Back is done, on to the front (later in this thread)
Hey guys,
Starting winter projects: Rear Brakes/Suspension are up first.
-This is a street/daily driver. Just trying to get the sagging ass up and improve the ride quality. -
So far I've got New:
100lb Weltmesiter 914rubber Springs
914rubber upper and lower shock rubber bushings
Plan is to buy:KYG 9003 Bilstein Struts
Rear control arm bushings (914Rubber)
Rear Caliper Rebuild Kit (If that seems beyond me I will send to PMB)
Discs and Pads will be addressed as needed once I get it all apart. Turn the discs if needed or replace with new pads. We shall see.
Any suggestions on anything else with the rear brakes/suspension??
Thanks all! -Rob
Front Suspension/Brakes will be part 2 of the project. Just trying to keep it manageable and on budget ish
Just say NO to KYB struts. Spend the money on Bilsteins. You wont be dissapointed.
Always do new brake soft lines if you don't know or cant remember when they were last done.
Hope your budget is $1800.
Might as well do adjustable perches for the Billy's.
Do the bushings yourself and the alignment. You will learn a lot and it's not that hard.
You should check and repack the CV's while you are there and with all that said may never have to touch the rear suspension ever....at least it depends how old you are and have the car.
Good wrenching.
PMB is the benchmark for caliper rebuilds, but I had good luck rebuilding my own with caliper paint and parts bought from PMB. Eric can also just plate your caliper halves if you take them apart first. Change out the brake hoses too.
No KYBs! They're cheaper for a reason. My Koni reds (rear shocks) started leaking, so I pulled the nice looking KYB's off my parts car. They had Weltmeister 140lb springs on them and the car rode like it had no suspension at all. I put new Koni adjustable shocks (with 3 clicks from full soft) in the 140 springs and I really like the ride. Firm, but compliant. I put 100 miles a day on I-5, and still have my kidneys. My car doesn't have sway bars.
I only have experience with rubber suspension bushings. I would probably use original type rubber or maybe a little firmer for a daily.
Better off spending more now rather than might being unhappy later. Deduct what ever you spend on KYBs from the upgrade. Koni yellows are nice due to the ex adj feature. Have a look at Paragon's site. Struts and shocks are prob one of the most rewarding tasks on a 914. 2-4 hours and you have a new car. Inspect the bushings on the tie rods.
As others said, don't use KYB.
KYB= Kill Your Back. If you want to feel every pebble on the road, stay a way from KYB.
Awesome, thanks for the input guys.
Sounds like Koni or Bilstein for the shocks and I'll add new brake soft hoses to the list.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17338 did I see you by the Olympia airport a few days ago? Great looking car!
I was down that way for a wedding , but we took the Wife's Focus.
Besides, if it was "great looking", it wasn't me.
Hey guys!
I've seen a few methods online but what is the best way to get these bushings out of the rear control arms?
After much swearing, hammering and torching I finally got everything torn out and disassembled. Going to sandblast the calipers tomorrow and am awaiting parts from Pelican and 914 Rubber.
Discovered much half assed work from PO much to my amusement. Finally figured out why the right wheel had so much camber than the left...no shim! Lol
From that pic it looks like you may have more work ahead of you.
Having done a few of these ... the problem youll find is that your pivot shafts are going to be pretty rusty & corroded where the OE vulcanized rubber was attached.
I'm reading that you are blasting the calipers, so I assume you're painting them. Make sure no blast media gets into the bleeder hole (or any other caliper passages for that matter). I had to run a wire through mine to clear out some grit. Also, Rustoleum discontinued the silver caliper paint that I used. You're stuck with black or red. VHT, Eastwood and Duplicolor caliper paints are only good for 500-600 degrees, whereas the Rustoleum paints are good for 900. I also used the 2000 deg primer, but the Rustoleum Rep said the caliper paint is direct to metal. I've got over 3000 miles of driving on mine with no discoloration of the silver.
Also clean out any paint overspray where brake fluid will be with solvent.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=453 for sure! It was a ton of work just to get this far and I'm ready for a rough road ahead!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 copy the heat/press
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17338 calipers are taped up/holes stuffed etc but will ensure nothing got by and wilco on the paint, still exploring options
Thanks for the input guys!
1 down! Took about 40 minutes with heat and press.
A little pitting on one end but should lean up nicely
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Mine took 5-10 minutes each side but I really laid in the heat. I was blasting and powder coating after so I didn’t worry about the paint. I was thinking about building up the pits with jb weld and then sanding smooth but I haven’t done it yet. I’m not sure it makes any difference.
Mmmm IDK... I chuck them up in the lathe & take a mil off of them to get down to clean smooth metal before reusing.
Like that operating room clean look of your shop. .
Calipers stripped, blasted and painted.
Will report back on long term endurance of VHT gold caliper paint. They sure look good though.
Got several boxes from Pelican with all new pads rotors and rebuild kits for the calipers. Speed bleeders. Stainless hoses. Bearings will be redone also.
Replacing CV pivot shafts due to wear and destroying one of the threads getting bushings from 914rubber on those and shafts from 914werke
RH side had no shim whatsoever which makes sense as to why that wheel was tipped in so far! Got new 3mm shims to at least get a new base point.
Settled on 914rubber 100lb rear springs and bilsteins.
Fun project so far, sure takes a lot of time and patience but I'm hoping the payoff is worth it!
It will be. Like all vintage German cars 914s respond very well to good parts and attention to detail.
Calipers are looking good!
Please chime in on the difficulty level on reassembly of calipers with the new parts. I'm about to take this brake project on real soon.
Here’s Eric’s /PMB Performance video for rebuilding rear brake calipers. It does include rebuilding the e-brake lever. Great video !!!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22336
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm_DnizKOZM&app=desktop
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23173 I followed the pelican disassembly article and took TONS of pictures along the way. The RIBE bolts were a pain in the ass to get out, they hold the 2 half’s together.
I’ll be heading to Tacoma Screw to get new bolts to mate the two half’s. They are M7 bolts and there is a very limited selection at my local ACE. It appears One caliper had been rebuilt prior and had nuts on the other end of the bolts. They must have blown out the treads?
Will be following along with the PMB video to reinstall, thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825
I’m pretty sure all the calipers had nuts for the ribe bolts and not screwed directly into the caliper. If that’s what I’m getting from your last post. I don’t think there is a source for those bolts other than used. They are pretty unusual.
Drivers side caliper rebuilt!
Still sourcing bolts for the other side
Followed the PMB video for the most part with the occasional improvisation lol
Yes, those look great!
914Rubber 100lb Springs on Bilsteins @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348
If you already have the rear arms out, I would definitely do the wheel bearings.
Bearings are in! Going to make a threaded tool to compress the hubs in evenly like Eric Shea's video shows
Got these really nice pivot arm shafts/bushings from 914rubber @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=453 hooked me up with a replacement hub (PO destroyed one and reinstalled anyway) and some hard brake lines.
CV joints re-packed and new gaskets. 1 gasket was completely missing and was throwing grease inside the control arm by the hub. Glad I caught that.
Tomorrow will try and get the hubs installed and the stainless lines in and then I think I'm ready to start bolting this thing back together!!
Maybe a stupid question...how do I know when the hub is installed fully? Will it bottom out? Can I push in too far?
Is this enough?
The shoulder on the hub will bottom out on the inner bearing race. The hub doesn't go ALL the way through. The hub and the stub axle traps the inner races when you torque the axle nut. (To the proper torque, of course.)
If you look at the process for installing either the various Delrin / poly or the OE replacement rubber versions it is typically necessary to "clearance" the plastic ones, & use a special tool to draw the tight rubber over the shafts for the fitment.
The .01 removed to clean any corrosion isnt significant enough to adversely effect fitment.
IF you are going Polybronze they (Elephant) provide new shafts with their kit.
Actually when Elephant made their rods they used a standard size tube that was not metric line the OEM. The bushings they made are to go with their rod, so they don’t work well with the stock rods (and the ones I made).
Starting to see some progress and feeling like I didn't ruin everything and she may drive once more. Lol!
With the back pretty much wrapped up it's on to the front.
Ripped it all out and have a pretty good plan of action.
New A Arm Bushings/Install Tool (914 Rubber + Ian's Video should help)
Bilsteins on the way to match the rears
New Rotors, Pads, Bearings, Ball-joints
New Stainless soft lines
Rebuilding Calipers (Rears went well so here is round 2 for me)
Tie Rod Ends (Stock not turbo upgrade for me)
Bought the install tool for the ball joints, got the old ones out with the air chisel in about 10 seconds surprisingly!
Bushings were totally shot, out of round and a mess.
Anyways, guidance as always appreciated. Have most of the parts on hand if not already shipping to me so I'm hoping to keep the momentum between trips.
Heat up the fittings that hold the bushings until you see some smoke and then twist them off by inserting a large screwdriver and turning. Wear leather gloves. Propane works fine for this. MAP is just faster.
Looks nice , did you put the spring retainer clip at the top space?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 I was thinking the same thing!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 Hi! Not sure what that means...can you clarify?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 gotcha! Thanks for clarifying. Yes It's at the top spot.
I'm having to kind of do a reset on the car. I bought it about 18 months ago and i'm trying to under the fuckerage and get it back to stock-ish. It has been "Modified" by the last guy who did a piss poor job on everything. Missing alignment shims to the wrong ECU, everything has been done wrong on this car.
I'm totally open to pulling the springs out and changing notches.
The more pressing issue with the lower ride height is the Rivieras (I believe, correct me if i'm wrong) have tires too large for my car and their offset 195/60/R15. With the saggy old springs there was about a piece of paper clearance between the tire and the fender (That includes the fact that the PO rolled the Fender Lip to try and make clearance).
Any guidance on tire size for these?
I'd like to buy Fuchs at some point and have been contacted, but this thing is like a money pit at the moment, lol! (I'm sure it always will be)
Looking at the tyre size charts for comparison my
205/55-16 diameter is 24.9” your
195/60-15 diameter is 24.2” looks like 195/65-15 would be perfect, you are about 3/4” smaller than stock. Also they offset of time is an issue,
I have lots of room with 205/55-16 on 6” wide rims so you can get the correct 15”x5.5” rims (2.0 Fuchs) and you can do 205 wide , some guys have been able to do 215’s but this varies from car to car. Don’t go crazy it doesn’t help much at all for street driving to go so wide. Remember a 205/55-16 is 8” wide on a 6” rim, 195/60 15 is almost 7” wide on a 5.5” rim, so plenty of tread contact on the ground.
Any one else have Rivieras that can weigh in?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 I'm thinking I could go down to 185 or even 175. These 195s are FAT and just look too wide aaaaaand they don't really fit. More of the last guys "mods"
I also noticed some tire rub inside the front wheel well...
Holy cow! That was stressful!
Not sure how in the world this got done before Ian's video. Either way, one side done. Will do the otherside tomorrow.
Stupid question for the night. Bilsteins going up front.
Does this little rubber gasket go on between the strut and the top cover as like a bumper? or does it go on after the cover is on between the strut cover and the car?
And while I'm asking...Torsion Bars!
L for Driver
R for passenger
But....which way do they go in? Does the L/R point to the headlights or the driver?
Thanks!!
Thank you! @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18749
Making slow progress on the front rebuild.
Rebuild kit for calipers did not come with the little O-Rings that seal the 2 halves.
My local hardware store has lots of miscellaneous O-rings so hopefully I can find something that works.
Very nice looking work!
Make sure the O-rings are brake fluid proof.
Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348 text with specs sent
Can someone educate me on the "brake piston gauge plates"?
I took a 50/50 guess as to the orientation....is there a correct up and down or I guess should it be right or left? The piston could rotate 180 and go either way...?? (I'm sure if there is a wrong way that's what I did!)
If doing both calipers at the same time be sure to check orientation before bolting halfs together.
Thanks guys, trying to wrap my mind around it.
Found this pic on a 911 forum that I think helps too
New discs and bearings are in!
Followed Ian's video for good measure.
New Bilsteins, tie rod ends, ball joints, bushings, brake master cylinder, stainless lines, pads and lovely calipers will be on next once I get the o rings from 914rubber
So close to getting back on the road! Can't wait to feel the difference!
This car is like the most frustrating game of Whack a Mole! Fix one problem and boom there's another.
So, suspension, brakes, everything is in rebuilt and pretty! Today's project was to set the front ride height. I followed the procedure, Floor to Center Hub - 90 and that's the height to the center of the torsion bar. A pain in the ass going in circles but I think I finally got it pretty dialed in.
The issue is: now the front is raised up to the correct height the tire strikes the front valance when I turn the wheel hardly at all. I couldn't get the car out of the driveway.
I did not have the issue pre-rebuild, however, pre-rebuild the car was slammed with tons of camber.
My guess is, like the many issues these have brought me, it's the wheel/tire combo.
Rivieras with 195-60R15. I think they are just too damn wide and too tall. The PO messed with so much stuff on this car to make these stupid tires fit.
What do you guys think? Am I missing anything else??
I can't afford wheels and tires after all the cash that went into this so far so i'm limited to just tires.
with 195x60 tires, it should not be that close to the front fender lip/valance. Any picture of the whole tire seeing the whole fender distance? or pic of the rear side of that tire to the fender?
below is 205x60 tire on 15x6 fuch wheel.
It’s the Rivs. That’s a wide tire for them but fine if you have Fuchs.
It shouldn’t be too tall. I have 195x65x15 and it fits fine. Is it a stock valance or aftermarket fiberglass?
Here is a side view pic. The ride height is too high and the back of the car is on jack stands making it look even worse, however, I don't think this is my issue. I believe it is the stock valance.
I'm also now thinking the formula for front ride height is not working with the rivieras...ugh
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Have you settled the suspension? You need to roll or preferably drive it a bit. By formula, do you mean the Haynes manual?
The type of wheel won’t make a difference. They just hold the tire in place. You need to go down at least one notch on the torsion bar splines, maybe/probably two.
The adjusters will be way out of range,so as mentioned the torsion bars need to be turned 1 notch,I had interference with the valance on one side only because its a really crappy f/glass one that is a bad fit and to long on the RH side,that happened when I lowered around 38mm from stock.
I remember having original 5.5 Rivs on my one yr only euro 66 beetle,certainly filled out the guards .
As others have said you're way too high. I wouldn't stick to the factory height spec, I'd aim for level the bottom fender lip to the top of the tire, or even a 1/2" or so lower.
I run as much caster as I can, stock I doubt if you can get any more than 7 degrees which would be OK. This will move the wheel back slightly. More caster makes for harder low speed turning but better high speed tracking.
IIRC -.5 degree camber, and about 7 degree caster with 1/8" toe in is the sweet spot for a stock(-ish) performance street car.
My '74 teen I'm running -.75 degree camber and about 6.5 degree caster, which was the best I could do on one side.
Just an FYI, if you adjust your ride height you have to check the alignment, or you'll have bad tire wear.
Hang in there. It will be worth it.
I think those instructions are to achieve ride height for USA specs. The illustration shows the control arms lower on the wheel side. You'll want them more parallel to the horizon. As it sits, the valance is closer to nearest point of the tire circumference.
Ok guys, I lowered the front end back down to roughly where you guys said and I have good clearance again from the front valance.
Took the car to Les Schwab for an alignment. Car tracks straight but is too bouncy. I believe this is due to the rear springs being on the highest setting. Can't lower it due to the tires being too big for the Rivieras but I think I've found wheels down in AZ that I can pick up that should allow me to lower the rear end. I was warned that this may happen earlier in the thread having the sping that high up so i wasn't shocked. Overall the ride is still WAY better than the 50 year old rubber and springs.
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Question is this....I can NOT get the brakes to LOCK up. Car stops straight and seemingly well but I can't get front or rears to lock up. Is this normal for a 914 or do you think there is still air in the system? (New 19mm Master, rebuilt calipers, all new pads/rotors/soft lines)
I had to bleed 3 times to get the pedal to feel firm but still suspect maybe something is up. I figured the fronts would lock but I don't remember doing this before i rebuilt the system
Thanks all! -Rob
Did you bed in the pads. It’s very important. Eric has a video on his pmb site but basically a couple hard stops from speed but let off right before coming to a complete stop. Get pads and rotors nice and hot and then easy driving while they cool.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 yep, I did the procedure to brake them in for sure
Anyone able to lock up their brakes on their cars?
Can't get mine to lock, wondering if I still have air in the line or it's a 914 thing???
Thanks
Is the pedal going to the floor or does it feel firm as you are trying to lock the brakes? What pads are you running?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3946
Pads are Textar and the pedal stays firm and does not sink to the floor.
I would do another round of bedding the brakes. Sometimes it takes a while to wear off the factory coating and get the pad to bite into the rotor. You should be able to lock them up. Make sure rear pad clearances are correct and that all 4 sides are getting hot after repeated braking.
People don't like to get new rotors with rust on them so I bet the factories put a thick coating on the rotors to the detriment of initial braking.
Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 wilco!
Got these awesome Steelies from Sierra Madre and hubcaps from a member, so happy with how it turned out! Mostly solved the riviera wheel rub issue although these 195s are just barely squeezing into the right rear. Was able to lower the Bilsteins to the 3rd from top with the 914rubber springs and I'm very happy with the results!
DAMN! Looks great!
That looks fantastic! Love steelies with the right stance.
Looks old how does it track?
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