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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ How much torque is too much?
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 1 2020, 02:08 PM
‘74 2.0 22k
While I wait for the dog teeth to be delivered, I thought I would change the seals (front and rear)
I built a tool for my wheel puller - have turned it to about 80 ft/lbs, kinda worried to crank it another turn,,,,,,
I am using penetrating oil on the shaft,,,,,,,,,what next?
Heat?
Incantations?
Ideas?
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 1 2020, 02:18 PM
Heat.
A rap on the side of the hub while it's under tension from the puller often helps too. Use a soft face brass or copper hammer.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 1 2020, 02:23 PM
Super Hawk to the rescue!
Heat and hammer! Got to buy a brass one!
Thank You!
Heat.
A rap on the side of the hub while it's under tension from the puller often helps too. Use a soft face brass or copper hammer.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 1 2020, 03:21 PM
Lots of heat and hammer, no joy yet,,,, over night penetrating oil?
Super Hawk to the rescue!
Heat and hammer! Got to buy a brass one!
Thank You!
Heat.
A rap on the side of the hub while it's under tension from the puller often helps too. Use a soft face brass or copper hammer.
Posted by: pilothyer Aug 1 2020, 03:32 PM
If you heat it up with a MAPP torch with it under that much pressure it will probably jump right off.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 1 2020, 03:46 PM
Ahhhhh
I only have a propane torch,,,,,, will keep trying
If you heat it up with a MAPP torch with it under that much pressure it will probably jump right off.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 1 2020, 04:19 PM
Ahhhhh
I only have a propane torch,,,,,, will keep trying
If you heat it up with a MAPP torch with it under that much pressure it will probably jump right off.
It's really worth buying MAP. Less than $50 at the big box stores and you will find many uses for it.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 1 2020, 04:41 PM
Ahhhhh
I only have a propane torch,,,,,, will keep trying
If you heat it up with a MAPP torch with it under that much pressure it will probably jump right off.
Part of the trick with MAPP or OxyAcetylene is that you can get lots of heat in the hub quicker than it can tranfer into the crankshaft. That expands the hub faster than the crank and loosens the taper fit.
Heating too slowly allows both parts to heat up at near the same rate and doesn't loosen the fit.
Way back when I really 1st getting into my 914 I bought a MAPP & Oxygen setup at K-Mart. Yup - Dinosaurs roamed the aisles. It was worth it's weight in gold for so many jobs. It was expensive to operate (Oxygen cylinders weren't cheap). But so worth it when I couldn't have even comprehended the cost of owning an oxy acetylene rig.
Was like this:
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/bernzomatic-cutting-welding-and-brazing-torch-kit
At a bare minimum run MAPP gas though your propane torch that alone is a decent upgrade in heat.
Posted by: porschetub Aug 1 2020, 04:58 PM
No ,penetrating oil will have no effect on a taper,small amount of heat will knock it over however,when off check the puller hasn't damaged the centre bolt thread in the crank,if not sure run a tap down it ,good luck.
Posted by: porschetub Aug 1 2020, 05:02 PM
X2 reply sorry.
Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 1 2020, 06:22 PM
These can be tough. They are also getting rare to find in perfect condition, so trying not to damage the hub (or bend the ears) is a goal as well.
I have had good luck with placing a decent load on the 3 arm puller, and then using an air hammer to shock the hub. Heat with the MAPP gas can be added to this mix if necessary as well.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 1 2020, 06:53 PM
Is this the right setup for high and fast heat?
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/tools/welding-and-soldering-tools/welding-accessories/2366979?store=08546
These can be tough. They are also getting rare to find in perfect condition, so trying not to damage the hub (or bend the ears) is a goal as well.
I have had good luck with placing a decent load on the 3 arm puller, and then using an air hammer to shock the hub. Heat with the MAPP gas can be added to this mix if necessary as well.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 1 2020, 06:54 PM
Yikes, I was thinking that I was pulling too hard and may have bent the ears.......sigh.....
I will report back as to the outcome.
Thank you,
These can be tough. They are also getting rare to find in perfect condition, so trying not to damage the hub (or bend the ears) is a goal as well.
I have had good luck with placing a decent load on the 3 arm puller, and then using an air hammer to shock the hub. Heat with the MAPP gas can be added to this mix if necessary as well.
Posted by: cuddy_k Aug 1 2020, 07:13 PM
with the mapp torch. Two things...
1) when the hub does pop off, make sure you have a spotter in case the woodruff key launches with it. It's a super tiny crescent shaped piece of metal that goes into a notch in the crankshaft and the hub to "key" it. You can also spread a white sheet under the work area so it will be easier to find when it (inevitably) hits the floor.
2) I've had a lot of luck with the washer method of removing the hub... get 3 x very thick washers (like the ones used in the rear trans mounts) or small pieces of 10 ga. steel and put them under the ears, between the bottom of the bolt and the case. Screw the bolts in so that they're sandwiching the metal between the bolts and the case. Alternately tighten the bolts, leveraging against the metal until the hub pops off. Make sure the bolts are hitting just the metal, not the case. And that they're not bending the washers. Thicker the better.
PS. Be prepared...When it does pop, it WILL scare you!
Posted by: 73-914 Aug 1 2020, 07:15 PM
Is this the right setup for high and fast heat?
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/tools/welding-and-soldering-tools/welding-accessories/2366979?store=08546
These can be tough. They are also getting rare to find in perfect condition, so trying not to damage the hub (or bend the ears) is a goal as well.
I have had good luck with placing a decent load on the 3 arm puller, and then using an air hammer to shock the hub. Heat with the MAPP gas can be added to this mix if necessary as well.
Yes it is
Posted by: 76-914 Aug 1 2020, 07:16 PM
You don't need to buy a torch, just a bottle of MAP gas. Your old propane torch will work just fine on a bottle of MAP.
Posted by: bretth Aug 2 2020, 12:15 AM
I have not done this yet myself, but when hitting it with a hammer try backing the opposite side up with another (stationary) hammer to keep the impact concentrated on the hub. Works good on tapered ball joints except I would not hit this as hard as I would a ball joint. Good luck.
Posted by: Frankvw Aug 2 2020, 07:32 AM
I also had the same issue on my type4 2.0L bus engine
It just would not come off. several pullers, and finally I left it 'under pressure' from the puller and while I was thinking how on earth to get it off...it came off by itself.
It scared the crap out of me, I had no idea what happened and I did not expect a bang like this. Hope it works out for you ...can be very frustrating indeed !
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 2 2020, 07:41 AM
Buying MAPP gas now, I do not need O2 as in the picture? As in the link in my last post?
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 2 2020, 08:42 AM
Buying MAPP gas now, I do not need O2 as in the picture? As in the link in my last post?
Sort of depends on your budget. If money is no object, I'd say get an OxyAcetylene rig - even if only one of the really small portable ones plumbers use. Sometimes I wonder how I ever lived without the fire wrench. But then you're screwed trying to get cylinders filled on a Sunday.
The MAPP / Oxy set up is sort of the middle ground but comes with its own disadvantages. Costly to operate (an oxygen cyclinder doesn't last long), not great for welding due to higher hydrogen content that can lead to hydrogen embrittlement.
Similarly, on the budget conscious end, MAPP gas only is a good upgrade to propane. If you heat it with MAPP gas, have some tension on it, and use the dual hammer technique or air hammer as suggested above that is a reasonable approach.
Since your just in the middle and trying to get it done, I think starting with MAPP only is a reasonable approach.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 2 2020, 09:00 AM
Hit it with the mapp torch for 60 sec, hammered around a few times, still on tight,,,
Since heat differential is what we want-yoke vs. shaft, what is the right amount of time to apply mapp?
Thank you!
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 2 2020, 09:35 AM
Is the puller going through the bore of the flange ?? Looks to big in diameter to go through....put the bolt in it and back off a couple turns , and push on the head , with puller..
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 2 2020, 10:18 AM
Yowza -- can see deformation of the hub from the hammering. Using soft face hammer?
Bottom line 60 seconds of heat is nowhere near enough. You want that part to get up to 250-350 degrees. Hot! So hot that you wouldn't want to pick it up immediately even with thin leather gloves. Sort of hard to explain. You're not shooting for red hot, that is way too much. If you were to put a drop of penetrating oil on it while it's hot, it should be hot enough to smoke that oil.
As stated above make sure the puller isn't interfering. Doesn't look like it to me unless the solid material at the base of the thread is one of those tapered points - I'm assuming that is the crank nose that I see. I have a small plate of thick hardened washers that I put on the crank nose so the puller isn't bearing directly on the counterbore of the crank and/or at risk of messing up threads in the crank nose. That elimantes some of the apprehension about putting more torque on the puller for me.
Bolt in hole could work too but beware then all tension is on the bolt threads. I've seen it work and I've even done it this way a few times myself when I have too, but, I don't really like to put that load on threads like that.
That one seems to be a real bear -- keep fighting the good fight.
Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 2 2020, 10:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZU_-BLDNAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZU_-BLDNAU
Posted by: cuddy_k Aug 2 2020, 10:56 AM
At least 5 minutes I would say, but @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 is right... it's a feel thing. I'd bet it's the woodruff key in the slot that's gluing things together.
Posted by: cuddy_k Aug 2 2020, 10:56 AM
double post
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 2 2020, 10:57 AM
Like the video and special tool. The principle is sound as long as the plate is thick enough and/or hardened enough to not deform.
Marriage advice. Don't do that heat treating on the kitchen stove. 
I've never had to resort to this but I'll put it in the bag of potential tricks!
Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 2 2020, 11:02 AM
I shouldn't even respond ..but..my motto.. type4sale
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 2 2020, 11:11 AM
I shouldn't even respond ..but..my motto.. type4sale
That's funny but after having also dug into the 2.4L six, it's not like that engine is any simpler to work on.
After having worked to get 24 of those crazy barrel nut head studs loosened, I know understand why 911 motor rebuilds are so time intensive. Don't get me started on my current bearing situation with the H6. 
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 2 2020, 11:12 AM
I have 6 pullers of various size, this puller has the bolt part that fits perfectly within the shaft (without touching the threads) and has the arms off of the smallest puller so they fit on the ears of the yoke.
Thank you!
Is the puller going through the bore of the flange ?? Looks to big in diameter to go through....put the bolt in it and back off a couple turns , and push on the head , with puller..
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 2 2020, 11:16 AM
OK, more heat - less hammer!
BTW, the marks that are in the picture seem to be from when the part was made - there are a few flat spots on the edge of the yoke in various places.
Thank you SH!
Yowza -- can see deformation of the hub from the hammering. Using soft face hammer?
Bottom line 60 seconds of heat is nowhere near enough. You want that part to get up to 250-350 degrees. Hot! So hot that you wouldn't want to pick it up immediately even with thin leather gloves. Sort of hard to explain. You're not shooting for red hot, that is way too much. If you were to put a drop of penetrating oil on it while it's hot, it should be hot enough to smoke that oil.
As stated above make sure the puller isn't interfering. Doesn't look like it to me unless the solid material at the base of the thread is one of those tapered points - I'm assuming that is the crank nose that I see. I have a small plate of thick hardened washers that I put on the crank nose so the puller isn't bearing directly on the counterbore of the crank and/or at risk of messing up threads in the crank nose. That elimantes some of the apprehension about putting more torque on the puller for me.
Bolt in hole could work too but beware then all tension is on the bolt threads. I've seen it work and I've even done it this way a few times myself when I have too, but, I don't really like to put that load on threads like that.
That one seems to be a real bear -- keep fighting the good fight.
Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 2 2020, 11:18 AM
I have 6 pullers of various size, this puller has the bolt part that fits perfectly within the shaft (without toughing the threads) and has the arms off of the smallest puller so they fit on the ears of the yoke.
Thank you!
Is the puller going through the bore of the flange ?? Looks to big in diameter to go through....put the bolt in it and back off a couple turns , and push on the head , with puller..
wow that thing is tightPosted by: bobboinski Aug 2 2020, 11:31 AM
I have been successful doing this by getting the puller tight then smacking the top of the bolt on the puller with a hammer.
Posted by: bobboinski Aug 2 2020, 11:40 AM
I just looked back at your puller. I use a steering wheel type puller so that I am pulling on bolts threaded into the yoke, seems more secure to me and less likely to deform the part.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Aug 2 2020, 03:38 PM
HEAT, MORE HEAT
Well it came off, here is the flight path
Seems that it took about 2 minutes of MAPP gas, while the oils burned and the gasket smoldered and then the BANG (as anticipated) with a 4 ft flight path.
The reason is of course rust. 
Last, do the galley plugs look good in this picture? I spent an hour cleaning the rear seal and am concerned with the stories of loose plugs
THANK YOU TEENERS!!!!
Attached image(s)
Posted by: bobboinski Aug 2 2020, 05:02 PM
No opinion on the plugs, I cleaned mine up and gave them a coat of JB Weld for insurance as they didn't seem to be leaking. Not a proper repair, I know.
Posted by: porschetub Aug 2 2020, 05:38 PM
HEAT, MORE HEAT Well it came off, here is the flight path
Seems that it took about 2 minutes of MAPP gas, while the oils burned and the gasket smoldered and then the BANG (as anticipated) with a 4 ft flight path.
The reason is of course rust.
Last, do the plugs look goo don the other side? I spent an hour cleaning the rear seal and am concerned with the stories of loose plugs
THANK YOU TEENERS!!!!
Heat always works,even better when the part is a taper fit ,big stuff is dangerous ,remember a guy getting his foot broken when a large taper fit coupling popped off with a 60T porta-power in a big way and wasn't retained ,they had to cut his work boot off as the steel cap in his boot had compressed and almost cut some toe's off....scary sh#t.
The oil gallery plugs @ the bellhousing can be JB welded after cleaning and scratching up with course sandpaper if you are concerned about them...I just do it regardless,good luck.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 3 2020, 06:29 AM
Well it came off,
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