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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ V6/V8 Conversions & Starters
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 08:52 AM
I'm doing a V6 Buick conversion with adapters, etc. from Kennedy Engineered Products. I also bought an IMI High Torque starter from them. The only thing is, it won't clear the trunk floor so I can put it in. 
The starter is IMI's #101, which is what Kennedy sent me knowing, I believe, that it was going into a 914. Anyone else run into this problem? Or, what starter did you end up using for your V6 or V8 conversion.
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 08:54 AM
Here's a picture of the starter on the engine. It is tall and the upper most part won't clear the trunk floor pan.
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Posted by: jimkelly Jul 6 2005, 09:15 AM
Any pics of floorpan sheet metal work?
Why v6 versus v8 - mostly because it fits better?
I guess a v6 is a bit less expensive?
Jim
Posted by: marks914 Jul 6 2005, 09:17 AM
You should have plenty of room, looks just like my setup.
Mark
Posted by: lapuwali Jul 6 2005, 09:31 AM
Do a search here. I seem to remember a thread where someone discussed repositioning that starter relative to the mount, re-clocking it.
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 09:57 AM
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jul 6 2005, 07:31 AM) |
| Do a search here. I seem to remember a thread where someone discussed repositioning that starter relative to the mount, re-clocking it. |
James,
Thank you for the advice. I now see that the front end of the starter that bolts to the tranny has multiple holes to reposition it. Something like that didn't even occur to me. Some days I'm a lot dumber than others, anyone else have that problem?
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 10:01 AM
| QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jul 6 2005, 07:15 AM) |
| Any pics of floorpan sheet metal work? Why v6 versus v8 - mostly because it fits better? I guess a v6 is a bit less expensive? Jim |
I chose a V6 because it is a much easier conversion, no electric water pumps to deal with, no banging on the bulkhead that separates the driving compartment from the engine bay, or whacking holes in the rear trunk, distributor is in front and easy to get to, etc. And a V6 can make plenty of power depending on how you build it.
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Posted by: ematulac Jul 6 2005, 10:30 AM
Don,
Your car is looking great! 
Why don't you do an official build thread, so you have all of your progress in one thread? I'd love to be able to see your conversion from start to finish.
Regards,
Ed
Posted by: nine14cats Jul 6 2005, 12:13 PM
Don,
I'm going through the same process with my V8 conversion right now.
Talking with Renegade they have found the following:
1. Not all trunk floor clearances are created equal 
2. Re-clock the indexing of the starter (the issue is that there may be a clearance issue with your exhaust routing. Mike at RH says this is a problem depending upon what setup you use for exhaust).
3. RH uses a 4x4 block of wood and "dimples" the trunk pan for clearancing.
I'm going to dry fit the whole assembly and decide where to 
Should be fun!
Bill P.
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 12:19 PM
| QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jul 6 2005, 10:13 AM) |
| Don, I'm going through the same process with my V8 conversion right now. Talking with Renegade they have found the following: 1. Not all trunk floor clearances are created equal 2. Re-clock the indexing of the starter (the issue is that there may be a clearance issue with your exhaust routing. Mike at RH says this is a problem depending upon what setup you use for exhaust). 3. RH uses a 4x4 block of wood and "dimples" the trunk pan for clearancing. I'm going to dry fit the whole assembly and decide where to Should be fun! Bill P. |
Bill,
When I get home from work tonight I'll try repositioning the starter to trans mating flange on the starter and then try again to get it in place. If that doesn't work I've got plenty of new 4x4, just hate to do that though.
Thank you for the tips from Renegade, just don't tell them you passed the info on to a guy doing a Buick V6 conversion.
For some reason they don't like them.Don
Posted by: nine14cats Jul 6 2005, 12:28 PM
Hi Don,
Give the repositioning a shot and tell me how that goes. I'm leaning in that direction rather than putting a "dimple" in my pan.
I don't know why most folks are against a V6. My brother's first car was a Chevy Vega with the notorious blown head gasket on the 4 cylinder motor. We were able to get a Buick 231 V6 and cleaned it up (home grown porting work, my Grandfather had his own tractor/trailor truck repair shop).
With a 4 speed, the torque in the Vega was great!....I thought the car was a blast to drive....
I do know that Rod Simpson said that the torque pulses out of a V6 actually create more issues for the 901 in the "violence" of the crank throw. Rod told me that 225 ft/lbs of torque in a V6 was like 300 ft/lbs in a V8.
Maybe someone will chime in with the physics behind it.
Personally, I think the 6 looks pretty fuching bad ass in your engine bay!
Bill P.
Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 6 2005, 12:31 PM
| QUOTE (dbledsoe @ Jul 6 2005, 10:19 AM) | ||
Bill, When I get home from work tonight I'll try repositioning the starter to trans mating flange on the starter and then try again to get it in place. If that doesn't work I've got plenty of new 4x4, just hate to do that though. Thank you for the tips from Renegade, just don't tell them you passed the info on to a guy doing a Buick V6 conversion. For some reason they don't like them.Don |
From Scott when asked about firewall clearance:
| QUOTE |
| These are hand build cars. We have seen the fire wall differ at least 1.5 inches...and I am not kidding. You will never be able to calculate that. |
Old V6's vibrated so that thinking still pervades RH...
Posted by: 914GT Jul 6 2005, 01:34 PM
On the trunk floor/starter clearance issue - how do you know it's not that your engine mount bar is setting your engine up too high? With V8s I've never seen an IMI starter interfere, and that's with the transaxle set back 1.5" further.
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 01:37 PM
| QUOTE (Neo914 @ Jul 6 2005, 10:31 AM) |
| Old V6's vibrated so that thinking still pervades RH... |
Felix,
Yep, that's their story. I emailed them early on in my project asking about a front motor mount for the Buick V6. They emailed back saying they don't do that conversion anymore. I emailed back saying, "Fine, but wouldn't you still have the jig to build one forward mount?" That's when they started in with the horror stories about how badly they vibrated, even to the extent they were shattering transmissions. What? Give me a break! And
I told them I'll take my chances just build me a front mount. They proceeded to tell me what a fool I am and I said 
but I still want a motor mount, so I guess I'll look for other options. Guess they never heard of the even fire engines and balancing.
Posted by: bondo Jul 6 2005, 01:40 PM
| QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jul 6 2005, 11:28 AM) |
| Maybe someone will chime in with the physics behind it. |
Here's the way I think of it. A V8 fires 4 times per revolution, and a V6 only 3. So to get the same average torque, you have to have more energy with each firing with a 6. It's like trying to kick a soda can 100 feet without denting it. Eaiser to do in 4 kicks than 3. I'm guessing the flywheel negates this to some degree though.
Posted by: 914GT Jul 6 2005, 01:55 PM
If this theory were true, then a 4 cylinder would be worse yet. And that's what most stock 914s have. I think the bad reputation is due to the GM V6 and poor balancing, in contrast to inline or opposing 6 configurations which are smooth and well balanced.
Posted by: bondo Jul 6 2005, 02:10 PM
| QUOTE (914GT @ Jul 6 2005, 12:55 PM) |
| If this theory were true, then a 4 cylinder would be worse yet. And that's what most stock 914s have. I think the bad reputation is due to the GM V6 and poor balancing, in contrast to inline or opposing 6 configurations which are smooth and well balanced. |
This is where the big 4 guys need to chime in.. at what torque level does a 4 break a 901?
Posted by: John2kx Jul 6 2005, 06:35 PM
Here's a pic of two IMI starters purchased from the same place. They are clocked different but both worked in my v8 conversion.
I'd try to reclock.
John
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Posted by: John2kx Jul 6 2005, 06:42 PM
This is about the worse configuration you can have but still gives about 1/4" clearance with the v8. The transaxle is dropped 3/4" and moved back 1-1/2" for the 8. Maybe the 3/4" drop is helping here........but then again, I'm not familar with what is done as far as moving the transaxle in a v6.
John
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Posted by: 914GT Jul 6 2005, 07:09 PM
Mine looks the same as yours John. About 1/4" clearance.
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Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 08:57 PM
| QUOTE (914GT @ Jul 6 2005, 11:55 AM) |
| If this theory were true, then a 4 cylinder would be worse yet. And that's what most stock 914s have. I think the bad reputation is due to the GM V6 and poor balancing, in contrast to inline or opposing 6 configurations which are smooth and well balanced. |
with 914GT. GN Buicks and turbo Buicks seem to make a
load of horsepower , all based on the same block/crank/piston configuration I'm running (10 second quarter mile runs with a V6 in a so called, midsize car is impressive). They don't explode tranys due to vibration, and they've been on the roads for years cranking out gobs of horsepower. And while I'm sure that RH has their horror stories of some sort, I consider their claims nonsense and pure , likely due to a failure to understand odd fire vs. even fire and a lack of understanding of internal and external balance requirements. Besides, they can sell more to the V8 junkies, which I have no doubt they are in business to do (can't fault them for that, since that's what they're in the business for i.e., making money).
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 6 2005, 09:11 PM
| QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jul 6 2005, 10:28 AM) |
| Hi Don, Give the repositioning a shot and tell me how that goes. I'm leaning in that direction rather than putting a "dimple" in my pan. I don't know why most folks are against a V6. My brother's first car was a Chevy Vega with the notorious blown head gasket on the 4 cylinder motor. We were able to get a Buick 231 V6 and cleaned it up (home grown porting work, my Grandfather had his own tractor/trailor truck repair shop). With a 4 speed, the torque in the Vega was great!....I thought the car was a blast to drive.... I do know that Rod Simpson said that the torque pulses out of a V6 actually create more issues for the 901 in the "violence" of the crank throw. Rod told me that 225 ft/lbs of torque in a V6 was like 300 ft/lbs in a V8. Maybe someone will chime in with the physics behind it. Personally, I think the 6 looks pretty fuching bad ass in your engine bay! Bill P. |
Bill,
I repositioned the starter. There seems to be a choice of stock configuration (as shown in my photo) and a 90 degrees left configuration of that. Rotating the starter 90 degrees left on the starter mounting flange cured my problem. In that configuration there is tons of room when the starter is bolted up. Only concern is tight quarters to get a wrench on the lower starter bolt (a socket would not work). That's no big deal other than I prefer to torque stuff to proper specs but don't have the tools to do so when an open end wrench is the only thing that works.
But hey, it's in there with no dimpling of the trunk underpan.
A photo tomorrow evening.
Best,
Don
Posted by: nine14cats Jul 7 2005, 10:42 AM
Thanks Don!
Keep up the great work....I'm starting on JLO's conversion tomorrow.
I can't wait....
Bill P.
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 7 2005, 01:26 PM
| QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jul 7 2005, 08:42 AM) |
| Thanks Don! Keep up the great work....I'm starting on JLO's conversion tomorrow. I can't wait.... Bill P. |
Bill,
I hope you'll keep us posted on the JLO conversion as it goes.
Here's a picture of my starter in place after changing the orientation.
Don
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Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 7 2005, 01:39 PM
| QUOTE (John2kx @ Jul 6 2005, 04:42 PM) |
| This is about the worse configuration you can have but still gives about 1/4" clearance with the v8. The transaxle is dropped 3/4" and moved back 1-1/2" for the 8. Maybe the 3/4" drop is helping here........but then again, I'm not familar with what is done as far as moving the transaxle in a v6. John |
John,
That 3/4" drop would have been sufficient for the starter in the upright configuration to clear. But my V6, and all the V6 Buick conversions I'm aware of, mount the tranny in its original location i.e., no setback and no down set. Changing the starter orientation cured my problem.
Posted by: Otmar Jul 7 2005, 04:50 PM
I just got my 101 starter from KEP today, and was worrying that I would have to move coolant pipes on my 915/tdi/Vanagon conversion due to just this reason. Now you've shown me the solution.
Thanks guys! You Rock! 
Posted by: dbledsoe Jul 7 2005, 07:26 PM
| QUOTE (Otmar @ Jul 7 2005, 02:50 PM) |
| I just got my 101 starter from KEP today, and was worrying that I would have to move coolant pipes on my 915/tdi/Vanagon conversion due to just this reason. Now you've shown me the solution. :trophy: Thanks guys! You Rock! :rockin: |
Otmar,
Yes, ain't this board great! It's saved me a lot of time and money on both my 914's. Guess I better contribute some dough to show my appreciation but please, Dear Lord, tell me there is another way besides Pay Pal! I don't do Pay Pal anymore, and won't again.
Show us some pics of your Vanagon conversion, I'm especially interested becauses that was one of the first conversions I thought of doing. I've still got another conversion to do on my 76 914.
Don
Posted by: Otmar Jul 7 2005, 09:29 PM
| QUOTE (dbledsoe @ Jul 7 2005, 06:26 PM) |
| Show us some pics of your Vanagon conversion, I'm especially interested becauses that was one of the first conversions I thought of doing. I've still got another conversion to do on my 76 914. Don |
Hi Don,
The base Stretch site is here:
http://www.evcl.com/vw/
and I'm collecting pictures of the current work here: http://www.evcl.com/vw/tdi/
They are big and unedited for now.
Time for me to figure out how to make the front tranny mount before it's too late to
Posted by: redshift Jul 7 2005, 09:37 PM
LMAO Otmar!
M
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