe a coil problem?

I am getting plenty of fuel in the carbs and a spark on all for plug wires. I tried also rotating the distributor slightly each way to check that maybe it was a timing issue, but that did nothing.

Like I said, the car starts if I pump the gas pedal, but will not stay running if I do not.
Stumped. Any ideas guys? I'm sure its something simple, this thing ran great before...

Anything else to try would be helpful. THanks

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 26 2018, 10:29 AM

Pretty sure the coil is wired correctly, I took pictures before I unhooked it, odd that the tach is no longer working though..
Fuel pump is running and fuel is squirting into carbs, will check to be sure its steady tonight. Also checked to be sure rotor was pointing are plug 1 when at TDC on fan. Test light is good idea, will check that as well.
Will Google sticky floats.

Thanks

QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Nov 26 2018, 10:19 AM) *

check the dwell angle and make sure it is good at 50. Also check the leads to the coil, green and black with purple on the 1 or negative side, and black on the positive or 15 side. After that check the fuel pump to make sure that it is delivering fuel by removing a the hose where it comes up into the engine bay and putting it into a bottle and turn the key on to start the pump running. It should deliver a steady stream.

You can also statically set the timing to get it close to where it should be by putting the car on number one top dead center on a compression stroke and the zero mark on the fan. Then put a test light on the negative side of the coil and move both ways a bit to where the light turns and then just turns off. When it just turns off that should be timing on zero degrees, good enough to start the engine. Beyond that you could have a carb problem where maybe after sitting the floats are sticking


QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 26 2018, 06:56 AM) *

I took my engine out (dual carburetors) awhile back to put in a new clutch. Reinstalled the engine and now it wont start unless I pump the accelerator pedal like crazy. Also, the tach is not working which seems to indicate maybe a coil problem?

I am getting plenty of fuel in the carbs and a spark on all for plug wires. I tried also rotating the distributor slightly each way to check that maybe it was a timing issue, but that did nothing.

Like I said, the car starts if I pump the gas pedal, but will not stay running if I do not.
Stumped. Any ideas guys? I'm sure its something simple, this thing ran great before...

Anything else to try would be helpful. THanks



Posted by: Mblizzard Nov 26 2018, 12:08 PM

Because the Tach draws its signal from the coil, I have to think there is a problem in the way you put the wires back on the coil.

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 26 2018, 12:16 PM

If you didn't move the distributor when the engine was out - and it ran fine before - leave it and focus on the wiring connections. Don't think the timing would change by itself.... One thing at a time!

Before moving on to anything else you may want to see if it will run well on ether.

EDIT - if the wiring is OK and it runs on ether then it might be floats / fuel level.

Keep us posted.

Posted by: IronHillRestorations Nov 26 2018, 01:52 PM

Spark, air, fuel, compression. It's one of those.

Start with making sure your ignition is working right; timing (including dwell), firing order is correct, and make sure your all other ignition components are good. I have a spark tester where you can see the spark, and adjust the air gap to make sure you're getting a hot enough spark.

I'd pull your points and make sure they are good. Look at the distributor cap and make sure the center contact hasn't come out. Check the resistance of your coil. Replace the condenser if it's suspect at all.

Make sure your plugs aren't fouled and the correct heat range for a carb'd engine.

Make sure you are getting enough fuel. I personally have bent a rubber fuel hose enough to restrict fuel flow to cause a problem. Some fuel hose is more susceptible to this. I personally haven't used propane, but I've been told you can blow propane down the carb throats enough to get an engine to run.

I've put gas in a mist bottle and sprayed it in the carbs (using protective leather jacket and gloves) but I'd consider it a risky move if you aren't set up to do it (adult help, fire extinguisher, etc).

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 26 2018, 08:11 PM

Still no luck, here is what I did:

1. I checked the fuel lines to both carbs, plenty of gas from the fuel pump.
2. put new connectors on wires to the coil, double checked they were wired correctly. Tach works now.
3. Set TDC to be sure rotor was pointing at mark on distributes (plug 1)
4. Checked connections on the relay board.
5. INspected distributor cap, all looked fine.
6. Checked for kinks in the fuel line
7. Checked firing order.
8. Checked for spark by connecting strobe to wires to see flash, did not check spark at plugs. Did do this when I was having issues a couple months ago and they were fine.
9. Points were also checked at that time and were fine.

I made a video of what is happening, maybe it will be obvious to one of you. Note crazy legs on the gas pedal just to keep it running.

https://youtu.be/vee712MfB80



I really dont want to have this thing towed...

Thanks


Posted by: Tdskip Nov 26 2018, 10:09 PM

That sounds like a P-51 Merlin warming up.

Seems like a fuel issue to me ( May well be wrong, make sure to get lots of other opinions)

Have you clean the carbs yet? I wonder if they got gunked up while they were sitting?

How long were they off the car?

Posted by: second wind Nov 26 2018, 11:13 PM

I lost three months of run time with my car due to bad coil.....plugs would spark but not under compression.....worth a try to change coil....my two cents....
gg

Posted by: Mblizzard Nov 27 2018, 08:03 AM

I have o say its fuel as well.

Do the standard spray starting fluid in carbs to see if it runs.

If it does run then check fuel pressure if it is low look for kinked line. next start the process of cleaning out the carbs.

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 27 2018, 08:36 AM

I sprayed fluid in the carbs and it fires up easier, but still runs like the same, like crap...
Is there details or a walk through somewhere for cleaning these things? Do I need to tear them down, or can I just shoot some carb cleaner on them?

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 27 2018, 08:52 AM

Is it possible to maintain 2.7-3k rpm with a steady, not pumping, gas peddle? Points or A.M. Spark module?

Posted by: mobymutt Nov 27 2018, 09:16 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 27 2018, 09:36 AM) *

I sprayed fluid in the carbs and it fires up easier, but still runs like the same, like crap...
Is there details or a walk through somewhere for cleaning these things? Do I need to tear them down, or can I just shoot some carb cleaner on them?


I also vote for gummed up carbs. When you press the accelerator like that, don't the carbs pump in extra fuel via a different circuit of some sort?

There are tonnes of videos on YouTube, see if you can find one you like. Here's a random link I found:

https://the-bug-club.webs.com/cleaningwebber44jets.htm


Posted by: IronHillRestorations Nov 27 2018, 09:50 AM

How long did it sit? My guess is the fuel that was left in the carb float bowls evaporated down and has gummed them up.

Based on reading your replies, I'd start by pulling all the jets and soaking them in carb cleaner. That said, the best thing would be to pull the carbs, disassemble, clean/soak, put in a new gasket kit, put them back on the car.

I'd change the fuel filter too, regardless.

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 27 2018, 11:54 AM

Sent the video to a local guy here who is very good and he also suspects the carbs, in particular the linkage, and whether it may be out of adjustment.
I have VERY good reason to think that the linkage was mucked with egregiously when I pulled the engine out.
What say you guys? Are these the symptoms of a badly adjusted dual carb linkage?

I double and triple checked all of the wires and I'm pretty sure my electrical connections are good and its getting plenty of fuel form the pump.

Posted by: Mblizzard Nov 27 2018, 12:19 PM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 27 2018, 09:54 AM) *

Sent the video to a local guy here who is very good and he also suspects the carbs, in particular the linkage, and whether it may be out of adjustment.
I have VERY good reason to think that the linkage was mucked with egregiously when I pulled the engine out.
What say you guys? Are these the symptoms of a badly adjusted dual carb linkage?

I double and triple checked all of the wires and I'm pretty sure my electrical connections are good and its getting plenty of fuel form the pump.


Well the linkage would have to be seriously screwed to produce those results so it is possible. What type of linkage do you have?

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 27 2018, 12:20 PM

Its a single hexbar between the two. Pretty sure it seriously screwed. At least im hoping its as bad as I think

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 27 2018, 12:26 PM

You should be able to disconnect the bar and set each carb to idle and fire it up.

I'd try than and report back.


Posted by: Mblizzard Nov 27 2018, 12:31 PM

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Nov 27 2018, 10:26 AM) *

You should be able to disconnect the bar and set each carb to idle and fire it up.

I'd try than and report back.



If this works seriously look into the CSP bell crank linkage. Some people have good luck with hex bar set ups but I have never been able to get them to stay set. Likely operator error I know!

Posted by: TheCabinetmaker Nov 28 2018, 11:55 AM

Sounds like the engine is fighting itself to run from being out of time. Fried condenser might cause that too, but it sounds ignition to me!

Posted by: Triaddave Nov 28 2018, 12:12 PM

It may sound stupid but maybe a kinked fuel line or clogged fuel filter.

Posted by: marksteinhilber Nov 28 2018, 02:09 PM

You have unsteady firing from a number of cylinders, but there is fuel so the car runs. It could be a carb or ignition problem. How do you know you have a strong spark at each plug? How old are your plugs and plug wires? Are any of the plug wires arcing to metal where they are touching. Plug wires will show where they are discharging to metal grounds. For this reason I make sure none of my plug wires are touching metal or each other by looming them and by using zip-ties to make wire separators. Check for fouled plugs. They should not have excessive gap or wear, nor excessive deposits. A spark checker or an inductive timing light placed right before the spark plug can tell you if one or more of your plug wires is grounding out to metal. Once you are sure you have a strong spark at each plug, then you can start to look for erratic fuel delivery problems. If you have a dual carb set up, it may then be caused by clogged jets or an adjustment on one or more barrels. Might be a good time to check the balance of flow and re-tune.

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 28 2018, 03:35 PM

I will double check the spark tonight by pulling the plugs and watching them. Previously just used timing light on plug wire to check for spark.
Fuel lines are not kinked, checked those. Will post back. THanks for all of the suggestions everyone.

Posted by: cgnj Nov 29 2018, 05:05 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 28 2018, 02:35 PM) *

I will double check the spark tonight by pulling the plugs and watching them. Previously just used timing light on plug wire to check for spark.
Fuel lines are not kinked, checked those. Will post back. THanks for all of the suggestions everyone.


Watched the video. you are clearly running on pump jets, till you flood. I'm going to assume that you pulled the carbs off to drop the motor.
you have at least two problems, one you have already repaired (loose/ intermittent connection at coil).

Take off the engine lid if it is still on. Check the throttle stops and make sure that both carbs are on the idle stop. Clean the idle jets and replace. Take off air cleaners, operate the linkage and observe that each bore squirts. try to start car. two pumps on throttle, throttle close then twist key. If it fails to idle, seat each mixture screw counting the turns on each bore and write them down,observe if any are more than 2.5 turns. Seat the air bypass screws (only one should be open on each side). It's ok for all of theem to be closed, but not 2 open on a single side) Try to start the car using th method already described. You want to avoid using the pump jets two much, Let it stall if it wants to, it should run longer as it warms up.

hope this helps,
Carlos

Posted by: sdoolin Nov 29 2018, 07:33 AM

Watched the video also. I think you have a linkage problem, engine is likely only running on one side or the other at idle.

I have a uni-syn tool and like 30 years of experience living with dual carbs running off of a hex bar linkage, and I am 20 mins away. PMd you and should be able to assist this weekend.

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 29 2018, 11:30 AM

Thats why this website is great. PMed received, will call you at 5:00 to set up a time and to chat further.

Thanks all!

Also, and I may neglected to mention this. The reason that I took the linkage off was because I couldnt remove the throttle cable from the linkage. It appears that someone completely rounded out the set screw. I have a new cable on there, but it is likely not attached correctly. Anyway, there is enough slack so that the linkage returns to idle, so I really dont think that is a contributing issue, but be aware.

QUOTE(sdoolin @ Nov 29 2018, 08:33 AM) *

Watched the video also. I think you have a linkage problem, engine is likely only running on one side or the other at idle.

I have a uni-syn tool and like 30 years of experience living with dual carbs running off of a hex bar linkage, and I am 20 mins away. PMd you and should be able to assist this weekend.


Posted by: Mblizzard Nov 29 2018, 12:10 PM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 29 2018, 09:30 AM) *

Thats why this website is great. PMed received, will call you at 5:00 to set up a time and to chat further.

Thanks all!

Also, and I may neglected to mention this. The reason that I took the linkage off was because I couldnt remove the throttle cable from the linkage. It appears that someone completely rounded out the set screw. I have a new cable on there, but it is likely not attached correctly. Anyway, there is enough slack so that the linkage returns to idle, so I really dont think that is a contributing issue, but be aware.

QUOTE(sdoolin @ Nov 29 2018, 08:33 AM) *

Watched the video also. I think you have a linkage problem, engine is likely only running on one side or the other at idle.

I have a uni-syn tool and like 30 years of experience living with dual carbs running off of a hex bar linkage, and I am 20 mins away. PMd you and should be able to assist this weekend.


This is exactly what this is such a great community! People will actually provide their knowledge and offer to roll up their sleeves, get their hands dirty, and help!



Posted by: Tdskip Nov 29 2018, 01:50 PM

Making progress....please keep us posted and someone better buy @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17299 a beer.

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 29 2018, 03:35 PM

I got it covered..

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Nov 29 2018, 02:50 PM) *

Making progress....please keep us posted and someone better buy @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17299 a beer.


Posted by: cgnj Nov 30 2018, 05:18 AM

post a pic of your carbs and linkage as they are currently installed.

Posted by: ericoneal Nov 30 2018, 09:26 PM

sdoolin rolled over this afternoon in his great looking blue 914. We didnt make alot of progress, but I got a nice crash course in cleaning carb jets.

We cleaned the the jets, looked at the linkage synchronization, and double-checked the timing, with no effect. We know its getting spark and fuel because flames shooting out of the stacks. biggrin.gif

Not sure what else to check. Carbs are clean and mostly synced. Timing was double checked. Anyone have ANY ideas before I have thing towed on Tuesday would be more than welcome. poke.gif
Maybe I'll start a bounty with a small cash prize...

I really miss driving this thing.

Posted by: wndsrfr Dec 1 2018, 07:21 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 30 2018, 07:26 PM) *

sdoolin rolled over this afternoon in his great looking blue 914. We didnt make alot of progress, but I got a nice crash course in cleaning carb jets.

We cleaned the the jets, looked at the linkage synchronization, and double-checked the timing, with no effect. We know its getting spark and fuel because flames shooting out of the stacks. biggrin.gif

Not sure what else to check. Carbs are clean and mostly synced. Timing was double checked. Anyone have ANY ideas before I have thing towed on Tuesday would be more than welcome. poke.gif
Maybe I'll start a bounty with a small cash prize...

I really miss driving this thing.

Uhhhh....you're so close...if you're getting backfire flames then it's timing or just as simple as plug wires switched on the cap or the plug end....carefully go back over both...

Posted by: sdoolin Dec 1 2018, 09:02 AM

As Eric said, not a fuel issue. We removed and cleaned idle jets and main jets (they were clean but we double checked). Oh, and for the record my Dellortos are MUCH easier to work on - but that is another story. All accelerator pumps pushing gas, and carbs are synched well from side to side. Certainly well enough to run. Impressive flames out of the tops of the carbs seems like a timing issue. We did double check and it seemed correct (but Eric had a shit selection of beer so who knows if the timing was right).

Removed the number 2 plug and it was sooty and black, but dry. Then we lost battery. I think Eric is gonna replace plugs and wires (and maybe battery) and give it another shot before towing it.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 1 2018, 09:54 AM

Well - look at it this way, the carb work sounds like it needed to be done anyway so not a loss of effort.

Press on!

Posted by: cgnj Dec 1 2018, 11:23 AM

basics 101

At this point, I would jack it jp put in 5th and and confirm tdc ##1 but observing the valves. then confirm the rotor is point towards the index mark on distributor. Im anal, since I already dug in this far I would check the valve lash on all four any way.

If the timing is correct is mechanically correct, I'd target coil, points distributor, plugs wires.

Posted by: injunmort Dec 1 2018, 01:29 PM

do you have access to a timing light? how are you sure timing is correct. sounds like you need to reset static timing get the engine running and then set it with a light. if you are getting flames out of the carbs, you have a timing issue.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 1 2018, 01:34 PM

QUOTE(injunmort @ Dec 1 2018, 02:29 PM) *

do you have access to a timing light? how are you sure timing is correct. sounds like you need to reset static timing get the engine running and then set it with a light. if you are getting flames out of the carbs, you have a timing issue.


We put the engine at TDC, according to the fan, and the rotor was pointing at plug wire #1. Is there something else more to it than that?
Wondering if one or two of the sparkplugs are not firing now when cranking. Of course the battery is dead (I hope thats what it is), so it will be until tonight before I can test that.... headbang.gif
I have no idea what else to try.


Posted by: injunmort Dec 6 2018, 09:27 AM

yes, there is more to it than that. are you running points or electronic? with the engine on tdc on #1 compression, rotate distributor until points start to open. lock it down. put rotor/cap back on and start. warm up and then put timing light on #1. rev past 3500rpm and set your timing on the advance mark before tdc. done by loosening distributor and rotating until the marks align.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 6 2018, 09:48 AM

Thanks, I'm familar with timing the engine once its running, but at this point its only running for a split second unless I mash on the gas.
I think my next step is to be sure TDC is accurate although I have confirmed that the fan mark has the distributor pointing at plug wire one, then it should be. Going look at valves and mark on the fly wheel tonight as a double check.

QUOTE(injunmort @ Dec 6 2018, 10:27 AM) *

yes, there is more to it than that. are you running points or electronic? with the engine on tdc on #1 compression, rotate distributor until points start to open. lock it down. put rotor/cap back on and start. warm up and then put timing light on #1. rev past 3500rpm and set your timing on the advance mark before tdc. done by loosening distributor and rotating until the marks align.


Posted by: injunmort Dec 6 2018, 12:50 PM

you must make sure points are opening when you set tdc. while in there you might want to gap points and clean them. your points plate could be out even with the rotor pointing at #1.

Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 6 2018, 01:25 PM

Try turning the idle up using ONE idle speed adjusting screw. Just one. Dr side is most convenient. Now you have some weird linkage bind out of the equation and you can get a pretty high idle speed if needed. Did you go with the old carb to intake gaskets? I consider them a one time use item. Go thru the whole carb preinstall setup, Cb manual, air-cooled.net, etc. you'll be time ahead starting from scratch. Show us your linkage. How much does your cross bar shift side to side?

Posted by: mobymutt Dec 6 2018, 01:59 PM

Are you sure the firing order is correct? My car initially had plugged up carbs, timing off and not well synced, and the thing still ran (not well, but it ran). Only time I had symptoms like yours was when I switched the plug wires around.

Posted by: wndsrfr Dec 6 2018, 04:59 PM

QUOTE(mobymutt @ Dec 6 2018, 11:59 AM) *

Are you sure the firing order is correct? My car initially had plugged up carbs, timing off and not well synced, and the thing still ran (not well, but it ran). Only time I had symptoms like yours was when I switched the plug wires around.

agree.gif
However, I have seen a situation where the points rubbing block had worn entirely down due to no lube so the points were not really opening at all...be sure that they are actually breaking contact...check it with a test light, easy to do.

Posted by: Rand Dec 6 2018, 05:11 PM

I haven't read the whole thread. But you know the basics. Assuming compression hasn't suddenly changed, how have you test for spark and fuel? If you put a plug on a wire and ground it, does it spark? Ten seconds. Fuel gets a little more timely, but not hard. You have to answer fuel and spark before this continues spiraling. Timing and tuning comes AFTER that.

Posted by: Spoke Dec 7 2018, 06:48 PM

In the video, your first key turn resulted in the engine firing up and running strong for a second or 2. I'd guess that the timing is ok and the plugs are correctly routed.

Posted by: second wind Dec 7 2018, 07:20 PM

For $50 I would buy a new coil to totally eliminate that possibility....when I finally did my car suddenly started on only three cylinders as I forgot to connect one. Plugs do weird things under compression.....jus' sayin'
gg

Posted by: Rand Dec 7 2018, 08:35 PM

Coils have a VERY low failure rate. Test first.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 7 2018, 08:39 PM

QUOTE(Spoke @ Dec 7 2018, 07:48 PM) *

In the video, your first key turn resulted in the engine firing up and running strong for a second or 2. I'd guess that the timing is ok and the plugs are correctly routed.


With all of the changes might be a good idea to get a new video of how she sits as of now posted.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 7 2018, 09:15 PM

I got the new starter on today, so at least I am back at square one and she it turning over again. A new video woundnt be worth much as its still doing the same thing.
I set TDC again today with the fan and rotor pointing at plug one. THen got under the car and checked #1 valves. I could move the intake and exhaust rockers slightly and they were gapped perfectly, so that valve is closed(?), indicating true TDC. Also checked a mark I made on the flywheel for valve adjustments and it was there.

I tried a new distributor cap that I had in the basement, and nothing. I triple checked the plugs and even moved them 90 and 180 degrees to test.

So at this point we know:

The carbs are clean and somewhat adjusted
TDC is true and static timing should be on
I'm getting a spark on all four plug wires
Its getting fuel.

Next, I plan to check gap on the points. They were open at TDC, but maybe too much?
Also found a spare coil to try.

I have three more days to get this thing running..

Thanks for all of the suggestions guys, please keep them coming.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 8 2018, 01:56 AM

0.016", same as any other 914 or Type IV motor.

--DD

( via Google and Pelican)

Posted by: mobymutt Dec 8 2018, 01:57 PM

Maybe post some pictures of the wires, distributer, etc?

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 9 2018, 10:36 AM

Tested the coil and am getting a strong white spark. Point gaps are perfect at 0.016. Starting to suspect the distributor. I found this distributor in some parts that the previous owner gave me, so it should work. (Whatt the big silver thing on the side for?)

So, if I understand correctly how to replace the distributor, I just need to :
1. Put it at TDC
2. loosen the adjustment bolt
3. Rotate it to get to the 13mm removal bolt.
4. REmove.
5. Put in new distributor with rotor in same direction as one that I took out.

Any tricks here. I read something about a spring that could fall down in the engine? Is that on the distributor shaft, or is that below the gear shaft?

Basically, my only hesitation is doing something stupid, unknowingly, and having something fall into the engine.

Thanks

Attached Image

Posted by: Spoke Dec 9 2018, 10:48 AM

The item on the side of the distributor is the vacuum advance can. I doubt that the distributor is causing your issue. Going back to your first video, the engine turns over strong then chugs. It revs to about 3k RPM before dying. Nothing in the distributor would cause that except points.

It seems to me that your problem is fuel related. Have you tried starting fluid before starting to see if it revs up?

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 9 2018, 11:08 AM

Tried that too. At this point just going through the process of elimination. Fuel pump is shooting gas just fine and carbs are squirting gas on acceleration. Jets have been cleaned.

Posted by: cuddy_k Dec 9 2018, 11:14 AM

I’m thinking fuel as well. Could be that the pump is weak and/or the lines have some restriction somewhere and when the engine wants max juice it can’t keep up. Had the same issue on my mustang which baffled me till I finally replaced the pump.

Posted by: cgnj Dec 9 2018, 11:30 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Dec 9 2018, 09:36 AM) *

Tested the coil and am getting a strong white spark. Point gaps are perfect at 0.016. Starting to suspect the distributor. I found this distributor in some parts that the previous owner gave me, so it should work. (Whatt the big silver thing on the side for?)

So, if I understand correctly how to replace the distributor, I just need to :
1. Put it at TDC
2. loosen the adjustment bolt
3. Rotate it to get to the 13mm removal bolt.
4. REmove.
5. Put in new distributor with rotor in same direction as one that I took out.

Any tricks here. I read something about a spring that could fall down in the engine? Is that on the distributor shaft, or is that below the gear shaft?

Basically, my only hesitation is doing something stupid, unknowingly, and having something fall into the engine.

Thanks

Attached Image


Hi,
1. TDC on #1
2. yes
3. yes
4. rotor is keyed should point to close to index when installed.
5. I'd eyeball the distributor drive gar to confirm it is correctly indexed.
6. That a vacuum advance/retard can. do your carbs, hve ported vacum? it will work withit it hooked up.

Yes I lost the spring on the distributor. I had my son working on my 27- build when he was about 10. He dropped and it fell to the ottom of the case. Disassembled/reassemblemed motor. Have a pick in hand to tr\p the spring if you have to noodle with the gear. It's not likely unless this engine ran a Unilite with vacuum.

You are so close.


Posted by: Spoke Dec 9 2018, 11:46 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Dec 9 2018, 12:08 PM) *

Tried that too.


OK, so you sprayed starting fluid in each carb barrel and started it up. Did it jump to life or just chug like other times?

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 9 2018, 11:50 AM

After spraying, it takes a few times, then starts for 1-2 seconds at a high rpm like before, then dies.

Posted by: Spoke Dec 9 2018, 12:32 PM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Dec 9 2018, 12:50 PM) *

After spraying, it takes a few times, then starts for 1-2 seconds at a high rpm like before, then dies.


So with proper fuel, it revs up? I think you've hit the nail on the head. It appears you have some type of fuel issue.

If you have problems with timing, valves, distributor, points the engine likely wouldn't roar into action even with the starting fluid.

Posted by: euro911 Dec 9 2018, 02:49 PM

Have you checked the fuel pressure at the carb's fuel inlet(s) ... should be between 3 & 5 psi for carbs.

If it's not, I'd disconnect the hose from the line going to the engine bay and check for pressure right at the pump's output port.

I'd also recommend checking/cleaning or replacing the screen in the supply line at the fuel tank outlet and change any fuel filter(s) in the supply line as needed.

Add fresh fuel and see what happens. If it's still not starting, I'd pull the carb tops off and check float bowl levels - they may be stuck or the inlet check valve(s) may be gummed-up due to sitting and not allowing fuel to fill them. Pull those valves and clean them up as well.

Posted by: injunmort Dec 9 2018, 02:54 PM

you have still not timed it. yes the distributor and engine are at tdc, but you have not rotated the distributor into correct position. at tdc, on #1, the points should just start to open. I do this by a piece of cellophane between the points, rotating the distributor until the cellophane comes out of the points with light pressure. everything can be pointing in the right direction and it is still not statically timed.

Posted by: tom.esh Dec 9 2018, 03:03 PM

How old is the gas in the tank? Could it just be bad gas?

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 11 2018, 08:21 AM

Bump for an update and any help needed to get you back on the road.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 11 2018, 09:35 AM

I'm starting to think its a fuel pressure issue myself, although it shot gas into bottles when the pump was on, maybe its crapping out after ignition?

As far as timing, we already set TDC and rotated the distributor each way while cranking with no luck.

Anyway, time is now up, and she is off to the clinic:

Attached Image

Will let you guys know what they find.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 11 2018, 09:36 AM

Please do!

Posted by: wndsrfr Dec 11 2018, 09:51 AM

I'm betting on the points....

Posted by: Jamie Dec 11 2018, 10:46 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Dec 11 2018, 07:35 AM) *

I'm starting to think its a fuel pressure issue myself, although it shot gas into bottles when the pump was on, maybe its crapping out after ignition?

As far as timing, we already set TDC and rotated the distributor each way while cranking with no luck.

Anyway, time is now up, and she is off to the clinic:

Attached Image

Will let you guys know what they find.


What "clinic?" confused24.gif

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 11 2018, 11:54 AM

Stuttgart Specialists, here in Louisville.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 13 2018, 03:17 PM

Any news?


Posted by: ericoneal Dec 17 2018, 09:31 AM

So as suspected all along, the problem would turn out to be something small and embarrassing:

I left a washer between one of the carbs and the head. WTF.gif causing a huge vacuum leak. So it fires up and runs great now, the mechanic also sorted out some other issues and dumbassery (not all mine) that he found in the engine bay as well.

But all is not well:

I drove her home Satuday night (20 miles or so) and she dumped two quarts of oil out of the connection between the transmission and engine. So rear main seal? Its bad. Really bad...
I didnt change the seal when I did the clutch because it never leaked and I didnt want to mess with the flywheel and all that could go wrong with getting that back on.
Is it possible for this seal to get damaged when inserting the transmission shaft back on during re-install? How/why did this happen now?

Posted by: VaccaRabite Dec 17 2018, 09:57 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Dec 17 2018, 10:31 AM) *

So as suspected all along, the problem would turn out to be something small and embarrassing:

I left a washer between one of the carbs and the head. WTF.gif causing a huge vacuum leak. So it fires up and runs great now, the mechanic also sorted out some other issues and dumbassery (not all mine) that he found in the engine bay as well.

But all is not well:

I drove her home Satuday night (20 miles or so) and she dumped two quarts of oil out of the connection between the transmission and engine. So rear main seal? Its bad. Really bad...
I didnt change the seal when I did the clutch because it never leaked and I didnt want to mess with the flywheel and all that could go wrong with getting that back on.
Is it possible for this seal to get damaged when inserting the transmission shaft back on during re-install? How/why did this happen now?



Maybe RMS.

Yes its possible to damage it replacing the transmission, but you have to try. Its likely that the seal was just old and tired and it was its time. Pull the transmission out and put a new seal in. Also a good time to check your clutch and flywheel.

BUT!
There are some freeze plugs back there that can come loose too. and when they do they will dump a ton of oil quickly. Many of us pull the freeze plugs out and thread the bungs and put pipe fittings there instead. Either way, you need to pull off the transmission and look and see. If it was a freeze plug you were lucky not to loose the engine.

Zach

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Dec 17 2018, 09:58 AM

I would say that it blew out a galley plug to spill that much oil


QUOTE(ericoneal @ Dec 17 2018, 08:31 AM) *

So as suspected all along, the problem would turn out to be something small and embarrassing:

I left a washer between one of the carbs and the head. WTF.gif causing a huge vacuum leak. So it fires up and runs great now, the mechanic also sorted out some other issues and dumbassery (not all mine) that he found in the engine bay as well.

But all is not well:

I drove her home Satuday night (20 miles or so) and she dumped two quarts of oil out of the connection between the transmission and engine. So rear main seal? Its bad. Really bad...
I didnt change the seal when I did the clutch because it never leaked and I didnt want to mess with the flywheel and all that could go wrong with getting that back on.
Is it possible for this seal to get damaged when inserting the transmission shaft back on during re-install? How/why did this happen now?


Posted by: Tdskip Dec 17 2018, 10:00 AM

Glad she is running well, at least that is sort it out.

Thanks for the update


Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 17 2018, 10:11 AM

With all the cranking, peddle pushing and fuel squirting, the oil is prob loaded with fuel.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 17 2018, 10:15 AM

I drained the two quarts that were left and put in 3 3/4 quarts new last night. Degreased the engine as best I could so I could fire her up and watch for the leak.

Here is the leak, just after shutting the engine off.

https://youtu.be/HHcOx4lGmqw

Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 17 2018, 11:14 AM

You'll know whether it's a galley plug or RMS after the trans is separated from the engine. Prepare yourself for a not so swell bill. Bummer...

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 30 2018, 07:08 PM

Checking back in, have a look at this:

Finally got time to get the transmission off and removed the main seal tonight. Definitely seemed to be leaking from there:


Attached Image


Removed the seal and bunch of scrap metel filaments fell out. I was expecting to find some end-play shims in there, is this whats left of those? Shouldnt they be wider (when intact)?


Attached Image

and final shot once everything is removed. Clutch is still clean of oil and flywheel seems fine. Have not found felt washer in there either. I bought everything to do the seal, but I guess I am going to need shims now...

Attached Image


What can you guys make of all this? Thanks for input everyone.

Posted by: injunmort Dec 30 2018, 07:46 PM

there are no shims behind the seal. that's whats left of the seal springs. looking at pre seal removal, its pretty obvious where the seal failed. new seal and reassemble. galley plug looks like it has indian head smeared on it and probably not the worst idea.

Posted by: wndsrfr Dec 30 2018, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(injunmort @ Dec 30 2018, 05:46 PM) *

there are no shims behind the seal. that's whats left of the seal springs. looking at pre seal removal, its pretty obvious where the seal failed. new seal and reassemble. galley plug looks like it has indian head smeared on it and probably not the worst idea.

IIRC There certainly are supposed to be three shims sandwiched between the flywheel and the end bearing surface....looks to me like the remains of a badly rashed shim there and if that's the bearing surface it's rashed also...

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 30 2018, 08:12 PM

It must be shim remains because the seal spring is still inside the seal and is intact. But how can this happen to the shims?

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 31 2018, 12:21 PM

QUOTE(injunmort @ Dec 30 2018, 05:46 PM) *

there are no shims behind the seal. that's whats left of the seal springs. looking at pre seal removal, its pretty obvious where the seal failed. new seal and reassemble. galley plug looks like it has indian head smeared on it and probably not the worst idea.



Shims are there for crank end play which you will need to reset since they are destroyed.

Have the flywheel checked for balance and wear.

It could be bad or installed incorrectly.

Good thing it is just a TIV.

The DMF's in the newer P cars' are expensive.

Posted by: injunmort Dec 31 2018, 01:05 PM

if that is in fact shim remains, it was installed in the wrong place. the seal goes into the journal, the flywheel goes into the seal and is bolted up with shim on the flywheel. not behind it. see the pin on the crank, that corresponds to the flywheel, nothing in between. the shim as mentioned is for crank endplay. the bolts for the flywheel go through the shims and into the hub. the only way you could get shim remains back there with seal remains is if it was istalled in the wrong place. to confirm this I pulled the clutch on a motor I have in the garage there is the shim on the flywheel. io pulled the flywheel, seal that's it. when you pulled the flywheel bolts to remove it, was there a shimplate between all the bolts holding them to the flywheel? if not, there is your answer.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 31 2018, 01:22 PM

Hard question to answer. I dont know where the shims were installed because there was really just shards left (what you see in the picture). They seemed, from what I could tell, to be around the crank and behind the the main seal.
I found this set of flywheel shims online:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/flywheel-shims-pack-of-5/98089a742~ecs/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAmafhBRDUARIsACOKERNtzAs8EL_5igJ_TF-9MXh47O8f6iU-66YRmoKRXFJy2MqVxXlqZ14aAhP8EALw_wcB

but you mention: "..the bolts for the flywheel go through the shims and into the hub. " but I dont see any way for a bolt to go through these.

Are you referring to the flywheel washer?
https://aapistons.com/collections/flywheel-shims/products/flywheel-washer-type-4

If so, the yes, that was there.

Posted by: injunmort Dec 31 2018, 01:46 PM

I am going to pull the flywheel off another motor now. I will be back

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 31 2018, 01:59 PM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Dec 30 2018, 06:12 PM) *

It must be shim remains because the seal spring is still inside the seal and is intact. But how can this happen to the shims?



Installed incorrectly be my quess.

Check everything.

Have the crank run out checked.

Something is wrong there.

The shims should be stacked tight against the #1 Bearing Journal against the RMS.

Flywheel could have been loose. You may have dodged a bullet.


Posted by: injunmort Dec 31 2018, 02:13 PM

this engine has three shims behind the oil seal. I stand corrected. according to Haynes, do not install seal. put two shims in and measure end play. that gives you the thickness of the third shim. then install flywheel and tighten.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 31 2018, 02:45 PM

Yeah, I'm with you on all of that. Just concerned as to how these shims could get destroyed like that. Flywheel was very tight when I took it off.
Car seems to run just fine except for the oil leak.

I also dont know what size shims to buy now. Looks like I will need to mail order them blindly unless there is a correlation between the measurement with 0 shims vs the various thicknesses offered.

Posted by: injunmort Dec 31 2018, 03:41 PM

install the flywheel. measure endplay and order 3 put it in spec.

Posted by: euro911 Dec 31 2018, 04:36 PM

Here ya go, Eric ... everything you need to know to get it into spec. shades.gif




BTW, I use Victor Reinz seals ... Elrings seem to have a QC issue or something, they've always leaked on me.

Posted by: ericoneal Dec 31 2018, 08:37 PM

THanks, will check that out. I've actually watched quite a few of his videos and I think he is also from Kentucky.

QUOTE(euro911 @ Dec 31 2018, 05:36 PM) *

Here ya go, Eric ... everything you need to know to get it into spec. shades.gif




BTW, I use Victor Reinz seals ... Elrings seem to have a QC issue or something, they've always leaked on me.


Posted by: cgnj Jan 1 2019, 10:37 AM

That doesn't look like enough material for 3 shims

Posted by: wndsrfr Jan 1 2019, 12:17 PM

QUOTE(cgnj @ Jan 1 2019, 08:37 AM) *

That doesn't look like enough material for 3 shims

Might explain why it's rashed up if only one was in there....

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 8 2019, 08:02 AM

Hi all, still working on this and finally have the proper tools.
But I'm having a hell of a time with the flywheel shims.

I bought a pack from ecstuning.com, but they were all the same size, so I'm not sure how that would ever work unless I got very lucky.

From my calculations now, with three .3 shims in and .12 freeplay left, it appears that I will need a .3, and .34, and another .34 to get me at .04 endplay.

As I said, I have a whole pack of .3.

Does anyone have or know where I can get two .34 shims?

Will these fit our cars? (see no mention of 914 or even Type 4 on some of these pages)

http://www.busdepot.com/113105287a

https://www.gowesty.com/product/mechanical/24288/flywheel-shim-various-sizes-


This is the last step to get me back running. Should do a write up on all of this for the next guy...


Posted by: IronHillRestorations Jan 8 2019, 08:31 AM

I only use Sabo rear main seals Eric. They are the only ones I've found to be the right depth. I found them at GoWesty

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 8 2019, 08:33 AM

Have the seal, need the shims

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 8 2019, 09:01 AM

FYI for anyone reading this, found them here:

https://www.thegansmann.com/products/crankshaft-endplay-shims

and also here:

http://www.busdepot.com/021105285


Expensive!

Posted by: 76-914 Jan 8 2019, 09:32 AM

QUOTE(IronHillRestorations @ Jan 8 2019, 06:31 AM) *

I only use Sabo rear main seals Eric. They are the only ones I've found to be the right depth. I found them at GoWesty

agree.gif

Posted by: worn Jan 8 2019, 10:21 AM

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Jan 8 2019, 07:01 AM) *

FYI for anyone reading this, found them here:

https://www.thegansmann.com/products/crankshaft-endplay-shims

and also here:

http://www.busdepot.com/021105285


Expensive!

Can you post a picture of the mating surface of the flywheel? Also, is the oil hole under the seal open to the inside of the case? It seems wise to understand the cause of the shim destruction before reassembly. I am thinking that the aluminum case isn't going to chew up steel shims, but maybe they dried up and got really hot.

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 8 2019, 10:32 AM

Good thinking. I will double check the surface tonight. I think the oil hole is indeed open because it was leaking like a sieve through the rear seal.

My suspicion, from looking at the remnants of the shims compared to the new ones that I have now, is that mayne the wrong diameters ones were used. But who knows for sure?

QUOTE(worn @ Jan 8 2019, 11:21 AM) *

QUOTE(ericoneal @ Jan 8 2019, 07:01 AM) *

FYI for anyone reading this, found them here:

https://www.thegansmann.com/products/crankshaft-endplay-shims

and also here:

http://www.busdepot.com/021105285


Expensive!

Can you post a picture of the mating surface of the flywheel? Also, is the oil hole under the seal open to the inside of the case? It seems wise to understand the cause of the shim destruction before reassembly. I am thinking that the aluminum case isn't going to chew up steel shims, but maybe they dried up and got really hot.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 8 2019, 11:27 AM

Expensive at $12?

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 8 2019, 02:49 PM

In comparison to the Type I shims, which are running around $2.

Posted by: cwpeden Jan 8 2019, 03:54 PM

Where did you find a value of .04 for endplay?

If you achieve that you will be very disappointed with the result...you want about .1 mm or .003-.005 inches

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 8 2019, 08:37 PM


.004 is what I meant.


QUOTE(cwpeden @ Jan 8 2019, 04:54 PM) *

Where did you find a value of .04 for endplay?

If you achieve that you will be very disappointed with the result...you want about .1 mm or .003-.005 inches


Posted by: cwpeden Jan 9 2019, 08:20 AM

smilie_pokal.gif

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 28 2019, 07:15 AM

I'm back on the road everyone, at least for now. She fired up and sounded good. Took her around the block with NO oil leaks. Finally..

Posted by: 76-914 Jan 28 2019, 10:07 AM

Congrats. You've got to be piratenanner.gif

Posted by: Tdskip Jan 28 2019, 11:12 AM

Excellent!

Posted by: sdoolin Jan 28 2019, 02:29 PM

Good deal! Just in time for the freaking polar vortex to hit our neck of the woods.

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 28 2019, 03:50 PM

Really.. by the time I get her in to winter storage, it will be time to get her out.
Thanks again for the help awhile back.



QUOTE(sdoolin @ Jan 28 2019, 03:29 PM) *

Good deal! Just in time for the freaking polar vortex to hit our neck of the woods.


Posted by: IronHillRestorations Jan 28 2019, 08:27 PM

Good to hear it's up and running. Is that the core engine you got from me?

Posted by: ericoneal Jan 28 2019, 08:29 PM

No, that one is still in the basement, but I have scavenged a couple of parts (alternator tin) from it.
Someday I have dreams of building it into a 2056.

QUOTE(IronHillRestorations @ Jan 28 2019, 09:27 PM) *

Good to hear it's up and running. Is that the core engine you got from me?


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