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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Door stay kit
Posted by: mepstein Dec 7 2019, 09:58 PM
Help me understand. The door stay kit I’m using comes with a pin but it’s too big for the hole. I could make the hole bigger but there’s still no groove for a clip. Stock pin on right
?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348
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Posted by: Krieger Dec 8 2019, 12:07 AM
Iirc the pins were made oversized because the monting holes on the bodies on some cars have ovaled due to wear. Also my memory says that the designer/pilot felt no clips were necessary unless the car was inverted. 
Posted by: mb911 Dec 8 2019, 05:48 AM
That explains why they fit so tight for me and ended up chipping fresh paint to install..
Posted by: roblav1 Dec 8 2019, 07:18 AM
Turn 'em on a lathe!
On mine, which I just installed last week, the plastic or nylon rollers were cracked. Bronze rollers from a hardware store pulley worked great. Cut off the sheave and drilled the holes to the right size.
Posted by: mepstein Dec 8 2019, 07:47 AM
Iirc the pins were made oversized because the monting holes on the bodies on some cars have ovaled due to wear. Also my memory says that the designer/pilot felt no clips were necessary unless the car was inverted.
But if the mounting holes on my car are not ovaled ....
Posted by: FlacaProductions Dec 8 2019, 08:42 AM
Check here (specifically posts 14 and 16):
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=216738&hl=
Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 9 2019, 02:00 AM
We initially made them to the OEM size. The complaint was they "clicked" when the doors opened and closed. Problem was that not everyone had the problem. So we made them slightly larger to eliminate the problem. They can be easily filed down to get a get a custom fit for your car.
It's the only way to get a perfect fit.
By the way the steering rack rebuild service we do has a similar issue. The shafts often are darkened with oxidation and pitting. We actually make our bushings with a smaller diameter and hone each one for a perfect fit (after we polish the shaft).
The idea is that the tolerance will be back to if not tighter than the factory, but the process was difficult enough that we don't sell the bushings stand alone as the process of educating and with different levels of capabilities we would have a more difficult time selling just the parts.
The parallel is that there are varying levels of degradation in the mount holes. Fortunately this is a pretty simple application.
Gravity makes the clip redundant, they are difficult enough to remove when you are trying.
Posted by: 914forme Dec 9 2019, 04:40 AM
So my plans to be buried in space in my 914-6 are out then. Just one more complicated issue, to keep me from being payload in a Virgin Galactic flight. Floating pins = space junk, just waiting to take out some billions of dollars communication satellite, that then will fall on my estate to cover bringing grief to my family, destroying what is left of my Finical empire. All $9.14 cents of it.
Lots of ways to solve the issue Mark, maybe a piece of paper with words on it describing why the pin is oversized and that gravity here on planet earth, makes the clip redundant. Maybe that would have saved a few people paint, or at least gave them understanding.
Thank you for the clarification btw, it does help. You (914Rubber) just like all our vendors are trying to fill a need for the community. Filling that need and providing great service is what pays the bills, but as you have most likely learned 10000000000s of times over, you can not make one decision with out it effecting other items. It is all about the combo as Jake Raby would say.
Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 9 2019, 10:29 AM
Yes we are trying to be a little more clear for our customers and sometimes it's been hard to wear all the hats. I do have a little more help now too.
And buy the way the relative gravity of the 2 masses may work for 0 G so possible that you would be ok. I don't think you will be getting out more than once.
Posted by: mepstein Dec 9 2019, 10:50 AM
I appreciate that 914rubber is making the parts. It would be good to know they differ from stock and the reason behind it, what mods or fitting might be needed.
For example, if I just purchased the aluminum lever but not the kit, the hole would be too big for a stock pin and be useless without the larger aftermarket pin.
Posted by: raynekat Dec 10 2019, 01:43 AM
So if I have to file the pin smaller to fit the hole on the car....then the pin will be too loose in the new aluminum lever.
I fail to see how this helps and is my exact situation.
It would be better if the lever had no holes so you could drill the exact size you need.
I'm so confused on this part. And I've spent some time for sure trying to get it to fit.
I'm down to trying to ream the hole out in the chassis receiver just slightly so the oversize pin fits.
And then drill my own hole in the pin to accept a cotter pin just like the factory did.
Not sure I'll go that route...
Instead, I may fab my own aluminum lever with better curvature that rides the wheels better.
Posted by: bbrock Dec 10 2019, 08:37 AM
I happened to glance at the door stay on my Nissan yesterday and noticed they used a split roll pin instead of a clevis. Made me wonder if that might not be a good solution to compensating for wear and variation in hole size.. 
Posted by: BeatNavy Dec 10 2019, 08:52 AM
I appreciate that 914rubber is making the parts. It would be good to know they differ from stock and the reason behind it, what mods or fitting might be needed.
For example, if I just purchased the aluminum lever but not the kit, the hole would be too big for a stock pin and be useless without the larger aftermarket pin.
If I had a constructive criticism for 914Rubber it would be: provide better and more consistent install documentation. For example, many of the seals require some trimming to fit. Even if there was a basic instruction included that said "Trim to fit" that would give you more confidence before you start slicing into the brand new part you just purchased.To be fair, Mark / Matty have done some excellent install threads here and posted some well done videos on the more complex stuff. Sometimes its the simple stuff that needs more explanation. On related note, I guess we (the customers) need to do a better job reviewing products on their website and submitting feedback to 914Rubber and to help others. I admit I've never done that, so that's on me.
All good
Posted by: raynekat Dec 10 2019, 11:18 AM
Mark of 914Rubber.
The only problem with this is that if you file the pins a bit smaller, then they are too small for your lever arms. You'll get clicking there just as well. Pins might fit tight in the chassis receivers, but will will loose in your arms.
Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 10 2019, 11:51 PM
Forgot we did change the arms. So perhaps This next run we just go back to the stock configuration, and make a mount for body?
Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 11 2019, 06:06 AM
Wow! Hard group to please on this topic.
Let's cut Mikey a little slack. It is hard to build parts for a new car and to take care of all the tolerancing stacks.
All OEM's use statistical software and CAD data to do it becuase just finding the worst case tolerance stacks (hole too big, pin too small) including variations in paint thickness, plating thickness, stamping variability, and pin diameter variability will gurantee that the pin is either too tight or too lose depending on which whay you do the stack analysis as best case, or worst case. The statistical software seeks to best fit the component tolerancing such that 99.99966% parts fit the first time. Note: that number still isn't perfection.
Trying to do the same for 45 year old cars with worn out parts. I wouldn't even want to try. The only way to perfection is to make your own parts to fit each car.
Retail is a tough gig.
Thanks Mikey915 for doing what you do!
Posted by: mepstein Dec 11 2019, 07:21 AM
I think it would be helpful to print in the part description on the website when you are making a part that’s different from oem and why.
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Dec 11 2019, 07:43 AM
They do one heck of a job trying to please so many.
I did like the suggestion that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845 made with the split-pin. I recall seeing the same thing used on many other cars.
Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 11 2019, 07:50 AM
Guys,
I do really appreciate the input. We made changes to our original exactly like stock design based on feedback. The information I'm getting is that we probably should not have made the changes.
We are actually looking at making an exact replica with the serrations, just like factory.
we are a few months away (like after summer), but yes sometimes we make changes that at the time seem to be an improvement.
The good news is that we do make the majority of the parts we sell, and can make the changes needed.
Posted by: mepstein Dec 11 2019, 08:33 AM
Guys,
I do really appreciate the input. We made changes to our original exactly like stock design based on feedback. The information I'm getting is that we probably should not have made the changes.
We are actually looking at making an exact replica with the serrations, just like factory.
we are a few months away (like after summer), but yes sometimes we make changes that at the time seem to be an improvement.
The good news is that we do make the majority of the parts we sell, and can make the changes needed.
Mark, Great. Thanks
Posted by: Bartlett 914 Dec 11 2019, 08:54 AM
I happened to glance at the door stay on my Nissan yesterday and noticed they used a split roll pin instead of a clevis. Made me wonder if that might not be a good solution to compensating for wear and variation in hole size..
In this case no. The pin needs to roll either in the car attachment or the stay itself. The problem happens because the clevis wears in time because of this movement
Posted by: ctc911ctc Dec 18 2019, 04:21 PM
All,
I bought this kit for both doors and installed the rollers and the arms in both doors.
As to the PINS,
The pins I have are oversized and fit into the two holes on the driver's side door nice and snug.
On the passenger side, they will not fit because the passenger door did not get the use that the driver's side received....logical.
However, the new pins are too large for the new arms.
So the old pin is the right size for the hole in the arm, but there is clicking in the driver's door. The passenger's door works ok, but the door had so little use (and as result wear) there was little difference after the hardware change.
After reading this thread I will keep the passenger side with the original pin and the driver's side I will open the hole on the arm a bit so I am super snug on the driver's side.
SUGGESTION: I believe that the door could use a bit more snap in the 1/2 open and full-open position. Perhaps the cam lobes on the arms could be cut a bit more severe?
Has anyone ever considered this modification?
Thank You
CTC911CTC
Posted by: Mikey914 Dec 18 2019, 05:12 PM
All,
I bought this kit for both doors and installed the rollers and the arms in both doors.
As to the PINS,
The pins I have are oversized and fit into the two holes on the driver's side door nice and snug.
On the passenger side, they will not fit because the passenger door did not get the use that the driver's side received....logical.
However, the new pins are too large for the new arms.
So the old pin is the right size for the hole in the arm, but there is clicking in the driver's door. The passenger's door works ok, but the door had so little use (and as result wear) there was little difference after the hardware change.
After reading this thread I will keep the passenger side with the original pin and the driver's side I will open the hole on the arm a bit so I am super snug on the driver's side.
SUGGESTION: I believe that the door could use a bit more snap in the 1/2 open and full-open position. Perhaps the cam lobes on the arms could be cut a bit more severe?
Has anyone ever considered this modification?
Thank You
CTC911CTC
I had cur the arms to match the factory curves.so unless these is a demand for a new curve I will probably leave that alone.
Mark
Posted by: oldschool Dec 18 2019, 11:07 PM
I've been hoping to get the repair kit.......SOON. 
Posted by: bbrock Jan 15 2020, 10:37 AM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348
Here's how I tamed the click and a suggestion for making these kits nearly universal for only a few extra pennies.
My chassis stay brackets were not wallowed and I had no interest in reaming them out - especially with fresh paint on the car. Instead, I picked up some 1/4" O.D. aluminum bushings at the local ACE and JB Welded them into the arm bore.
Then I drilled the bushing out to 15/64" (~6mm) and filed it flush to the arm. In hind sight, it would have been better to bore the arm out to 3/8" and using a matching O.D. bushing to leave more "meat" behind after drilling it out.
I couldn't source OEM size 6x16mm clevis pins locally but substituted 6mm tension pins like I proposed earlier. I actually think tension pins are an improvement over the clevis pins because they don't rotate in the bracket bore. All of the wear should occur on the arm bore and keep the chassis brackets from wallowing out. They are a bit of a pain to install but once they are in, I get smooth, click-free action from the door stays. 
There is more detail on this process http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=307290&view=findpost&p=2777615.
Here's what I think could make these stay kits more user friendly. Bore the arms out to 3/8" and supply two sets of pre-drilled bushings so users can install OEM or overbore as needed for their car. Also include two sets of pins (clevis, tension, or both) to match the bore sizes. With 3/8" O.D. bushings, there should be no need to epoxy the bushings into place as there would be enough wall thickness left to just pop them into the bore. It might even be an improvement by creating a double bearing surface for wear.
Those are my thoughts anyway.
Posted by: Mikey914 Jan 15 2020, 11:00 AM
Our current game plan is to go back to stock hole size. The parts will be just like OEM. Then you can buy a slightly oversized pin or a stock sized pin. The stock woill fit nicely into the stock arm. If you have a problem with the mount being oversized and clicking. You can use the oversize pin and drill the arm to match, But until we run out we will have the oversized arms. 2 different kits.
Posted by: bbrock Jan 15 2020, 11:05 AM
Our current game plan is to go back to stock hole size. The parts will be just like OEM. Then you can buy a slightly oversized pin or a stock sized pin. The stock woill fit nicely into the stock arm. If you have a problem with the mount being oversized and clicking. You can use the oversize pin and drill the arm to match, But until we run out we will have the oversized arms. 2 different kits.
I like it
Posted by: jfort Jan 15 2020, 01:47 PM
glad to see this thread. my kit is somewhere, never installed, because of the pin fit issue. I guess I'll try filing
Posted by: bbrock Jan 15 2020, 03:27 PM
glad to see this thread. my kit is somewhere, never installed, because of the pin fit issue. I guess I'll try filing
Filing alone won't get a good result. You need the holes of the brackets on the chassis to match the hole in the stay arm with a pin that fits snugly in all three. Otherwise, you wind up with play in the mechanism that causes loud and annoying clicks when you open and close the doors. If you want a quiet mechanism, you need to either file the oversized pins down and bush the arm to reduce the bore size or ream the bracket holes out to match the oversized pins. Reducing the arm bore is not hard or expensive to do. I think the aluminum bushings I used cost 23 cents each retail.
Posted by: 914lover17 Sep 7 2021, 09:34 PM
Our current game plan is to go back to stock hole size. The parts will be just like OEM. Then you can buy a slightly oversized pin or a stock sized pin. The stock woill fit nicely into the stock arm. If you have a problem with the mount being oversized and clicking. You can use the oversize pin and drill the arm to match, But until we run out we will have the oversized arms. 2 different kits.
What size pins are in the current kit?
https://914rubber.com/door-stay-rebuild-kit-for-porsche-2021
Posted by: Front yard mechanic Sep 8 2021, 06:34 AM
Just use bailing wire and end the bitching 
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