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Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 15 2019, 04:58 PM

Well, car is running like crap and compression is 98-110. Buddy mechanic says there isn't enough there to work with. So need to explore options. Was looking for a 6 awhile ago but that's just too expensive.

I have a 1971 1.7 block (car is 1970), may have bigger cylinders in it but don't know. What are the options if on a slightly restricted budget? I want big and more power but I know there's a tipping point on that.

I see new engines advertised here and there. https://www.scatvw.com/product/2056cc-long-block-71mm-stroke-x-96mm-bore/.
Contemplating, do I buy a new engine like this? (any others out there?) or rebuild what I have using a SCAT engine kit or piecing it together using various kits.

How big can I easily (budget) go? Currently don't know what I have so assumming a new cam, new crank, etc.

I plan on using the existing dual Weber 40IDFs and the MSDS headers/muffler.

Here's a pic so there's something visual here.

Posted by: Rand Jan 15 2019, 05:23 PM

Are you committed to staying with air cooled four?
I respect it if you do, but it's a pig - flack me here, but it just is so limited. Are you looking at other options? Budget?

Posted by: Rand Jan 15 2019, 05:25 PM

Just to clear the air, I love flat fours. Anemic and all.

Posted by: Rand Jan 15 2019, 05:26 PM

Please toss carbs and go FI to open a new world.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 15 2019, 05:35 PM

I have a fairly reasonable mechanic and access to reasonable machining. So a straight remove replace would be ideal. If I can rebuild and go big enough and powerful enough to be better than complete 2056 I think I might opt that way. How big can I safely go with a 1.7 block and heads....is it worth it or do I really need to get a 2.0 blck.

I really like the idea of keeping it aircooled; mainly for the classic character of the car and it's simplicity of operation and maintenance. I can say I have an "air cooled Porsche". I;ve seen some pretty damn fast Bugs.

Otherwise I'd drop a 350 in it and be done with it.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 15 2019, 05:36 PM

Budget I'm thinking $4-5k not including the drop and install.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 15 2019, 05:36 PM

Open to FI if it fits budget, etc.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 15 2019, 05:45 PM

Remember, All the blocks are (almost) exactly the same and can be made into any engine size. Jake Raby has often said the early 1.7's were the best blocks for monster engines since the metal mix was slightly better.

Posted by: BeatNavy Jan 15 2019, 06:10 PM

I'm in the process of building out the 1.7 that came with my '72 into a 2056. Looks like all-in I'm just over $5K in parts and services (e.g., machining, new turn-key 2.0 heads from Len Hoffman, etc.). I'm doing the assembly myself.

Yes, as Mark says, the 1.7 case is a great base with which to start. But to get to a proper 2056 you'll want need 2.0 heads, a new cam, a 2.0 crank, 2.0 connecting rods, the case checked for bore and register alignment, parts balancing, etc., etc.. As well as a whole bunch of other odds and ends. I did not skimp anywhere on the parts or services, so you should probably be able to do it for less than $5k with a little creativity and patience sourcing parts. The heads are the biggest single cost.

Converting to FI will require sourcing additional parts (~$500?), but IMO, it's worth it. I like FI.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 15 2019, 06:11 PM

For $5K, talk to McMark at Original Customs. He should be able to build you something in the 1911cc-2056cc range that will push you down the road more than adequately.

Almost any higher-powered engine swap will cost you more in the long run, so I think it is preferable to stay with the "anemic air-cooled flat four".

If you have the carbs already, keep them. You presumably know their ins and outs, their strengths and weaknesses. If you don't have any induction, consider an aftermarket EFI--but that will eat into your budget!!

--DD

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 15 2019, 06:21 PM

T4s do not have 'blocks' they have 'cases'. Two case halves technically.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 15 2019, 07:05 PM

Stock FI will only work with a stock cam or WEB #73 (may be other aftermarket cams)

Aftermarket FI even MS and scrounging DIY, etc the intake, will be well over $1000, more likely $2K. Soup to nuts systems with CB ITB's likely will be more in the $3-4K range. They run most cams but may have issue (MAP vac signal) with real lumpy cams.

Carbs are still the cheapest option with performance cams and can be made to run well. Carbs do get poorer gas mileage, if it's a daily driver i'd pony up for the FI, but a weekend toy I'd likely just live with the carbs.

Posted by: wndsrfr Jan 15 2019, 07:48 PM

Here's another one....to consider....https://fatperformance-rimco.com/collections/type-iv-motor-builds/products/2258cc-fat-performance-type-iv-long-block
You would likely need to work with the carbs and add a decent header type exhaust like Tangerine but would probably be pushing over 150Hp .....

Posted by: 914forme Jan 15 2019, 09:26 PM

Tangerine header and muffler will push to half or more of your rebuild budget.

I have run 1911s and they can be a blast, move you along nicely and are not that bad to build.

I would go 2270 if you can source parts well.

But then have you ever thought about ......
Subaru
2.5L none turbo, with an MT5 is the best step out there, and you can find the donor with everything you might need. except the mount, not hard, and the cable shifter pieces, which can be sourced from 818 part suppliers.

https://www.copart.com/lot/56594928

https://www.copart.com/lot/56895868

Both public can buy, both are pure sale, both run and drive. Just go in knowing your budget you want to spend. Bid, and you might get one. Subaru sixes are not much more than the 2.5L -4s. Every now and again complete swaps show up on here from people installing new combinations for more HP.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 15 2019, 09:30 PM

2056 to 2270 are the tipping point. Beyond that, the builder should really know Type IV motors because you can make more heat than HP and torque pretty easily.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 15 2019, 09:32 PM

Oh, and that’s a really nice looking car!

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 15 2019, 09:40 PM

Put new pistons 96's and rebuild the heads. 2k.
1911. Keep everything else the way it is.

Get a six....986 or 987 and drive it like you stole it..

Best of both worlds.

Posted by: ndfrigi Jan 15 2019, 10:24 PM

I second here for less budget to rebuild your engine to 1911 dual carb or djet. Removal of engine and install is not that hard. You can drop the engine by yourself. Then buy a 986 for rain and hot summer drive.

Posted by: BK911 Jan 16 2019, 09:31 AM

I'd do a leak down on current engine to determine why it's running poorly.
Then decide if I need a new engine.

Posted by: thelogo Jan 16 2019, 11:05 AM

I was at the same cross road as you were this time last year .

I got a plug and play big/4 engine (seller says it was a 12k build) from a member here for 5k
And it worked out great .

Much happier then a rebuild . And 3x as fast/powerful .


Had the 1.7 rebuilt while outta the car and considering going back to stock . Id let the big /4 go for 5500$(complete package ,plug and play)

and if you want to come see it run and ride in the car before buying , that would not be a problem.
Since im in monrovia let me know . Got the engine and had my fun with it , i think its got about 5k miles on it .

And if you are going to have yours rebuilt , make sure a warranty is provided ,because it takes major skill to just build a stock 1600 .
Let alone a type 4 . So dont go with a beginner engine builder on this one !

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 16 2019, 11:15 AM

So 96mm cylinders would equate to 1911? I assume rebuilding the heads dosen't add displacement. WHat is the jump to a 2056? bigger cylinders?

Am I buying new cylinders and pistons vs. boring out what I have? Are cam and crank the same?

I have carbs and intakes. Unless FI is under $500 I'll stay with the carbs. Would sell the carbs to fund the FI. Not familiar with FI too much.

I also have a performance 4 to 1 header from Marty and a https://spintechmufflers.com/ so exhaust and intake spoken for.

I have an '84 944 for civilized fun.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 16 2019, 11:18 AM

Exhaust view:

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 16 2019, 11:38 AM

4-5k? Double your budget. It's the 'while you're in there' factor that kills you. While you're in there, don't forget the new clutch package. Don't presume the flywheel is in spec. Your carbs that function with the 1.7 prob won't deliver the goods with a 2056.

Posted by: marksteinhilber Jan 16 2019, 11:45 AM

Everyone replied and wants you to spend more of your money than the $3500 2056 SCAT long block that you identified right up front. That is a smart and economic choice which you can always unload for at least a grand with some miles on it. Buy the 2056 and swap it out in a weekend and save your money. Drive the H*** out of it and decide if it isn't enough. You can then play with rebuilding your 1.7 and decide if you want to rebuild it to 2256 or larger by increasing both piston size and stroke. Since it isn't numbers matching and will simply be a tired long block, you can turn it in and buy the completed big bore motor, but it may need bigger carbs, etc. That might cost $5k to $10K from several builders including Fat Perf as mentioned. A real six is quite spendy for even for just a 2.4 or 2.7 and will cost at least $10K to $15K for the engine, rebuild, and the mounts, oil tank, exhaust, etc. Likely even more $$$....

Posted by: BeatNavy Jan 16 2019, 12:34 PM

96mm P&C plus the 1.7L crank get you to 1911. If you get a 2.0 Crank (71 mm), you get the 2056. So no, the crank is not the same vs. 1.7. No machining required to drop 96 mm cylinders in (although it might be desirable if the case is out of alignment -- but no boring required).

I mentioned $500 as the possible FI cost - what I should have said is you may be able to get a serviceable D-Jet setup for that. As Mark Henry said, anything modern is going to be a good bit more.

Lots of good ideas from people. It's up to you based on your budget, desire for power, desire to learn, and desire to get back on the road quickly. I agree with those that say the quickest, cheapest, and easiest route is to buy something that someone already built (either from a place like FAT or from someone who is now looking to go in a different direction from something they previously built/bought). The only real downside to that approach is you don't learn as much and you didn't build it yourself exactly the way you wanted. To some people that matters - others, not so much.

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 16 2019, 02:40 PM

Oh...I thought you have a 1.7 now. Now I re-read your post you say you don't know.

Tough to say with the 944 that you have....I've got two P cars as well. Busy enough with just upkeep of both to make another project for "more power".

If it were I....I'd just rebuild what you have...whatever that is and keep driving it.

Posted by: Alphaogre Jan 16 2019, 02:57 PM

I started with a '70 1.7 and built a short stroke 1911 motor with 96mm pistons/jugs, cam and Weber 44s. I love it, its fast revving little motor and so far has been tough too. I've flogged that poor thing at Streets in the summer and that thing just kept going.

If you keep the 1.7 heads you will need some machining, if you are in SoCal there are shops that build these motors really well for Baja, so they know reliability and power.

I'd say, with custom ordering a cam, the machining, and getting Keith Black Hypereutectic pistons plus the ancillary stuff it was around $2300... I had the carbs before as they came with the car when I got it...

Posted by: VaccaRabite Jan 17 2019, 10:33 AM

From your 1.7:
96mm P&C will get you to 1911.
96mm P&C and 2.0 Crank will get you to a 2056.
96mm P&C, stroker crank will get you to a 2270 (but you will need to replace about everything and probably spend a good bit more then your budget doing it).

My 2056 was built on a 1.7 case.

You will spend most of your budget on heads. And that's okay. I don't know that you can get your heads reworked for 2K any more (or even if you should), but you can buy new ones for about 4K.

My 2056 dynoed at close to 150HP (127 at the wheels). Its FUN. But also has more goodies on it. Just doing P&C and heads will get you to about 115, which will also be fun and quicker then your current 1.7 by a ton.

Posted by: BeatNavy Jan 17 2019, 11:37 AM

I purchased the AAP heads from HAM (Len Hoffman). All in with Len doing his magic, and ceramic coating the combustion chambers, well under $2k. Len's done a few sets of these. We don't have the data yet on how well these AAP heads will hold up over time, but...the price is attractive, and Len's initial impressions of them were not bad.

Posted by: bbrock Jan 17 2019, 11:42 AM

Just for a point of reference on this. I sent my 2.0 heads to Dave Bonbright last Spring for a basic rework. I supplied new springs and guides and he did a basic refresh with new SS valves for $800. That included extracting a couple broken exhaust studs which he said added up.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 18 2019, 12:04 PM

Thanks Guys, this is really great info.

So it looks like I will be deciding between a 1911 and a 2056. To verify, it sounds like at a base, both will require 96mm cans. And if I go to 2056 will I only need a 71mm crank and related connecting rods? So I'm getting 145cc just by changing crank and rods?

I see 96mm PCs from cast iron to alluminum, etc. Will I feel a difference with aluminum all other things remaining equal? I'd like to keep the car more on the bullet-proof side vs. touchy.

Who has the best deal around?

in either case, will I need to open up the heads to 96mm? Is it called bore?

Someone mentioned enlarging valves. Would this be only in the 2056 scenario or could do to a 1911. I anticipate that kind of headwork would be expensive. I am seeing a trend for basic headwork at around $700-800.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 18 2019, 12:21 PM

What is your budget. $5k, 7.5k, 10k?

Posted by: nditiz1 Jan 18 2019, 12:36 PM

So I feel there are two routes I would go in your shoes. Source the parts to make a 2056. If you shop right you can stay within budget ($4-5k)

As mentioned heads could be the greatest money item as they should be. Don't scimp here and the motor should last. Len's ran me ~$1450.

Option 2 which is way easier in my mind is have an already built 2056 from McMark. I think his packages fall within the 4-5 range for a 2056. These are Raby builds allowed to be be built by McMark. You can go FI or Carbs, your choice. I think his builds were Dynoing around 125hp. Drop it in and go.

Posted by: burton73 Jan 18 2019, 02:13 PM

From the LOGO:

"I got a plug and play big/4 engine (seller says it was a 12k build) from a member here for 5k
And it worked out great .

Much happier then a rebuild . And 3x as fast/powerful .


Had the 1.7 rebuilt while outta the car and considering going back to stock . Id let the big /4 go for 5500$(complete package ,plug and play)

and if you want to come see it run and ride in the car before buying , that would not be a problem.
Since im in monrovia let me know . Got the engine and had my fun with it , i think its got about 5k miles on it ."


This may be the best shot. Plug and play and you can sell your running Eng. to someone. and you can test it out.

Waiting for an engine can be a bitch.



Bob B

Posted by: Al Meredith Jan 18 2019, 05:04 PM

with the 2056 you not only get the added CCs but the longer stroke gives you a larger increase in torque. I love my 2056 . look for a 2.0 crank and rods.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 18 2019, 06:39 PM

Pistons, too! The wrist pin is at a different height in the 2.0 pistons than in the 1.7 or 1.8 ones. Has to do with the way they offset-ground the crank to get the extra 5mm of stroke.

There are slip-in 96mm cylinders that fit 1.7 heads. They are super thin, and are generally best avoided. The better idea is, if possible, to have the 1.7 heads milled to fit the 96es that are made for the 1.8 and 2.0 heads. The 1.7 heads have a 100mm "register" where the cylinders fit, which means less than 2mm wall thickness for a 96mm cylinder; the 1.8 and 2.0 heads have 105mm registers so there is a lot more space for the cylinder walls.

--DD

Posted by: wndsrfr Jan 18 2019, 09:17 PM

Jump on this one...if it includes induction and exhaust headers it's a gift! (No affiliation)

Posted by: tmessenger Jan 18 2019, 09:49 PM

I have Weber 40 IDF's on my Fat Performance 2056, they work really well with 32mm ventures. I can send you my jetting info if you go this route.

Tim

Posted by: 913B Jan 20 2019, 12:09 PM

My apologies in advance for the highjack.
Without bashing Scat too much. What is wrong with their 2056 motor for only $3600

Posted by: VaccaRabite Jan 24 2019, 09:38 AM

The issue is that you can't buy the parts for that much, so you know that they are cutting corners or using bargain basement parts from China. In all likelihood they are only adding larger P&C to an otherwise stock engine, maybe doing some cleanup. You would hope that at least they are checking bearings, and balancing parts - but you don't know and if they can build an engine without splitting the case that's profit in the bank for them. I can all but promise you the engine will either be using only cleaned up heads or the AMC heads with shit hardware.

Its a dice roll. For a car that only gets driven a few miles a year, or sits idle in a garage for years at a time before the engine even goes in... that engine may last 5 or 10 years. Or... roll those dice.

Zach

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 24 2019, 10:29 AM

Spoke to SCAT yesterday. Their 2056 for a 914 is $3900. 2.0 crank, 96mm cans. All new parts. Heads have standard valving. Rated 110hp with webers.

They can do a 2366 motor with 103mm cans and bigger valves for $4900. Rated 150 hp with Webers.

Both have a 12000/1 year warranty. No core.

If i buy all the pieces (crank, cam, cans, etc.) for a 2270 or 2366, how much would it be?...then just have my guy do the work on the existing motor.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 24 2019, 10:31 AM

Ask about machining. The deck, the galley plugs and aligne bore. Ask them about target compression ratio.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 24 2019, 10:40 AM

2056 with Raby 9900 cam/liters, Porsche swivel feet, HAM heads with 44x38 valves with combustion chambers coated, Djet FI. Gonna be in your $4000 budget and 120HP with tons of rpms....BTDT and still smiling. Oh, MPS has to be calibrated to your engine and you will get 25mpg if you don't drive around at WOT.

If you are in Seattle at all come drive mine.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Jan 24 2019, 12:33 PM

Raby 2056 for $4K? Show me I'll buy it today.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 24 2019, 12:35 PM

Parts, assembly required

Posted by: Rand Jan 24 2019, 12:48 PM

Exactly why most buyers are...

Posted by: ottox914 Jan 24 2019, 11:04 PM

Check links in my sig for details of my 2056 build. Very happy with the results. Went with modest valve sizes, and reasonable cam. Made 120 whp on the dyno with a giant tq curve. Gave up a little on top for more grunt all around. I'd build another one in a second.

Posted by: 7TPorsh Feb 1 2019, 11:11 AM

So did some more hunting and research for a buy vs. build. Decided to buy.

Ordered a high performance 2366cc Type 4/914 long block from SCAT VW; with the clutch kit - no core charge. Sourcing and building a motor like this is going to come out to the same cost or more and this has a warranty. Under $5k

Rated at 150-155 hp using Webers. 103mm cylinders, 71mm crank and enlarged valves. I think it's a geat deal. Buying a used running 2.0 engine for $3-4k doesn't seem the way to go for me. Why do a used 2056 with 100hp, when you can get another 50 hp for a little more.

Lots of builders on the board here but all start at minimum $5k and go up fast. SCAT has been around for a long time and I've known others with their engines so I feel pretty confident I'll do ok.

Any advice on modifying my Weber 40 IDFs and intake for the larger engine? Do people still have intakes polished like in the old muscle car days?

Engine drop tonight...anyone looking for a good 1.7 core long block in the LA area? Cheap Cheap!

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 1 2019, 12:29 PM

IMHO the 103's with iron cylinders are a bad choice, over 96mm you need nickies.
I'm an engine builder, most of them turn-key and a LN dealer, I won't build an engine with 103 iron cylinders, I would rather (and have) pass on the job.

Posted by: JOEPROPER Feb 1 2019, 12:39 PM

Posted by: thelogo Feb 1 2019, 05:30 PM

Air cooled motor assembly requires extremly skilled labor .thats all im saying

A

Posted by: thelogo Feb 1 2019, 05:32 PM

Im always in la canada and would love to pick up your ole 1.7 for cheap

Posted by: Mayne Feb 3 2019, 10:02 AM

I’m still interested in hearing more about this endeavor. One thought I have is if the larger stroker motor has more inherent risk, can SCAT build a 2056 but with better head work like they do on the 2366? It’s seems that with the right heads and cam people are getting 130hp from their 2056 motors. So maybe a bit less power but more durability.

Posted by: preach Feb 3 2019, 11:22 AM

Beautiful car.

What wheels are those, I love them.

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 3 2019, 12:55 PM

71mm crankshaft. Stock.

Posted by: 914werke Feb 3 2019, 02:28 PM

a 2366 isnt a stroker motor.

Posted by: Mayne Feb 3 2019, 04:29 PM

Right, okay I understand the extra displacement is coming from the 103 pistons and cylinders not from the crank, so I shouldn’t have called it a stroker. But I guess my point, or question, was if the OP had SCAT build him a 2056 but with better head work, could he be content with the power? And would it improve the durability of SCAT motor? Since it seems that the 103 iron cylinders that SCAT suggests are problematic (see below), maybe it would.

Posted by: falcor75 Feb 4 2019, 12:01 AM

"Cheap-Reliable-Fast, pick two." this 103 mm engine goes into the cheap and fast selection.

It will need more frequent rebuilds than a stroked engine with smaller diameter bores or nickies. What is "more frequent" well that all depends on the builder, the owner and the milage and its sortof the X-factor in this combo. One guy might think that tearing the engine apart every 24 months to check the bores for out of round etc is ok, another expects an engine that runs carefree for 10 years.

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 4 2019, 08:52 AM

Exactly, I expect my (street) engines to go 60-80K before they need the heads serviced and with proper maintenance 150 -200K being totally realistic.
I drive my cars, no garage queens here. Plus I build engines, which means I hate working on my own cars, no fork'in way I'm building an engine that I've got to tear into every 16-20K.

To me 103 iron cylinders are a terrible ROI, I'd pick a 2056 or 2270 over an 103 iron jug engine every time. Raby won't build an engine with iron cylinders bigger than 96mm as well. Scat, like a lot of discount/volume builders doesn't care because they don't want to lose a sale, they just want the Benjamins.

Posted by: mepstein Feb 4 2019, 09:36 AM

Their warranty-

All product warranties are limited to replacing or repairing any part or parts returned to SCAT, which upon SCAT’s inspection, are determined to be defective. Customer is responsible for paying freight on any products returned to SCAT. Warranty covers only the product itself, not labor, towing or other perceived damages. The warranty is expressly in lieu of all other warranties, express or implied.

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 4 2019, 09:45 AM

Upon inspection, UPON INSPECTION! Do I need to repeat that again?

Posted by: thelogo Feb 4 2019, 02:52 PM

Hi performance ,air cooled and warranty
Dont really belong in the same sentence imho


I really dont blame scat for that

Something tells me alot of aircooled engines have seized
From

Oil starvation , overheating , poor maintenance , street gasoline .
etc .


Not always a manufacturer defect

Posted by: 7TPorsh Feb 8 2019, 05:12 PM

Progress begins:
THE DROP!

Posted by: bandjoey Feb 8 2019, 10:58 PM

Eagerly watching the new Install

Posted by: thelogo Feb 8 2019, 11:54 PM

Was it numbers matching ?

Posted by: BK911 Feb 9 2019, 05:54 AM

Exciting times!!
Anxious to hear your thoughts on the new engine once installed and running.
And cool engine buggy.

Posted by: Mayne Feb 9 2019, 07:11 AM

Looking forward to hearing about the new engine! Should be awesome. Do you have plans for extra oil cooling?

Posted by: 7TPorsh Feb 11 2019, 01:46 PM

Going to work in an oil cooler somewhere.

Engine is not numbers matching. Case is 1971 1.7 . Once all the attachments are off I'll be looking at selling the old longblock. Possible with the intakes and webers.