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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Suspension and Brake Refresh

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 9 2019, 10:55 AM

Back is done, on to the front (later in this thread)

Hey guys,

Starting winter projects: Rear Brakes/Suspension are up first.

-This is a street/daily driver. Just trying to get the sagging ass up and improve the ride quality. -

So far I've got New:
100lb Weltmesiter 914rubber Springs
914rubber upper and lower shock rubber bushings

Plan is to buy:
KYG 9003 Bilstein Struts
Rear control arm bushings (914Rubber)
Rear Caliper Rebuild Kit (If that seems beyond me I will send to PMB)

Discs and Pads will be addressed as needed once I get it all apart. Turn the discs if needed or replace with new pads. We shall see.

Any suggestions on anything else with the rear brakes/suspension??

Thanks all! -Rob

Front Suspension/Brakes will be part 2 of the project. Just trying to keep it manageable and on budget ish

Posted by: mepstein Oct 9 2019, 11:01 AM

Just say NO to KYB struts. Spend the money on Bilsteins. You wont be dissapointed.
Always do new brake soft lines if you don't know or cant remember when they were last done.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 9 2019, 11:51 AM

Hope your budget is $1800.


Might as well do adjustable perches for the Billy's.


Do the bushings yourself and the alignment. You will learn a lot and it's not that hard.


You should check and repack the CV's while you are there and with all that said may never have to touch the rear suspension ever....at least it depends how old you are and have the car.

Good wrenching.

Posted by: SirAndy Oct 9 2019, 12:02 PM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Oct 9 2019, 10:01 AM) *
Just say NO to KYB struts

agree.gif

Posted by: Tbrown4x4 Oct 9 2019, 05:13 PM

PMB is the benchmark for caliper rebuilds, but I had good luck rebuilding my own with caliper paint and parts bought from PMB. Eric can also just plate your caliper halves if you take them apart first. Change out the brake hoses too.

No KYBs! They're cheaper for a reason. My Koni reds (rear shocks) started leaking, so I pulled the nice looking KYB's off my parts car. They had Weltmeister 140lb springs on them and the car rode like it had no suspension at all. I put new Koni adjustable shocks (with 3 clicks from full soft) in the 140 springs and I really like the ride. Firm, but compliant. I put 100 miles a day on I-5, and still have my kidneys. My car doesn't have sway bars.

I only have experience with rubber suspension bushings. I would probably use original type rubber or maybe a little firmer for a daily.
IPB Image


IPB Image

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 9 2019, 05:31 PM

Better off spending more now rather than might being unhappy later. Deduct what ever you spend on KYBs from the upgrade. Koni yellows are nice due to the ex adj feature. Have a look at Paragon's site. Struts and shocks are prob one of the most rewarding tasks on a 914. 2-4 hours and you have a new car. Inspect the bushings on the tie rods.

Posted by: roblav1 Oct 9 2019, 06:23 PM

As others said, don't use KYB.

Posted by: 914Sixer Oct 10 2019, 04:22 AM

KYB= Kill Your Back. If you want to feel every pebble on the road, stay a way from KYB.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 10 2019, 07:40 AM

Awesome, thanks for the input guys.

Sounds like Koni or Bilstein for the shocks and I'll add new brake soft hoses to the list.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 10 2019, 07:41 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17338 did I see you by the Olympia airport a few days ago? Great looking car!

Posted by: Tbrown4x4 Oct 11 2019, 04:54 AM

I was down that way for a wedding , but we took the Wife's Focus.

Besides, if it was "great looking", it wasn't me. smile.gif

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 24 2019, 10:24 PM

Hey guys!
I've seen a few methods online but what is the best way to get these bushings out of the rear control arms?

After much swearing, hammering and torching I finally got everything torn out and disassembled. Going to sandblast the calipers tomorrow and am awaiting parts from Pelican and 914 Rubber.

Discovered much half assed work from PO much to my amusement. Finally figured out why the right wheel had so much camber than the left...no shim! LolAttached Image

Posted by: 914werke Oct 25 2019, 12:24 AM

From that pic it looks like you may have more work ahead of you.
Having done a few of these ... the problem youll find is that your pivot shafts are going to be pretty rusty & corroded where the OE vulcanized rubber was attached.

Posted by: Tbrown4x4 Oct 25 2019, 05:01 AM

I'm reading that you are blasting the calipers, so I assume you're painting them. Make sure no blast media gets into the bleeder hole (or any other caliper passages for that matter). I had to run a wire through mine to clear out some grit. Also, Rustoleum discontinued the silver caliper paint that I used. You're stuck with black or red. VHT, Eastwood and Duplicolor caliper paints are only good for 500-600 degrees, whereas the Rustoleum paints are good for 900. I also used the 2000 deg primer, but the Rustoleum Rep said the caliper paint is direct to metal. I've got over 3000 miles of driving on mine with no discoloration of the silver.
Also clean out any paint overspray where brake fluid will be with solvent.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 25 2019, 06:13 AM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Oct 25 2019, 12:24 AM) *

Hey guys!
I've seen a few methods online but what is the best way to get these bushings out of the rear control arms?

After much swearing, hammering and torching I finally got everything torn out and disassembled. Going to sandblast the calipers tomorrow and am awaiting parts from Pelican and 914 Rubber.

Discovered much half assed work from PO much to my amusement. Finally figured out why the right wheel had so much camber than the left...no shim! LolAttached Image

Either heat from a torch or a press. I’ve done both. Torch is the fastest. Heat until you get some smoke and then pry out with a screwdriver. Same with the rubber a arm bushings.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 25 2019, 09:59 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=453 for sure! It was a ton of work just to get this far and I'm ready for a rough road ahead!

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 copy the heat/press

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17338 calipers are taped up/holes stuffed etc but will ensure nothing got by and wilco on the paint, still exploring options

Thanks for the input guys!

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 25 2019, 10:49 AM

1 down! Took about 40 minutes with heat and press.
A little pitting on one end but should lean up nicely


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Posted by: mepstein Oct 25 2019, 11:17 AM

Mine took 5-10 minutes each side but I really laid in the heat. I was blasting and powder coating after so I didn’t worry about the paint. I was thinking about building up the pits with jb weld and then sanding smooth but I haven’t done it yet. I’m not sure it makes any difference.

Posted by: 914werke Oct 25 2019, 11:42 AM

sad.gif Mmmm IDK... I chuck them up in the lathe & take a mil off of them to get down to clean smooth metal before reusing.

Posted by: TonyA Oct 25 2019, 01:31 PM




Like that operating room clean look of your shop. .

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 31 2019, 08:14 AM

Calipers stripped, blasted and painted.
Will report back on long term endurance of VHT gold caliper paint. They sure look good though.

Got several boxes from Pelican with all new pads rotors and rebuild kits for the calipers. Speed bleeders. Stainless hoses. Bearings will be redone also.

Replacing CV pivot shafts due to wear and destroying one of the threads sad.gif getting bushings from 914rubber on those and shafts from 914werke

RH side had no shim whatsoever which makes sense as to why that wheel was tipped in so far! Got new 3mm shims to at least get a new base point.

Settled on 914rubber 100lb rear springs and bilsteins.

Fun project so far, sure takes a lot of time and patience but I'm hoping the payoff is worth it!

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 31 2019, 10:12 AM

It will be. Like all vintage German cars 914s respond very well to good parts and attention to detail.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 31 2019, 10:28 AM

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Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 31 2019, 10:29 AM

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Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Oct 31 2019, 10:30 AM

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Posted by: DucRS Oct 31 2019, 11:10 AM

Calipers are looking good!

Please chime in on the difficulty level on reassembly of calipers with the new parts. I'm about to take this brake project on real soon.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 31 2019, 11:18 AM

Here’s Eric’s /PMB Performance video for rebuilding rear brake calipers. It does include rebuilding the e-brake lever. Great video !!!

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22336

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm_DnizKOZM&app=desktop

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 1 2019, 07:30 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23173 I followed the pelican disassembly article and took TONS of pictures along the way. The RIBE bolts were a pain in the ass to get out, they hold the 2 half’s together.
I’ll be heading to Tacoma Screw to get new bolts to mate the two half’s. They are M7 bolts and there is a very limited selection at my local ACE. It appears One caliper had been rebuilt prior and had nuts on the other end of the bolts. They must have blown out the treads?

Will be following along with the PMB video to reinstall, thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825

Posted by: mepstein Nov 1 2019, 07:34 AM

I’m pretty sure all the calipers had nuts for the ribe bolts and not screwed directly into the caliper. If that’s what I’m getting from your last post. I don’t think there is a source for those bolts other than used. They are pretty unusual.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 1 2019, 07:45 AM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 1 2019, 06:34 AM) *

I’m pretty sure all the calipers had nuts for the ribe bolts and not screwed directly into the caliper. If that’s what I’m getting from your last post. I don’t think there is a source for those bolts other than used. They are pretty unusual.


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 strange! 1 of the calipers is threaded with no nuts! Maybe the PO tapped the calipers? Hmm. I was thinking of drilling out those threads and doing nuts and bolts both sides. Perhaps one caliper is aftermarket?

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 1 2019, 07:46 AM

Attached Image
Drivers side sans nuts

Posted by: mepstein Nov 1 2019, 07:55 AM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 1 2019, 09:45 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 1 2019, 06:34 AM) *

I’m pretty sure all the calipers had nuts for the ribe bolts and not screwed directly into the caliper. If that’s what I’m getting from your last post. I don’t think there is a source for those bolts other than used. They are pretty unusual.


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 strange! 1 of the calipers is threaded with no nuts! Maybe the PO tapped the calipers? Hmm. I was thinking of drilling out those threads and doing nuts and bolts both sides. Perhaps one caliper is aftermarket?

Before you drill out the caliper, I would call Eric/PMB for advice. I'm always leary about modifying brakes and I always go to Eric with brake questions. I'm sure there was a reason they used nuts over a threaded body.

Posted by: bbrock Nov 1 2019, 08:00 AM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 1 2019, 07:34 AM) *

I’m pretty sure all the calipers had nuts for the ribe bolts and not screwed directly into the caliper. If that’s what I’m getting from your last post. I don’t think there is a source for those bolts other than used. They are pretty unusual.


My car had a mix of early and late so I got a nice education on the differences.

Early - Ribe star socket through bolts with nuts.

Late - hex head bolts threaded into the caliper housing (no nuts). The hex head bolts may also be stamped "RIBE" on the head, so it can be a little confusing if we just call them ribe bolts. My late hex head bolts were a mix of Ribe and Verbus.

As far as ease of reassembly - the REassembly is super easy. Takes just a few miutes per caliper. It is the DISassembly that can be a bitch. On a scale of 1-10, I'd say the disassembly can be anywhere from 4-9.5 depending on condition of the caliper and reassembly of a cleaned and prepped caliper an easy 2. I'd put the overall rebuild of a caliper that doesn't give you too many fits at around 5. It's a dirty and time consuming process, but not terrible until you encounter something that is seized and doesn't want to come apart.

Oh, it can also be a really PITA if you send the housings to the wong pater and they come back ruined. Ask me how I know. headbang.gif Send them to Eric for plating.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22336 your painted calipers look really nice! Will be curious to see how they hold up. I'm impressed.

Posted by: mepstein Nov 1 2019, 08:48 AM

QUOTE(bbrock @ Nov 1 2019, 10:00 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 1 2019, 07:34 AM) *

I’m pretty sure all the calipers had nuts for the ribe bolts and not screwed directly into the caliper. If that’s what I’m getting from your last post. I don’t think there is a source for those bolts other than used. They are pretty unusual.


My car had a mix of early and late so I got a nice education on the differences.

Early - Ribe star socket through bolts with nuts.

Late - hex head bolts threaded into the caliper housing (no nuts). The hex head bolts may also be stamped "RIBE" on the head, so it can be a little confusing if we just call them ribe bolts. My late hex head bolts were a mix of Ribe and Verbus.

As far as ease of reassembly - the REassembly is super easy. Takes just a few miutes per caliper. It is the DISassembly that can be a bitch. On a scale of 1-10, I'd say the disassembly can be anywhere from 4-9.5 depending on condition of the caliper and reassembly of a cleaned and prepped caliper an easy 2. I'd put the overall rebuild of a caliper that doesn't give you too many fits at around 5. It's a dirty and time consuming process, but not terrible until you encounter something that is seized and doesn't want to come apart.

Oh, it can also be a really PITA if you send the housings to the wong pater and they come back ruined. Ask me how I know. headbang.gif Send them to Eric for plating.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22336 your painted calipers look really nice! Will be curious to see how they hold up. I'm impressed.

Almost all of my cars have been early so that's why I'm mistaken on the caliper fasteners. beerchug.gif

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 5 2019, 07:46 PM

Drivers side caliper rebuilt!
Still sourcing bolts for the other side
Followed the PMB video for the most part with the occasional improvisation lolAttached ImageAttached Image

Posted by: eatpez Nov 5 2019, 08:00 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 5 2019, 08:46 PM) *

Drivers side caliper rebuilt!
Still sourcing bolts for the other side
Followed the PMB video for the most part with the occasional improvisation lolAttached ImageAttached Image


Looking really nice. Well done.

Posted by: Tbrown4x4 Nov 5 2019, 09:34 PM

Yes, those look great!

Posted by: 914werke Nov 7 2019, 02:14 PM

Shafted!


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Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 13 2019, 09:45 AM

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914Rubber 100lb Springs on Bilsteins aktion035.gif @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348

Posted by: mepstein Nov 13 2019, 10:27 AM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 13 2019, 10:45 AM) *

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914Rubber 100lb Springs on Bilsteins aktion035.gif


Bils seem to take a couple hundred miles to "break in" and smooth out. Don't be alarmed if they are a little stiff your first ride.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 13 2019, 11:29 AM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 13 2019, 08:27 AM) *

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 13 2019, 10:45 AM) *

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914Rubber 100lb Springs on Bilsteins aktion035.gif


Bils seem to take a couple hundred miles to "break in" and smooth out. Don't be alarmed if they are a little stiff your first ride.


Thanks for the heads up @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825

Posted by: type2man Nov 13 2019, 06:26 PM

If you already have the rear arms out, I would definitely do the wheel bearings.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 14 2019, 11:11 PM

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Bearings are in! Going to make a threaded tool to compress the hubs in evenly like Eric Shea's video shows

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Got these really nice pivot arm shafts/bushings from 914rubber @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=453 hooked me up with a replacement hub (PO destroyed one and reinstalled anyway) and some hard brake lines.

CV joints re-packed and new gaskets. 1 gasket was completely missing and was throwing grease inside the control arm by the hub. Glad I caught that.

Tomorrow will try and get the hubs installed and the stainless lines in and then I think I'm ready to start bolting this thing back together!!

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 15 2019, 11:55 AM

Maybe a stupid question...how do I know when the hub is installed fully? Will it bottom out? Can I push in too far?

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Is this enough?

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 15 2019, 11:56 AM

Should the hub shaft be flush with bearing?? Attached Image

Posted by: Tbrown4x4 Nov 15 2019, 01:14 PM

The shoulder on the hub will bottom out on the inner bearing race. The hub doesn't go ALL the way through. The hub and the stub axle traps the inner races when you torque the axle nut. (To the proper torque, of course.)

Posted by: TargaToy Nov 15 2019, 02:32 PM

QUOTE(914werke @ Nov 7 2019, 03:14 PM) *

Shafted!


I've been curious, since you mentioned it in an earlier post, if milling the shafts like that causes any "slop" in the fitment of the new bushings, presuming they are designed for factory dimension of the pivot shafts.

Posted by: 914werke Nov 15 2019, 03:35 PM

If you look at the process for installing either the various Delrin / poly or the OE replacement rubber versions it is typically necessary to "clearance" the plastic ones, & use a special tool to draw the tight rubber over the shafts for the fitment.
The .01 removed to clean any corrosion isnt significant enough to adversely effect fitment.
IF you are going Polybronze they (Elephant) provide new shafts with their kit.

Posted by: TargaToy Nov 15 2019, 03:59 PM

QUOTE(914werke @ Nov 15 2019, 04:35 PM) *

If you look at the process for installing either the various Delrin / poly or the OE replacement rubber version it is typically necessary to "clearance" the plastic ones, & use a special tool to draw the tight rubber over the shafts for the fitment.
The .01 removed to clean any corrosion isnt significant enough to adversely effect fitment.
IF you are going Polybronze they (Elephant) provide new shafts with their kit.


Gotcha. That makes sense.

Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 15 2019, 06:19 PM

Actually when Elephant made their rods they used a standard size tube that was not metric line the OEM. The bushings they made are to go with their rod, so they don’t work well with the stock rods (and the ones I made).

Posted by: 914werke Nov 16 2019, 12:21 AM

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Nov 15 2019, 04:19 PM) *
Actually when Elephant made their rods they used a standard size tube that was not metric line the OEM. The bushings they made are to go with their rod, so they don’t work well with the stock rods (and the ones I made).
confused24.gif why would you bother with used OE ones if you are getting new ones as part of their (elephant) kits?

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 16 2019, 07:05 PM

Starting to see some progress and feeling like I didn't ruin everything and she may drive once more. Lol!Attached Image

Posted by: Mikey914 Nov 16 2019, 11:22 PM

QUOTE(914werke @ Nov 15 2019, 10:21 PM) *

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Nov 15 2019, 04:19 PM) *
Actually when Elephant made their rods they used a standard size tube that was not metric line the OEM. The bushings they made are to go with their rod, so they don’t work well with the stock rods (and the ones I made).
confused24.gif why would you bother with used OE ones if you are getting new ones as part of their (elephant) kits?

Yes but you can't use the rubber without their shafts.
It will not fit correctly as they made a non standard size.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 12:54 PM

With the back pretty much wrapped up it's on to the front.

Ripped it all out and have a pretty good plan of action.

New A Arm Bushings/Install Tool (914 Rubber + Ian's Video should help)
Bilsteins on the way to match the rears
New Rotors, Pads, Bearings, Ball-joints
New Stainless soft lines
Rebuilding Calipers (Rears went well so here is round 2 for me)
Tie Rod Ends (Stock not turbo upgrade for me)

Bought the install tool for the ball joints, got the old ones out with the air chisel in about 10 seconds surprisingly!

Bushings were totally shot, out of round and a mess.

Anyways, guidance as always appreciated. Have most of the parts on hand if not already shipping to me so I'm hoping to keep the momentum between trips.Attached Image

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 12:54 PM

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Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 12:55 PM

This was the worse of the two sides

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Posted by: mepstein Nov 23 2019, 01:31 PM

Heat up the fittings that hold the bushings until you see some smoke and then twist them off by inserting a large screwdriver and turning. Wear leather gloves. Propane works fine for this. MAP is just faster.

Posted by: mepstein Nov 23 2019, 01:36 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 16 2019, 08:05 PM) *

Starting to see some progress and feeling like I didn't ruin everything and she may drive once more. Lol!Attached Image


I'm curious about the rear shafts. None of the ones I've taken apart seem to have washers on the ends of the shafts. Is that correct?


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Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 02:07 PM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 23 2019, 11:36 AM) *

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 16 2019, 08:05 PM) *

Starting to see some progress and feeling like I didn't ruin everything and she may drive once more. Lol!Attached Image


I'm curious about the rear shafts. None of the ones I've taken apart seem to have washers on the ends of the shafts. Is that correct?


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825
I put the washers on there...it just feels wierd to not! Should I take them off? Was there a reason to NOT use a washer?

Posted by: mepstein Nov 23 2019, 02:10 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 23 2019, 03:07 PM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Nov 23 2019, 11:36 AM) *

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 16 2019, 08:05 PM) *

Starting to see some progress and feeling like I didn't ruin everything and she may drive once more. Lol!Attached Image


I'm curious about the rear shafts. None of the ones I've taken apart seem to have washers on the ends of the shafts. Is that correct?


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825
I put the washers on there...it just feels wierd to not! Should I take them off? Was there a reason to NOT use a washer?

No, I'm not saying you are wrong. I put a washer there as well. I'm just wondering why Porsche didn't confused24.gif

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 23 2019, 02:34 PM

Looks nice , did you put the spring retainer clip at the top space?

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 03:13 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 I was thinking the same thing! confused24.gif

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 03:14 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 Hi! Not sure what that means...can you clarify?

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 23 2019, 04:47 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 23 2019, 04:14 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 Hi! Not sure what that means...can you clarify?

There are 6 I think slots for the retainer that holds the spring retainer clip. It looks like you are set at the very top one ( grooves on the yellow billestien shock) it ma be a bit too springy and high at that setting, at least that was my experience. Mine is at the third slot down, seems about right for height and feel, but every car is different

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 05:06 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 gotcha! Thanks for clarifying. Yes It's at the top spot.

I'm having to kind of do a reset on the car. I bought it about 18 months ago and i'm trying to under the fuckerage and get it back to stock-ish. It has been "Modified" by the last guy who did a piss poor job on everything. Missing alignment shims to the wrong ECU, everything has been done wrong on this car.

I'm totally open to pulling the springs out and changing notches.

The more pressing issue with the lower ride height is the Rivieras (I believe, correct me if i'm wrong) have tires too large for my car and their offset 195/60/R15. With the saggy old springs there was about a piece of paper clearance between the tire and the fender (That includes the fact that the PO rolled the Fender Lip to try and make clearance).

Any guidance on tire size for these?

I'd like to buy Fuchs at some point and have been contacted, but this thing is like a money pit at the moment, lol! (I'm sure it always will be)


Posted by: mepstein Nov 23 2019, 05:44 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 23 2019, 07:06 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 gotcha! Thanks for clarifying. Yes It's at the top spot.

I'm having to kind of do a reset on the car. I bought it about 18 months ago and i'm trying to under the fuckerage and get it back to stock-ish. It has been "Modified" by the last guy who did a piss poor job on everything. Missing alignment shims to the wrong ECU, everything has been done wrong on this car.

I'm totally open to pulling the springs out and changing notches.

The more pressing issue with the lower ride height is the Rivieras (I believe, correct me if i'm wrong) have tires too large for my car and their offset 195/60/R15. With the saggy old springs there was about a piece of paper clearance between the tire and the fender (That includes the fact that the PO rolled the Fender Lip to try and make clearance).

Any guidance on tire size for these?

I'd like to buy Fuchs at some point and have been contacted, but this thing is like a money pit at the moment, lol! (I'm sure it always will be)

I put my springs on a lower notch but the car was so low I had to raise it up. I would start where you are, let the car settle a bit and then reassess. Too high is better than too low.
It's hard to go wide with Rivs. They just have the wrong offset. I have 195x65x15 on a stock narrowbody with 5.5' 2.0 Fuchs, fit is great. 205x60x15 on 6" cookies. Fit is very good. Neither car has rolled fenders. Starting with the right wheel is important.

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 23 2019, 07:16 PM

Looking at the tyre size charts for comparison my
205/55-16 diameter is 24.9” your
195/60-15 diameter is 24.2” looks like 195/65-15 would be perfect, you are about 3/4” smaller than stock. Also they offset of time is an issue,
I have lots of room with 205/55-16 on 6” wide rims so you can get the correct 15”x5.5” rims (2.0 Fuchs) and you can do 205 wide , some guys have been able to do 215’s but this varies from car to car. Don’t go crazy it doesn’t help much at all for street driving to go so wide. Remember a 205/55-16 is 8” wide on a 6” rim, 195/60 15 is almost 7” wide on a 5.5” rim, so plenty of tread contact on the ground.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Nov 23 2019, 08:35 PM

Any one else have Rivieras that can weigh in?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 I'm thinking I could go down to 185 or even 175. These 195s are FAT and just look too wide aaaaaand they don't really fit. More of the last guys "mods" lol-2.gif lol-2.gif hissyfit.gif
WTF.gif

I also noticed some tire rub inside the front wheel well...

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 24 2019, 06:35 AM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 23 2019, 09:35 PM) *

Any one else have Rivieras that can weigh in?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11106 I'm thinking I could go down to 185 or even 175. These 195s are FAT and just look too wide aaaaaand they don't really fit. More of the last guys "mods" lol-2.gif lol-2.gif hissyfit.gif
WTF.gif

I also noticed some tire rub inside the front wheel well...


I have not had the Rivieras but my car had the EMPI VW rims on it with similar issues when I bought it , even rubbed with 185’s. I do like the Pedrini and Mahle best but the 4-lug Fuchs are nice, too, all have proper spacing to better fit a 914. I had a set of thr Mahle but ended up doing the 5-lug conversion and going with Fuchs. You can find some on World Classifieds I am sure.

Posted by: mepstein Nov 24 2019, 12:24 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Nov 23 2019, 04:13 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 I was thinking the same thing! confused24.gif

So I think what Porsche calls the link bearing (#5) that holds the end of the shaft in place is acting as a washer on the shaft. There is a normal washer on the end for the inner suspension console.


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Posted by: jmitro Nov 24 2019, 02:29 PM

QUOTE(DRPHIL914 @ Nov 23 2019, 04:47 PM) *

There are 6 I think slots for the retainer that holds the spring retainer clip. It looks like you are set at the very top one ( grooves on the yellow billestien shock) it ma be a bit too springy and high at that setting, at least that was my experience. Mine is at the third slot down, seems about right for height and feel, but every car is different


it also will depend on the spring rate and unloaded length of the spring.
I have 140lb Weltmeisters (don't know the unloaded length) and the spring perch is on 4th notch from the bottom

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 1 2019, 10:43 AM

Attached Image
Holy cow! That was stressful!
Not sure how in the world this got done before Ian's video. Either way, one side done. Will do the otherside tomorrow. aktion035.gif

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 2 2019, 09:40 PM

Stupid question for the night. Bilsteins going up front.

Does this little rubber gasket go on between the strut and the top cover as like a bumper? or does it go on after the cover is on between the strut cover and the car?Attached Image

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 2 2019, 09:43 PM

And while I'm asking...Torsion Bars!

L for Driver
R for passenger

But....which way do they go in? Does the L/R point to the headlights or the driver?

Thanks!!

Posted by: cuddy_k Dec 2 2019, 09:58 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Dec 1 2019, 11:43 AM) *

Holy cow! That was stressful!
Not sure how in the world this got done before Ian's video. Either way, one side done. Will do the otherside tomorrow. aktion035.gif

Ha! You shoulda seen the outtakes wink.gif

Looks like you did great. Congrats!

Posted by: mepstein Dec 2 2019, 10:15 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Dec 2 2019, 10:40 PM) *

Stupid question for the night. Bilsteins going up front.

Does this little rubber gasket go on between the strut and the top cover as like a bumper? or does it go on after the cover is on between the strut cover and the car?Attached Image

The little rubber gasket gets tossed. It's just there for shipping. Unlike Boge, there is no bumper under the cylindrical dust cover. Bilsteins have an internal bumper. Also, no oil in the strut housing like older strut inserts. All my info comes direct from Bilstein.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 2 2019, 10:15 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Dec 2 2019, 10:43 PM) *

And while I'm asking...Torsion Bars!

L for Driver
R for passenger

But....which way do they go in? Does the L/R point to the headlights or the driver?

Thanks!!

headlights

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 3 2019, 08:10 AM

Thank you! @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18749 beerchug.gif

Posted by: bbrock Dec 3 2019, 08:55 AM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Dec 2 2019, 08:43 PM) *

And while I'm asking...Torsion Bars!

L for Driver
R for passenger

But....which way do they go in? Does the L/R point to the headlights or the driver?

Thanks!!


Turns out it doesn't really matter. The twist on the bar is in the same direction no matter which end you install to the front. Swapping left and right is a different story.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 18 2019, 10:34 PM

Making slow progress on the front rebuild.

Rebuild kit for calipers did not come with the little O-Rings that seal the 2 halves.

My local hardware store has lots of miscellaneous O-rings so hopefully I can find something that works.Attached Image


Posted by: maf914 Dec 19 2019, 07:16 AM

Very nice looking work!

Make sure the O-rings are brake fluid proof. idea.gif

Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 19 2019, 01:50 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Dec 18 2019, 08:34 PM) *

Making slow progress on the front rebuild.

Rebuild kit for calipers did not come with the little O-Rings that seal the 2 halves.

My local hardware store has lots of miscellaneous O-rings so hopefully I can find something that works.Attached Image

We have a line of viton O rings we make under contract for another company we have the ability sell them as it's another industry. Let me know what you need.

Mark

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 19 2019, 08:16 PM

Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348 text with specs sent

Can someone educate me on the "brake piston gauge plates"?

I took a 50/50 guess as to the orientation....is there a correct up and down or I guess should it be right or left? The piston could rotate 180 and go either way...?? (I'm sure if there is a wrong way that's what I did!)

Attached Image

Posted by: bbrock Dec 20 2019, 12:50 AM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Dec 19 2019, 07:16 PM) *

Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348 text with specs sent

Can someone educate me on the "brake piston gauge plates"?

I took a 50/50 guess as to the orientation....is there a correct up and down or I guess should it be right or left? The piston could rotate 180 and go either way...?? (I'm sure if there is a wrong way that's what I did!)


Explanation starting near the bottom of the last pic in this article: https://www.pmbperformance.com/brakehowto.html

Posted by: rgalla9146 Dec 20 2019, 07:23 AM

If doing both calipers at the same time be sure to check orientation before bolting halfs together.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 20 2019, 09:22 AM

Thanks guys, trying to wrap my mind around it.
Found this pic on a 911 forum that I think helps tooAttached Image

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 21 2019, 02:39 PM

Did a test fit just to make sure I had it oriented right!Attached Image

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Dec 21 2019, 02:40 PM

New discs and bearings are in!
Followed Ian's video for good measure.Attached Image

New Bilsteins, tie rod ends, ball joints, bushings, brake master cylinder, stainless lines, pads and lovely calipers will be on next once I get the o rings from 914rubber

So close to getting back on the road! Can't wait to feel the difference!

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 5 2020, 06:44 PM

This car is like the most frustrating game of Whack a Mole! Fix one problem and boom there's another. hissyfit.gif hissyfit.gif hissyfit.gif hissyfit.gif

So, suspension, brakes, everything is in rebuilt and pretty! Today's project was to set the front ride height. I followed the procedure, Floor to Center Hub - 90 and that's the height to the center of the torsion bar. A pain in the ass going in circles but I think I finally got it pretty dialed in.

The issue is: now the front is raised up to the correct height the tire strikes the front valance when I turn the wheel hardly at all. I couldn't get the car out of the driveway.

Attached Image

I did not have the issue pre-rebuild, however, pre-rebuild the car was slammed with tons of camber.

My guess is, like the many issues these have brought me, it's the wheel/tire combo.
Rivieras with 195-60R15. I think they are just too damn wide and too tall. The PO messed with so much stuff on this car to make these stupid tires fit.

What do you guys think? Am I missing anything else??

I can't afford wheels and tires after all the cash that went into this so far so i'm limited to just tires.


Posted by: ndfrigi Jan 5 2020, 07:23 PM

with 195x60 tires, it should not be that close to the front fender lip/valance. Any picture of the whole tire seeing the whole fender distance? or pic of the rear side of that tire to the fender?

below is 205x60 tire on 15x6 fuch wheel.

Attached Image

Posted by: mepstein Jan 5 2020, 07:41 PM

It’s the Rivs. That’s a wide tire for them but fine if you have Fuchs.

It shouldn’t be too tall. I have 195x65x15 and it fits fine. Is it a stock valance or aftermarket fiberglass?

Posted by: DickSteinkamp Jan 5 2020, 07:44 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Jan 5 2020, 04:44 PM) *



What do you guys think? Am I missing anything else??




I'm thinking that Rivieras must have less backspacing than most other wheel options.


These are 195 65 15s on reproduction 5.5" Fuchs...

IPB Image

No rubbing ever. Not even close.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 5 2020, 08:14 PM

Here is a side view pic. The ride height is too high and the back of the car is on jack stands making it look even worse, however, I don't think this is my issue. I believe it is the stock valance.

I'm also now thinking the formula for front ride height is not working with the rivieras...ugh


Attached thumbnail(s)
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Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 5 2020, 08:15 PM

Attached Image

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 5 2020, 08:19 PM

Have you settled the suspension? You need to roll or preferably drive it a bit. By formula, do you mean the Haynes manual?

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 5 2020, 08:25 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 5 2020, 06:19 PM) *

Have you settled the suspension? You need to roll or preferably dive it a bit. By formula, do you mean the Haynes manual?


I was able to drive back and forth in driveway getting on brakes etc.

And I followed the formula from the old porsche manual....
Attached Image

Posted by: mepstein Jan 5 2020, 08:25 PM

The type of wheel won’t make a difference. They just hold the tire in place. You need to go down at least one notch on the torsion bar splines, maybe/probably two.

Posted by: burton73 Jan 5 2020, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Jan 5 2020, 06:25 PM) *

The type of wheel won’t make a difference. They just hold the tire in place. You need to go down at least one notch on the torsion bar splines, maybe/probably two.


agree.gif

It looks like it is way to high.

Bob B

Posted by: ndfrigi Jan 5 2020, 09:37 PM

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Jan 5 2020, 06:14 PM) *

Here is a side view pic. The ride height is too high and the back of the car is on jack stands making it look even worse, however, I don't think this is my issue. I believe it is the stock valance.

I'm also now thinking the formula for front ride height is not working with the rivieras...ugh


maybe too much negative caster or something wrong with the suspension that makes the center wheel towards the front since the picture show there is a lot of space at the rear side.

and the lower valance seems bent that makes it leaning inside or that was cause by the tire rubbing to the valance?

Posted by: raynekat Jan 5 2020, 09:45 PM

QUOTE(ndfrigi @ Jan 5 2020, 07:37 PM) *

QUOTE(tvdinnerbythepool @ Jan 5 2020, 06:14 PM) *

Here is a side view pic. The ride height is too high and the back of the car is on jack stands making it look even worse, however, I don't think this is my issue. I believe it is the stock valance.

I'm also now thinking the formula for front ride height is not working with the rivieras...ugh


maybe too much negative caster or something wrong with the suspension that makes the center wheel towards the front since the picture show there is a lot of space at the rear side.

and the lower valance seems bent that makes it leaning inside or that was cause by the tire rubbing to the valance?


I agree with both: too much caster and the lower valance looks off.

Posted by: porschetub Jan 5 2020, 11:30 PM

The adjusters will be way out of range,so as mentioned the torsion bars need to be turned 1 notch,I had interference with the valance on one side only because its a really crappy f/glass one that is a bad fit and to long on the RH side,that happened when I lowered around 38mm from stock.
I remember having original 5.5 Rivs on my one yr only euro 66 beetle,certainly filled out the guards .

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 6 2020, 09:21 AM

As others have said you're way too high. I wouldn't stick to the factory height spec, I'd aim for level the bottom fender lip to the top of the tire, or even a 1/2" or so lower.

I run as much caster as I can, stock I doubt if you can get any more than 7 degrees which would be OK. This will move the wheel back slightly. More caster makes for harder low speed turning but better high speed tracking.
IIRC -.5 degree camber, and about 7 degree caster with 1/8" toe in is the sweet spot for a stock(-ish) performance street car.
My '74 teen I'm running -.75 degree camber and about 6.5 degree caster, which was the best I could do on one side.

Just an FYI, if you adjust your ride height you have to check the alignment, or you'll have bad tire wear.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 6 2020, 12:25 PM

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jan 6 2020, 07:21 AM) *

As others have said you're way too high. I wouldn't stick to the factory height spec, I'd aim for level the bottom fender lip to the top of the tire, or even a 1/2" or so lower.

I run as much caster as I can, stock I doubt if you can get any more than 7 degrees which would be OK. This will move the wheel back slightly. More caster makes for harder low speed turning but better high speed tracking.
IIRC -.5 degree camber, and about 7 degree caster with 1/8" toe in is the sweet spot for a stock(-ish) performance street car.
My '74 teen I'm running -.75 degree camber and about 6.5 degree caster, which was the best I could do on one side.

Just an FYI, if you adjust your ride height you have to check the alignment, or you'll have bad tire wear.

Thank you EVERYONE as always!

I am going to switch to stock wheels and tires, and this ABSOLUTELY needs an alignment. I Agree. The stock formula led me astray. I agree with @MarkHenry as a place to aim with ride height and other specs.

I appreciate the input and will report back when I have made some more progress.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 6 2020, 12:31 PM

Hang in there. It will be worth it. driving.gif

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 6 2020, 12:38 PM

I think those instructions are to achieve ride height for USA specs. The illustration shows the control arms lower on the wheel side. You'll want them more parallel to the horizon. As it sits, the valance is closer to nearest point of the tire circumference.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 22 2020, 07:51 AM

Ok guys, I lowered the front end back down to roughly where you guys said and I have good clearance again from the front valance.

Took the car to Les Schwab for an alignment. Car tracks straight but is too bouncy. I believe this is due to the rear springs being on the highest setting. Can't lower it due to the tires being too big for the Rivieras but I think I've found wheels down in AZ that I can pick up that should allow me to lower the rear end. I was warned that this may happen earlier in the thread having the sping that high up so i wasn't shocked. Overall the ride is still WAY better than the 50 year old rubber and springs.
---------------------
Question is this....I can NOT get the brakes to LOCK up. Car stops straight and seemingly well but I can't get front or rears to lock up. Is this normal for a 914 or do you think there is still air in the system? (New 19mm Master, rebuilt calipers, all new pads/rotors/soft lines)

I had to bleed 3 times to get the pedal to feel firm but still suspect maybe something is up. I figured the fronts would lock but I don't remember doing this before i rebuilt the system

Thanks all! -Rob


Posted by: mepstein Jan 22 2020, 08:10 AM

Did you bed in the pads. It’s very important. Eric has a video on his pmb site but basically a couple hard stops from speed but let off right before coming to a complete stop. Get pads and rotors nice and hot and then easy driving while they cool.

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 22 2020, 09:33 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 yep, I did the procedure to brake them in for sure

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 24 2020, 07:54 AM

Anyone able to lock up their brakes on their cars? confused24.gif

Can't get mine to lock, wondering if I still have air in the line or it's a 914 thing???

Thanks

Posted by: yeahmag Jan 25 2020, 10:22 AM

Is the pedal going to the floor or does it feel firm as you are trying to lock the brakes? What pads are you running?

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 25 2020, 01:59 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3946

Pads are Textar and the pedal stays firm and does not sink to the floor.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 25 2020, 02:21 PM

I would do another round of bedding the brakes. Sometimes it takes a while to wear off the factory coating and get the pad to bite into the rotor. You should be able to lock them up. Make sure rear pad clearances are correct and that all 4 sides are getting hot after repeated braking.

People don't like to get new rotors with rust on them so I bet the factories put a thick coating on the rotors to the detriment of initial braking.


Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Jan 25 2020, 03:30 PM

Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825 wilco!

Posted by: tvdinnerbythepool Apr 13 2020, 08:27 PM

Attached Image

Got these awesome Steelies from Sierra Madre and hubcaps from a member, so happy with how it turned out! Mostly solved the riviera wheel rub issue although these 195s are just barely squeezing into the right rear. Was able to lower the Bilsteins to the 3rd from top with the 914rubber springs and I'm very happy with the results!

Posted by: 914werke Apr 13 2020, 08:54 PM

DAMN! Looks great!

Posted by: bigkensteele Apr 13 2020, 09:09 PM

That looks fantastic! Love steelies with the right stance.

Posted by: PanelBilly Apr 13 2020, 09:11 PM

Looks old how does it track?

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