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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Need Massive Help
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 9 2019, 05:32 PM
Ok so some of you may know I am doing the build of my life.
Put the case together for checking fit all went fine everything turned great. Disassembled and found this break in the case at the cam.
I have a massive amount of money in this case and it is opened for my 102s.
Anyone think of if and where I can get this repaired quickly?
Posted by: mepstein Aug 9 2019, 05:47 PM
Ask Ben if it’s something that he can do.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9892
Posted by: Chi-town Aug 9 2019, 06:11 PM
If you have it welded you're still going to have to take it back to the machine shop to have it checked/honed
Posted by: mb911 Aug 9 2019, 07:32 PM
It looks like aluminum so most any good TIG welder can do it. I leave for Nashville mid next week so if you wanted me to get at it I would need it Tuesday so I could ship back Wednesday
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 9 2019, 07:40 PM
It looks like aluminum so most any good TIG welder can do it. I leave for Nashville mid next week so if you wanted me to get at it I would need it Tuesday so I could ship back Wednesday
Bit can you machine it back to being true?
Posted by: thelogo Aug 9 2019, 10:35 PM
Ok so some of you may know I am doing the build of my life.
Put the case together for checking fit all went fine everything turned great. Disassembled and found this break in the case at the cam.
I have a massive amount of money in this case and it is opened for my 102s.
Anyone think of if and where I can get this repaired quickly?
Your scaring me
Maybe their is a suabru conversion in your future
(Where the long block only cost a few hundred bucks)
Posted by: Larmo63 Aug 9 2019, 10:42 PM
Just do a /6 and get it over with.
Posted by: 90quattrocoupe Aug 9 2019, 10:52 PM
Sorry to see this.
It can be welded up. Maybe a little extra material welded to the back side.
Then have the cam bore can be rebored.
Greg W.
Posted by: Valy Aug 10 2019, 01:41 AM
Ok so some of you may know I am doing the build of my life.
Put the case together for checking fit all went fine everything turned great. Disassembled and found this break in the case at the cam.
I have a massive amount of money in this case and it is opened for my 102s.
Anyone think of if and where I can get this repaired quickly?
It can be repaired but not cheap as you need to weld and rebore the bearing seat.
But,do I see a hairline crack between the cam bearing and the left pushrod tube hole?
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 10 2019, 02:54 AM
Slow down. Desperation and trying to do anything quickly at this point will only lead to more problems.
Anything can be fixed with enough time and money.
Question is do you have enough of both?
Old joke is you can have only two of the three.
Quick job
Affordable job
Quality job
If you want affordable repair and a quality repair it won't be quick.
Want a quick repair and don't want to spend money, it won't be quality work.
(In no way am I referring to Ben - he will do quality and will do affordable to help a member I'm sure. But the machine work isn't quick)
Think long and hard about trying to save this case. At a minimum you will need to line bore the cam. After welding the cam I'd closely remeasure the crank bores for deformation. Highly likely you would want to line bore the crank too in addition to the need to line bore the cam.
Line boring cases is not for the faint of heart. I know it is commonly done but honestly it is hard to do it right and maintain proper dimensional relationship between crank and cam bores. Even at the factory they dealt with this by select fitting cam gears to take up any dimensional variation between crank centerline and cam centerline.
Are you ready to consider rechecking the cylinder openings too after welding?
After all that - a new case looks better and better.
I am so sorry that you're in this situation. I can feel the pain and anguish, and I've been there before too!
Posted by: IronHillRestorations Aug 10 2019, 05:25 AM
Easiest thing to do is get a new/different case
Posted by: Mark Henry Aug 10 2019, 05:54 AM
Easiest thing to do is get a new/different case
Aww man...that really sucks
I have to agree with Perry, get another case, too high end of a build to risk on a shaky foundation.
I've never done this, but as far as having an expensive fuch up building an engine BTDT.
Posted by: HAM Inc Aug 10 2019, 06:45 AM
This is a terrible turn of events for Michael. I know how much this build means to him. He's been planning it for years and we've worked together on getting his heads prepped just right for the build.
I'm very sorry for you Michael. It looked like everything was coming together for you to be ready for Okteenerfest.
As for a repair, I would not be worried about this low amperage weld repair distorting the main saddles or the cylinder spigot. In the hands of a talented TIG welder the heat affected zone will not be that expansive. It is possible, however, that it could distort the adjacent lifter bore. It would probably need to be reamed, though that would remain to be seen. But one thing for sure is the cam saddle would have to be re-machined.
I've put a lot of thought into how to facilitate a quality repair of this case, Michael, but I keep coming up with the sad reality that it makes more sense to replace it and move on.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 10 2019, 08:12 AM
OMG! I am sorry to see that. We all know what it takes to put these cars together and I don't mean just the cash. If it were mine, I would source another case. Sorry to say that. I hope your machine shop will do you right on prepping another case. Good luck. 
Posted by: 76-914 Aug 10 2019, 09:46 AM
My condolences. Still trying to figure out how that happened, given your input. If it ain't one thing it's two. Hang in there.
Posted by: Spoke Aug 10 2019, 09:51 AM
What a bummer. How did this happen since it you were only fitting parts?
I have a cleaned 2L case if you're interested.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Aug 10 2019, 10:45 AM
I would repair it if it was mine.
Careful build-up with TIG, no use trying to weld the broken bit back on. Then hand grind/file/scrape until a custom made gauge pin barely fit through the bore - always being careful to not cut into the remaining original bore surface nearby.
I wouldn't use a reamer - too much chance of removing material from the other case half.
1 hour for the weld process and another 3-4 hours of hand work.
Tedious, but doable and worth it to recover the investment.
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Aug 10 2019, 11:00 AM
yes it can be welded and align bored, c&j welding HERE does beautiful work, then Goza machine shop has all of the align bore equipment, there is hope mike!
Ok so some of you may know I am doing the build of my life.
Put the case together for checking fit all went fine everything turned great. Disassembled and found this break in the case at the cam.
I have a massive amount of money in this case and it is opened for my 102s.
Anyone think of if and where I can get this repaired quickly?
Posted by: Porschef Aug 10 2019, 01:17 PM
I would repair it if it was mine.
Careful build-up with TIG, no use trying to weld the broken bit back on. Then hand grind/file/scrape until a custom made gauge pin barely fit through the bore - always being careful to not cut into the remaining original bore surface nearby.
I wouldn't use a reamer - too much chance of removing material from the other case half.
1 hour for the weld process and another 3-4 hours of hand work.
Tedious, but doable and worth it to recover the investment.
Wow
Sorry to see this, you must be heartbroken.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 10 2019, 02:02 PM
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
I see the back and forth on this thread and it is interesting for sure. I want to reiterate again how heartbreaking this is and I feel your pain.
I've been lucky enough to see things from many perspectives in my career.
I've been involved with a race program with corporate funding at the highest professional levels and I can say without a shadow of doubt that I've seen extremely expensive race parts scrapped for minor flaws that are seemingly insignificant. . . Just to be absolutely sure that we had the best chance of winning a race.
I've also been involved in SCCA club racing and have crewed on teams that were run on nothing more than a desire to be there. Each crew member funding their own way. I've seen wrecked cars and motors rebuilt overnight with little more than bailing wire and duct tape in order to compete the next day. I completely understand Chris' perspective that it could be saved. It absolutely could.
The toughest decision is to decide which end of that continuum you are going to be on.
None of us can decide that. It is a deeply personal question dependent on the end goal, time, money, and resources at hand.
I wish you the best in this tough decision. I am so sorry to see you go though this.
Posted by: Bills914-4 Aug 10 2019, 04:09 PM
Damn, so sorry Mike , you have alot of work in that case , timeserts, bore for 102's,
shuffle pins, ect, , I might try and save it , I would put a correct dia. (cam bearing o.d.)
bar in the cam bore , v-out the crack inside ,pull the piece back against the bar with
small clamp gently , Weld the outside crack let it cool ,remove clamp & bar , then
weld the v-grooved crack , once it's cooled dremel down the weld , check it by
sliding the Bar back towards the welded cam saddle seeing if the bar stops , using
it as a gage , clearance it until it slides in smoothly , then assemble the case with
cam+bearings only , torque it down little by little checking for cam binding by tuning
the cam , then mill file the parting surface to match , just another idea Bill D.
ps you can hold the bar in the cam saddles with a couple of straps going thru
the cylinder bores and around a wood 2x2 ,
Posted by: flyer86d Aug 10 2019, 04:55 PM
I would repair it if it was mine.
Careful build-up with TIG, no use trying to weld the broken bit back on. Then hand grind/file/scrape until a custom made gauge pin barely fit through the bore - always being careful to not cut into the remaining original bore surface nearby.
I wouldn't use a reamer - too much chance of removing material from the other case half.
1 hour for the weld process and another 3-4 hours of hand work.
Tedious, but doable and worth it to recover the investment.
That is the way to go. It is not the end of the world.
Charlie
Posted by: Rand Aug 10 2019, 04:58 PM
Sometimes we expect too much of an old thing. Please don't dump any huge money after bad. Are you insistent on TIV? If so, trust Chris.
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 10 2019, 05:51 PM
All good advice. But I think I am going to see if I can get another case opened for the 102s and uild from there.
I am also going to have this case fixed and build a backup engine.
Crap I hope someone can complete the case quickly.
George I may be calling you to get some recommendations.
After looking at things for a long time I think that when the crank broke it sent a lot of shock to the cam and stressed this rea. New bearings and can’t just stressed the area and it failed.
Really have to pull one out of May ass to make it by Okteenerfest.
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 10 2019, 05:52 PM
I would repair it if it was mine.
Careful build-up with TIG, no use trying to weld the broken bit back on. Then hand grind/file/scrape until a custom made gauge pin barely fit through the bore - always being careful to not cut into the remaining original bore surface nearby.
I wouldn't use a reamer - too much chance of removing material from the other case half.
1 hour for the weld process and another 3-4 hours of hand work.
Tedious, but doable and worth it to recover the investment.
Chris I would love to hear a recommendation on who could do this.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 10 2019, 06:48 PM
Mike - I know you really really want to get your engine done in time for Octeenerfest but I would look at plan B. Building an engine on a short deadline is never a good idea, especially when it's a custom build. Take your time, enjoy the build and enjoy Octeenerfest.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 10 2019, 08:45 PM
a replacement case is the least expensive component at this point. A failure could be catastrophic. Would it be in the back of your mind every time you drove the car?
Posted by: porschetub Aug 11 2019, 12:36 AM
Now that is sh#t luck after all you have been through,as an engineer I wouldn't even go for a repair on that case its a real gamble to get it 100%,well at least 914 cases are cheap but that helps little considering the machining work that has gone into that one.
I haven't done a T4 build for a while but currently doing one and TBO its not what you call cheap,have better luck mate
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 11 2019, 08:17 AM
Any suggestions on who could bore out the case to 102 quickly?
Posted by: Mark Henry Aug 11 2019, 08:41 AM
You don't need to timesert the case headstuds threads, I've never had an issue. but you should get a thread reforming tap to run through them before installing the ARP studs. My case isn't shuffle pined as well.
Only issue I've had is leaking ARP case through bolts, I recommend a good sealant under the washers like threebond (Yamabond4) or loctite 5900.
As for making the show, give it a go but there will be other shows. Last thing you want is a fuch up because you rushed through things.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Aug 11 2019, 09:20 AM
I would repair it if it was mine.
Careful build-up with TIG, no use trying to weld the broken bit back on. Then hand grind/file/scrape until a custom made gauge pin barely fit through the bore - always being careful to not cut into the remaining original bore surface nearby.
I wouldn't use a reamer - too much chance of removing material from the other case half.
1 hour for the weld process and another 3-4 hours of hand work.
Tedious, but doable and worth it to recover the investment.
Chris I would love to hear a recommendation on who could do this.
Metal craftsmen with the required tools and skills aren't too common nowadays I suppose.
Someone who restores antique cars maybe? An old machine shop that also does welding?
Someone who likes to work with his hands and has plenty of patience.
If its going to be a back-up and you don't mind waiting a few months, you can send it to me.
Posted by: bdstone914 Aug 11 2019, 09:32 AM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15438
Mike, I would contact George at European Motorworks in Hawthorne CA.
He had over 300 cases there. He has been building Type Iv motors for decades and is reasonable. Could probably get you a case of send all the long block guts to him and have him build it. He did a 2056cc long block for me years ago for $300 assemble including balancing. Motor still pulling 6500rpms on a tracked car.
Address: 13224 Prairie Ave, Hawthorne, CA 90250
Hours: Closed ⋅ Opens 9AM Monday
Phone: (310) 644-8038
Bruce
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 11 2019, 06:42 PM
I would repair it if it was mine.
Careful build-up with TIG, no use trying to weld the broken bit back on. Then hand grind/file/scrape until a custom made gauge pin barely fit through the bore - always being careful to not cut into the remaining original bore surface nearby.
I wouldn't use a reamer - too much chance of removing material from the other case half.
1 hour for the weld process and another 3-4 hours of hand work.
Tedious, but doable and worth it to recover the investment.
Chris I would love to hear a recommendation on who could do this.
Metal craftsmen with the required tools and skills aren't too common nowadays I suppose.
Someone who restores antique cars maybe? An old machine shop that also does welding?
Someone who likes to work with his hands and has plenty of patience.
If its going to be a back-up and you don't mind waiting a few months, you can send it to me.
That’s an easy choice. I will send it to you!
Posted by: Larmo63 Aug 11 2019, 10:45 PM
I second the Jorge recommendation if you need it quickly.
He does fast turnaround.
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 12 2019, 08:28 AM
Ok so now I am trying to find someone that can open up my case for the 102's this week.
Looks like Len can do it! 
Packing it up and sending to him!
Posted by: Betty Aug 12 2019, 09:12 PM
Ok so now I am trying to find someone that can open up my case for the 102's this week.
Looks like Len can do it!
Packing it up and sending to him!
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Aug 13 2019, 08:02 AM
Ok so now I am trying to find someone that can open up my case for the 102's this week.
Looks like Len can do it!
Packing it up and sending to him!
So is Len fixing it or are you sending him a different case to start over with?
Something else, I wouldn't rush an engine build. When I put a 78mm crank in my case I must have assembled and disassembled ten times to check all clearances. Taking your time will pay off in the end.
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 13 2019, 08:04 AM
Ok so now I am trying to find someone that can open up my case for the 102's this week.
Looks like Len can do it!
Packing it up and sending to him!
So is Len fixing it or are you sending him a different case to start over with?
Something else, I wouldn't rush an engine build. When I put a 78mm crank in my case I must have assembled and disassembled ten times to check all clearances. Taking your time will pay off in the end.
Starting over on new case. Will likely send to Chris at some point to look at fixing.
Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Aug 13 2019, 08:24 AM
Ok so now I am trying to find someone that can open up my case for the 102's this week.
Looks like Len can do it!
Packing it up and sending to him!
So is Len fixing it or are you sending him a different case to start over with?
Something else, I wouldn't rush an engine build. When I put a 78mm crank in my case I must have assembled and disassembled ten times to check all clearances. Taking your time will pay off in the end.
Starting over on new case. Will likely send to Chris at some point to look at fixing.
What crank are you using?
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 13 2019, 09:35 AM
Ok so now I am trying to find someone that can open up my case for the 102's this week.
Looks like Len can do it!
Packing it up and sending to him!
So is Len fixing it or are you sending him a different case to start over with?
Something else, I wouldn't rush an engine build. When I put a 78mm crank in my case I must have assembled and disassembled ten times to check all clearances. Taking your time will pay off in the end.
Starting over on new case. Will likely send to Chris at some point to look at fixing.
What crank are you using?
78mm from Type 4 store. The assembly and disassembly is exactly what I did on the first go. There were very few clearance issues.
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 13 2019, 05:18 PM
Ok so it just won’t end! Shop called today and informed me they made mistake on case and bored it too big 
So now I am out of cases and only hope seems to be Jorge at European Motor Works.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 13 2019, 05:43 PM
Mike - I have a good case that I can send you (or your machine shop) for free but I’m headed to Maine tomorrow and won’t be back until Wed. Sorry about the timing but it’s yours if you want it. Mark
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 13 2019, 07:05 PM
Mike - I have a good case that I can send you (or your machine shop) for free but I’m headed to Maine tomorrow and won’t be back until Wed. Sorry about the timing but it’s yours if you want it. Mark
That offer is so meaningful! But Jorge at European Motor works seems to have one ready to ship tomorrow.
Posted by: mb911 Aug 14 2019, 04:33 AM
Mike all I can say is wow.. I hope you have no more hurdles and everything goes smoothly from now on to completion..
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 14 2019, 01:25 PM
Well I have to give Jorge at European Motor Works a big thumbs up!
New case opened for 102s, lined bored, and the oil galley plugs drill and tapped is on the way!
Posted by: theer Aug 14 2019, 01:35 PM
Great news! Congrats.
Mike - I have a good case that I can send you (or your machine shop) for free but I’m headed to Maine tomorrow and won’t be back until Wed. Sorry about the timing but it’s yours if you want it. Mark
Mark - you da bomb! Stop by Dover, MA on your way up to or back from Maine, you can get a sneak peak at Grey Matter.
Tom
Posted by: 914dave Aug 14 2019, 04:30 PM
Mike.
Sorry to see your troubles. Seems like the 914 Gods are testing your resolve. Have you tried any sacrifices appeasement rituals?? Good luck with the assembly
Dave
Posted by: thelogo Aug 14 2019, 05:36 PM
Well I have to give Jorge at European Motor Works a big thumbs up!
New case opened for 102s, lined bored, and the oil galley plugs drill and tapped is on the way!
Same case as mine
Its gonna be a monster
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 14 2019, 07:25 PM
Mike.
Sorry to see your troubles. Seems like the 914 Gods are testing your resolve. Have you tried any sacrifices appeasement rituals?? Good luck with the assembly
Dave
Don't know my build is worth the Gods attention but someone is definitely trying to piss me off!
The support I get here is what makes me want to keep pushing forward instead of quitting.
Posted by: db9146 Aug 23 2019, 08:18 PM
Mike, any update? I hope you are too busy making all kinds of progress on the new engine to reply....
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 24 2019, 09:29 AM
Mike, any update? I hope you are too busy making all kinds of progress on the new engine to reply....
Actually true! Up 0400 and started building. Just our case together for first test fit. How to have PCs installed by dinner.
Going really slow just to be sure.
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