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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ What intake? SBC. Turbo, Hilborn, both?

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2005, 03:39 PM

Im running through ebay like normal.. and im getting more and more idea's....

user posted image
Hilborn setup

user posted image
Turbo setup I'll bid on.

Next post for hilborn turbo setup.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2005, 03:40 PM

Turbo hilborn setup... Black is intake runners, blue is turbo cold side, orange is turbo hot side, red is exhaust...

crude... but thats my idea. hilborn has those bolt on venturies.... you get my point.. hehe


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Posted by: tat2dphreak Jul 8 2005, 03:47 PM

the Hilborn would certainly LOOK cool, but I think the normal EFI turbo would be simpler.

that hilborn setup would look awesome on a N/A engine though

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 8 2005, 06:14 PM

Magnacharger, forget turbos! MikeP's ride is gonna be crazy fast, no lag, no babying the tranny! Chatted with Lawrence of Ultima and Chris at Bauer amongst Elmers $200k 914 NASCAR V8 yesterday. happy11.gif Will post pics soon...

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 8 2005, 06:23 PM

turbo plumbing might get interesting... (no intercooler correct?)

love the hillborn look....

me, id go with 4 weber 48 IDA's wub.gif

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 9 2005, 09:05 AM

Aaron... running 4 webber ida's would almost quadruple my cost. (I'd have to buy it new... no buying used...) And I'd have to pay MORE for fuel injection.

Mike didnt say he was running a magnacharger!!!
Hmm.. thats pretty cool! I still love turbo's though...

Im gona watch this turbo auction.... if it goes cheap enough, i'll buy the turbo setup. If anything dad will use it on his el camino that he will buy.


Sad that no one shared my idea's for a twin turbo Hilborn injection monster fabrication project.... I think it could be awardable....

Oh well
Thanks!
Andrew

Posted by: street legal go-kart Jul 9 2005, 09:43 AM

Come on guys!

The 914 does not need a blown or turbod sbc.
When we were racing the roundyround cars we got 550 hp+ out of off the shelf crate engines that would last thru 2 seasons of severe abuse.
The worst failure we ever had was a broken piston that occured because of a clutch failure and the resultant overev.
The alchohol/hilborn injected sprint car motor was rated at 710 rear wheel hp!
That engine would last about 9-10 events before having to be freshened.
I currently have a Penscke/spec. 302 from a z/28 in my 17' flatbottom and it will run at 5500 rpm all day without a hicup. Stock from GM with a cast iron GM semi highrise and a 750 Holly, 345hp/318tq.
If thats not enough for a teener I don' know what is.
Plus the tuning problems inherent in any turbo or blown settup.
We have raced a bunch of different stuff including blown alcholol drag hydros and a ton of different roundyround stuff and MY choice for tunability, drivability and reliability is the Hilborn settup.

Just my 2cts.
[ I don't have an opinion on this do I?] w00t.gif

I'm going driving!

JT

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 9 2005, 11:39 AM

Nope, the 914 doesnt need more...

All I REALLY need is some heads...

that would get me 350hp...

BUUUT.... I'd love to run around 500hp.. and I love turbo's... they just sound sick, the power delivery feels awesome (continuous increase in acceleration)

I'll do some more pricing...

If I can get 400hp from my engine without putting more compression, then I'll be happy, for a while. Then i'll want to put a 200 shot or nos or something because some blown chevelle beat me... lol

Andrew

Posted by: Mueller Jul 9 2005, 12:20 PM

I like the idea of the EFI and Turbo or Hilborn and EFI......


trying to add turbos and use the Hilborn is a waste of the Hilborns, you really won't be able to see them (huge reason to use them in the 1st place), and no real benifit from the Hilborns that you couldn't get from using an FI manifold such as from a TPI equipped car.

Also with the turbo/Hilborns, you'll want a crossover pipe between the banks to help equilize the charge pressure.

The cleanest install would be 2 turbos with a setup that looks similar to the old Banks turbo systems smile.gif





Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Jul 9 2005, 12:22 PM

Andyrew I've bid on 2 different Martin turbo systems that were not as complete as this one and both of them went for over $1000. These were top of the line kits in their day

Bob

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 9 2005, 02:38 PM

Well, the turbo system currently is at 510 with 2 days... 500 was my, i'll buy it, no loss to me. price.

Im guessing it will go over 1k... theres 9 bidders currently.. and maybe 15 more like me... lol

Bob, your free to bid on it.. .lol

Mike, As always, your words are true.

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 9 2005, 03:04 PM

what's the ID #, you're not counting us snipers? happy11.gif

Yeah it was financially dangerous talking to the guys a Bauer. MikeP has the "Elmer" syndrome... laugh.gif


Posted by: Andyrew Jul 9 2005, 03:24 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7984895629&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

I didnt want to post it because I wanted it... but realistically its going higher than what I want to pay...

I think it would be sick matched with a throttle body fuel injection system.. you know... one with 4 fuel injectors... eh... 500 bucks and I can build one.

If I had the....

sniping ability!

and permision from dad... lol


Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Jul 9 2005, 04:12 PM

The Martin system does some interesting things that other systems don't do.
Have you got this one figured out??

Its above what I would want to pay for it to use in a 914. With the setup stock the turbo would be completly out of the engine bay.

Bob

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 12:23 AM

The turbo would be out of the engine bay?

I think it may poke out maybe 3 inches... but nothing some sheet metal fixing can do... Check out the attached.


btw.. what does the martin systems do? I dont get it yet....

Andrew

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 12:24 AM

pic....


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Posted by: street legal go-kart Jul 10 2005, 09:33 AM

Andrew,
Did you ever find a casting # on your block?
You got me started on the small block thing again and I was rooting around out in the parts bin. I have a bunch of stuff you might be able to use if you have the right block #.
I also talked to a armenian gentleman from our area who shall remain nameless,
summit part#nal-12496769 w/a hiborn setup good for about 455 hp on his dyno.
I think he said $4000.00 without the injection.
Also a little less pricey summit #nal-24502609 , same setup for intake good for about 395 hp.Think this one w/out intake about $3500.00.
I know this gentleman very well , he has had engines at Indy and Lemans ect,ect.
Very low key , he builds for Ford, Penske and people he likes. No bs kind of guy , the #'s are the #'s.
At 79 years old still in the shop 7-5 m-f.
He taught me all I know about hi/po v 8's and a few things about other engines a well. Very talented with VW water pumpers getting about 300hp out of a scirroco engine on alchohol.
Also he just pm'ed me , both of those summit #'s are for GM crate motors and can be purchased direct at a discount if you know someone at a dealer or a Good wrench certified mech.
The second engine is a ZZ4 , 10:1 aluminum heads , roller cam, hei dist, forged crank ect.
Joe [ops] said he knows a bracket drag racer who has about 125 passes on one with o failures. Pretty killer for under 4 grand.

Back to the shop.

JT

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 09:49 AM

cast number was 3970010

4k eh?

Maybe in 4 years when I need an engine rebuild... but I have only 1k or less miles on my engine.

I aint getting a new one. lol.

Let me know what you have in your parts bin, I would definately be interested!

So your saying I can buy an engine with a Hilborn induction setup from summit? Or when you said without the intake, you ment hilborn.... lol

THanks for your info! I'll be saving this thread.

Andrew

Posted by: turbo914v8 Jul 10 2005, 12:11 PM

Don’t be fooled. That turbo system on e-bay will only net you around 500 hp, it’s not worth the money. This type of turbo system is called a draw through system and will not accept an intercooler essential to running any type of boost above 5psi safely for any length of time. I am currently running a twin turbo FI system in my converted 914 v8, and yes it is mad horsepower at over 1000HP and 1000 ft torque. I can run this set up all day with out problems. The trick is to use adequate intercoolers. At a mere 12 psi, the lowest setting on my waste gate, my motor puts out over 700 hp. More than enough power to put any in their place. I can generate well over 30 psi with the current turbo system, but at 12 psi the motor and turbo system is not working hard at all so I just keep the boost set low at 12 psi fun all day. Don’t think that you will be able to fit a complete turbo\intercooler system in a 914 and keep is stealth. Some of it will protrude somewhere, depending on the setup you choose. I say turbo all the way. You can build a really great turbo system with used parts and make a crazy turbo powered v8 very easily. Infact you could go to your local junkyard and probably find most of what you need. Don’t be discouraged. I had everybody telling me that I would never fit everything in the small 914. Boy were they wrong.

Posted by: Dr. Roger Jul 10 2005, 12:22 PM

I'm a numbers guy... and Turbo Paul has some valid points.


This graph appeared in "Battle of the Boost", Hot Rod Magazine in the August 2003 issue. Turbo systems are the clear choice if you are looking to generate usable horsepower between 2500 and 5000 rpm.

http://www.ststurbo.com/turbo_vs__supercharger

=-)

Roger

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 02:17 PM

Paul, I dont understand, why do you say that there can not be an intercooler in place between the turbo and the intake? If the piping was cut and made round, then everyting can be made simply.

Are you saying that any draw through system will not effectively accept an intercooler?

This does not make sense to me.

I am also considering this system and fabricating all of my own piping, including an intercooler.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33742&item=7985716319&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Andrew


Posted by: Dr. Roger Jul 10 2005, 03:47 PM

So Andy,
Your thinking something like this drawing.

Intercoler on the right. Right?

user posted image

And the Ebay pic of that little black plastic tube with red tube ends is the current non intercooled intake piece? That would be a project. But possible if U ask me. =-)

I say, "Do it. They will come" LOL

Heck I still want to create a real V8 cooling system and keep the entire front trunk.... Brain still hurts from last think session...

Posted by: turbo914v8 Jul 10 2005, 03:49 PM

QUOTE
Paul, I dont understand, why do you say that there can not be an intercooler in place between the turbo and the intake? If the piping was cut and made round, then everyting can be made simply.

Are you saying that any draw through system will not effectively accept an intercooler?



Good day Andrew,

Any system can be mad to work in just about any configuration you choose, but it will take considerable time, effort and $$$. That being said, trust me, do your self a favor and stay away from the draw through systems. I am no expert, but here is what I know. In the draw through systems both the air and fuel are mixed and sent through the turbo where they are both pressurized and then sent to the engine for combustion. Problems with the draw through system are numerous. My number one problem is that the addition of an intercooler leads to an almost impossible control of the air fuel mixture through these types of systems. The intercoolers are designed to cool air not fuel as a result the fuel tends to fall out of the air mixture and puddle inside the intercooler. You have no control over the air fuel mixture when random puddles from inside the intercooler enter the combustion chamber. Another problem is lag. The draw through systems is responsible for turbo charged engines getting a bad rep for lag. Again because both the air and fuel travel through the turbo the fuel atomized in the air moves slower and contributes to lag. There are numerous other problems associated with the draw through system, but my main problems center around the ones aforementioned.

The draw through systems are by far cheaper than the blow through system. Its just logistics. Fewer parts, less boost, less power output. But my question has always been why let the system limit you. With a complete blow through system the sky is the limit. Want more power turn up the boost, not enough boost change the turbo. I am not afraid to say it. "I am greedy". I want the power. If something close to 500 HP is good enough for you then by all means build yourself a draw through turbo system. But I would have to ask why when you can easily buy a create motor that puts out 500 hp normally aspirated, so why bother with the hassles of turbo charging. Want to exceed 500 hp, believe me you will. Then a blow through system is for you. I have built blow through systems from junk on a shoestring budget trust me they all kick ass for what they cost. I have nothing to gain weather you go draw through or blow through, but I just thought I would share with you and hopefully save you some of the time, money and aggravation that I had to endure in these past few years building turbo charged cars.

Trust me I am crazy, I even turbo charged my shifter go cart. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 03:54 PM

BTW heres a clearer pic of the turbo pics..


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 04:11 PM

Paul, Thank you for your insite.

I do agree with you now that fuel could be trapped inside the intercooler.

But intercoolers are not the only way to cool down the air.

My father uses water/methonol injection on his 944 turbo race car, It doesnt provide much more hp, but it does alow him to use more boost safely.

If I find that 500 hp is not enough, It will be for other reasons than engine... lol

I could build a super monster turbo system, but I dont have money for that, I do have a little money to tinker around with a turbo system.

I have 3 reasons for a turbo
1. The sound
2. the linear power delivery
3. Because its different, and I can.

I think I'll buy this turbo system, then put it on in a couple months as I collect fuel injection parts. This will go in with the 915 trani.

I'll baby it like I did with the 901 for a while.

Roger.. yup. I believe thats a honda civic engine pictured though.


THanks all!

Posted by: turbo914v8 Jul 10 2005, 04:31 PM

Ok, here is my last ditch effort to bring you over to the blow through side. E-bay item
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7985905664&category=33742

or item number 7985905664

How is that for cheep. Now all you need is any v8 FI system and piping. Can you weld? welder.gif

New parts too. biggrin.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7985905664&category=33742

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 04:46 PM

I was having a hard time figuring out how I was going to install a fuel injection system without it being the throttle body type, then you throw on this intake plumbing... Gaa!!!!

Im a learner welder...

Wastgate, turbo, bov. Granted its all new... but 450. What I need.
Custom header to accept turbo,
Plate to bolt ehaust side of turbo to
Plate to bolt intake side of turbo to.
Some kind of FI with a throttle body, that fits in the 914 engine bay
Intercooler if needed


When in actuality, I can buy the action for the turbo setup... REsell all the martin baker stuff, keep the turbo and wastegate, and do the exact same thing! With maybe some money to build a regular turbo setup.

Paul, I can see your trying to steer me away from this. But I dont have the money to build a completly custom turbo setup.
Yet.

Thanks!

Im thinking of bidding.

Paycheck is in 2 days.. lol

Andrew

Posted by: turbo914v8 Jul 10 2005, 06:23 PM

QUOTE
Custom header to accept turbo,
Plate to bolt ehaust side of turbo to
Plate to bolt intake side of turbo to.
Some kind of FI with a throttle body, that fits in the 914 engine bay
Intercooler if needed


Andrew, you don’t need a custom exhaust manifold to mount the turbo, you can use a standard header and weld on a flange. The flange cost $10.00.

The exhaust side of the turbo again mounts to a flange at a cost of $10.00. This flange in turn is welded to the standard exhaust system for the 914-v8 conversion witch you have to get anyway.

Intake side of turbo bolts to nothing just an air cleaner $20.00

FI with throttle body not needed at this point. A good rebuilt holly 650 will net you 400 to 500 hp rebuilt holly cost $150.00.

Intercooler not need at this point, you can run 5 to 8 psi no problems. Later you can get any intercooler and bump the boost up to 10 to 15 psi more power more fun, just for the price of an intercooler $200.00 to $400.00.

So like I said, it all could be had at a shoestring budget, you just have to put the time into research for parts.

Nuff said Andrew; at the end of the day I just want to help you get the most out of what every setup you go with. If ever you need information or assistance I am only an e-mail away. Good luck and keep us all informed on your progress.


Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2005, 06:57 PM

I would choose FI because Im a programable guy.... lol

Messing around with dads Piggy back system fuel settings, the boost pressure, duty, ext... thats my idea of a good time! lol

My fun would be tuning it... not driving it... lol

Everything else you said is very informative.

Thanks alot Paul!

Andrew

Posted by: street legal go-kart Jul 14 2005, 06:34 PM

Hey,
Neglected this thread,
Paul is right about not trying to cool the fuel/air charge.
If you cool the fuel charge rapidly enough to make a difference in performance, in an intercooler you run the setting off a fuel explosion. The raw fuel after it
condensates back into a liquid will develop static electricity from the passage of air over the surface and as we all know, electricity seaks a ground.
Big BOOMBOOM.
A draw though system where you blend fuel and air before intercool/compresion is Not a good thing.
I have see the results of compressing a fuel charge puddled in the bottom runners of a manifold.
Like I said Big BoomBoom.

jt

p.s.
If you take the intercooler out of the loop, problem solved.

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 19 2005, 12:56 AM

Andrew,

Did you buy it? An old friend of mine has a twin turbo (Martin Turbo Systems) that might be up for sale...

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 19 2005, 11:37 AM

I might be interested in the martin setup.

PM me details.

Andrew

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 19 2005, 12:26 PM

He's an interesting guy, he personally has 20 classic rods, porsches, trucks, etc. and doesn't ever want to sell them. Can you say "accumulation". They are not pristine (except his 911s) and he works on them himself. I've tried for years to buy one of his -6's that just sits in a garage. Anyway I'll bug him again about the turbos and see if he'll part with them...

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