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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Major Cooling System issues
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 20 2019, 09:29 AM
Need the Brain Trust help again - big time.
Up to now, nothing I've faced in getting this sweet 14 running and back on the road has been major or disheartening. Lots of new stuff, running pretty good but not perfect, etc. That just changed.
Ever since getting the engine running a few months ago, I was concerned that it took a long time to warm up. My first 1 hour + drive was last week - and temps got too high for my comfort - about 1/4" from red line. So I've been drilling down on that issue.
For one thing, car sat in a barn (new one) for 12 years - so I wondered about mice nests above the cylinders from the day I bought the car. Yesterday with my scope I found, yes, they are there between the cylinders - at least between 2 & 4. I think I can get them out with a small vacuum through the spark plug holes in the top tins.....we'll see.
Due to total ignorance of 914's and VW engines, I know nothing of the air ducting system, but in the learning process, and thanks to anderssj , I find the whole flap/door system and its controls are missing. Gone.
So I can only assume that the PO removed them due to problems with overheating. Stupid move for sure. I have to correct that. I understand that move itself could cause overheating.
I dread pulling the carbs, intake manifolds, distributor and other stuff to get the top tins off.
Plan is to see if I can get the mouse stuff off the cylinders with a small vacuum, make sure all is clean with my scope. If successful, I'll then drive the car and see if it still gets too hot. If I can't get the debris removed with vacuum, I know I have to pull the top tins.
But I am told that not having the flap system itself could cause overheating. So I have to get that system installed and working.
Yes, I know the many potential causes of overheating like improper timing, plugs, etc. Timing good, plugs good - new. Valves adjusted by dealer about 1,500 miles ago.
Got a lot of work ahead - all when I wanted to have the car ready for the big PCA 9/14 914 Vintage Drive.
Any help and advice is of course, as always, appreciated.
GN
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 20 2019, 10:14 AM
Did you scope the oil cooler to ensure that it was not caked over with mouse stuff or crusty oil?
I agree on the absence of oil flaps contributing to overheating. if you examine the photo you will not even though it looks like the oil cooler is covered, the extension of the flap in to the air stream forces a huge amount of air on to the oil cooler.
Without it the air follows the path of least resistance and goes to the cylinders and very little to the cooler.
Not a good situation for effective cooling!
Posted by: Ansbacher Aug 20 2019, 10:24 AM
You sound a bit like a doctor that needs to perform surgery but doesn’t want to get blood on his hands. Get in there and get dirty! Removing the carbs, intakes, and distributor is simple and probably should be done anyway for evaluation.
Ansbacher
Posted by: Porschef Aug 20 2019, 10:27 AM
You may want to consider dropping the engine. Heck, if you haven’t done it yet, nows a good time. Allows you to clean it up nice and get your flaps and a thermostat installed. Plus a bunch of whileyou’reintheres...
It’s not that hard to do.
Good luck
Posted by: cuddy_k Aug 20 2019, 10:40 AM
Trying to remove the tins with the engine in the car is back breaking and not fun. Save yourself the frustration and pull the engine. Video how-to in my link below...
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 20 2019, 10:59 AM
You may want to consider dropping the engine. Heck, if you haven’t done it yet, nows a good time. Allows you to clean it up nice and get your flaps and a thermostat installed. Plus a bunch of whileyou’reintheres...
It’s not that hard to do.
Good luck
I second that. It is not hard. Bring the tranz out too. Just a good weekend job. I mean the whole thing.... remove, clean, install flaps, clean some more, re-install, the rest of Sunday can be spent driving.
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 20 2019, 11:00 AM
Did you scope the oil cooler to ensure that it was not caked over with mouse stuff or crusty oil?
I agree on the absence of oil flaps contributing to overheating. if you examine the photo you will not even though it looks like the oil cooler is covered, the extension of the flap in to the air stream forces a huge amount of air on to the oil cooler.
Without it the air follows the path of least resistance and goes to the cylinders and very little to the cooler.
Not a good situation for effective cooling!
Great pix Mike. I can't quite read the link. where did you get them?
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 20 2019, 11:03 AM
Did you scope the oil cooler to ensure that it was not caked over with mouse stuff or crusty oil?
I agree on the absence of oil flaps contributing to overheating. if you examine the photo you will not even though it looks like the oil cooler is covered, the extension of the flap in to the air stream forces a huge amount of air on to the oil cooler.
Without it the air follows the path of least resistance and goes to the cylinders and very little to the cooler.
Not a good situation for effective cooling!
Great pix Mike. I can't quite read the link. where did you get them?
http://www.volksbolts.com/
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2019, 11:27 AM
It’s not that hard to do.
Drop the engine and take your time doing this right.
It's not that complicated to do:
http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_engdrop1.php
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 20 2019, 11:53 AM
Remove the carbs as a unit not to include the intakes. 16 nuts, fuel supply hose, the throttle cable and lift it off. I find it easier to drop the engine with the carbs off. You don't have to raise the car as high. Put paper towels in the intakes to keep crap out. This way preserves your current linkage setup. Remove the dist cap and turn the engine over until the rotor lines up with the notch in the dist body. Note the spark plug wires orientation. There is always the chance the distributor is installed 180* out. After pulling the dist do not rotate the engine.
Posted by: malcolm2 Aug 20 2019, 12:14 PM
https://www.ratwell.com/technical/Thermostats.html
I know you said you were studying up..... If you have not read this, please do.
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Aug 20 2019, 12:24 PM
you MUST reinstall the flaps!!!!! good time to clean out the fins and the oil cooler, and make sure that the rest of the sheet metal is attached
Need the Brain Trust help again - big time.
Up to now, nothing I've faced in getting this sweet 14 running and back on the road has been major or disheartening. Lots of new stuff, running pretty good but not perfect, etc. That just changed.
Ever since getting the engine running a few months ago, I was concerned that it took a long time to warm up. My first 1 hour + drive was last week - and temps got too high for my comfort - about 1/4" from red line. So I've been drilling down on that issue.
For one thing, car sat in a barn (new one) for 12 years - so I wondered about mice nests above the cylinders from the day I bought the car. Yesterday with my scope I found, yes, they are there between the cylinders - at least between 2 & 4. I think I can get them out with a small vacuum through the spark plug holes in the top tins.....we'll see.
Due to total ignorance of 914's and VW engines, I know nothing of the air ducting system, but in the learning process, and thanks to anderssj , I find the whole flap/door system and its controls are missing. Gone.
So I can only assume that the PO removed them due to problems with overheating. Stupid move for sure. I have to correct that. I understand that move itself could cause overheating.
I dread pulling the carbs, intake manifolds, distributor and other stuff to get the top tins off.
Plan is to see if I can get the mouse stuff off the cylinders with a small vacuum, make sure all is clean with my scope. If successful, I'll then drive the car and see if it still gets too hot. If I can't get the debris removed with vacuum, I know I have to pull the top tins.
But I am told that not having the flap system itself could cause overheating. So I have to get that system installed and working.
Yes, I know the many potential causes of overheating like improper timing, plugs, etc. Timing good, plugs good - new. Valves adjusted by dealer about 1,500 miles ago.
Got a lot of work ahead - all when I wanted to have the car ready for the big PCA 9/14 914 Vintage Drive.
Any help and advice is of course, as always, appreciated.
GN
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 20 2019, 04:21 PM
I sort of wonder how this whole pull the flaps myth got started. 
My original engine suffered the same fate with PO pulling flaps. That engine really suffered because of it. 
Guess the Germans were believed to have been putting unnecessary parts on cars despite 30 or more years of experience with air cooled engines by the time the 1st 914 hit the road.
Posted by: bretth Aug 20 2019, 04:31 PM
I sort of wonder how this whole pull the flaps myth got started.
My original engine suffered the same fate with PO pulling flaps. That engine really suffered because of it.
Guess the Germans were believed to have been putting unnecessary parts on cars despite 30 or more years of experience with air cooled engines by the time the 1st 914 hit the road.
I wonder if it is a type 1 cooling flap myth that came over to the type 4. Always heard about type 1 guys removing flaps for supposedly more air flow.
Posted by: porschetub Aug 20 2019, 04:34 PM
Do it once and do it right,good chance to check everything,as mentioned the cooler will be dirty ,clean it inside and out,give the engine a good clean @ the same time that helps with cooling,replace all missing parts also,good luck.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 20 2019, 06:46 PM
This is how it starts. 'While you're in there...'.
You're going to have to pull the intake manifolds to get the upper tin off.
Posted by: Spoke Aug 20 2019, 07:20 PM
You need to drop the engine. You have enough stuff going on that trying to work on it with the engine in it's little cocoon is an absolute nightmare. Once you drop the engine you'll understand why everyone is saying to do it.
The worst part about dropping the engine is thinking about it. Once out, everything is at your fingertips. You can clean the critter nests out, degrease, repair/replace the cooling tins, repaint/powdercoat the tins. Also doing a valve adjustment on the engine out is a breeze.
I've dropped the engine twice in my 914 and both times by myself. The biggest pain in the ass as far as I'm concerned are the CV joints. When disconnecting them from the transmission now the actual CVs are open and that grease can get on everything.
If any of the heating tubes under the car are missing this would be a good time to install them. Are all the tubes in place? Do you have heat exchangers?
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 20 2019, 08:02 PM
Drop the motor. It's easy.
Once its out, then I would suggest a new oil cooler and seals, plus reinstall the flaps.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 20 2019, 08:31 PM
Guys all - I hear you, loud and clear.
Engine will not only be dropped and flaps added before it is put back, it will be rebuilt. Y'all misread me - no fear of dropping engine - have lift & everything I need to do it.
No compression in 3 & 4 - 60 psi. Was 90/100 4,000 miles ago when checked at local dealer. Only 100 & 102 in 1 and 2....same as dealer had.
Today I pulled out a cubic foot of mouse nest on the right on top of 3 & 4. Will post pic tomorrow since I have to upload it first to a pic website. Left side clean and open, right side now clean and open. Will try to scope oil cooler tomorrow, but right now it's a moot point.
Huge decision on engine rebuild though.....for my Weber 44's, increasing bore & stroke, adding cam? or for the original D-jet?
I'll address that on my other thread.
Thanks again everyone for all the help and great advice.
GN
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 21 2019, 04:26 AM
No compression in 3 & 4 - 60 psi. Was 90/100 4,000 miles ago when checked at local dealer. Only 100 & 102 in 1 and 2....same as dealer had.
Today I pulled out a cubic foot of mouse nest on the right on top of 3 & 4. Will post pic tomorrow since I have to upload it first to a pic website. Left side clean and open, right side now clean and open. Will try to scope oil cooler tomorrow, but right now it's a moot point.
GN
Oh Dude! So sorry to hear about cyl #3 & 4. Likely the overheating mouse nest lead to catastrophic sealing issue on that side.
Really makes me mad that the dealer wouldn't take a peek in there. Especially in an age of $100 bore scopes. Why is everyone now a days just trying to get by on the bare minimum?
I recently tore down GA000099 and yup, a huge mouse next in #1/2 and the oil cooler is nearly full restriction due to grease & cottonwood fluff.
Rebuilds aren't hard - just take your time.
With respect to the CV's getting grease everywhere . . . . put a 1 gallon Ziplock freezer bag (or better - two for durability) over them immediately upon disconnect. Tape it closed. Grease contamination and transfer to everything else is solved or greatly minimized.
Do not pull the rear axle stub and roll the vehicle or the wheel bearings will be destroyed. Bungee works to keep axles from flopping around if you need to roll with CV's in place.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 21 2019, 05:33 AM
Superhawk -
Was MY BAD, not the dealer who checked the compression in 2005 and 4k miles ago. Don't know of car setting at all when he checked it.
Car sat in barn for 12 years - I thought of the possibility of a nest, but thought I'd just be careful watching temp.
In many drives of 30 min or less, car never even reached operating temp. Over a dozen drives. So I figured no problem. No nest, right? I had no idea flaps had been removed preventing normal warm up.
So then last Friday I took the car for its first long drive. No problem for first hour or so. Then got on interstate, and watched it go high - but never reach the red......If it touched the red, I was pulling over and shutting down. And I was too far from home to just pull over and let it cool since it wasn't in the red.
So it was my doing the damage from not understanding the system. MY BAD!
But 90/100 isn't good compression anyway, so a rebuild has always been a known possibility.
GN
Posted by: falcor75 Aug 21 2019, 05:39 AM
When you've pulled the driveshafts from the gearbox just pull a plastic bag or cheap rubber glove over the cv joint and ziptie it in place untill you are ready to reinstall.
I hate cv joint grease !
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 21 2019, 07:05 AM
Superhawk -
Was MY BAD, not the dealer who checked the compression in 2005 and 4k miles ago. Don't know of car setting at all when he checked it.
Car sat in barn for 12 years - I thought of the possibility of a nest, but thought I'd just be careful watching temp.
In many drives of 30 min or less, car never even reached operating temp. Over a dozen drives. So I figured no problem. No nest, right? I had no idea flaps had been removed preventing normal warm up.
So then last Friday I took the car for its first long drive. No problem for first hour or so. Then got on interstate, and watched it go high - but never reach the red......If it touched the red, I was pulling over and shutting down. And I was too far from home to just pull over and let it cool since it wasn't in the red.
So it was my doing the damage from not understanding the system. MY BAD!
But 90/100 isn't good compression anyway, so a rebuild has always been a known possibility.
GN
As a note, it generally thought that pulling over and immediately shutting down a hot engine is bad. Sometime you have no choice but if you can pull over and sit for a few minutes with the engine at 2,000 it will greatly reduce eh potential for damage and help dissipate the built up heat.
The Temp gauge is fine but you really need to add a cylinder head temperature (CHT) sensor. the CHT will give you advance warning that you are heating up help predict lean operation of the engine.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 21 2019, 07:19 AM
My bad - jumping to a conclusion. 
I read that as if the dealer had recently checked the compression recently.
Still sorry to hear the tale of woe.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 21 2019, 12:30 PM
Great tip! I use plastic bags for similar containment....just makes sense.
Thanks!
GN
When you've pulled the driveshafts from the gearbox just pull a plastic bag or cheap rubber glove over the cv joint and ziptie it in place untill you are ready to reinstall.
I hate cv joint grease !
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 21 2019, 07:01 PM
Update:
Engine was cold yesterday when I took compression readings. Warmed it up today, and they are a tiny bit better - explain why the engine doesn't run too bad. 3 was 85 and 4 was 90.
So a top-end rebuild is still ahead........open to suggestions for the best package for installing the D-jet and best suggestions for keeping the Weber 44's and existing bottom end......
GN
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 21 2019, 07:03 PM
SH -
You didn't jump to conclusions. In desiring to be brief, I left out a lot of details. You didn't have enough to work with.
GN
My bad - jumping to a conclusion.
I read that as if the dealer had recently checked the compression recently.
Still sorry to hear the tale of woe.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 22 2019, 01:42 PM
Ran engine today in 93* ambient until gauge was just over halfway, maybe 5/8 over position, read oil temp with infrared scanner at oil filter & crankcase: 252*
Would like to get my scope into area above oil cooler, but cannot see anyway to do it except pull front right tin - can I do this w/o pulling distributor? Any other way to get my scope in there?
TIA,
GN
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 23 2019, 12:26 PM
Still wondering if there is a way to see the top of the oil cooler with my scope - it's about 3/8" diameter on 24" flex shaft.
Sure like to know if there is debris blocking the airflow.
TIA,
GN
Posted by: jcd914 Aug 23 2019, 12:32 PM
Still wondering if there is a way to see the top of the oil cooler with my scope - it's about 3/8" diameter on 24" flex shaft.
Sure like to know if there is debris blocking the airflow.
TIA,
GN
Have you tried going in through the #4 spark plug hole in the sheet-metal?
It seems like a logical entry point.
Jim
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 23 2019, 01:14 PM
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. You know the cooling flaps, bellow and wire need to be installed. You'll see if the oil cooler needs to be addressed when you get the tin off. If you scope it and it's fouled you're right back to square one. Trying to squirt brake cleaner on the cooler as it sits is a waste of time and money. The stench will be massive after a couple of cans.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 23 2019, 06:29 PM
Rhodyguy -
You are right on.
So, can I install the flaps, bellow and wire from up top? Do I just take off the front tins? Bellow/thermostat goes below, right? Having never seen one, I don't know - Haynes manual is clear as mud.
Where can I find all I need for the flaps, etc.? All the parts?
So I am focused on putting the flaps in next. But I need all the help I can get - I am the greenest of green on all things 914. And I don't have another one nearby to check out....that I know of.
Appreciate all the help.......
GN
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. You know the cooling flaps, bellow and wire need to be installed. You'll see if the oil cooler needs to be addressed when you get the tin off. If you scope it and it's fouled you're right back to square one. Trying to squirt brake cleaner on the cooler as it sits is a waste of time and money. The stench will be massive after a couple of cans.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 24 2019, 05:07 AM
While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.
Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?
Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....
GN
PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".
Posted by: Porschef Aug 24 2019, 07:16 AM
There’s bugging a previous owner with a multitude of questions, and then there’s asking if he might have the parts that were removed that have caused your issues. 
See if he has them, or anything else that you could use. Might save you some scrambling about to locate what you need
Good luck
Posted by: Garland Aug 24 2019, 07:49 AM
Here’s a shot with the shroud and heater tins removed. 
Posted by: Rand Aug 24 2019, 07:52 AM
While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.
Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?
Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....
GN
PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".
PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.
Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.
Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 24 2019, 08:20 AM
WHY the P.O. removed the system is not relevant to the discussion.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 24 2019, 09:34 AM
Great idea, thank you, but "Been there, done that" ,
He made it very clear last time I talked and asked about missing parts, "I gave you ALL THE PARTS I HAVE. I don't have any more!" Yes, I got a nasty fuel tank the dealer had totally redone in 2005 by someone who didn't know what they were doing, and I had it done again by a pro with lifetime warranty - and a large box of too many parts to list.
BTW, I bought the car 2 years ago too.
BUT, I will ask him why he removed the flaps......
GN
There’s bugging a previous owner with a multitude of questions, and then there’s asking if he might have the parts that were removed that have caused your issues.
See if he has them, or anything else that you could use. Might save you some scrambling about to locate what you need
Good luck
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 24 2019, 09:35 AM
While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.
Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?
Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....
GN
PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".
PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.
Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.
Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).
Having money to race 911's is no indication of mechanical aptitude. I've built and crewed on many race cars for a rich owners that had absolutely no mechanical knowledge.
There is no point in asking why they were removed. Asking the uninformed for their rationale will not change the fact that these engines rely on the flaps to direct air to the oil cooler. Just buy a set of flaps. In my case, I found a front shroud complete with flaps for about $50.00 on eBay. Members here will help you find a set of flaps.
The flaps are an absolute MUST for getting air directed across the oil cooler. Over the years numerous well intended people removed the flaps thinking it helps when it is in fact the exact opposite. A lack of flaps will induce slow warm up, excess water condensation in the oil, and ultimately overheating once the engine is under load.
Forget the term air cooled - these engines are heavily OIL Cooled.
Easiest path to success is to bite the bullet, drop the engine, clear any mouse nest debris and ensure the oil cooler is clear.
Please look at my build thread (PAGE 6) in my signature if you want to see can happen to the internals of an engine run without flaps.
Type 4's are not complex engines but they do demand proper treatment. Removal of the flaps is a clear indication that the previous owner had absolutely no idea of what he was doing.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 24 2019, 09:45 AM
Loud and clear, SH.
Do I HAVE to drop the engine to put the flaps in?
TIA,
GN
While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.
Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?
Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....
GN
PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".
PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.
Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.
Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).
Having money to race 911's is no indication of mechanical aptitude. I've built and crewed on many a race cars for a rich owners that had absolutely no mechanical knowledge.
There is no point in asking why they were removed. Asking the uninformed for their rationale will not change the fact that these engines rely on the flaps to direct air to the oil cooler. Just buy a set of flaps. In my case, I found a front shroud complete with flaps for about $50.00 on eBay. Members here will help you find a set of flaps.
The flaps are an absolute MUST for getting air directed across the oil cooler. Over the years numerous well intended people removed the flaps thinking it helps when it is in fact the exact opposite. A lack of flaps will induce slow warm up, excess water condensation in the oil, and ultimately overheating once the engine is under load.
Forget the term air cooled - these engines are heavily OIL Cooled.
Easiest path to success is to bite the bullet, drop the engine, clear any mouse nest debris and ensure the oil cooler is clear.
Please look at my build thread (PAGE 6) in my signature if you want to see can happen to the internals of an engine run without flaps.
Type 4's are not complex engines but they do demand proper treatment. Removal of the flaps is a clear indication that the previous owner had absolutely no idea of what he was doing.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 24 2019, 09:51 AM
FYI - dropping the engine is no problem in and of itself.
What is the problem is that my lift bay is in demand for other work and vehicles and if it is going to be tied up for any period of time, I need to plan that well in advance.
Dropping the engine will tie up my lift bay for some time, as I am involved in 100 other things besides working on my 914......actually, working on it is something I do in my spare time......and because of that I don't know how long it will take me to do the work with the flaps.
I also don't want to drop the engine twice in a short period of time. It needs a top-end rebuild and I need to plan that out. I'm still not certain of which way I want to go on that.
Hopes this helps to explain some of my comments......the problem and issue is timing, not technicals.......
GN
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 24 2019, 09:53 AM
On a 914 it is much easier to just drop the engine and then do work.
I constantly see people trying to do work with the engine in the car and often it can be done. BUT, it is so much harder.
Only takes about 90 minutes to drop the engine, trans, muffler assembly and then everything is right out in the open. First time will take you longer but honestly once you've done it once, it is so easy after that.
In the case of the flaps, you'll need to pull the front fan shroud castings - I honestly don't believe that can be done with the engine in. If it could be done, it will be so much harder that it makes the discussion irrelevant.
If you have the luxury of having $$, buy the Tangerine engine lift adapter for your floor jack. I think $129. Makes life so easy.
Having said that, the bulk of the the time I owned my 1st 914 I was either in the military as a poor E2/E3 or in college with even less money.
I restored my 1st car with nothing more than a K-mart socket set, vice grips, a few screwdrivers, a hammer, and a 1 1/2 ton K-mart floor jack. Dropped the engine many times with nothing more than than what is listed above.
I promise dropping the engine isn't that hard and it will save you so much time in the long run. This is true of nearly every mid-engine car whether its a Fiero or a Ferrari.
Posted by: Rand Aug 24 2019, 09:56 AM
FYI - dropping the engine is no problem in and of itself.
What is the problem is that my lift bay is in demand for other work and vehicles and if it is going to be tied up for any period of time, I need to plan that well in advance.
Dropping the engine will tie up my lift bay for some time, as I am involved in 100 other things besides working on my 914......actually, working on it is something I do in my spare time......and because of that I don't know how long it will take me to do the work with the flaps.
I also don't want to drop the engine twice in a short period of time. It needs a top-end rebuild and I need to plan that out. I'm still not certain of which way I want to go on that.
Hopes this helps to explain some of my comments......the problem and issue is timing, not technicals.......
GN
Wait. You have access to all this. and it... sounds just like a former troll. Just do some work.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 24 2019, 09:59 AM
Drop engine - then roll car off host to make room for what ever other projects you have. I understand.
Heck I've never had a hoist that is a luxury I can't yet afford. I've dropped 914 engines in the grass with just a sheet of plywood to allow the floor jack to roll back 5 foot.
Don't worry about dropping twice. After the 1st time it is so simple you'll laugh.
DO NOT pull the rear hubs - just disconnect the CV's and bungee them and/or roll carefully. Rolling without a rear stub will lead to rear bearing damage.
I actually have two spare rear hub stubs - if you would rather pull the whole rear axle CV assembly inclusive of the rear stubs, I'd be happy to either sell you my spare pair if you want a spare pair or I'll even to loan them to you for duration of your project if you just want to borrow then return.
Posted by: Rand Aug 24 2019, 10:05 AM
Love your style. That's how most of us get it done.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 24 2019, 10:14 AM
Unless the CVs are stuck/bonded to the rear of the hubs there's no reason to pull the whole axle/hub assem.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 24 2019, 10:16 AM
Pulling the rear stub carries some risk in itself of accidentally separating the bearing races, losing balls, or contamination of the bearings.
Some folks just seem to prefer to pull the whole axle inclusive of CV's and stubs.
Posted by: cuddy_k Aug 24 2019, 10:35 AM
I suggest you try to do this with the engine in the car. After about 30 minutes of bending, struggling, and coming to the realization that it’s not really feasible/doable, you’ll resolve yourself to dropping the engine and doing the job, rather than hoping there’s another way. There’s an amazing wealth of knowledge on this site, but it serves no good at all if you don’t utilize it 
The link in my signature has a video on how to drop the engine. You’ll see that it’s pretty easy, especially if you have the tangerine jack plate (which you’ll see in the video). If you PM, I’m happy to answer any other questions you have.
Just get to it! It’ll be done in less time than it took to build this thread. If you have all the parts, the drop/fix/reinstall shouldn’t take more than an afternoon....so your bay can go back to other things.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 24 2019, 10:38 AM
I suggest you try to do this with the engine in the car. After about 30 minutes of bending, struggling, and coming to the realization that it’s not really feasible/doable, you’ll resolve yourself to dropping the engine and doing the job, rather than hoping there’s another way. There’s an amazing wealth of knowledge on this site, but it serves no good at all if you don’t utilize it
The link in my signature has a video on how to drop the engine. You’ll see that it’s pretty easy, especially if you have the tangerine jack plate (which you’ll see in the video). If you PM, I’m happy to answer any other questions you have.
Just get to it! It’ll be done in less time than it took to build this thread.
You forgot the 30 minutes to put all the loose stuff back in place that will now likely preclude dropping the engine cleanly!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21449
Not laughing at you -- its just that this subject of whether to drop or not to drop comes up so often its funny on it's own merit.
Posted by: cuddy_k Aug 24 2019, 10:52 AM
we Joke because we care. We’ve all been there, done that and are just trying to help you benefit from our pain.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 24 2019, 12:26 PM
we Joke because we care. We’ve all been there, done that and are just trying to help you benefit from our pain.^^^
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 24 2019, 12:56 PM
If you're set on not dropping the engine, Step 1 is remove the engine cover. Step 2, remove the battery. Step 3, spray a good penatrent on every exposed fastener you can see. Now raise the car. Bear in mind you're going to be bent over the raised car with your head in the engine compartment contorted in the weirdest positions you can imagine. How long could you hold that pose? Double or triple time on reassembly. You'll figure out about the drop 1/2 way thru the ordeal. When a few tin screws shear off, screw heads all chewed up or are just plain stuck you'll be fuming.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 24 2019, 02:53 PM
Engine + trans drop is less than an hour.
You don't need a rack for it either, just two jackstands and a dolly.
Trust me (and the rest posting here) dropping the engine/trans is the way to go.
Everything else will make you hate your life.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 24 2019, 08:36 PM
Guys -
Got the message loud and clear.
"Any smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others....."
I prefer to be the latter.
I have a 10k lb. lift and a Harbor Freight motorcycle lift and was planning on dropping the engine onto it using blocking to support each corner. Can't I do that instead of buying the Tangerine plate?
What adds to the validity of what you all are saying is the availability of videos to show how it's done. I love these. I believe in apprenticeship learning - saves tons of mistakes.
Videos provide part 2 of this great Chinese proverb:
"I hear - I forget. I see - I remember. I do - I understand."
And we all know doing something the 2nd time takes half as long as the first. And the 3rd time half as long as the 2nd.........
Guys - I'm 74, and been wrenching since I was 15. And still love it. I hear you all.
GN
PS: Yes, I'm spoiled with a dream shop and garage. But it's been a long time coming.
Always worked on cars on gravel until I was 37; didn't own a home and even have a garage until I was 55 and hand-built my log home in the woods; designed & build my dream garage - it HAD to have a lift! - with my own hands (also a General and Electrical Contractor) when I was 68. So there is a real sense in which I am not spoiled. But I am blessed by God.
we Joke because we care. We’ve all been there, done that and are just trying to help you benefit from our pain.Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 24 2019, 09:55 PM
In the case of the flaps, you'll need to pull the front fan shroud castings - I honestly don't believe that can be done with the engine in. If it could be done, it will be so much harder that it makes the discussion irrelevant.
Yes, it can be done. I have done it. But it is a b1tch putting the fan shroud back on the front of the motor without screwing up the cooling flaps.
It is much easier to drop the motor and trans out of the car. If you have a lift, it is even easier. Just unhook all the stuff on top, raise it up, unhook everything but the motor mounts on the bottom. Lower the car down and place jack stands under each end of the crossbar, and one under the rear of the trans. Then unbolt the mounts, and lift the car off the engine and trans.
Putting it back is just as easy. If you moved the motor, use a couple of plumb bobs to align the crossbar with the mounts in the frame, then carefully lower the car onto the motor. Watch the CV joints and axles, they have a tendency to hang up on the trans when installing the motor.
Good luck.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 24 2019, 10:03 PM
Cleaning the engine compartment is quick and easy with the engine out. There's a few other this and that too.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 25 2019, 07:15 AM
Clay -
Thanks - I'm sold. Think the motorcycle lift table is best tho - puts the engine at a perfect working height, and if need be, allows me to move it - tho I won't plan on doing that due to alignment issues.
Next question guys: Why should I drop the engine and NOT do a top-end rebuild, with new C&P's, maybe renewed heads?
Thinking of the 2056 upgrade - would love advice on best sources for this.......or should I start a new thread for this?
GN
Yes, it can be done. I have done it. But it is a b1tch putting the fan shroud back on the front of the motor without screwing up the cooling flaps.
It is much easier to drop the motor and trans out of the car. If you have a lift, it is even easier. Just unhook all the stuff on top, raise it up, unhook everything but the motor mounts on the bottom. Lower the car down and place jack stands under each end of the crossbar, and one under the rear of the trans. Then unbolt the mounts, and lift the car off the engine and trans.
Putting it back is just as easy. If you moved the motor, use a couple of plumb bobs to align the crossbar with the mounts in the frame, then carefully lower the car onto the motor. Watch the CV joints and axles, they have a tendency to hang up on the trans when installing the motor.
Good luck.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 25 2019, 11:35 AM
The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......
Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....
How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......
GN
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 25 2019, 11:45 AM
The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......
Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....
How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......
GN
You may find out when you pull the tin. Wouldn't be surprised to find a mouse house or clogged oil cooler.
Also who's to say he was paying attention and didn't overheat it or the previously mentioned girlfriend? Maybe he only drove it a few miles to Dairy Queen for an ice cream only once a year. Who really knows?
That is why I make it a personal principle to tear down every engine as if it was a core.
Heck I got my original engine (the one without flaps) running before I tore the car apart but seriously had no idea of how much rust and muck was sitting in the sump. No idea that the crank was already 0.010" undersize and scored. It would have run for a while but would have eventually destroyed itself at the most inopportune time.
These cars are now 40 - 50 years old and should be assessed as such . . . probably worn out.
Had I pulled the engine apart and found it to be pristine, no big deal. Fresh gaskets and it would have gone back together. Ah . . . if only that had been the case.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 25 2019, 11:54 AM
SH -
Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.
Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....
GN
The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......
Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....
How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......
GN
You may find out when you pull the tin. Wouldn't be surprised to find a mouse house or clogged oil cooler.
Also who's to say he was paying attention and didn't overheat it or the previously mentioned girlfriend? Maybe he only drove it a few miles to Dairy Queen for an ice cream only once a year. Who really knows?
That is why I make it a personal principle to tear down every engine as if it was a core.
Heck I got my original engine (the one without flaps) running before I tore the car apart but seriously had no idea of how much rust and muck was sitting in the sump. No idea that the crank was already 0.010" undersize and scored. It would have run for a while but would have eventually destroyed itself at the most inopportune time.
These cars are now 40 - 50 years old and should be assessed as such . . . probably worn out.
Had I pulled the engine apart and found it to be pristine, no big deal. Fresh gaskets and it would have gone back together. Ah . . . if only that had been the case.
Posted by: Al Meredith Aug 25 2019, 12:07 PM
Here in the South (Atlanta) I have built several High Performance TY4 engines, I always install the Flaps. They are getting hard to find so I have done some stock engines with a riveted in hand made oil cooler flap. Never a problem , but you MUST direct air over the oil cooler. The only way I know how to do this is to copy a stock flapper door and reproduce the shape and rivet it to the stock #4 tin . AL
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 25 2019, 01:17 PM
Al - totally understand - flaps ON THE WAY from another member - so I'm good!
Thanks!
GN
Here in the South (Atlanta) I have built several High Performance TY4 engines, I always install the Flaps. They are getting hard to find so I have done some stock engines with a riveted in hand made oil cooler flap. Never a problem , but you MUST direct air over the oil cooler. The only way I know how to do this is to copy a stock flapper door and reproduce the shape and rivet it to the stock #4 tin . AL
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 25 2019, 01:32 PM
SH -
Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.
Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....
Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.
Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.
With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.
Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.
I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.
Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.
I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 25 2019, 07:24 PM
SH -
Only makes sense, I agree - especially since I did not know about the cam load.
I do know this: Original Owner's Manual shows car was delivered on 1/27/76, and has dealer service stamped showing 13,971 miles on 1/25/1977 in Buena Park, CA.
I also have Porsche dealer invoice showing 56,496 on 8/31/2001. Another showing 58,537 on 11/29/2002.
That's 44,500 miles in 25+ years, or only 1,700 miles/year. Extremely low UNLESS the car sat for a number of years. Which is also not unusual for these cars.
Car indicated 60,600 on 9/22/17 when I purchased it and had been sitting in one place in my friends barn for 12 years. It sat in my garage for almost 2 years. 14 total recent years, zero miles. So between '01 and '06 it was driven 4k miles in the last full year it was driven.
Wear on the car is commensurate with a 60k car. Interior is very nice, so are pedals.
But as you say, who knows? Best to check all when engine is out.
If cam is worn, I'm going with a cam for the Weber 44's.
GN
SH -
Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.
Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....
Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.
Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.
With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.
Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.
I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.
Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.
I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.
Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 25 2019, 08:07 PM
Here in the South (Atlanta) I have built several High Performance TY4 engines, I always install the Flaps. They are getting hard to find so I have done some stock engines with a riveted in hand made oil cooler flap. Never a problem , but you MUST direct air over the oil cooler. The only way I know how to do this is to copy a stock flapper door and reproduce the shape and rivet it to the stock #4 tin . AL
Al,
I have lots of sets of the flaps.
Clay
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 26 2019, 06:04 AM
SH -
Only makes sense, I agree - especially since I did not know about the cam load.
I do know this: Original Owner's Manual shows car was delivered on 1/27/76, and has dealer service stamped showing 13,971 miles on 1/25/1977 in Buena Park, CA.
I also have Porsche dealer invoice showing 56,496 on 8/31/2001. Another showing 58,537 on 11/29/2002.
That's 44,500 miles in 25+ years, or only 1,700 miles/year. Extremely low UNLESS the car sat for a number of years. Which is also not unusual for these cars.
Car indicated 60,600 on 9/22/17 when I purchased it and had been sitting in one place in my friends barn for 12 years. It sat in my garage for almost 2 years. 14 total recent years, zero miles. So between '01 and '06 it was driven 4k miles in the last full year it was driven.
Wear on the car is commensurate with a 60k car. Interior is very nice, so are pedals.
But as you say, who knows? Best to check all when engine is out.
If cam is worn, I'm going with a cam for the Weber 44's.
GN
SH -
Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.
Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....
Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.
Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.
With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.
Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.
I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.
Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.
I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.
You may indeed be correct that it is a true 60K car then. That is awesome. So many have zero records - your're well ahead in that regard.
when you do the top end, pull the lifters out - you can probably use a borescope to get a good look at the cam lobes. If they are hollowed out at the center where the lifter paths overlap, you'll need a cam. If not, you could use that to justify not splitting the case.
One thing to keep in mind - cars of this era were not designed to life cycles of 150K miles like they are today. Probably more like an optimistic 100K at best.
If you plan to drive daily (or hard)- know that you may already be 6/10 worn.
In theory, a plain bearing has a near infinite life as long as oil is kept clean and constant oil pressure is maintained. The main problem is that you have no flaps, and have already experienced overheating yourself. This greatly thinned oil viscosity and dropped oil pressure and will have taken some unknown % bearing life away. It is always a bit hard to know if oil was kept clean but again with some records you at least have some insight on early life maintenance.
The main thing I'm suspicious of is why someone would bother to get in there and ONLY remove the flaps. The fact that it has Webers says someones been mucking around somewhere in that 60K miles for some reason. Maybe it was running lean and/or hot and some shade tree pulled FI for Webers and though pulling the flaps would help. Not being overly critical here - I myself pulled FI on my original car for Webers (young and dumb, didn't understand FI yet).
In my opinion, it is all the unknowns that would make me split the case regardless. Then I KNOW what I have . . . but I'm OCD that way.
I'll post up a picture later tonight of GA000099 stock cam and the lobe wear so that you know what you're looking for. Get in touch with Clay -- per previous post he has flaps.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 26 2019, 07:11 AM
I have the full and true story on the FI-Weber conversion.....confirmed by the local Porsche dealer and I have the original dealer record of the conversion.
ECU was bad and a working one could not be found. Owner who raced 911's did his research and purchased a complete Weber 44 kit with proper jetting for the IV 2.0. He had the dealer do the conversion - so it was done right at 58,537 miles on 11/29/2002.
They completely re-tuned the car for the Weber's and stated in the service sheet that it was running well. The bill was large!
The head of the service dept. has been there for eons, and remembers every detail about this car being serviced there - as they don't service many 914's. I was amazed at all he told me about the car. He also said, "It's a nice one...." Remembered low compression in #3, and occasional problems with synchronizer in 3rd gear!
As I've been a customer for many years (on my 2nd Cayman), he was very happy to tell me all about my car.
How cool is that?
GN
SH -
Only makes sense, I agree - especially since I did not know about the cam load.
I do know this: Original Owner's Manual shows car was delivered on 1/27/76, and has dealer service stamped showing 13,971 miles on 1/25/1977 in Buena Park, CA.
I also have Porsche dealer invoice showing 56,496 on 8/31/2001. Another showing 58,537 on 11/29/2002.
That's 44,500 miles in 25+ years, or only 1,700 miles/year. Extremely low UNLESS the car sat for a number of years. Which is also not unusual for these cars.
Car indicated 60,600 on 9/22/17 when I purchased it and had been sitting in one place in my friends barn for 12 years. It sat in my garage for almost 2 years. 14 total recent years, zero miles. So between '01 and '06 it was driven 4k miles in the last full year it was driven.
Wear on the car is commensurate with a 60k car. Interior is very nice, so are pedals.
But as you say, who knows? Best to check all when engine is out.
If cam is worn, I'm going with a cam for the Weber 44's.
GN
SH -
Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.
Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....
Call me a doubting Thomas but I think very few of these cars have accurate mileage unless they can be backed up with records from new.
Trans cables are easily disconnected. Speedo/ODO is an easy swap. Think about it. Cars 40 years old with an average of only 1.5K miles per year? Not likely. I know some are low mileage originals out there, but, most aren't. Mine had ODO at 60K but shows every sign of that not being correct.
With respect to opening the case, any consequences of "while I'm in there" syndrome of swapping to 102mm pistons, stroker cranks, etc. are on you.
Granted a fresh set of bearings (crank, rods, and cam) and a Gasket kit will set you back $250, but, if everything else checks out there is no harm done in putting it back together with nothing more than fresh gaskets if it really is OK and low mileage.
I'm currently rebuilding GA000099 and it indeed a low mileage engine with no real wear on the pistons, or cylinders, but the ring end gaps are out of spec and showing some wear.
Even at 60K you're likely to find that you need a cam. The design of these cams is such that a single lobe is shared with two cylinders. That essentially leads to a doubling of wear at the center of the lobe. Found the stock cam in GA000099 and as stated, the lobes are showing wear even though the P&C do not.
I'd just suggest that you evaluate as you go and adapt accordingly.
You may indeed be correct that it is a true 60K car then. That is awesome. So many have zero records - your're well ahead in that regard.
when you do the top end, pull the lifters out - you can probably use a borescope to get a good look at the cam lobes. If they are hollowed out at the center where the lifter paths overlap, you'll need a cam. If not, you could use that to justify not splitting the case.
One thing to keep in mind - cars of this era were not designed to life cycles of 150K miles like they are today. Probably more like an optimistic 100K at best.
If you plan to drive daily (or hard)- know that you may already be 6/10 worn.
In theory, a plain bearing has a near infinite life as long as oil is kept clean and constant oil pressure is maintained. The main problem is that you have no flaps, and have already experienced overheating yourself. This greatly thinned oil viscosity and dropped oil pressure and will have taken some unknown % bearing life away. It is always a bit hard to know if oil was kept clean but again with some records you at least have some insight on early life maintenance.
The main thing I'm suspicious of is why someone would bother to get in there and ONLY remove the flaps. The fact that it has Webers says someones been mucking around somewhere in that 60K miles for some reason. Maybe it was running lean and/or hot and some shade tree pulled FI for Webers and though pulling the flaps would help. Not being overly critical here - I myself pulled FI on my original car for Webers (young and dumb, didn't understand FI yet).
In my opinion, it is all the unknowns that would make me split the case regardless. Then I KNOW what I have . . . but I'm OCD that way.
I'll post up a picture later tonight of GA000099 stock cam and the lobe wear so that you know what you're looking for. Get in touch with Clay -- per previous post he has flaps.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 26 2019, 07:20 AM
Totally remember all cars were good for 100k mis. in those days. Designed obsolescence.
My first new car was a '68 Bullitt Mustang (Sept. '68 - '69's had just been released - 1 month before the movie came out - an incredible story as I was 23 with NO money!) and I put 100k mis. on it in 3 years and even tho I maintained it well - everything was shot then.
I'll split the engine and put in a good cam for the Webers - only makes sense. Check all bearings.
Should I start a new thread asking for guidance on where to get C's & P's and cam?
GN
Posted by: wndsrfr Aug 26 2019, 08:09 AM
Totally remember all cars were good for 100k mis. in those days. Designed obsolescence.
My first new car was a '68 Bullitt Mustang (Sept. '68 - '69's had just been released - 1 month before the movie came out - an incredible story as I was 23 with NO money!) and I put 100k mis. on it in 3 years and even tho I maintained it well - everything was shot then.
I'll split the engine and put in a good cam for the Webers - only makes sense. Check all bearings.
Should I start a new thread asking for guidance on where to get C's & P's and cam?
GN
Consider getting 96mm pistons and have your cylinders bored to fit them...JE forged if you're going to hammer on it...
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 26 2019, 09:18 AM
John -
Like here:
https://aapistons.com/collections/piston-sets/products/96x71mm-flat-top-piston-set
Great idea - how to increase compression ratio? Don't see different sets......with smaller compression height......
GN
Consider getting 96mm pistons and have your cylinders bored to fit them...JE forged if you're going to hammer on it...
[/quote]
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 26 2019, 09:26 AM
John -
Does the bore for the 96mm pistons give you 2056cc?
Thanks,
GN
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 26 2019, 09:40 AM
Perfect. I have the scope - will do this for sure, and that will determine what I do.
If cam looks good, and I can get another 30k out of engine before going inside, I'll just do the top end.
Plan is coming together. My winter project.
Thanks.......
GN
"when you do the top end, pull the lifters out - you can probably use a borescope to get a good look at the cam lobes. If they are hollowed out at the center where the lifter paths overlap, you'll need a cam. If not, you could use that to justify not splitting the case. "
Posted by: ChrisFoley Aug 26 2019, 11:02 AM
I just pulled the tin off an engine that appeared to have no cooling flaps. The thermostat and crossbar were removed. I tried to pull the shroud off before removing the cylinder tin but it hung up on the passenger side. I was able to look inside and could see that the oil cooler flap was in place, riveted down at the back. That's the warm position, which directs some of the air to the cooler. This engine runs quite hot so I was expecting no flap at all.
Owner has documented 250F in 90+ degree weather climbing hills at 80 mph.
Next step is to install one of my remote oil cooler kits so he can run his AC without overheating the engine.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 26 2019, 02:37 PM
How was the vane on dr side positioned?
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 26 2019, 07:07 PM
Chris -
THANK YOU FOR THIS POST! VERY educational.
Anyone else ever seen this mod before?
So, you were attempting to access the oil cooler and install the flaps and thermostat without removing the engine? And you are a professional 914 mechanic, right?
But you could not get the front shroud off.....did you get the right front tin off?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand where I've never been before.....and the Haynes manual is as clear as mud.......
Is it your opinion that the riveted flap was not far enough in the "hot" position, and that's why the engine is overheating?
What is a proper engine temp on a 90 degree day climbing hills at 80mph?????? 230? 235? I'm sure it is above 220........
I assume your remote cooler, as all I've seen so far, is located up front below the bumper.....correct?
I think that's enough questions for one post......
GN
I just pulled the tin off an engine that appeared to have no cooling flaps. The thermostat and crossbar were removed. I tried to pull the shroud off before removing the cylinder tin but it hung up on the passenger side. I was able to look inside and could see that the oil cooler flap was in place, riveted down at the back. That's the warm position, which directs some of the air to the cooler. This engine runs quite hot so I was expecting no flap at all.
Owner has documented 250F in 90+ degree weather climbing hills at 80 mph.
Next step is to install one of my remote oil cooler kits so he can run his AC without overheating the engine.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Aug 26 2019, 08:30 PM
No, I have the engine out of the car. I wouldn't attempt what I am doing with the engine installed.
I thought I could get the shroud out of the way without pulling the cylinder tin off first. However a previous owner riveted the flap in place while the top tin was off. There's no driver side flap since it's attached to the missing crossbar.
Once I got the right cylinder tin out of the way everything went smoothly.
I'm not re-installing any stock parts. I'm modifying the oil cooling system by replacing the factory oil cooler with my custom made thermostat that has ports for a remote cooler. The cooler is mounted below the rear trunk and has a fan to pull air up through the cooler. A block-off plate replaces the flap on the passenger side so no air can escape from where the stock cooler used to be.
I think oil temps of 250 are not uncommon for a stock 2L being driven hard. I would prefer to see it peak no higher than 225.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 27 2019, 05:41 AM
Chris -
Thank you. I've never seen your oil cooler idea, only the front cooler ones. But I have wondered myself why a rear mounted cooler with a fan could not be used. Sounds like a great design, especially since you aren't adding your cooler to the stock one but replacing it.
I'd love to hear your reasons for not using both - I'm sure they are solid and sound.
Have you patented your design? I'd love to do the same on mine - but you are way to far from me to do my work.
Agree on the oil temp.....you confirmed my thoughts on the stock design......
Glad I'm running synthetic.....have been on all my vehicles since 1977....never an engine failure since then, and we drive all out vehicles until they are worth almost nothing....and die of other major mechanical issues.
GN
No, I have the engine out of the car. I wouldn't attempt what I am doing with the engine installed.
I thought I could get the shroud out of the way without pulling the cylinder tin off first. However a previous owner riveted the flap in place while the top tin was off. There's no driver side flap since it's attached to the missing crossbar.
Once I got the right cylinder tin out of the way everything went smoothly.
I'm not re-installing any stock parts. I'm modifying the oil cooling system by replacing the factory oil cooler with my custom made thermostat that has ports for a remote cooler. The cooler is mounted below the rear trunk and has a fan to pull air up through the cooler. A block-off plate replaces the flap on the passenger side so no air can escape from where the stock cooler used to be.
I think oil temps of 250 are not uncommon for a stock 2L being driven hard. I would prefer to see it peak no higher than 225.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Aug 27 2019, 07:24 AM
Chris -
Thank you. I've never seen your oil cooler idea, only the front cooler ones. But I have wondered myself why a rear mounted cooler with a fan could not be used. Sounds like a great design, especially since you aren't adding your cooler to the stock one but replacing it.
I'd love to hear your reasons for not using both - I'm sure they are solid and sound.
Have you patented your design? I'd love to do the same on mine - but you are way to far from me to do my work.
Agree on the oil temp.....you confirmed my thoughts on the stock design......
Glad I'm running synthetic.....have been on all my vehicles since 1977....never an engine failure since then, and we drive all out vehicles until they are worth almost nothing....and die of other major mechanical issues.
GN
I think the stock cooler is terribly inefficient where it is right up against the block essentially, and the stock oil circuitry has oil flow thru the cooler based on pressure not temperature. High oil pressure = no oil moving in the cooler.
Nothing patentable in my design, just good use of available components combined with some custom made parts to complete the assembly. The most significant of the custom made parts is the oil thermostat which mounts on the engine where the cooler used to be. That ensures the oil cooler has little to no flow until the oil is 180F.
My goal with the kit is to create something that works well and most any shade tree mechanic can install. I'm just learning about the complexities of installing this in a car with stock heat exchangers right now. My early efforts were aimed at modified engines running race headers.
Be careful with synthetic oil. A high ZDDP content is essential for minimizing lifter/cam wear.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 27 2019, 07:23 PM
Thanks, Chris.
"Be careful with synthetic oil. A high ZDDP content is essential for minimizing lifter/cam wear."
And here I've preached this to owners of old Triumph (and other makes) motorcycles for years - but had not applied it to the '76 VW engine. Of course!
Back to the Brad Penn I run in my old Triumph's........partial synthetic......plenty of ZDDP....
"High oil pressure = no oil moving in the cooler..." TOTALLY do not understand this one - the higher the pressure, the more the oil should flow in volume!
Does your system have a fail-safe mode if your thermostat regulating the flow fails?
Thank,
GN
Chris -
Thank you. I've never seen your oil cooler idea, only the front cooler ones. But I have wondered myself why a rear mounted cooler with a fan could not be used. Sounds like a great design, especially since you aren't adding your cooler to the stock one but replacing it.
I'd love to hear your reasons for not using both - I'm sure they are solid and sound.
Have you patented your design? I'd love to do the same on mine - but you are way to far from me to do my work.
Agree on the oil temp.....you confirmed my thoughts on the stock design......
Glad I'm running synthetic.....have been on all my vehicles since 1977....never an engine failure since then, and we drive all out vehicles until they are worth almost nothing....and die of other major mechanical issues.
GN
I think the stock cooler is terribly inefficient where it is right up against the block essentially, and the stock oil circuitry has oil flow thru the cooler based on pressure not temperature. High oil pressure = no oil moving in the cooler.
Nothing patentable in my design, just good use of available components combined with some custom made parts to complete the assembly. The most significant of the custom made parts is the oil thermostat which mounts on the engine where the cooler used to be. That ensures the oil cooler has little to no flow until the oil is 180F.
My goal with the kit is to create something that works well and most any shade tree mechanic can install. I'm just learning about the complexities of installing this in a car with stock heat exchangers right now. My early efforts were aimed at modified engines running race headers.
Be careful with synthetic oil. A high ZDDP content is essential for minimizing lifter/cam wear.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Aug 28 2019, 05:18 AM
...
"High oil pressure = no oil moving in the cooler..." TOTALLY do not understand this one - the higher the pressure, the more the oil should flow in volume!
Does your system have a fail-safe mode if your thermostat regulating the flow fails?
The stock pressure relief valve in a Type 4 engine also incorporates a cooler bypass circuit.
When pressure is high most of the oil goes around the cooler, not through it.
Its essentially a thermostat to help with warm up, but also allows very high oil temperatures during hard driving. I make a pressure valve insert which defeats the bypass, forcing the oil thru the cooler at all times.
My thermostat is internally identical to the remote thermostats that are commonly used in external cooler plumbing. There is no fail-safe. These thermostats use oil temperature, not pressure, to open the valve. When the oil is hot it all goes thru the cooler.
Posted by: Gatornapper Aug 28 2019, 09:40 AM
Cool! Great design...
[/quote]
The stock pressure relief valve in a Type 4 engine also incorporates a cooler bypass circuit.
When pressure is high most of the oil goes around the cooler, not through it.
Its essentially a thermostat to help with warm up, but also allows very high oil temperatures during hard driving. I make a pressure valve insert which defeats the bypass, forcing the oil thru the cooler at all times.
My thermostat is internally identical to the remote thermostats that are commonly used in external cooler plumbing. There is no fail-safe. These thermostats use oil temperature, not pressure, to open the valve. When the oil is hot it all goes thru the cooler.
[/quote]
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 28 2019, 10:38 AM
I’ll defer to Chris on this for racing application. Racing is very different than street use.
Keep in mind, hot oil is usually not high pressure oil. Oil thins, bearing clearances open up, etc.
Forcing all oil though cooler especially cold, high pressure oil risks blowing out the simple rubber grommets that seal the cooler to the case.
Forgive me for saying this but you seem determined to re-engineer the system. A properly built, and tuned stock (or 2056) motor running a thermostat and cooling flaps should not be overheating, end of story.
Delaying warm up of an engine can be nearly as bad as the overheating with respect to engine longevity.
Posted by: ChrisFoley Aug 28 2019, 11:11 AM
Keep in mind, hot oil is usually not high pressure oil. Oil thins, bearing clearances open up, etc.
I think the stock pressure relief is bypassing the cooler at less than 40psi.
Forcing all oil though cooler especially cold, high pressure oil risks blowing out the simple rubber grommets that seal the cooler to the case.
That's false. The cooler sees full oil pressure at all times. It just gets little to no flow under some conditions.
A properly built, and tuned stock (or 2056) motor running a thermostat and cooling flaps should not be overheating, end of story.
That depends on what you mean by "overheating". I believe the designers had no problem with a stock 2L engine reaching 250F or higher oil temp. A 2056 is going to get even hotter. I know I don't want my oil that hot.
Remember, the engine was designed for single weight dino oil and we're typically using mult-viscosity semi-synthetic oils. The temp/viscosity characteristics are quite different.
Delaying warm up of an engine can be nearly as bad as the overheating with respect to engine longevity.
You know what they say about aircooled engines - when they're running they're overheating.
I've never had a problem with one not getting up to operating temperature quickly enough.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 28 2019, 12:52 PM
Just want to be clear my intent isn’t to start a pissing contest but rather to reiterate that these engines were designed to work in a certain operational envelope and they do that well as designed.
If you do or have any of the following:
Lug engines on hills or on flat ground
Race under high loads and high RPMs with high rate valve springs to support those RPMs
Have blocked Cooling fins or oil cooler fins
Drive in 100F+ weather with Dealer added A/C
Improper fuel ratios
Improper engine timing
Disabled cooling flaps
You will encounter some sort of temperature issues. Feel free to re-engineer as you see fit to suit the need. I’m a live and let live guy! Have fun with it!
Otherwise a street driven vehicle in normal temperatures ought not be overheating in the first place. Although an engine temp of 180F - 200F is not abnormal for water pumpers, it is on the low end for air cooled engines. Don’t freak out at 225 oil temp. Change often but don’t freak out. 
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