I took my engine out (dual carburetors) awhile back to put in a new clutch. Reinstalled the engine and now it wont start unless I pump the accelerator pedal like crazy. Also, the tach is not working which seems to indicate maybe a coil problem?
I am getting plenty of fuel in the carbs and a spark on all for plug wires. I tried also rotating the distributor slightly each way to check that maybe it was a timing issue, but that did nothing.
Like I said, the car starts if I pump the gas pedal, but will not stay running if I do not.
Stumped. Any ideas guys? I'm sure its something simple, this thing ran great before...
Anything else to try would be helpful. THanks
check the dwell angle and make sure it is good at 50. Also check the leads to the coil, green and black with purple on the 1 or negative side, and black on the positive or 15 side. After that check the fuel pump to make sure that it is delivering fuel by removing a the hose where it comes up into the engine bay and putting it into a bottle and turn the key on to start the pump running. It should deliver a steady stream.
You can also statically set the timing to get it close to where it should be by putting the car on number one top dead center on a compression stroke and the zero mark on the fan. Then put a test light on the negative side of the coil and move both ways a bit to where the light turns and then just turns off. When it just turns off that should be timing on zero degrees, good enough to start the engine. Beyond that you could have a carb problem where maybe after sitting the floats are sticking
Pretty sure the coil is wired correctly, I took pictures before I unhooked it, odd that the tach is no longer working though..
Fuel pump is running and fuel is squirting into carbs, will check to be sure its steady tonight. Also checked to be sure rotor was pointing are plug 1 when at TDC on fan. Test light is good idea, will check that as well.
Will Google sticky floats.
Because the Tach draws its signal from the coil, I have to think there is a problem in the way you put the wires back on the coil.
If you didn't move the distributor when the engine was out - and it ran fine before - leave it and focus on the wiring connections. Don't think the timing would change by itself.... One thing at a time!
Before moving on to anything else you may want to see if it will run well on ether.
EDIT - if the wiring is OK and it runs on ether then it might be floats / fuel level.
Keep us posted.
Spark, air, fuel, compression. It's one of those.
Start with making sure your ignition is working right; timing (including dwell), firing order is correct, and make sure your all other ignition components are good. I have a spark tester where you can see the spark, and adjust the air gap to make sure you're getting a hot enough spark.
I'd pull your points and make sure they are good. Look at the distributor cap and make sure the center contact hasn't come out. Check the resistance of your coil. Replace the condenser if it's suspect at all.
Make sure your plugs aren't fouled and the correct heat range for a carb'd engine.
Make sure you are getting enough fuel. I personally have bent a rubber fuel hose enough to restrict fuel flow to cause a problem. Some fuel hose is more susceptible to this. I personally haven't used propane, but I've been told you can blow propane down the carb throats enough to get an engine to run.
I've put gas in a mist bottle and sprayed it in the carbs (using protective leather jacket and gloves) but I'd consider it a risky move if you aren't set up to do it (adult help, fire extinguisher, etc).
Still no luck, here is what I did:
1. I checked the fuel lines to both carbs, plenty of gas from the fuel pump.
2. put new connectors on wires to the coil, double checked they were wired correctly. Tach works now.
3. Set TDC to be sure rotor was pointing at mark on distributes (plug 1)
4. Checked connections on the relay board.
5. INspected distributor cap, all looked fine.
6. Checked for kinks in the fuel line
7. Checked firing order.
8. Checked for spark by connecting strobe to wires to see flash, did not check spark at plugs. Did do this when I was having issues a couple months ago and they were fine.
9. Points were also checked at that time and were fine.
I made a video of what is happening, maybe it will be obvious to one of you. Note crazy legs on the gas pedal just to keep it running.
I really dont want to have this thing towed...
That sounds like a P-51 Merlin warming up.
Seems like a fuel issue to me ( May well be wrong, make sure to get lots of other opinions)
Have you clean the carbs yet? I wonder if they got gunked up while they were sitting?
How long were they off the car?
I lost three months of run time with my car due to bad coil.....plugs would spark but not under compression.....worth a try to change coil....my two cents....
I have o say its fuel as well.
Do the standard spray starting fluid in carbs to see if it runs.
If it does run then check fuel pressure if it is low look for kinked line. next start the process of cleaning out the carbs.
I sprayed fluid in the carbs and it fires up easier, but still runs like the same, like crap...
Is there details or a walk through somewhere for cleaning these things? Do I need to tear them down, or can I just shoot some carb cleaner on them?
Is it possible to maintain 2.7-3k rpm with a steady, not pumping, gas peddle? Points or A.M. Spark module?
How long did it sit? My guess is the fuel that was left in the carb float bowls evaporated down and has gummed them up.
Based on reading your replies, I'd start by pulling all the jets and soaking them in carb cleaner. That said, the best thing would be to pull the carbs, disassemble, clean/soak, put in a new gasket kit, put them back on the car.
I'd change the fuel filter too, regardless.
Sent the video to a local guy here who is very good and he also suspects the carbs, in particular the linkage, and whether it may be out of adjustment.
I have VERY good reason to think that the linkage was mucked with egregiously when I pulled the engine out.
What say you guys? Are these the symptoms of a badly adjusted dual carb linkage?
I double and triple checked all of the wires and I'm pretty sure my electrical connections are good and its getting plenty of fuel form the pump.
Its a single hexbar between the two. Pretty sure it seriously screwed. At least im hoping its as bad as I think
You should be able to disconnect the bar and set each carb to idle and fire it up.
I'd try than and report back.
Sounds like the engine is fighting itself to run from being out of time. Fried condenser might cause that too, but it sounds ignition to me!
It may sound stupid but maybe a kinked fuel line or clogged fuel filter.
You have unsteady firing from a number of cylinders, but there is fuel so the car runs. It could be a carb or ignition problem. How do you know you have a strong spark at each plug? How old are your plugs and plug wires? Are any of the plug wires arcing to metal where they are touching. Plug wires will show where they are discharging to metal grounds. For this reason I make sure none of my plug wires are touching metal or each other by looming them and by using zip-ties to make wire separators. Check for fouled plugs. They should not have excessive gap or wear, nor excessive deposits. A spark checker or an inductive timing light placed right before the spark plug can tell you if one or more of your plug wires is grounding out to metal. Once you are sure you have a strong spark at each plug, then you can start to look for erratic fuel delivery problems. If you have a dual carb set up, it may then be caused by clogged jets or an adjustment on one or more barrels. Might be a good time to check the balance of flow and re-tune.
I will double check the spark tonight by pulling the plugs and watching them. Previously just used timing light on plug wire to check for spark.
Fuel lines are not kinked, checked those. Will post back. THanks for all of the suggestions everyone.
Watched the video also. I think you have a linkage problem, engine is likely only running on one side or the other at idle.
I have a uni-syn tool and like 30 years of experience living with dual carbs running off of a hex bar linkage, and I am 20 mins away. PMd you and should be able to assist this weekend.
Thats why this website is great. PMed received, will call you at 5:00 to set up a time and to chat further.
Also, and I may neglected to mention this. The reason that I took the linkage off was because I couldnt remove the throttle cable from the linkage. It appears that someone completely rounded out the set screw. I have a new cable on there, but it is likely not attached correctly. Anyway, there is enough slack so that the linkage returns to idle, so I really dont think that is a contributing issue, but be aware.
Making progress....please keep us posted and someone better buy @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17299 a beer.
I got it covered..
post a pic of your carbs and linkage as they are currently installed.
sdoolin rolled over this afternoon in his great looking blue 914. We didnt make alot of progress, but I got a nice crash course in cleaning carb jets.
We cleaned the the jets, looked at the linkage synchronization, and double-checked the timing, with no effect. We know its getting spark and fuel because flames shooting out of the stacks.
Not sure what else to check. Carbs are clean and mostly synced. Timing was double checked. Anyone have ANY ideas before I have thing towed on Tuesday would be more than welcome.
Maybe I'll start a bounty with a small cash prize...
I really miss driving this thing.
As Eric said, not a fuel issue. We removed and cleaned idle jets and main jets (they were clean but we double checked). Oh, and for the record my Dellortos are MUCH easier to work on - but that is another story. All accelerator pumps pushing gas, and carbs are synched well from side to side. Certainly well enough to run. Impressive flames out of the tops of the carbs seems like a timing issue. We did double check and it seemed correct (but Eric had a shit selection of beer so who knows if the timing was right).
Removed the number 2 plug and it was sooty and black, but dry. Then we lost battery. I think Eric is gonna replace plugs and wires (and maybe battery) and give it another shot before towing it.
Well - look at it this way, the carb work sounds like it needed to be done anyway so not a loss of effort.
At this point, I would jack it jp put in 5th and and confirm tdc ##1 but observing the valves. then confirm the rotor is point towards the index mark on distributor. Im anal, since I already dug in this far I would check the valve lash on all four any way.
If the timing is correct is mechanically correct, I'd target coil, points distributor, plugs wires.
do you have access to a timing light? how are you sure timing is correct. sounds like you need to reset static timing get the engine running and then set it with a light. if you are getting flames out of the carbs, you have a timing issue.
yes, there is more to it than that. are you running points or electronic? with the engine on tdc on #1 compression, rotate distributor until points start to open. lock it down. put rotor/cap back on and start. warm up and then put timing light on #1. rev past 3500rpm and set your timing on the advance mark before tdc. done by loosening distributor and rotating until the marks align.
Thanks, I'm familar with timing the engine once its running, but at this point its only running for a split second unless I mash on the gas.
I think my next step is to be sure TDC is accurate although I have confirmed that the fan mark has the distributor pointing at plug wire one, then it should be. Going look at valves and mark on the fly wheel tonight as a double check.
you must make sure points are opening when you set tdc. while in there you might want to gap points and clean them. your points plate could be out even with the rotor pointing at #1.
Try turning the idle up using ONE idle speed adjusting screw. Just one. Dr side is most convenient. Now you have some weird linkage bind out of the equation and you can get a pretty high idle speed if needed. Did you go with the old carb to intake gaskets? I consider them a one time use item. Go thru the whole carb preinstall setup, Cb manual, air-cooled.net, etc. you'll be time ahead starting from scratch. Show us your linkage. How much does your cross bar shift side to side?
Are you sure the firing order is correct? My car initially had plugged up carbs, timing off and not well synced, and the thing still ran (not well, but it ran). Only time I had symptoms like yours was when I switched the plug wires around.
I haven't read the whole thread. But you know the basics. Assuming compression hasn't suddenly changed, how have you test for spark and fuel? If you put a plug on a wire and ground it, does it spark? Ten seconds. Fuel gets a little more timely, but not hard. You have to answer fuel and spark before this continues spiraling. Timing and tuning comes AFTER that.
In the video, your first key turn resulted in the engine firing up and running strong for a second or 2. I'd guess that the timing is ok and the plugs are correctly routed.
For $50 I would buy a new coil to totally eliminate that possibility....when I finally did my car suddenly started on only three cylinders as I forgot to connect one. Plugs do weird things under compression.....jus' sayin'
Coils have a VERY low failure rate. Test first.
I got the new starter on today, so at least I am back at square one and she it turning over again. A new video woundnt be worth much as its still doing the same thing.
I set TDC again today with the fan and rotor pointing at plug one. THen got under the car and checked #1 valves. I could move the intake and exhaust rockers slightly and they were gapped perfectly, so that valve is closed(?), indicating true TDC. Also checked a mark I made on the flywheel for valve adjustments and it was there.
I tried a new distributor cap that I had in the basement, and nothing. I triple checked the plugs and even moved them 90 and 180 degrees to test.
So at this point we know:
The carbs are clean and somewhat adjusted
TDC is true and static timing should be on
I'm getting a spark on all four plug wires
Its getting fuel.
Next, I plan to check gap on the points. They were open at TDC, but maybe too much?
Also found a spare coil to try.
I have three more days to get this thing running..
Thanks for all of the suggestions guys, please keep them coming.
0.016", same as any other 914 or Type IV motor.
( via Google and Pelican)
Maybe post some pictures of the wires, distributer, etc?
Tested the coil and am getting a strong white spark. Point gaps are perfect at 0.016. Starting to suspect the distributor. I found this distributor in some parts that the previous owner gave me, so it should work. (Whatt the big silver thing on the side for?)
So, if I understand correctly how to replace the distributor, I just need to :
1. Put it at TDC
2. loosen the adjustment bolt
3. Rotate it to get to the 13mm removal bolt.
5. Put in new distributor with rotor in same direction as one that I took out.
Any tricks here. I read something about a spring that could fall down in the engine? Is that on the distributor shaft, or is that below the gear shaft?
Basically, my only hesitation is doing something stupid, unknowingly, and having something fall into the engine.
The item on the side of the distributor is the vacuum advance can. I doubt that the distributor is causing your issue. Going back to your first video, the engine turns over strong then chugs. It revs to about 3k RPM before dying. Nothing in the distributor would cause that except points.
It seems to me that your problem is fuel related. Have you tried starting fluid before starting to see if it revs up?
Tried that too. At this point just going through the process of elimination. Fuel pump is shooting gas just fine and carbs are squirting gas on acceleration. Jets have been cleaned.
I’m thinking fuel as well. Could be that the pump is weak and/or the lines have some restriction somewhere and when the engine wants max juice it can’t keep up. Had the same issue on my mustang which baffled me till I finally replaced the pump.
After spraying, it takes a few times, then starts for 1-2 seconds at a high rpm like before, then dies.
Have you checked the fuel pressure at the carb's fuel inlet(s) ... should be between 3 & 5 psi for carbs.
If it's not, I'd disconnect the hose from the line going to the engine bay and check for pressure right at the pump's output port.
I'd also recommend checking/cleaning or replacing the screen in the supply line at the fuel tank outlet and change any fuel filter(s) in the supply line as needed.
Add fresh fuel and see what happens. If it's still not starting, I'd pull the carb tops off and check float bowl levels - they may be stuck or the inlet check valve(s) may be gummed-up due to sitting and not allowing fuel to fill them. Pull those valves and clean them up as well.
you have still not timed it. yes the distributor and engine are at tdc, but you have not rotated the distributor into correct position. at tdc, on #1, the points should just start to open. I do this by a piece of cellophane between the points, rotating the distributor until the cellophane comes out of the points with light pressure. everything can be pointing in the right direction and it is still not statically timed.
How old is the gas in the tank? Could it just be bad gas?
Bump for an update and any help needed to get you back on the road.
I'm starting to think its a fuel pressure issue myself, although it shot gas into bottles when the pump was on, maybe its crapping out after ignition?
As far as timing, we already set TDC and rotated the distributor each way while cranking with no luck.
Anyway, time is now up, and she is off to the clinic:
Will let you guys know what they find.
I'm betting on the points....
Stuttgart Specialists, here in Louisville.
So as suspected all along, the problem would turn out to be something small and embarrassing:
I left a washer between one of the carbs and the head. causing a huge vacuum leak. So it fires up and runs great now, the mechanic also sorted out some other issues and dumbassery (not all mine) that he found in the engine bay as well.
But all is not well:
I drove her home Satuday night (20 miles or so) and she dumped two quarts of oil out of the connection between the transmission and engine. So rear main seal? Its bad. Really bad...
I didnt change the seal when I did the clutch because it never leaked and I didnt want to mess with the flywheel and all that could go wrong with getting that back on.
Is it possible for this seal to get damaged when inserting the transmission shaft back on during re-install? How/why did this happen now?
I would say that it blew out a galley plug to spill that much oil
Glad she is running well, at least that is sort it out.
Thanks for the update
With all the cranking, peddle pushing and fuel squirting, the oil is prob loaded with fuel.
I drained the two quarts that were left and put in 3 3/4 quarts new last night. Degreased the engine as best I could so I could fire her up and watch for the leak.
Here is the leak, just after shutting the engine off.
You'll know whether it's a galley plug or RMS after the trans is separated from the engine. Prepare yourself for a not so swell bill. Bummer...
Checking back in, have a look at this:
Finally got time to get the transmission off and removed the main seal tonight. Definitely seemed to be leaking from there:
Removed the seal and bunch of scrap metel filaments fell out. I was expecting to find some end-play shims in there, is this whats left of those? Shouldnt they be wider (when intact)?
and final shot once everything is removed. Clutch is still clean of oil and flywheel seems fine. Have not found felt washer in there either. I bought everything to do the seal, but I guess I am going to need shims now...
What can you guys make of all this? Thanks for input everyone.
there are no shims behind the seal. that's whats left of the seal springs. looking at pre seal removal, its pretty obvious where the seal failed. new seal and reassemble. galley plug looks like it has indian head smeared on it and probably not the worst idea.
It must be shim remains because the seal spring is still inside the seal and is intact. But how can this happen to the shims?
if that is in fact shim remains, it was installed in the wrong place. the seal goes into the journal, the flywheel goes into the seal and is bolted up with shim on the flywheel. not behind it. see the pin on the crank, that corresponds to the flywheel, nothing in between. the shim as mentioned is for crank endplay. the bolts for the flywheel go through the shims and into the hub. the only way you could get shim remains back there with seal remains is if it was istalled in the wrong place. to confirm this I pulled the clutch on a motor I have in the garage there is the shim on the flywheel. io pulled the flywheel, seal that's it. when you pulled the flywheel bolts to remove it, was there a shimplate between all the bolts holding them to the flywheel? if not, there is your answer.
Hard question to answer. I dont know where the shims were installed because there was really just shards left (what you see in the picture). They seemed, from what I could tell, to be around the crank and behind the the main seal.
I found this set of flywheel shims online:
but you mention: "..the bolts for the flywheel go through the shims and into the hub. " but I dont see any way for a bolt to go through these.
Are you referring to the flywheel washer?
If so, the yes, that was there.
I am going to pull the flywheel off another motor now. I will be back
this engine has three shims behind the oil seal. I stand corrected. according to Haynes, do not install seal. put two shims in and measure end play. that gives you the thickness of the third shim. then install flywheel and tighten.
Yeah, I'm with you on all of that. Just concerned as to how these shims could get destroyed like that. Flywheel was very tight when I took it off.
Car seems to run just fine except for the oil leak.
I also dont know what size shims to buy now. Looks like I will need to mail order them blindly unless there is a correlation between the measurement with 0 shims vs the various thicknesses offered.
install the flywheel. measure endplay and order 3 put it in spec.
Here ya go, Eric ... everything you need to know to get it into spec.
BTW, I use Victor Reinz seals ... Elrings seem to have a QC issue or something, they've always leaked on me.
THanks, will check that out. I've actually watched quite a few of his videos and I think he is also from Kentucky.
That doesn't look like enough material for 3 shims
Hi all, still working on this and finally have the proper tools.
But I'm having a hell of a time with the flywheel shims.
I bought a pack from ecstuning.com, but they were all the same size, so I'm not sure how that would ever work unless I got very lucky.
From my calculations now, with three .3 shims in and .12 freeplay left, it appears that I will need a .3, and .34, and another .34 to get me at .04 endplay.
As I said, I have a whole pack of .3.
Does anyone have or know where I can get two .34 shims?
Will these fit our cars? (see no mention of 914 or even Type 4 on some of these pages)
This is the last step to get me back running. Should do a write up on all of this for the next guy...
I only use Sabo rear main seals Eric. They are the only ones I've found to be the right depth. I found them at GoWesty
Have the seal, need the shims
FYI for anyone reading this, found them here:
and also here:
Good thinking. I will double check the surface tonight. I think the oil hole is indeed open because it was leaking like a sieve through the rear seal.
My suspicion, from looking at the remnants of the shims compared to the new ones that I have now, is that mayne the wrong diameters ones were used. But who knows for sure?
Expensive at $12?
In comparison to the Type I shims, which are running around $2.
Where did you find a value of .04 for endplay?
If you achieve that you will be very disappointed with the result...you want about .1 mm or .003-.005 inches
.004 is what I meant.
I'm back on the road everyone, at least for now. She fired up and sounded good. Took her around the block with NO oil leaks. Finally..
Congrats. You've got to be
Good deal! Just in time for the freaking polar vortex to hit our neck of the woods.
Really.. by the time I get her in to winter storage, it will be time to get her out.
Thanks again for the help awhile back.
Good to hear it's up and running. Is that the core engine you got from me?
No, that one is still in the basement, but I have scavenged a couple of parts (alternator tin) from it.
Someday I have dreams of building it into a 2056.
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