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Posted by: Bmw635 Feb 19 2020, 09:18 PM

Just bought a 70 914 1.7L FI ,all stock, last ran in 1997. Planning on getting a battery to turn it over and see where it’s at, suck out the fuel in tank, replace fuel filter, fuel hose, change oil, may be do compression test, install new spark plugs. Any idea on where/what else I should do/look at to get it running again?

I am versed with most BMW and 928 but still learning this 914. I want to get it running then sell as I don’t have room to restore or keep it for now. TIA.

Peter

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 19 2020, 09:35 PM

I never understood why people try to "turn over" an engine that hasn't run for 10/20/30 years. You have no idea what it looks like in there but you think it's a good idea to "turn it over" anyways?

That's a sure way to cause lots of damage to the internals.

Just treat the engine as a core, drop it (easy to do), go through it, clean it up and once everything checks out, fire her up ...


PS:

Posted by: Ansbacher Feb 19 2020, 09:46 PM

"may be do compression test with new spark plugs"

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Ansbacher

Posted by: Mikey914 Feb 19 2020, 10:09 PM

I get it. Your excighted by the find. Its possible it could run and yes that would be cool, but theres a checklist of what you shold do before going there. Will be easier tk get a good look while its out.

1st replace all fuel hoses.
2nd check intale for mouse nests, also poke around the enginge tin.
3rd drain the oil, its garbage by now.
Next its an issue of if your rings arr stuck or theres debris in the combustion chamber.
If you can turn by hand easily good if not take it apart.

Some soak with seafoam, let sit overnight. Drain, and replace with fresh oil and check compression.
If you have got this far odds are good it will fire up. You will want to replace vacuume hoses while its out.

Im sure others may have a few other pointers.

Posted by: bkrantz Feb 19 2020, 10:20 PM

If you want to sell it, don't bother seeing if it will start. Your best buyers are 914 fans, who know enough about cars that have sat for many years (and would have concerns about fuel leaks from old hoses and fires). You might gently see if the engine turns over--most buyers will want to know that.

More critical for value is the shape of the body and interior. Learn about the typical rust locations, and do a body survey--and get photos.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Feb 19 2020, 10:48 PM

It's going to need the whole FI system gone thru. Plus removing the tin to clean out the rats nest and crap from the cooling fins. Plus ALL the fuel lines. And pull the gas tank for new hoses and a screen and clean that out.

20 years is a long time on a 50 year old car.

Like has been said, the condition of the chassis is the more important factor as it's expensive to properly fix rust. A 1.7L is practically worthless and easy to replace.

Posted by: Bmw635 Feb 19 2020, 10:58 PM

Yip, excited to find a good car. I’d keep the car but with 2 businesses, a Land Cruiser for DD, and a supercharged E38 and a 928, wife is not happy that it will take me another 10 yrs to finish as I am trying to finish the 928 engine reseal after 4 yrs. Had a 74 914 1.8L from 97-2000 so I had some exposure.

Engine turns over in gears when pushing the car so it’s not seized. Car sat in garage for 20yrs so no rats/rabbits nest. Battery tray has some rust but still solid, no rear trunk rust, front trunk has slight rust under spare tire and around the hood seal by the pop up headlight. Ideal for restoration.

Looks like I should drain and remove tank to replace filter, fuel hoses, check pump in the front. Drain oil, check compression, replace fuel hoses, spark plugs in the bay. I want to keep it but want to keep the marriage too so I might take it to storage and deal with it later.


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Posted by: Bmw635 Feb 19 2020, 11:03 PM

More pics.

What's the purist opinion about replacing the FI with dual carbs or refresh the FI? I guess cost to rebuild the FI might stop this if it does not start.

As for oil weight, what’s the crowd here running? I used 15-50W Dino in my LC, 0-40W synthetic in my E38, 10-50W Dino in 928. Thoughts are thicker oil leaves oil coat lingers help protect old high revvving engine and proven in couple 928 race engine.


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Posted by: ndfrigi Feb 19 2020, 11:11 PM

Hi Fellow OC 914 owner!

Congratulations on your new 914! Looks clean inside and out. Previous owner did a good job storing it.

Posted by: Larmo63 Feb 19 2020, 11:22 PM

That car looks NICE. Congratulations.

Posted by: Mikey914 Feb 19 2020, 11:26 PM

From a value stand point - FI adds value as they run well and are stock. That and unless you change the cam, it's difficult to not have to tweek with it. You run rich if it's a hot day or you go up in elevation. Running too rich will cause plug fouling, but you don't want to be too lean. It's not too bad, but it bothers me on my 2.0 and I'm changing it back.
Many new parts are available for the FI, so you should be able to keep it stock.

If all goes well you won't need anything.
WHATEVER YOU DO..... DON'T DRIVE IT.[
You'll be hooked and will have a difficult time selling it.

Posted by: Bmw635 Feb 19 2020, 11:27 PM

Thank you for the warm welcome. Yea, car stayed with 2 owners in same family since new before I broke the cycle so it was well kept.

Any local 914 shop that you know of? I think some guy named Glen but don’t remember whether he’s in Orange or some where in LA that restore and repair 914? TIA.

Posted by: ndfrigi Feb 20 2020, 11:03 AM

Are you close to Sunset Beach? You can try PCH Garage in Sunset Beach. Some members here use this shop. I’m sure Jim Hoyland will also recommend this shop.

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Feb 20 2020, 11:12 AM

I think that there was a thread on this just this week

Posted by: RestoReese Feb 23 2020, 10:09 PM

I bought a 1971 914 that had been sitting for 10 years in a garage in So. Cal. Beside to pull the spark plugs and get some Fogging lubricant to spray inside the cylinders. all of the oil has drained to the bottom and you want to ensure there is good lubricant before turning over. The metal on metal can seriously damage the cylinder walls if you don't..

The fogging spray is cheap and pulling the plugs only takes 15 minutes. Worth every penny and the time.

Posted by: PlaysWithCars Feb 24 2020, 11:17 PM

Or squirt a little Marvel Mystery oil in there. It will help loosen up the rings if they are gummy and stuck. Challenge is getting it all around the cylinder and not just in a puddle at the bottom. The fogging oil delivery system takes care of this for you.

Posted by: EdwardBlume Feb 25 2020, 04:32 AM

Nice early car! What's month and year build date? Add it to the member's VINs.

Posted by: Bmw635 Feb 29 2020, 10:43 PM

Is there a decent June 70 914 wiring diagram available as I searched the net and most are difficult to read/zoom.

Cleaned out fuel line and tank, crank engine but no spark. Removed point and check gap finally got spark. No fuel pressure and foind blown fuse, replaced fuse but pump still not working.

Posted by: theer Mar 1 2020, 07:19 AM

Fuel pump could be seized- likely after so long.

I’ve had luck spraying carb cleaner in there to dissolve old gas residue and bench testing by running alternately forward and backward to loosen it up. Don’t let it run too long without fuel running through it, though.

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 1 2020, 12:21 PM

The fuel came out of the filter and before injectors were ok, not gelled or gummy. You mean the gears could be seized? Thanks.

Posted by: porschetub Mar 1 2020, 12:41 PM

Yes pump will be gummed up with old fuel,remove it and clean it , best way is to block the delivery side stand it on end and put solvent into the suction side,leave to soak.
This has worked for me once but some will not free up,good luck.

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Mar 2 2020, 10:32 AM

nice looking car! my car sat a few years before I bought it, first thing I did was pull the tank and clean, replaced all lines and vac lines and put new pump in.
fired right up but I had vac leaks from intakes and plenum seal, so just get all new stuff now -
oil wise you want 20-50 high zinc oil, so Penn Grade 1(Brad Penn) oil , or Vr1 Valvoline 20-50 motorcycle oil, Porsche classic sells and recommnends the 20-w50 as well.

Posted by: Tdskip Mar 2 2020, 08:31 PM

How are you getting on? There are several of us in OC.

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 4 2020, 11:40 PM

Update. Got the 3 port pump installed and running but no fuel pressure. Could air in the body needed to bleed or prime to build fuel pressure? Any chance the impeller is toast?

Wired 12v direct to pump on bench and there’s air pressure while running.

Getting new 2 port pump on Sat and plan to install that at same location as the 3 port to run the engine but I can’t find info on plugging the 3rd line. Any ideas? Thanks.

Peter

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 8 2020, 02:54 PM

Got 3 port pump to run with air from outlet but no fuel pressure when installed. Fuel gurgling in the filter like it want to flow, 12v to pump but still no fuel flow. Got all 3 hoses connect to correct R,S,D on pump. Any suggestions? TIA.

Posted by: injunmort Mar 8 2020, 04:42 PM

wiring dia. : prosperosgarage.com best tool for old blind guy, dealing with 50 year old wiring. $26.00 tool.

Posted by: ndfrigi Mar 8 2020, 04:55 PM

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 8 2020, 09:14 PM

Confirming the pic is showing correct hookup of 3 port , unless I missed other clue? Thanks.

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 15 2020, 08:46 PM

After 2 days of trouble shooting, found a 5” fuel hose from the pump collapsed inside causing no flow. Replaced all new hose and car fires up but won’t stay idle and running too rich.

Disconnected the cold start injector, CHT sensor, and tapping the MPS while starting, but still have the smoky gas exhaust fume. Checked the vacuum on MPS-it’s holding. 4 spark plugs are soaked in gas. Fuel pressure running 30psi, holding at 18 psi-is this normal? Any other suggestions? Thanks.

Peter

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 16 2020, 10:04 PM

What is this brass circled in red and could it cause no idle, rich condition ? Does this air filter housing need to be installed to run/ test engine?

I am still researching to understand vacuum system, vacuum hose. Is this hose circled in blue a vacuum hose?

Does the CHT sensor have to be plug-in to test engine as a friend familiar with VW said it can be unplug ? There was a small potentiometer wired into the engine harness and the CHT wire-the previous mechanic said used to enrich the fuel to cool engine when it’s running hot.

I can’t understand why the plugs are soaked causing no start engine after trying to run 1min. Throttle have to be pampered to keep engine running. Running in out of ideas to trouble shoot before throwing parts at it. TIA.

Peter


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Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 17 2020, 04:56 PM

Anybody in OC familiar with the mechanicals willing to show me a few things on your car since I am running out of ideas to fix the flooding? May have to get it tow to shop since I am at dead end. Thanks.

Peter

Posted by: BeatNavy Mar 17 2020, 05:20 PM

Your friend is incorrect. Car won't run with CHT unplugged. It will cause a way too rich condition and quickly flood the engine. Other things that result in flooding or way over rich condition:

1. Manifold Pressure Sensor (MPS) that holds no vacuum.
2. Leaking or broken injectors
3. Fuel pressure much too high
4. Leaking cold start valve

My money is on the CHT and/or MPS.

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 17 2020, 05:47 PM

The friend was a VW bug mechanic before working for city as diesel mechanic so I thought he might know.

Is there a way to test the CHT directly instead of getting 2.5k ohm on pin 11 and 23 from the ECU plug?

1-MPS hold pressure with slow leak but I understand it should not flood engine. Voltmeter measured the pins on MPS within these range : #7 & # 15 (should be about 90 ohms) and between #8 & #10 (should be about 350 ohms).

2- Leaking injectors would loose pressure in rail? Fuel pressure at 30psi when engine running, drop to 18psi and holding when off. All 4 plugs are equally wet so I doubt all 4 injectors fail same time?

3- Fuel pressure is 30psi , drop to 18psi when shut off-within spec?

4-Cold start injector unplugged so it should not leak, flow fuel?

The wire from harness to CHT was hacked so I'll have to clean up and test. Specs say it should measure 2k-3k ohm or 2500 ohm at 68F ?

Feel so frustrated with this old design. Built custom stroker for my BMW 635, supercharged my 98 BMW 740, revamping my 928 S4 and do all my own maintenance on all BMW, Land Cruiser but this 914 is defeating me. Thanks.

Peter

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 17 2020, 08:33 PM

Update so I can just move on. Tested again 30min ago and here's the results:

CHT to ground :3200 ohm at 58F. Specs is 2000-3000ohm , 2500 ohm at 68F. Is this acceptable?

MPS hold vacuum with NO leak. Pin 7 and 15 : 92 ohms. Pin 8 and 10: 355 ohms.

Could bad grounding cause these problems? Tried grounding on various area of body and engine and ohm meter read inconsistently but solid reading at (-) battery terminal. Thanks.

Posted by: BeatNavy Mar 18 2020, 05:58 AM

So you've probably eliminated fuel pressure and MPS as culprits, and the CHT itself looks like it's generally within spec. I would recommend examining the wire harness from the CHT (the CHT connection itself to the wiring harness) to the ECU. Those get brittle over time and can crack, giving you an open circuit. The sensor itself may be fine, but if it's open to the ECU it will have the same effect. I guess check the ECU harness plug for damage as well, particularly on pin 23.

The only other things I can think of are a blocked return fuel line, but that would cause your fuel pressure to spike (which it's not doing), and a bad ECU (which is fairly rare). ECU is a swap out part. You should be able to get one for 1.7L cheap if you put a WTB in the classifieds.

Part number reference (and other troubleshooting) if you don't already have this link: https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/DJetParts.htm

Bad grounds usually result in no fuel (injectors won't fire, pump won't run, etc.).

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 18 2020, 10:11 AM

Thanks Rob for the Paul Anders link, saw that but good review as I've read so many D-jet info.

Got continuity from #23 of ECU connector to CHT plug by #3.

Fuel flow from tank to the 2 hoses to the pump. All new fuel hose from filter to pump throughout engine are new, got rid of the 2 plastic hoses near the pump as well. Old hoses left under tank and plastic line under tunnel.

I'll try locate an ECU to swap. I know failure is rare, but what's the typical problem? The newer Bosch Motoronic failure is the solder joint eliminate from the PCB so resolve is the fix.

Haven't pull injector rail to check flow rate, leak but leaking injectors can't flood engine like my situation?

Haven't check, replace all rubber intake, vaccum line but that should not flood engine? I read that it runs rich instead of lean but shouldn't flood engine?

There are a few other sensors/ valves to check in various info but lookslike those apply to the newer 1.8L or 2L ? The one under the throttle in 1.7L is only affecting idle, not fuel mixture? Thanks.

Peter

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 18 2020, 10:17 AM

did you first get it running WELL on spray gas?

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 18 2020, 10:23 AM

You mean spray carb into the throttle? No. We got it running on fuel pump with new gas in tank for 1-2 min but the flood kill the plugs so we had to clean the plugs to restart.

Would that tell anything since compression is good? Thanks.

Peter

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 21 2020, 05:33 PM

After tapping the MPS, spray De-Oxit into the ECU and connector, checking all the vaccum, intake connections, adjust idle speed on the throttle body, the car fire up and running ok.

Idle at 500rpm so I tried to increase the idle screw on the body but it won't go up but does go down. May be leaking vaccum somewhere?

Thanks everyone for the input. On to next phase.

Posted by: BeatNavy Mar 21 2020, 05:56 PM

Nice job.

Vacuum leak is usually associated with high or surging idle. But if the air bleed adjustment screw isn't really having an effect then the idle mixture may be too lean. Don't really put too much effort adjusting that until the engine is at temp, however. Cold idle and warm idle can be different beasts.

Have you checked dwell/timing?

Posted by: BeatNavy Mar 21 2020, 06:08 PM

Also, you're AAR may not be opening properly. It could be frozen shut, not allowing enough air for cold engine.

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 21 2020, 09:13 PM

From what I read, stuck open AAR has normal idle on cold engine, high idle on warm engine?

My engine idle low at 500 rpm on cold engine and same after 15min warm up, idle screw adjustment? Will check timing. Thanks.

Posted by: BeatNavy Mar 22 2020, 05:36 AM

The AAR should be open on a cold engine to allow more air in. It's like a controlled vacuum leak when the engine needs it. When engine is cold, and AAR fully open, the idle may be roughly 1500 +/- a couple hundred rpm. Over a roughly 5 to 8 minute timeframe the AAR closes gradually until it's completely closed. It closes due to both an electrical lead on a heater element / resistor inside the AAR body and from actual heat in the engine bay.

AAR's get cruddy over time and they often freeze open, shut, or partially in between. Soaking them in solvent may help, but in some cases they need to be carefully pried open for some more robust cleaning and refurb.

Posted by: sholman5 Mar 22 2020, 10:13 AM

Did you check the CHT resistance when the car was warmed up. After warm up reading should be 100 ohms or less. If no change cht is bad. It sends a signal to the ecu. As the the resistance lowers so does the fuel delivery. Cold 2k ohms or better, warm 100 ohms or less hot.

Posted by: Bmw635 Mar 22 2020, 11:14 AM

Thanks for the details. It kind of run lean so I measured CHT at 90 ohms after running for 15 min and searched the web for reference data as my neighbor thinks the CHT fail when hot. I was searching for ways to replace the $15 CHT so this will save me the PIA of replacing it.

Waiting to borrow the timing gun to check the dwell but at least it’s running 95% good for now.

Posted by: Bmw635 Apr 4 2020, 04:23 PM

Still didn't have a chance to check timing yet but when engine gets hot ,it flooded and die out. The hotter engine get, the quicker it choked. If I let it sit till cold then engine ran fine till hot again. Symptom of failing CHT?

Measured 2900 ohm cold and 137 ohm hot engine. Thanks.

Posted by: BeatNavy Apr 4 2020, 05:06 PM

In my experience, yes, the CHT needs to be replaced. I'd either go ahead and replace it and/or remove it and test out of the car. For a 1.7L, I believe it's supposed to be roughly 3K ohms at 60 degrees and less than 200 ohms when hot. Make sure to check the wiring from sensor to ECU as well. Look for breaks, kinks, etc.

Posted by: Bmw635 Apr 8 2020, 04:38 PM

Took advantage of the summer weather, break in the rain, to change out the CHT with the 13mm deep socket and small locking plier to turn the socket. Took sometime to orient things but once the process lock down, it took 10 min to finish. I pushed the wires inside the socket and superglue the washer in place.

However no change in performance. It would pull load up to less than 3k rpm 95% of the time no problem. If I kept the load to go beyond 3k rpm then it would choked and die. Restart and it runs fine till beyond 3k rpm then choked again. If I run load less than 3k rpm then it would run for 1/2hr. 95% of the time, after restart it would rev up to 4-5k rpm no problem.

During that 1/2hr drive, the 5% condition would choked at any rpm under load. Some time it would rev up to 5k no problem but die under load at any rpm. Sometime it would die at rev more than 1k with no load. One guarantee is that after every choke and die, if I restart engine it would run normal until past 3k then die.

Really weird symptoms. Any other suggestions beside check timing/dwell as I am still waiting to borrow timing gun and I don't think this problem is it.

Posted by: BeatNavy Apr 8 2020, 05:51 PM

Ok, so you can obviously eliminate CHT from the variables.

Symptoms are weird. Fuel starvation now maybe? You had a collapsed fuel line earlier. I wonder if there's a kink in a line somewhere else, or maybe the sock filter in the tank is fouled? Dirty or misaligned trigger points? Admittedly I'm grasping here without further info.

Is your sense, based on any other info and your instincts, that this is fuel delivery related (too little, too much) or ignition / timing? Certainly do dwell and timing to eliminate that as a possibility. Are the plugs soaked after it dies?

Posted by: windforfun Apr 8 2020, 05:55 PM

Hang in there. You'll figure it out.

Posted by: Bmw635 Apr 8 2020, 06:03 PM

It might sound like fuel starvation. I didn't know about fuel sock in the tank-will look into it. All hoses from the 2 plastics hoses in the engine bay are new. Fuel in tank is below E but light is not on so I don't know if that's an issue.

The choke condition is more prevalent with hot engine. If engine is cold, I think it runs better till hot. I'll test again later when engine cold again to see if I can duplicate .

Yes, the plugs were soaked couple weeks ago when it happened and it would not restart until we clean out the plug. However,the car restart right away all the time today after driving ,idling for 1-2 hrs so I don't think the plugs are soaked this time, otherwise it would not restart right away. Thanks.

It might sound like electrical as it will run fine after restart. Points are new as there was a new spare in the car that I installed. I don't think timing or ignition as it would affect same condtion consistently, not weird like this. Could bad DME / ECU affect above 3k rpm?

Enjoying the sun while troubleshooting the car.


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Posted by: Bmw635 Apr 10 2020, 07:17 PM

Ding, ding, ding, ding! BeatNavy is the winner!

Finally got break in weather to checkout the fuel delivery. Filter was clog, gas was brown so I blew compressed air back into the tank for bubbles to stir the gas, loosen stuff in the tank then let drain out 1/2 gal until it looks clear then button up. Drive up to 4500 rpm no problem, ran like bat out of hell. Stoke !

Next is adjust parking brake, check defroster blower not on, and heater fan can't turn off. Thanks.

Posted by: BeatNavy Apr 11 2020, 05:35 AM

Excellent!

Depending on your plans, I'd clean out the whole fuel system (tank, sock filter, lines, and maybe send injectors out for service).

Enjoy!

Posted by: Bmw635 Apr 11 2020, 03:32 PM

Got parking brake cable adjusted.

The blower initially turn on/off first week after I bought the car. Couple weeks later the blower run continously regardless on/off so I cut the green wire at the blower. It still ran yesterday when I taped the wires back then remove tape. Getting to fix the red lever today and I can hear relay click on/of but fan doesn't run. Check continuity for pin 86 back to lever switch, brown wire on blower to ground, but I can't trace green wire from blower back to.......... I don't see a fuse and can't find ETM to see where this green wire goes.

Any idea? Thanks.

Posted by: Bmw635 Apr 14 2020, 06:56 PM

Still stump about previously running fan all the time and not running now- I cut the connection at the fan as I was working on other issues until I get to it now.

Here's what I confirmed today for the no blower sympton. Went through these 2 sequences with answers in CAP below referenced from this thread. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/index.php?t247768.html


1. Did you CLEAN the ground connection at the lever? That's worth doing so you know you do have a good ground (if you did not when you were in there).YES, SAND AND DE-OXIT.

2. With ignition on and heater lever in the up position (all the way), use a voltmeter or test light and see if you have power at the green lead on the blower motor (ground the test light/voltmeter to the battery negative post).NO 12V. If you do, then I believe the ground lever, the relay board, the relay, and the other connections are good. RELAY GOOD, LEVER GOOD. Check the actual blower motor ground brown wire to its grounding point (I'm not sure if mine is stock or not -- it's been grounded to a dedicated ground point off the block -- it's effective, but it doesn't look original to me). CONTINUITY FROM FAN TO BATTERY.

3. Most likely, you do not. So your issue is probably somewhere in one of the connections on the relay board or back at the heater lever. Without the ignition on, test continuity from relay pin (the hole) 87 to connector pin 11 on the 14 pin connector at the front of the relay board-NO CONTINUITY. (if I'm reading the diagram correctly). If you have any doubts about the continuity clean the connection points at the relay, at the 14 pin connector, AND at the 12 pin connector on the rear right side of the board - pins 11 and 10 are the operative ones here I think. CLEAN AND DE-OXIT.

4. Are you actually getting a good ground to the relay? With ignition on and the heater lever in the up position, do you have 12v at pin 87 of the relay?YES, RELAY CLICKING. If not, the issue is on the relay board to the 14 pin connector or from there to the grounding point at the lever.
-----------
1. Bad ground at lever or broken wire (the green/white one) to the relay board. NO, CHECKED CONTINUITY, RELAY CLICK WHEN MOVE RED LEVER OR PLUG IN RELAY.

2. Bad/dirty connections on the relay board (at the 14 pin connector or the 12 pin connector). NO, CLEAN AND DE-OXIT.

3. Broken fuse or bad fuse connection (as Spoke pointed out) on the relay board. NO, CHECKED CONTINUITY AND POWER.

4. Bad relay 55 or bad relay connections (e.g., pins 30, 86, 87 etc.).NO, SWAPPED RELAY, CHECKED CONTINUITY.

5. Bad relay board (traces bad) HOW?

6. Broken or bad green wire from relay board to fan. CONTINUITY TO PIN 85 ON RELAY BOARD. GREEN WIRE 3 PLUG CONTINUITY TO FAN GREEN WIRE .

DID I MISS SOMETHING? TIA.