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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ WOT: Need woodworking advice
Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 7 2005, 02:18 PM
I figure I ask questions about all of life's aspects here...... why not try this one?
I'm building my "dream" guitar..... this isn't some half-assed attempt at "fixin up" some old beater..... all the parts I've bought for it are brand new, or mint condition if I had to purchase old stuff.
This includes all gold hardware.... Floyd Rose Lo-Pro trem, Gotoh tuners, string tree, pickup rings, knobs, switches, etc. Plus the body, the neck, etc..... So far, I'm up to nearly $600 in this thing..... just in parts alone.
Its an Ibanez RG550 replica.... I'm stuffing it with 3 (yes, THREE) EMG Humbuckers... and even creating custom gold cavity cover plates out of reflective acrylic plexiglass for the back.
ANYWAY....... My question is........ I bought the body from a Luthier in Brazil its a "marupa" body with a 1/4 inch thick "Angico" top..... this guy was really good, but then he disappeared off the planet, so I have no way to contact him. Apparently, he covers his guitar bodies with a "nitrocelulosic base" for shipping protection purposes.
I'm ready to start routing, sanding, and building....... how the hell do I get the wood clear without sanding too much? I don't want to sand too deep if I don't have to. Is there a certain chemical I can use? I want to basically "strip" the wood clean, but not damage the wood, because I plan on staining/poly, etc.
take a look at what I bought if it will help:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7320437309&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
Posted by: JB 914 Jul 7 2005, 02:22 PM
http://www.woodcraft.com/
i would check if they have one close by. or you could call them. i've used them before and they were very helpful.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 7 2005, 02:24 PM
if it helps, "nitrocellulose" is good ol' lacquer.
lacquer thinner should remove it, but i have no idea what it would do to the wood (over and above what the solvent in the lacquer has already done.)
i'd probably just sand it...
if you were in California, you'd have to go to another state for decent lacquer thinner anyway...
Posted by: TimT Jul 7 2005, 02:25 PM
Id sand it off, I cant imagine any type of holding finish will have been applied to thickly.
who knows what chemical strippers may do to the grain of the wood, or to the adhesive he used to laminate the wood together.
Posted by: bondo Jul 7 2005, 02:34 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Jul 7 2005, 01:24 PM) |
| if it helps, "nitrocellulose" is good ol' lacquer. |
I thought nitrocellulose was gunpowder?!?!
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jul 7 2005, 02:37 PM
Brake cleaner gets off Gorilla glue.
Thats all I know. 
Nitrocellulose IS gun powder.
Posted by: bjorn jacobson Jul 7 2005, 02:43 PM
As long as the nitro is clear you can use automotive paint stripper and not have a problem with grain discoloration. Any opaque finishes will leave color in the grain.
Don't leave the stripper on any longer than you need, you'll se it working almost immediately. If the finish is extremely thin it should take only minutes for stripper to disolve nitro laquer. After the finish is removed use 800 grit sanding lightly WITH THE GRAIN to clean up the residuals. Going against the grain will leave sanding marks that will show up later in the finish.
Good Luck,
BJ
PM if you have any other questions.
Posted by: rick 918-S Jul 7 2005, 03:25 PM
My advise.. box up the whole werks and ship it to miles. 
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jul 7 2005, 03:27 PM
| QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Jul 7 2005, 03:37 PM) |
| Brake cleaner gets off Gorilla glue. Thats all I know. Nitrocellulose IS gun powder. |
I know an easy way to clean it off...
dunno about saving the wood though 
Posted by: redshift Jul 7 2005, 03:36 PM
Why are you stripping off a sealer? are you planning to stain it?
Aircraft stripper, or a paste furniture stripper. It gets everything out of the pores, if you are staining.
What is your goal? Color?
M
Posted by: goose2 Jul 7 2005, 03:47 PM
Nitrocellulose is plain old organic lacquer. Try rubbing with WHITE rag soaked in lacquer thinner, turning the rag often to keep a fresh surface. Try not to flood any glue joints any more than necessary. The coating should disolve pretty easily if not too thick. A light sanding with 320 grit first just to scuff the surface will help the thinner cut the lacquer. Chemical strippers are risky for wood color and adhesives. If the rag isn't aggressive enough, try a fine scotchbrite pad soaked in lacquer thinner. If you're still not getting anywhere, you can soften the coating with the thinner and use a cabinetmaker's scraper very carefully with the grain. Practice with the scraper first on some scrap if you've not used one before.
Is there a reason you need to remove the coating? With a light sanding, nitrocell laq. can make a good sealer for laquer topcoats. I could go on for hours about this, it's been a big part of my business for 20 years...restored old furniture, boats, cameras, instruments. PM me if I can offer more help.
Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 7 2005, 04:01 PM
Thanks for all the help folks..
To answer a few questions.......
Yes.. the coat is VERY light...... but the body really doesn't need much sanding, which is the reason I wanted to chemically remove it.
The reason?? Yes, I do plan on using a custom colored stain. Not paint, but stain. Then, covering it in as many coats of poly as I can.. till I get the glossiness I want
Posted by: Dead Air Jul 7 2005, 05:16 PM
| QUOTE (ninefourteener @ Jul 7 2005, 02:01 PM) |
| ...stain. Then, covering it in as many coats of poly as I can.. till I get the glossiness I want |
[QUOTE]
How about 15 coats of laquer?
Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 7 2005, 05:26 PM
| QUOTE (Dave Eddy @ Jul 7 2005, 07:16 PM) | ||
[QUOTE] How about 15 coats of laquer? |
Single part laquer will crack, in time, if you put too many layers on.
Posted by: carr914 Jul 7 2005, 05:45 PM
Follow Goose2's advice on removal. I'll comment on the stain & poly. I work for ZAR. We've been a premium stain and the 1st company to manufactor polys in the US. We make 25 premixed colors of stain & also a tint base to make any other color. As far as polys go our we make antique flat, satin, semi-gloss and gloss in both oil & water base. Our semi registers higher on a meter than most others gloss, so our gloss is like a mirror. The one down side to any poly is that it can come away with a plastic look especially in a gloss finish. I would recommend our Wipe-on Semi Gloss Tung Oil. It's easier to apply and gives a warmer varnish look. You can hit with steel wool between coats and apply the number of coats to your desire. It's durable and hard enough for your needs. It's a poly with Tung Oil vs just Tung Oil which you would need to reapply. For a dealer near you go to www.ugl.com
T.C.
Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 08:19 AM
Hello again folks!!
My project is well underway. I've finally gotten all the parts I need to complete this project, so I spent all day routing out the guitar the way I wanted it.
I attached the neck, so it actually looks like a guitar.. finally
I sanded it, steel wooled it, and ran ovber the whole thing with a blowtorch, because I like that "distressed" look. Then, applied a pre-stain treatment to it, then I stained the body, and the headstock with a "Provincial" finish.
I ordered an Ibanez logo online, and once it comes in, I'll attach it, and poly the entire thing.
BTW.... it looks INCREDIBLE!!!! I'm really happy with it!!
MY QUESTION: I've heard a couple times that pure poly can crack after time. But I really want the finish to be a SUPER-HIGH gloss, and appear super thick. What should I use? What brand?
Also, I know I need to steel wool between coats, but what should I use to apply the poly (Or whatever I use)?? A brush? A foam Brush? A foam roller? I've heard all 3, so any advice would help
Thanks all!!!
Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 22 2005, 08:33 AM
cigar box, yardstick, and assorted rubber bands.
k
Posted by: TimT Jul 22 2005, 09:07 AM
you will get the best finish if you spray it
Posted by: tdgray Jul 22 2005, 09:19 AM
I can see it now.
NEW THREAD 
Help I got WD-40 on my brand new guitar... How can I get it off. 
Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 09:23 AM
| QUOTE (TimT @ Jul 22 2005, 07:07 AM) |
| you will get the best finish if you spray it |
Spray it?? Can you spray Poly?
What kind of spray "stuff" should I use?? What brand??
The guitar isn't finished... but I can post pics this evening of what I've done so far
Posted by: TimT Jul 22 2005, 10:16 AM
sure you can spray poly. If you dont have spray equipment, Im sure you could get a suitable finish out of a aerosol can.
Posted by: carr914 Jul 22 2005, 10:45 AM
Don't spray the poly. I sell polys and you will get a better final product with a brush on product. My product ZAR is self leveling and can be applied with a foam brush or a very good quality china bristle brush. Do Not use a roller with a poly as it introduces bubbles into the poly. If you a brush or wipe-on product, DO NOT SHAKE the can. This introduces bubbles. Stir the product thoughly before and during your application. Steel wool between coats with oil based finish.Spray polys will be diluted versions of the original formula in order to get them to spray and will not have the Solids content that you need for durability. Also the tips on most sprays will be condusive to spitting droplets and there is more potential for the poly to sag and to have bubbles. We just upgraded to a better tip but I have not used it yet.Or you can use ZAR Wipe-On Finish with Tung Oil. The wipe-on Tung Oil will be far and away the easiest. It also has a richer look. I also want to comment on the distressing that you are doing and how that relates to your finish. Any distressing will show up more as gloss level goes up. Go to www.ugl.com for more info and a dealer locator.
T.C.
Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 12:09 PM
Thanks for all the help folks... I'm going to stick with the canned poly... although the spray sounds easy... I think the cammed will appear to be "thicker"
As for the wipe-on poly/tung mix....... does it come out glass-like.... or just "shiny"??
I'm really looking for a coat that "looks" like it's 3 inches thick... thats what I want.
Pics as requested.... Please keep in mind, this is the first time I've EVER done any woodworking at all.... ever. Fiirst time I've ever touched a router, or stain, or even sanded anything wood..... So go easy, please.. I'm pretty proud of it. If you notice, I torched the headstock, and stained it to match the body to the best of my ability.... I'm actually pretty happy with it
(I just left myself open for a world of bashing huh?--LOL)
This is what I started with (front)
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Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 12:09 PM
this is the back before I started:
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Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 12:10 PM
now:
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Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 12:10 PM
now
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Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 12:11 PM
now
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Posted by: redshift Jul 22 2005, 12:22 PM
I use 4 finishes.
Vintage thin; Lacquer over sanding sealer.. the sealer depth is measured in microns, 4 coats of lacquer, when cured, and leveled, measures around 10 mic. Polishes to a very high gloss.
French polish; methylated spirit varnish, lac flakes, disolved in denatured alcohol. Ancient finish technique... look it up. Worthwhile. Sore arms.
Oil varnish; I have a mix that I do by eye. It's base is spar varnish.
Gunstock finish; oh man... would look GREAT on your instrument... adds to what you already have.. and is so east to apply, and repair.
Poly? NOT ON MY GUITARS BUDDY!
M
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jul 22 2005, 12:36 PM
just send it to Mile... he'll make sure it's right... he don't have a damn thing else to do anyway...
just don't let the goat chew it man!
Posted by: goose2 Jul 22 2005, 12:57 PM
I used to use poly to build up very thick glossy finishes on Jaguar dashboards. Two problems I encountered: it's not perfectly transparent when thick (hazy) and yellows a bit (new products may be better), and it tends to develop crazing or cracks over time with variations in temp and humidity. I'd think hard about using poly if you want a thick glossy coating. My choice would be a "long oil" spar varnish....brush, sand, brush, sand, brush, sand......etc. Thin and spray last coat. There's probably a half-dozen ways to get the look you want and everyone has their favorite. A two part conversion varnish would be nice, and very durable, but needs good spray equipment and is very toxic. You might want to pose your question on a guitar builder's message board.
Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 01:30 PM
| QUOTE (redshift @ Jul 22 2005, 10:22 AM) |
| Gunstock finish; oh man... would look GREAT on your instrument... adds to what you already have.. and is so east to apply, and repair. |
What is that?? What does it consist of doing? Where do I buy it??
Posted by: redshift Jul 22 2005, 01:34 PM
Tru-Oil
Look at this: http://www.gunshop.com/phiatt3.htm
Here is an example of the package, you can get it at most gun shops, around here:
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3918
Whatever you decide on, I can give you some pointers for an easy job.
M
Posted by: ninefourteener Jul 22 2005, 01:50 PM
That sounds pretty interesting, I'mworried about the fact that I've already stained it though. It says not to do that.
I'm intersted though... sounds to me like you just apply, steel wool, apply, steel wool, etc.
It also says that the finish can be satin or matte..... I want a gloss finish though.
Input??
Posted by: redshift Jul 22 2005, 02:01 PM
It isn't a high-gloss finish, that is for sure.
I usually wipe on 3-4 thick coats, then steel wool, and polish. It has a... God forbid... luxurious 'touch'.
STORM! GOTTA GO!
M
Posted by: TimT Jul 22 2005, 06:33 PM
| QUOTE |
| I have a stratocaster with a whammy bar |
-Frank Zappa- RIP
Looks nice!!
Posted by: jasons Jul 23 2005, 09:41 AM
| QUOTE (TimT @ Jul 22 2005, 04:33 PM) | ||
-Frank Zappa- RIP Looks nice!! |
"And an amp in the back that said Fender Champ"
Man I love Zappa quotes, I could wing em around all day long!
BTW this is a good site for guitar re-finishing info and supplies....
http://home.flash.net/~guitars/index.html
Posted by: ninefourteener Aug 2 2005, 09:13 PM
Just thought I'd post an update:
I decided to go with a provencial stain...... used 0000 steel wool to smooth.
I found a "wipe-on" polyeurothane.... its applied by hand,now with a brush. It came out pretty good I think..... especially for a beginner.
I steel wooled after each of the NINE coats.
Then.... I used an automotive polish to clean it up.
BTW.. those marks are fingerprints on the body.... not flaws in the finish.
Whattaya think so far?? ALMOST DONE!!!! Just need pickups!!
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Posted by: ninefourteener Aug 2 2005, 09:13 PM
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Posted by: ninefourteener Aug 2 2005, 09:14 PM
last one
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Posted by: ben1440 Aug 2 2005, 10:10 PM
Sorry if this is an addition to what someone has already said, but you can use something called MEK for stripping nitro finishes without damaging the wood(i dont know what it stands for off the top of my head). I work in custom archtop shop where we have had to use the stuff on nitro based finishes. be very very careful with that stuff and your skin. USE OUTSIDE! Anyways....good luck.
--Ben
Posted by: redshift Aug 3 2005, 03:34 AM
Methyl-Ethyl-Keytone, sticks to your brain, and eats bindings. I use MEK to make binding fillers, and to mix plastics.
Ben, who do you work for? My current project is a '37 Gibson F-12 mandolin conversion, to long neck, and recarve plates to '23 Loar specs. I hate drawing inlay sets, and cutting MOP nuts.
Miles
Posted by: ben1440 Aug 3 2005, 09:26 AM
| QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 3 2005, 01:34 AM) |
| Methyl-Ethyl-Keytone, sticks to your brain, and eats bindings. I use MEK to make binding fillers, and to mix plastics. Ben, who do you work for? My current project is a '37 Gibson F-12 mandolin conversion, to long neck, and recarve plates to '23 Loar specs. I hate drawing inlay sets, and cutting MOP nuts. Miles |
I work for http://ribbecke.com We do handmade archtops and testadura's (335's but better
) We are also now doing a hybrid achtop (top is half archtop and half steel string). www.ribbeckehalfling.com is for our semi-production model we just started doing. Is it just me or is there some correlation between 914 people and guitar makers?
--Ben
Posted by: ninefourteener Aug 3 2005, 12:36 PM
Well Damn...... I'm feelin kinda lowly here---LOL
And here I was thinking I accomplished something--LOL
DAMN those guitars are nice!!!
Ribbecke??? SWEET!!
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