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Posted by: orangecrate Dec 7 2019, 11:33 AM

So I been workin on the orangecrate off an on for what seems like forever... seems I now have rod issues. Knock knock.... Any way I'm lookin at building a motor, or rebuilding. Inexpensively I have only 2 real conditions I want to meet. 1- It will run 80 mph all day thru the desert in the summer in Phoenix and sit at stoplights with out cooking itself. 2- It will pull the 6% grades that you hit leaving the valley at 70 in the summer without cooking itself. 75 would be nicer. Guess I"m talking a torque motor. This is a stock 72 with stock gearing. And maybe one size up tires. Did I say it needs to be reliable? Like Phoenix to Portland and back any time of year reliable. And inexpensive.. I'd love to buy a Raby motor but $$$. Oh yea. I will be doing the assembly myself. And I'd like to use as much of the 1.7 as possible if possible. Thanks for the input. Build away.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 7 2019, 12:32 PM

Add an oil cooler. Tangerine makes a bolt on kit.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 7 2019, 12:55 PM

2.0L Stock or maybe 2056 is probably the sweet spot in my opinion. Combine with external oil cooler as Mark suggests will be your best bet short of moving to water cooling. Your situation in AZ with the temperatures and the long grades is a challenge for a 914 as I'm sure you're aware. As long as you avoid lugging the grades, you will be OK with an external cooler.

2.0L crank is bascially a small stroker over a 1.7L No need to get crazy here if you want durability.

Just in case anyone is not aware of the forumla:
(RPM * T) / 5252=HP

Only two ways to make more HP. Make more torque or spin the engine faster. Or, a combination of both.

Type 4 has a bit of an upper bound w.r.t. spinning them faster. Sure there are people that spin them to 7200 or 8,000 for racing purposes but that comes with durability implications both for the valves (i.e. valve float) and for the crank on the bottom end due to the nature of the T4 crank.

That leaves make more torque. That comes from either a stroker crank or bigger pistons setting aside implcations of getting more air flow into and out of the head to support the increased dispalacments.

You could go to a "bigger stroker" crank but at some point the increased stroke of the crank begins to work aginst you by generating bigger forces on the crank (and bearings) than it was designed to handle.

Bigger pistons also work against you beyond a resonable limit by increasing inertial forces on the crank and by generating more torque on the crank than it was desinged to handle. Larger displacement, bigger pistons (i.e more fuel burned) = more heat. Since cooling is limited by the T4 centrifugal fan, there isn't a whole lot more heat extraction you can get without going to Nickies which is what is at the heart of the Raby Kit both in terms of $$ and ability to make more power without compromising durability much. If you can afford them, I'd do them.

The cheapest, easiest way to get more heat out and away from the engine is via external oil cooler as suggested by Mark. Next would be to consider the Thermal Barrier Coatings inside the head combustion chamber and exhaust ports to keep heat out of the heads and high emissivity coatings on the head exterior to help transfer heat out of the heads. HAM can assist you with either of these coatings on their heads.

Bottom line, the crazier you get from 2056, the more cooling problems you'll generate with limted solutions to keep it durable.

Big six or Porsharu are going to be your best bets to get more way more HP and keep the durability.

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 7 2019, 01:44 PM

First is it knocking? Many newbies mistake a "knocking sound" from the normal sounds an aircooled engine makes, especially at idle. If the "knocking sound" disappears as soon as you apply power and never gets louder then you just may not be used to the sounds an AC engine makes. If it truly is knocking then you should be still able to hear it as you drive and the noise should be getting progressively a lot louder as time goes by.

As far as power and/or a rebuild goes you need give us a budget range, because one man's version of cheap is another's man's damn expensive, just saying "cheap" tells us nothing. For example you say a Raby engine is too expensive, but if you DIY that's almost half the cost, so a $8-10K budget which some may consider "cheap". Flip side of that is you have totally unrealistic budget, a case of beer isn't going to cut it.

Are you using the 1.7 stock Djet FI induction or carbs? What exhaust?
What you have? Just the engine in the car? Do you have any spares? A lot of owners have spare core engines, etc., that we can use towards a project.

You need to give us some more info.

Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 7 2019, 01:58 PM

Do the 1.7 case spigots and heads limit cyl/piston selection?

Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 7 2019, 02:33 PM

As Superhawk says - a 2056cc with a external oil cooler, Raby 9590 cam & lifters, HAM setup AA 2.0L heads with internal coatings and stock Djet FI or Ljet FI, SSI exchangers and a Triad or Bursch exhaust.
115 to 120HP and runs cooler.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 7 2019, 02:56 PM

Only to the extent that 1.7L heads have smaller valves/ports and will limit airflow. Machine work can fix case/head fit.

I built my original car's engine from a 1.7L and at the time I couldn't afford 2.0L heads. I went 96mm flat top pistons, carbs, performance cam, and had the 1.7L heads fly cut to accomodate the 96mm cylinders. The engine never really achieved it's potential from the displacment bump due to the heads restricting flow and my running stock heat exchanger pipes (minus exchangers for weight reduction ). Upping the compression ratio helped. Better than what I had started with but certainly wasn't Raby HP

Per Mark Henry's note. Budget really needs to be known. I had sort of assumed that best plan would be to source fresh 2.0L AAP heads from HAM but those alone are $1700-1900 per pair (with aforementioned coatings) so may not exactly be "cheap" depending on OP's point of view.

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 7 2019, 03:31 PM

I put a few miles on this before it went down for a lot of work , none engine related. It sat for some time (yrs) with out running. When I finally got it roadworthy and awakened it from it's slumber, that damn green light stayed on way too long after it lit off. My kid, a certified ,factory trained Porsche tech, who has gone to the dark side and is now a factory trained Ferrari tech, heard that nasty little noise too. We agreed it sounds like a rod knock. I would like to stay with FI but I understand the DJet really isn't very compatible with anything but factory stock. Plus it is Stock, meaning everything is pushing 50 yrs old Probably run the stock exhaust so I can have heat if I go north. Haven't ran it in AZ so not sure how it would pull the grades here. I know they are deceiving. once you leave the valley, you are going up north and east.
I said inexpensive , not cheap. I'll buy quality stuff if I need too, but only what I need. This isn't a hot rod, as much as I'd like to go the whole outlaw route. If that were the case , I'd go looking for an aluminum V6. But that's another ball game. All I have is the engine in it . If I can meet my goals staying close to that ,I'd be happy as a clam. And half the cost of a Raby motor is "inexpensive". Not to knock him in any way, but part of what you are paying for is "Raby". That's just business.

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 7 2019, 03:51 PM

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 7 2019, 03:57 PM

[quote name='orangecrate' date='Dec 7 2019, 01:51 PM' post='2768053']
[quote name='Superhawk996' post='2768030' date='Dec 7 2019, 12:56 PM']
[quote name='rhodyguy' post='2768007' date='Dec 7 2019, 02:58 PM']
Do the 1.7 case spigots and heads limit cyl/piston selection?
[/quote]

Only to the extent that 1.7L heads have smaller valves/ports and will limit airflow. Machine work can fix case/head fit.

I built my original car's engine from a 1.7L and at the time I couldn't afford 2.0L heads. I went 96mm flat top pistons, carbs, performance cam, and had the 1.7L heads fly cut to accomodate the 96mm cylinders. The engine never really achieved it's potential from the displacment bump due to the heads restricting flow and my running stock heat exchanger pipes (minus exchangers for weight reduction ). Upping the compression ratio helped. Better than what I had started with but certainly wasn't Raby HP

Per Mark Henry's note. Budget really needs to be known. I had sort of assumed that best plan would be to source fresh 2.0L AAP heads from HAM but those alone are $1700-1900 per pair (with aforementioned coatings) so may not exactly be "cheap" depending on OP's point of view

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 7 2019, 04:04 PM

There is a very good Porsche wrecking yard in PHX. I'm not against good used parts either. I'm not familiar with all displacement increases with new pistons, What does the 96mm give you? and where in the rpm range did your motor run out of steam due to the small heads?

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 7 2019, 04:06 PM

What are we talking $$$ wise here?

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 7 2019, 04:16 PM

Starting from almost scratch I'd say that parts list is easily over $5K.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 7 2019, 04:38 PM

96mm pistons with the 2.0L crank stroke of 71mm is a 2056 cc engine.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 7 2019, 04:49 PM

My rebuilt 1.7L 66m crank with 96mm pistons = 1910cc. I had Weber 40 IDF carbs, a Bosch 009 distributor (dont' get me started - it was the late 80's I was young and stupid ) and a performance "carb" cam (for which I don't remember the exact spec's) had a decent powerband from 2500 rpm - about 4500 rpm but then it seemed to run out of steam on it's way to 5500 rpm. Basically just making noise, building RPM's a bit slower, and not really "pulling" like it did in the power band.

I wish I had known more back then. I wouldn't do that engine again.

Posted by: thelogo Dec 8 2019, 02:32 PM

Building a expensive .aircooled .motor that need to be reliable .

Your way outta your league ....
Go build a dozen stock 1600cc that run and then maybe youll be ready for the big/4

But your heading for dissapointment.

Subaru motor is what you need ....
Cheap modern and much more diy friendly .

Relaible ? Jurys out on that one .

But try to spend the money not waste it

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 8 2019, 08:32 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 - just a 2.0L or 2056 instead?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 8 2019, 09:25 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21666

I'd be hesitant to call it a 2.0L It was really 1.9L of displacement trying to suck air though the smaller 1.7L valves and didn't have the benefit of reoriented spark plugs either.

It was the best I could manage when I was just out of the military and working on my 1st year of college. I wouldn't even have rebuilt it but the dreaded oil lamp flicker at idle suddenly happened one day and and it sort of turned into a "while it's apart" excercise but on a shoestring budget.

As metioned, it was a great learning experience but I wound't recommend it. Better than a stock 1.7L but it was probably just barely making 2.0L stock power if even that much. It went a boat load of miles though and was very reliable after the rebuild.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 9 2019, 07:16 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 - thanks for the response but I wasn’t very clear. Is your take away not to build from a 1.7 and start from a 2.0L case and crank instead? Make sure to use modified 1.8 or 2.9L heads?

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 9 2019, 08:11 AM

Been doin a little figuring and thinking . Based on some very rough estimates and the reliable (ha) butt dyno, I figure I need at least 100 hp to reach my goal. What I really need is torque, as we're talkin hillclimbing here. 70 mph up a 6% grade for 6 miles in the summer in AZ. That's just keepin up with traffic on I 17 North outta Phoenix. Is that possible with a well built (balanced piston, rods, flywheel) 1.7? Or am I overly optimistic. Or just ignorant?? How many of you have pulled that sort of grade in our little cars??

Posted by: 914forme Dec 9 2019, 08:41 AM

Have you checked into http://www.originalcustoms.com/2056.phpengine program.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=419 has dyno plots on his site for the two units. 1911 is a bit below 100HP, the 2056 is closer to 125hp.

That 2056 would make a huge difference, and I doubt that you can source the quality parts being used, and the level of service.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 9 2019, 09:32 AM

I think it’s worth the money to buy into a proven system vs spending the time and money to R & D your own.

Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 9 2019, 09:56 AM

Doing it right, chances are you will need machine work on what ever case you decide to use. The galley plugs, align bore and decking the case. It adds up.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 9 2019, 06:13 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21666

In my original build case, I feel that the 1.7L heads were the limiting factor. I would have loved to go to 2.0L heads or bigger valves but it just wasn't in my budget at the time so I made do with what I had just to get back on the road.

Remember, this was 1989, I was living in northern Michigan, and a 914 in that area was about as rare as could be. I had no access to easy parts and I had to work with what little my local machine shop could do which was cut the heads, a 3 angle valve job and to simply regrind my pitted valve ends. Guys in CA would have been swimming in parts.

I think most of this build advice has been well hashed out by the Legend himself. Nothing special about a 2.0L case.

http://914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/index.php?t141448.html

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 10 2019, 09:46 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 - thanks for following up and good info for people making decisions like the OP.

Posted by: VaccaRabite Dec 10 2019, 10:32 AM

When I did my motor (2056) it started as a 1.7L case and 1.7L heads, a 2.0 crank, Stock Mahle 2.0 cylinders that I had punched out to 96mm, KB flattop 96mm pistons. At the time, that was the proven recipe.

The case needed to have the registers opened up a little, and needed to have the registers flattened out (the case was a bus case, and the registers had started collapsing...) The heads needed significant work to flow the air I was sucking and pushing. I did not change spark locations.

When I built the engine the first time built did not last long. I flat out did not know what the hell I was doing and did a lot of stuff wrong. It ran way too hot and did not make enough oil pressure. Learn by doing I suppose. I tore the engine down before it did that part for me, and was able to reuse a lot of my parts.

When I rebuilt it I added a LOT of valve train goodies, and lowered my static CR from 9.2:1 to 8.7:1, spent a lot of time on my oiling system blueprinting the pump and adding an oil cooler under the rear trunk, and went from carbs to $Microsquirt$.

I'm still in the proving stage of my current engine, and have only taken it on runs about 2 hours long and within the radius of my AAA towing range. That said, I have yet to see a head temp above 360 - even when climbing long Appalachian hills in 5th gear at 80+mph. It just eats it up! It has maybe 2000 miles this summer (Odo on my car has never worked) and has worked really well in various conditions (including a 50 mile run in pouring rain that cropped up one day). My car as a whole has issues (mostly electrical in nature - I think the wipers are pulling WAY too much current when I have to use them) but the engine has run very very well.

My engine is also pushing 150hp at the crank, dyno proven. (127 at the wheels during initial tuning). That is well above average for a 2056 (the standard for a 2056 is 120 at the crank, and I'm making more then that at the wheels).

As to money... I bought the engine as a "running" 2056 for $2K. This engine was supposed to be a drop in my car and go deal. Yeah no... Had to totally rebuild it, but it had great parts. Ceramic lifters? Yes please!

Then (as I said) rebuilt it again a year later learning from my rookie mistakes. Lots of head work. $2K in heads alone from a local guy. $3K for the Microsquirt setup. $2K in tuning. Oh, and the actual parts I had to buy, lets call that $2K. So lets call it $11K (including tuning and all the other stuff - not just the engine) for a good 150hp T4 small bore engine that I never have to rev above 5K. The upside is that I spent this money in little chunks over several years and even got to drive the car a little between chunks as the engine evolved - but still.

If I was doing it again.... First off I'd buy NEW heads from Len. Its frustrating but I KNOW I'm leaving power on the table with my heads. And I know his heads will run longer then my old ones will. At the time I could not afford his work, and I HATED knowing that I was going to be running a compromise instead of the best heads I could get.

And if I was starting from scratch - I'd be looking long and hard at a subaru conversion OR make a stock engine with stock EFI and spend the money needed to get it right (which will still be $5K+ easy, with roughly 1/2 the power).

My engine has been a journey, and I've spent more time and money on the engine then I did restoring the entire rest of the car.

Zach

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 10 2019, 10:36 AM

Super helpful post Zach

Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 10 2019, 04:13 PM

Sorry, there is no waay I’d a Subie in 914. Just hot thru rebuilding and installing a 2.5l in my son’s Synchro vanagon and its really nice but but not in a 914 come on!
Len’s heads are the way to go for sure and its easy to get 120-130hp in a 2056 . Mine revs to 6500 rpms easy cruises all day at 100 mph.

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 10 2019, 08:48 PM

What are y'all's thoughts on a 1911 ?? I was lookin on Original Customs website. Turns out I guess I am cheap. I have a running 1.7 and like the idea of recycling parts. I also found a stock rebuilt 1.7 that has been align bored, pistons and rods balanced heads rebuilt Machine work done by Competition Eng. here in Phoenix and assembled by a seasoned VW tech for $1800. 0 miles. But I'm not sure I would be happy with the performance. Although it would be really nice to get the damn thing on the road again.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 10 2019, 09:14 PM

More so than most cars, a Porsche will consume all available money and then some if you let it. That is especially true if you chase additional performance above factory levels. Is that worth doing – that’s a highly personal decision.

I would offer up that I have a couple of these things and the one I find myself driving the most is actually a 1.7 L car with the factory fuel injection. It is not the fastest but it’s a sweet engine in an unmolested in honest Car that is well behaved and will still do everything I ask of it. Keep in mind that a 2 L won’t make the car stop, turn, handle transitions, write better or any of that stuff.


There’s something to be said for being able to work a car at speeds that won’t get you arrested.

Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 11 2019, 12:57 PM

Its going cost about the same to build a stock 1.7 vs a 2.0L. A Raby cammed 2056 is alittle more

Posted by: michael7810 Dec 12 2019, 09:20 AM

That 1911 you looked at is pretty much what I have including machine work by CE. I’ve put 30K miles on it including several trips thru Colorado mountains and a 4K drive to Georgia for Okteenerfest. I’m very happy with the performance. I have waaaaay more than $1800 in my engine. Your welcome to drive my car sometime to see how it runs. I’m in South Scottsdale.

Posted by: VaccaRabite Dec 12 2019, 11:36 AM

1911 can be a great engine making similar power to a 2056, slightly more peaky torque curve, slightly more rev happy.

If your bottom end is in great shape, you will still spend a lot of money on heads. And if you want power from non-stock EFI or carbs you will need a different cam (which means splitting the case).

On any engine you build, your biggest ticket item will be the heads. Buy the best you can afford. Don't go budget here. I'd be very wary of an $1800 1911 (I learned that lesson the hard way) as you can't buy the parts for that price, let alone the cost of building it. So you have to ask - what corners got cut (and if the case was align bored, lots of corners had to get cut to make selling at that price possible - unless the guy is taking a loss on the motor just to get it out of his shop.)

Stock or not, you will have a hard time getting a reliable new engine for under $5K. Sure, its possible, but not likely. Not any more.

Not much sucks more then buying a performance motor for ~$2K, and finding out you probably have to rebuild the whole thing after 15 minutes of run time and a sad compression test. My experience only, YMMV.

Zach

Posted by: ctc911ctc Dec 12 2019, 11:42 AM

Even though I have owned 5 of these, I am always thrown by the tapping!

Posted by: orangecrate Dec 28 2019, 06:45 PM

Yea . I decided I just want to get it running under it's own power. Which its doing now. But there is a knock. You can here it after she warms up . Rev it up good after its warmed up and it's down there under all the other clatter when you back off. So I bought the $1800 engine. It's a 1.7 not a performance motor. An $1800 gamble. We'll see how it turns out.

Posted by: Tdskip Dec 28 2019, 08:16 PM

Good luck and please keep us posted

Posted by: MM1 Nov 2 2020, 06:07 PM

Did you ever get that stock 1.7 running?

Posted by: rbzymek Nov 2 2020, 07:45 PM

So when my 1975 1.8L overheated and failed with low compression I was looking for a way out to get back on the road fairly quickly. I settled on a SCAT 2056 long block with a WEB 73 cam, 42x38 heads and 8.5 CR. The plugs are in the 1.8L position but that allowed me to re-use my engine tin. The car has been a joy to drive especially after I added a Derale oil cooler. The temperature gauge stays way on the left side of the safe zone.

I have SSHE's and a Triad muffler so it's probably around 120 HP. My objective was a reliable car and I probably have 3000 miles on it since the conversion with no drama. The L-Jet works great as I was able to tune it with the AFR meter I had installed on the Triad.

I know there are more exotic ways to get to a 2056. I get it, but it would have been my first engine build with a good chance of getting it wrong. (Or I could have spent another $4000 for all the trimmings.) I still have the 1.8L core in case I want to go back to stock.

The best part was that the long block only set me back $4670 plus $320 shipping to Michigan.




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