Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ can you buy a crate 2056?
Posted by: Type 47 Aug 14 2020, 03:08 PM
If you can buy a crate engine, who sells them?
Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 14 2020, 03:59 PM
Talk to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=419 .
Posted by: Rand Aug 14 2020, 04:18 PM
McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???
Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?
Posted by: Craigers17 Aug 14 2020, 04:42 PM
Pretty sure that Raby and McMark are still in the Type 4 engine building business,... the question is how much do you want to spend, and, more importantly, how long can you wait. I guarantee both guys are inundated with jobs.
That said, there are many others on this very site that can build you an engine. Hopefully, a couple will post. I would also put a WTB ad in the classifieds, as someone probably has something close to your specs that is ready to install, but they might be leaning towards something else.
Finally, if you go to The Samba, you can also find multiple vendors who build Type 4's. Just do your homework before you pull the trigger.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 14 2020, 04:50 PM
I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???
Less to do with a T4 being a less than optimal powerplant. Has everything to do with the cost of parts and cost of skilled labor.
Current situation is that many are infatuated with trying to make a comparison between modern water pumpers HP output vs. 1960's & early 70's aircooled technology (which was really 40's technology
)Easier to cut up a 914 to make a Porscharu with a junkyard motor than to buy a properly built and sorted 2056 that makes less HP.
Bottom line comes down to how much you value a vintage 914 as it was orginally conceived and built.
Posted by: thelogo Aug 14 2020, 05:00 PM
If you can buy a crate engine, who sells them?
I cringe to mention it . but scat engines are technically a 2056 crate motor . i wouldnt trust it but other run them
Look for a guy going to a /6 and make a generous offer for the /4
Other wise you'll be spending tons of time and money for just a nice motor . not a powerhouse
Im considering selling my just broken in 2336 . its
Plug and play from carbs to headers (nice motor)
But that could be a pretty narrow market. With that beast
And i imagine after i sell the big 4
It will cost as much as the sale price just to rebuild the original 1.7 and ill have about half the power for the same price ....
Posted by: porschetub Aug 14 2020, 07:11 PM
Pretty sure that Raby and McMark are still in the Type 4 engine building business,... the question is how much do you want to spend, and, more importantly, how long can you wait. I guarantee both guys are inundated with jobs.
That said, there are many others on this very site that can build you an engine. Hopefully, a couple will post. I would also put a WTB ad in the classifieds, as someone probably has something close to your specs that is ready to install, but they might be leaning towards something else.
Finally, if you go to The Samba, you can also find multiple vendors who build Type 4's. Just do your homework before you pull the trigger.
Beware of some of the T4 rebuilds on the Samba.....some are way too cheap and doing generally tell too much about headwork....which we all know is the weakest point in these engines.
I don't believe anyone has performance longblocks ready to go,the better guys build to order cause there is always different customer needs.
Go to would be FAT or mcmark ,known good builders ,not sure what RAT is going but that will be expensive.....don't know the OP's budget ??
Posted by: HAM Inc Aug 14 2020, 07:49 PM
Buy a T4 Store kit and build it yourself.
Posted by: wes Aug 14 2020, 08:11 PM
Maybe just lucky but I bought a 2056 Fat Preformance balanced/blueprinted Stroker with 1,000 miles on it from a member here who did a Corvette swap. Great engine all I did was swap out the empi Webber’s for 45 Dellorto’s and change the oil, couldn’t be happier. As mentioned above put a want to buy add for what you want, you never know till you ask!
Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 14 2020, 09:26 PM
McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???
Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?
That’s crap. McMark didn’t bail. He’s just not overtly active.
Posted by: sreyemj Aug 15 2020, 08:53 AM
McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???
Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?
That’s crap. McMark didn’t bail. He’s just not overtly active.
He emailed me back a few months after I inquired about an engine. He's not even taking wait list requests right now. May be great engines, but useless if you can't buy one!
Posted by: Al Meredith Aug 15 2020, 10:38 AM
If you can buy a crate engine, who sells them?
I sent you a PM about an engine, Al
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 15 2020, 10:45 AM
The $ for Jake Raby is not found in 2056s. Bigger displacement and fixes for Boxster engines.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 15 2020, 10:48 AM
The $ for Jake Raby is not found in 2056s. Bigger displacement and fixes for Boxster engines.
He told me his engines start at $20K. Sounds crazy but I think it’s more suited to the 356 crowd who want a hot rod engine without modifying their stock engine.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 15 2020, 10:58 AM
Add in aluminum cyls and a set of Hoffman heads and the price explodes. Case machine work? What ever the market will bear. Shipping to and fro adds up.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Aug 15 2020, 11:00 AM
The $ for Jake Raby is not found in 2056s. Bigger displacement and fixes for Boxster engines.
He told me his engines start at $20K. Sounds crazy but I think it’s more suited to the 356 crowd who want a hot rod engine without modifying their stock engine.
$20,000 in 356 land isn't that eye opening, so you're probably right.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 15 2020, 11:03 AM
Starts at 2270 cc? Then that requires other expenses to optimize performance. Most #s are in the thousands. Multiples of.
Posted by: thelogo Aug 15 2020, 11:11 AM
When it starts costing more then /6 engines
and 
Posted by: Rand Aug 15 2020, 01:43 PM
McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???
Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?
That’s crap. McMark didn’t bail. He’s just not overtly active.
To be 100% clear, I only have 100% respect for McMark. I would buy from him first without hesitation. That's why I said it!!
But it isn't crap if he isn't here. I miss the bro on here! Don't try to turn my post negative.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 15 2020, 03:18 PM
When it starts costing more then /6 engines
and Number of cylinders is immaterial. Restoring a 356 engine can cost way more than a six, a Polopolus engine runs $25-40K and all those numbers pale in comparison to the 4 cam Fuhrmann engine. A $20K hot type 4 can be a cost saving measure.
Posted by: Rand Aug 15 2020, 03:38 PM
Don't feed the ignorance.
Posted by: porschetub Aug 15 2020, 05:02 PM
When it starts costing more then /6 engines
and Think you are missing the point somewhat,the top builders charge what they do so the motors aren't potential hand grenades,these motors are high performance builds with a lot of setup time,machining and the best components money can buy.
Build a high performance 911 motor and you can easily exceed the cost of a Raby 4 engine if done by the top builders of them,its all relative ,question is what do you want to spend for 'peace of mind" ??.
Posted by: Type 47 Aug 15 2020, 10:29 PM
So...can't just click on GMParts.com (for ex: could be 2056parst.com) and order up a 2056.
Well I've got the 62k original engine that had the FI thrown into a box and some Webers put on and also 2 other core 2.0's along with 3-4 trannies.
I guess I'm going to become acoupleof2litersandsomenewtrannies.com
Posted by: thelogo Aug 16 2020, 12:08 AM
When it starts costing more then /6 engines
and Number of cylinders is immaterial. Restoring a 356 engine can cost way more than a six, a Polopolus engine runs $25-40K and all those numbers pale in comparison to the 4 cam Fuhrmann engine.
A $20K hot type 4 can be a cost saving measure.
Something is wrong here .you could put 2x 1.7 in for that
Joined at the crank or in front with a axle
Posted by: McMark Aug 17 2020, 02:30 PM
Inundated is the right word. 
If you're not interested in a grumpy rant, skip on to something else...
But here's my thoughts about Type4 engines after building a lot of them. It's harder and harder to build these engines professionally. They take a lot of time to build right, and time costs money. There's corners that can be cut, but as a professional, those risks aren't worth the potential headache. So the only true option is to build an engine as tight and reliable as possible. So the difference between a 2.1 (2056) and a 1.7 build is just the cost of parts. The build process is identical. And realistically, the 2.3 (2270) isn't that much more work. But doing all that means a pricey engine every time.
Then add on the fact that part qualities aren't reliable. Core parts aren't always good (you can never guarantee a leak free engine, even though everyone wants one). And subcontractors are really hard to find. I haven't taken on any engine builds in awhile mostly because getting the cases line-bored is nearly impossible. I don't know if I plan to do any more builds unless I invest in a line-bore tool and do them myself. And that sounds like a new fresh hell to deal with.
I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips. I've had to take my personal (cherry picked over time) parts and use them on customer engines because my subcontractors 'took too long'. So unless I raise my prices even more, it's not financially worth it to take on that much risk.
And then we can start talking about how you take a well built $10k engine and hand it to a customer to have 'their friend who knows carbs', or the local 'VW shop' to bolt a set brand new carbs on it. And they don't know all the tricks new carbs take to set up right before you even bolt them on. So you end up with a set of rings that don't seat right, and oil consumption issues, and guess who gets a call... 
So then you want the 2270 with MicroSquirt installed and tuned, and that conversation starts at $25k.
I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Aug 17 2020, 02:43 PM
Inundated is the right word.
If you're not interested in a grumpy rant, skip on to something else...
But here's my thoughts about Type4 engines after building a lot of them. It's harder and harder to build these engines professionally. They take a lot of time to build right, and time costs money. There's corners that can be cut, but as a professional, those risks aren't worth the potential headache. So the only true option is to build an engine as tight and reliable as possible. So the difference between a 2.1 (2056) and a 1.7 build is just the cost of parts. The build process is identical. And realistically, the 2.3 (2270) isn't that much more work. But doing all that means a pricey engine every time.
Then add on the fact that part qualities aren't reliable. Core parts aren't always good (you can never guarantee a leak free engine, even though everyone wants one). And subcontractors are really hard to find. I haven't taken on any engine builds in awhile mostly because getting the cases line-bored is nearly impossible. I don't know if I plan to do any more builds unless I invest in a line-bore tool and do them myself. And that sounds like a new fresh hell to deal with.
I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips. I've had to take my personal (cherry picked over time) parts and use them on customer engines because my subcontractors 'took too long'. So unless I raise my prices even more, it's not financially worth it to take on that much risk.
And then we can start talking about how you take a well built $10k engine and hand it to a customer to have 'their friend who knows carbs', or the local 'VW shop' to bolt a set brand new carbs on it. And they don't know all the tricks new carbs take to set up right before you even bolt them on. So you end up with a set of rings that don't seat right, and oil consumption issues, and guess who gets a call...
So then you want the 2270 with MicroSquirt installed and tuned, and that conversation starts at $25k.I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.
^ Sounds about right, matching up with some things I've heard from 911 engine builders of late—and the supplier & subcontractor issues are not limited to Type IV engines these days.
Threats of lawsuits over oil drips from an air-cooled engine.
Posted by: mrholland2 Aug 17 2020, 02:48 PM
So...can't just click on GMParts.com (for ex: could be 2056parst.com) and order up a 2056.
Well I've got the 62k original engine that had the FI thrown into a box and some Webers put on and also 2 other core 2.0's along with 3-4 trannies.
I guess I'm going to become acoupleof2litersandsomenewtrannies.com
I'm not sure I'd try that website at work
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 17 2020, 03:30 PM
I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips.
I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
God bless anyone that is running a professional shop in this day and age. Anytime I contemplate doing paid work, I come back to these kinds of pitfalls.
Posted by: porschetub Aug 17 2020, 04:58 PM
Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.
Posted by: thelogo Aug 17 2020, 05:39 PM
Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.
Please specify they have a long block with ? Steel liners ? For 7.5
And i somehow doubt the one mcmark quotes at 25k is not using steel liners ?
For that $ its nikasil
And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?
But then again i daily a toyota so ...toke
Posted by: VaccaRabite Aug 18 2020, 07:27 AM
And i somehow doubt the one mcmark quotes at 25k is not using steel liners ?
For that $ its nikasil
And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?
A shop built 2270 with Microsquirt installed and tuned at $25K is a bargain.
The Parts alone, assuming that you are using HAM heads and Nikkies and Marks MS2 kit is approaching $15K+. Then the time spent actually machining the parts, balance, assembly and tuning... And you have to eek some profit in there somewhere too.
These are NOT mass produced motors using brand new parts. These are using 50 year old parts that have been heat cycled and need to be cut and welded and moved back into shape. There is no way to do it cheap using quality parts ad not cutting corners.
Zach
Posted by: McMark Aug 18 2020, 07:43 AM
I always get a good laugh from that... The cheaper the car, the less the engine should cost? 
Posted by: falcor75 Aug 18 2020, 07:53 AM
Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.
Please specify they have a long block with ? Steel liners ? For 7.5
And i somehow doubt the one mcmark quotes at 25k is not using steel liners ?
For that $ its nikasil
And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?
But then again i daily a toyota so ...toke
So you drive a cheap 914, most of the people paying for a new engine have already spent as much or more into restoring the bodywork, paintwork, interior and suspension etc in their cars. Then, a built and tuned turnkey engine is comparetively reasonable at that cost. Oh and dont forget you wanna rebuild your gearbox too, thats another 2k for someone to do it for you aslong as its in half decent shape to start with.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 18 2020, 08:48 AM
I always get a good laugh from that... The cheaper the car, the less the engine should cost? They didn't call 914's the Poor Man's Porsche without cause.
It's a death spiral really. Buy a $10K car hobby car but then the engine pops and you're looking at a substantial repair bill if you can't do the work yourself.
Next thing you know it has some 1/2
fixes and it's now a $6K car. Then it needs clutch work and trans work done and now its a $4k car that never gets fixed properly.
So goes the life of the average 914. Same thing is going on right now with 928's, 944's etc. They are in the death spiral state where guys that can barely afford one, end up with one, and then neglect proper maintanace and repair.
It happened with 356's and early 911's but in those cases they have come out the other side looking pretty good market price wise for the good survivors.
914's only just now starting to get their due recognition.
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Aug 18 2020, 09:13 AM
A few years ago, I watched a brouhaha over the cost of rebuilding a four-cylinder E30 M3 engine—which was compared/contrasted with rebuilding an M5 engine of the same period. Turns out, both are pretty trick. And both benefit from the attention of someone who knows how to get the best from them as well as what to watch out for.
Like every other high-performance engine.
When considering the costs associated with rebuilding a Type IV engine, it might be instructive to consider them against those for a 356 engine, a 911 flat six, various BMW or Datsun straight sixes, and Chevy V8s to a similar level. I suspect the cost of "simple" VW or Fiat four-cylinder engines built to a high level will surprise many enthusiasts.
In the end, it comes down to parts and labor—and a lot of an engine rebuild is labor. So if the person doing the labor lives somewhere that has a high cost of living—or depends on vendors that do—look out.
Posted by: 914werke Aug 18 2020, 10:17 AM
Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.
No way,
there is a guy over on the bird (912 forum) that was arguing the ease & inn-expense of building a /4. He claims it can be done for $200.
Posted by: 914_teener Aug 18 2020, 10:24 AM
I always get a good laugh from that... The cheaper the car, the less the engine should cost? Saw this and the thread gave me a bit of a chuckle with the title.
It has nothing to do with where anybody lives. The idea that you can buy a crate anything nowdays is like going down to the corner store and pick up a type 4 engine in a cardboard box.
I.ve seen Mark's work in person and the idea of a crate engine and professionally built means that someone can make their living doing that. The VALUE of this goes unappreciated....when I say that what that means is that the value of his work and abilities is undervalued to someone who wants a crate engine.
Mostly....and especially with 914.s they are now mostly a collector car and the reason I sold mine. I.m an enthusiast, not a car collector. My old 914 is somewhere in Michigan now in a collectors garage. When perforated panel right behind the battery tray needs to be redone I referred him to Mark.s shop because I value his skills and don.t complain how much it costs unless I plan on doing it myself.
Good luck with the crate type IV engine.
Posted by: DRPHIL914 Aug 18 2020, 10:42 AM
---- this is why you will see more and more suby and Ls swaps..... like it or not, idiots spoil it for the rest. it only takes one to spoil it for a builder, law suits over a oil drip freaking stupid but i believe it because we have a sue happy society.
Mark, i cant say i blame you but it does suck to see it happen, loosing all the good builders.
so i expect we will see more and more of the h2O pumper swaps...... heck even considering an LS car as my other car for sure......
Posted by: thelogo Aug 18 2020, 02:25 PM
Thats just a story right
Guys dont really sue over oil leaks . i mean 
Posted by: black73 Aug 18 2020, 02:40 PM
.....I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.
Add this to the list of 914 quirks...
Engine too tricky for the pros to build but just right for the beginner.
Posted by: McMark Aug 18 2020, 02:47 PM
Now I remember why I stopped posting as much...
Posted by: Bleyseng Aug 18 2020, 03:01 PM
I have built a few type 4's over the years and just like all engines take time to do it right. Nowdays you need a stash of assorted parts too just because so much used stuff is garbage.
Not having oil leaks is a science too not the amount of red hi-temp gasket maker. I have turned down several requests to build folks a engine (esp. bus ones) no thanks.
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Aug 18 2020, 03:57 PM
Now I remember why I stopped posting as much...
Posted by: Craigers17 Aug 18 2020, 04:35 PM
The part I hate to see the most is the possibility that these skills sets and fonts of knowledge won't be passed down/earned by the next generation. While I realize that building top notch air cooled engines is very labor and time intensive, it seems that if guys like McMark, Raby, etc. could find the right young hands and minds that would be willing to apprentice under them, these engines could be produced more readily, and, after they decide to "hang it up", the tradition will continue.
At some point, I think you have to bring more hands in help takeover some of the workload. I also realize finding good people is another whole can of worms. Others might say that these cars are dinosaurs and there just isn't enough future in it. I disagree...it seems that 356's, 914's, VW's etc are actually garnering more interest.
I see so much talent, skill, and craftsmanship out there, that it is mind-boggling. I hate to name names, because someone will always feel slighted, but when you see the product turned out by guys like McMark, Raby, Bruce Stone, Marty from MSDS, the whole 914 Rubber crew, Ben MB911, Jeff Bowlsby, and I'll throw Stefan's name in there from GTS,..(EDIT....don't know how I forgot Chris Foley and Len Hoffman....but ya...)I can only hope that all of this experience and talent carries forward. All of these folks are true artisans. I don't even want to start naming names of 914 gurus of on this site that are masters in their own right, but maybe don't produce product for general consumption. I also know I've left out many names....maybe others can add.... just my 2 cents....
Posted by: eric9144 Aug 18 2020, 05:06 PM
Rebuild prices go up, 914 prices go up. Its just the way it goes, and the cycle of classic cars, 25yrs ago you could get a decent 914 for $5k and get plenty of OE parts, early 911's were still under $10k in soCal... that's all days gone now, everything is more expensive and harder to source, factory parts have dried up and aftermarket stuff is hit and miss.
When the prices escalate, like when you see early 911's going for near 100k, suddenly the economy of scale is much different, that $25k engine isn't such a ridiculous proposition.
This will continue to drive prices up IMO
Don't kid yourself that these /4 builds are in the hot 911 engine range either--get a load of a high end 3.6 rebuild and you'll $hit yourself, heck there was a WEVO 915 listed here recently and just that was $15k... you could be in a engine/trans >$60k not including the car or the cores.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 18 2020, 05:48 PM
One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.
McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.
Posted by: thelogo Aug 18 2020, 05:58 PM
Seems excessive to charge 25k because you need to make money . but these are somewhat of a boutique engine (big 4 )
Posted by: Bleyseng Aug 18 2020, 06:15 PM
You should hear the baywindow guys bitch about spending $1000 on a rebuilt engine. They are the same engine except for the heads and Djet stuff. Still time consuming to do right 
Posted by: billh1963 Aug 19 2020, 04:47 AM
One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.
McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.
Mark...you are spot on.
Posted by: DRPHIL914 Aug 19 2020, 06:16 AM
One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.
McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.
Mark...you are spot on.
i agree, although this has slowly been changing, remember it wasnt always that way with 356's or even 911's, its why you still find some that were dumped and parked years ago due to what ever, but "wasnt worth the cost of fixing". so this slowly may change. Heck, i bought my 914 for $2k and was told it would never be worth what it would cost to repair the rust in the longs and floor, that was only 11 years ago!, now its insured for 2x what i have in it and been offered that before, and others like it but less done in their restore have been sold for more. - my point is dont get short sited and throw your motor a way due to cost of repair vs value, but others that do see the value will and are arriving on the scene to do just that and those people will spend that $$ to restore that numbers matching motor and trans, - you just have to channel that buyer and no in general its probably not this crowd in general.
But it makes me wonder what i will do in the next few years when it comes time. i will need to atleast refresh the heads so been saving up to do just that with HAM heads etc, but if Mark wont build it i have access to the manuals etc might be a do it myself project. - i would rther pay the pro. .............
Posted by: mepstein Aug 19 2020, 06:28 AM
There are still many 356, 911, etc engine builders who can build a top notch type 4. You just won’t get the $5k mcmark price.
Posted by: Tdskip Aug 19 2020, 07:02 AM
There are still many 356, 911, etc engine builders who can build a top notch type 4. You just won’t get the $5k mcmark price.
+1
I think we all need to remember that we can’t demand cheap to a point where people can’t be fairly compensated for their time. If we want a professional service we need to be prepared to pay for it.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 19 2020, 07:09 AM
Seems excessive to charge 25k because you need to make money . but these are somewhat of a boutique engine (big 4 )
Ever priced a dyno? That equipment cost has to be amortized by the engine builds.
Likewise the time to set up engine on the dyno, fuel, tuning time, etc. It gets pricey reallly fast even if just renting dyno time.
Posted by: sreyemj Aug 19 2020, 07:55 AM
Now I remember why I stopped posting as much...
I don't understand this either. Everyone goes on about how it's not easy to do correctly, but then recommends spending 10k on parts to do it yourself?
Posted by: JOEPROPER Aug 19 2020, 08:18 AM
Now I remember why I stopped posting as much...
I don't understand this either. Everyone goes on about how it's not easy to do correctly, but then recommends spending 10k on parts to do it yourself?
Sarcasm... If you think it"s so easy, then go ahead and do it yourself... People think that's it's no big deal to rebuild these engines, so it shouldn't cost so much until they try to do it themselves and fail miserably. Later realizing (afterwards) that they themselves couldn't do it correctly even if they had all the necessary parts, facility, equipment etc... handed to them. People should stop bitchin' about the cost and do it themselves or realize the value of a job well done.
Posted by: mbseto Aug 19 2020, 09:09 AM
I think about half the people here miss the sarcasm because they're still learning and have some sincere questions. You talk about a "914 engine", which in truth is an 80hp engine that shouldn't be hard for a - let's not say beginner, but an amateur - to build. But so many people here are running a big 4 with an output closer to the limit of what the design can do, or a 911 engine that's a generation removed from what's really a "914 engine" and it's a different beast.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 19 2020, 09:29 AM
I think about half the people here miss the sarcasm because they're still learning and have some sincere questions. You talk about a "914 engine", which in truth is an 80hp engine that shouldn't be hard for a - let's not say beginner, but an amateur - to build. But so many people here are running a big 4 with an output closer to the limit of what the design can do, or a 911 engine that's a generation removed from what's really a "914 engine" and it's a different beast.
Good point. As soon as you move from stock, you become an engine designer/builder, not just assembler. Big difference.
Posted by: rjames Aug 19 2020, 10:12 AM
Given prices for engine rebuilds, it's very probable that when it comes time for mine to be rebuilt I'll look for a used engine, or worst case scenario, just sell the car. Ideally I'd have an experienced engine builder do the work, but I can't justify the cost. I love the idea of building the engine myself, but $8-10k for the parts alone with a risk of screwing something up isn't enticing.
I remember when a $5k engine was being offered by McMark as a result of a joint effort between him and Raby. Before this thread came up, I didn't realize how much the prices for parts had gone up, or how long the line has become to get one built by someone who knows how to do it right. 
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 19 2020, 11:14 AM
I love the idea of building the engine myself, but $8-10k for the parts alone with a risk of screwing something up isn't enticing.
Lots of cross talk going on in this thread between high end Raby engines at $20K+ and what it costs for a modest rebuild which isn't $8K in parts.
Certainly pricey for new HAM heads, Raby cam, and Nickies, etc.
However, that isn't a stock rebuild. It is feasible to have $8K in cost just between these three items. But again, not necessary for modest rebuild. On the bottom end, reusing parts (re-use stock case, crank, push rods, flywheel, new AA Performance Products P&C set, etc.) where feasible is can be done for much less than $8K in parts.
The huge variable here is labor cost and a professional shop's overhead costs.
If you are doing the work yourself, you can spend 100+ hours if need be to do a basic stock type 4 rebuid decently. Thousands of 914 owners have done it with nothing more than the Tom Wilson book, dedication, discipline to not take shortcuts, and to use proper tools (torque wrench! ! !). That labor cost is nothing.
On the other hand, if you want to pay the likes of Jake or McMark's building and tuning expertise, $100 - 150 / hour is not an unreasonable shop rate. But, if it is going to take them 40 hours of labor, and dyno time to run in, and tune your new high dollar big bore, $6K or more in labor is not out of the question. In fact, I'm probably estimating it way low. They have over head (shop cots, tools, dyno, payroll taxes, lawsuit risk!, etc.) to cover and the cost is not excessive and should be expected.
Posted by: BeatNavy Aug 19 2020, 11:18 AM
Just as a data point, I spent a little over $5400 on all parts and machining services when I did my 2056 last year. I didn't skimp anywhere on quality or cut corners. I did have a case on hand, but those are relatively cheap, and the machining included case decking the spigots, balancing parts, resurfacing flywheel, and checking bore alignment.
I broke a two rings on cylinder 1 when I first installed it. Something wasn't right, and a compression check verified. I pulled the engine, and fortunately accessing the rings doesn't require splitting the case. Re-gapped them all, replaced the broken ones, and reinstalled.
I put a couple thousand miles on it, and it ran like a champ before I installed my 2270. It's now sitting on the floor of my garage, and I'm wondering what to do with it, although I'm probably going to keep it because I believe it's numbers matching to the car.
I am not an experienced builder. I took my time, made one serious mistake from which I was able to recover, and was pretty happy with the result and the experience.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 19 2020, 11:30 AM
I am not an experienced builder. I took my time, made one serious mistake from which I was able to recover, and was pretty happy with the result and the experience.
Posted by: 914werke Aug 19 2020, 11:44 AM
How much of that was, and/or in what shape were your heads?
Posted by: Literati914 Aug 19 2020, 11:56 AM
..
The huge variable here is labor cost and a professional shop's overhead costs.
If you are doing the work yourself, you can spend 100+ hours if need be to do a basic stock type 4 rebuid decently. Thousands of 914 owners have done it with nothing more than the Tom Wilson book, dedication, discipline to not take shortcuts, and to use proper tools (torque wrench! ! !). That labor cost is nothing.
..
This is exactly right !! Guys can rebuild their own engines, it's been going on successfully for years. There's more info out there than ever before on how to do it - these are basically 60+ year old engines.
No disrespect to the high end professional guys - but I see it in other marquees as well, where at some point a reputation is established (rightfully so), a mystique grows around them and then it suddenly goes to rediculous prices (mostly because of back logged work load - from scared and/or lazy enthusiast, "research/development", etc), then it's magic that others just can't come close too, then eventually an attitude like they don't really even want to bother doing the engines - but will for the right money. Same thing in the vintage Volvo community, vintage motorcycles, etc. Not trying to step on anyone's toes - but do it yourself or pay a bunch more than necessary. JMHO.
Posted by: 914_7T3 Aug 19 2020, 11:58 AM
One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.
McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.
Mark...you are spot on.
i agree, although this has slowly been changing, remember it wasnt always that way with 356's or even 911's, its why you still find some that were dumped and parked years ago due to what ever, but "wasnt worth the cost of fixing". so this slowly may change. Heck, i bought my 914 for $2k and was told it would never be worth what it would cost to repair the rust in the longs and floor, that was only 11 years ago!, now its insured for 2x what i have in it and been offered that before, and others like it but less done in their restore have been sold for more. - my point is dont get short sited and throw your motor a way due to cost of repair vs value, but others that do see the value will and are arriving on the scene to do just that and those people will spend that $$ to restore that numbers matching motor and trans, - you just have to channel that buyer and no in general its probably not this crowd in general.
But it makes me wonder what i will do in the next few years when it comes time. i will need to atleast refresh the heads so been saving up to do just that with HAM heads etc, but if Mark wont build it i have access to the manuals etc might be a do it myself project. - i would rther pay the pro. .............
The motor rebuild on my resto project was a big question mark. Looked at Fat Performance among other local engine builders, but wasn't interested in R&R at one shop and rebuild elsewhere. Not to mention Fat tunes them with a Carb set up and my car is FI. Too much finger pointing potential when something goes south.
The fact that these type 4 motors are VW, I turn keyed it with a local air cooled VW shop that has worked on my type 1 for 20 years. Combined with a set of NOS 94mm P&Cs they had on the shelf made this the best option. Things took longer than anticipated due to some health issues with my 83 year old mechanic and the reinstall left us with no spark, but 1/3 of the Justice League and the SoCal Crew got that taken care of in short order.
End result is that the whole rebuild with R&R was slightly less than just Fat's rebuild price and I've got all Original German internals. 460 miles into it, I'm glad to have chosen that route as its stock and numbers matching so the value is there.
The point is keep it simple and sometimes the best route is to stay in the VW world although it continues to get more difficult as time goes on.
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 19 2020, 12:05 PM
Inundated is the right word.
If you're not interested in a grumpy rant, skip on to something else...
But here's my thoughts about Type4 engines after building a lot of them. It's harder and harder to build these engines professionally. They take a lot of time to build right, and time costs money. There's corners that can be cut, but as a professional, those risks aren't worth the potential headache. So the only true option is to build an engine as tight and reliable as possible. So the difference between a 2.1 (2056) and a 1.7 build is just the cost of parts. The build process is identical. And realistically, the 2.3 (2270) isn't that much more work. But doing all that means a pricey engine every time.
Then add on the fact that part qualities aren't reliable. Core parts aren't always good (you can never guarantee a leak free engine, even though everyone wants one). And subcontractors are really hard to find. I haven't taken on any engine builds in awhile mostly because getting the cases line-bored is nearly impossible. I don't know if I plan to do any more builds unless I invest in a line-bore tool and do them myself. And that sounds like a new fresh hell to deal with.
I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips. I've had to take my personal (cherry picked over time) parts and use them on customer engines because my subcontractors 'took too long'. So unless I raise my prices even more, it's not financially worth it to take on that much risk.
And then we can start talking about how you take a well built $10k engine and hand it to a customer to have 'their friend who knows carbs', or the local 'VW shop' to bolt a set brand new carbs on it. And they don't know all the tricks new carbs take to set up right before you even bolt them on. So you end up with a set of rings that don't seat right, and oil consumption issues, and guess who gets a call...
So then you want the 2270 with MicroSquirt installed and tuned, and that conversation starts at $25k.I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.
Have to agree with McMark. I have been building my dream engine 2.6 for some time. Parts alone well north of $25K. Note there have been a few mistakes that have pushed that number up and that includes a CFR exhaust system. While it is a labor of love for me, a pro cant invest that kind of time in every build. Core parts? Thought I had good ones. Spent $$ on opening the case, Race Ware head studs, and more only to have a cam bearing journal break during assembly. Sure I could have done something that caused it to break but you just never know. Could happen to a pro as well and as a builder you eat that.
Had the engine out twice chasing oil leaks. Soon to be a third. While one of the oil leaks was clearly a mistake I made as an amature installing the rear main seal, pros can make the same mistake.
It is not easy to build Type 4s and you have to expect things to fail in things that are almost 50 years old. If you are going to whine about oil leaks, go buy a new car and leave the 914s to the real men with questionable intelligence!
Posted by: BeatNavy Aug 19 2020, 12:19 PM
How much of that was, and/or in what shape were your heads?
Rich, roughly $1700 of that was brand new AA heads, ceramic coated, and prepped by Len Hoffman. To be fair, I don't think you can get them that cheaply anymore.
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 19 2020, 12:31 PM
How much of that was, and/or in what shape were your heads?
Rich, roughly $1700 of that was brand new AA heads, ceramic coated, and prepped by Len Hoffman. To be fair, I don't think you can get them that cheaply anymore.
Yea mine were close to $3K.
Posted by: Chris914n6 Aug 19 2020, 12:37 PM
I think it needs to be clarified. A $25k Raby motor is built to be a maxed out track powerplant. Choose this if you want the best and can afford it.
A 2056, which is just 96mm P&C on a 2.0, is a straight forward rebuild. Just keep in mind VW makes cheap crap, so the heads could have cracks. Hotter cam optional. Otherwise it's basically a common refresh that any classic VW shop can do.
A 2270 with the stroker crank, machine work, and new higher flowing heads is where big bucks and experience is required.
Porsche prices will never be justified on a VW motor.
Posted by: jdamiano Aug 19 2020, 12:38 PM
I think if I was building a car that started out ugly and I was free to do anything to it I would consider building something like this and figuring out how to make it work. Type ones are far less expensive to build. I would try to 917 it up as much as possible. Maybe lay the shrouds out myself to look like that tan fiberglass looking material. Never going to happen for me but fun to think about.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 19 2020, 12:38 PM
If you are going to whine about oil leaks, go buy a new car and leave the 914s to the real men with questionable intelligence!
Love it. I'm going to memorize this quote.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 19 2020, 12:47 PM
Porsche prices will never be justified on a VW motor.
Who designed the original VW? Putting part prices aside, professional labor cost is still the bulk of the cost whether assembling a Type 1 or a 911 engine though the 911 engine specialist will likely garner a premium over the VW type 1 simply as a function of supply vs. demand.
Assuming labor was equal between the two, the 911 is going to easily cost at least 2x the labor due to 2x the hours to assemble the damn thing with all the additional parts and fiddly fasteners on a 911 engine with cam chains, chan tensioner & housings, two cam towers, independent heads, etc., vs. a simple Type 1.
Posted by: nditiz1 Aug 19 2020, 03:19 PM
So i was in a similar situation recently. I was looking into upgrading the stock engine in my 74 to a 2056 from a stock 2.0 since I was needing to do a partial rebuild anyway. The cost of some of the parts I wanted to go with for the 2056 were going to be around 3k - 4k, maybe 2 - 3k if I went with modifying my stock heads, for the 2056 top end. At that price point I needed to make a decision to throw money at that and hope it would be good enough to run decent, not overheat, scoot up the large hills I have around me OR go with a 6 conversion, something I have never had before. I already had the flat 6, it just needed to be completed with the EFI. So I took the blue pill...
Posted by: 914werke Aug 19 2020, 03:29 PM
Ya we continue to suffer the "its only a VW - its cheap" mindset. And almost ALWAYS valuing labor at 0 when evaluating price, even though that buyer really has no real intent to build it themselves. Today that RAT/OC pkg at 5K looks like a steal~
Posted by: HAM Inc Aug 19 2020, 06:41 PM
Trying to make a living building vintage engines is tough. Takes a lot of attention to detail. That's one (of many) big fat reasons why the price is high from the best pros.
I have had a gazillion DIY customers over the years who had very successful builds and every single one of them enjoys their car all the more for the experience. 
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 19 2020, 07:42 PM
Trying to make a living building vintage engines is tough. Takes a lot of attention to detail. That's one (of many) big fat reasons why the price is high from the best pros.
I have had a gazillion DIY customers over the years who had very successful builds and every single one of them enjoys their car all the more for the experience.
So true! I grew up working in my fathers diesel machine shop and have literally built 1,000s of heads and engines. 30 years ago I had that attention to detail and eye to almost instantly spot a flaw with out measuring or testing. It was just wrong and I knew it. Today I have lost that ability and was very happy to pay for HAMs attention to detail and experience. Unless you have that experience it is far cheaper to pay someone who has that eye than to gain that experience through mistakes.
Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 28 2020, 08:24 PM
McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???
Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?
Quite the contrary around here..
In fact, other than doing R&D projects with the modern Porsche engines, all I build these days are Aircooled engines..
I stay busier with them, than I want to be. I have gone back to building them all myself, like things used to be 25 years ago. I cross trained all my employees to the more modern Porsche engines, starting back in 2008, and now they are the ones that run that side of the business. I have gone full circle, back to where I started, and what built this business.
About 1/3 of my workload is for Miles Collier, which I have a ton of fun with. I love the challenges of making things perfect, and 100% correct.
The rest is between 356 and T4 work, with the T4 work demand higher than it has been since 2011, or so. My next available completion is currently November 2021 for a T4 engine, as an example. The smallest engine I build is 2,270cc, and I've pretty much moved over to my 2,320cc engine, since everything these days gets LN Nickies cylinders, and its the best 914 combination all around when using these.
I moved the whole Aircooled operation to my second facility, where I work with only one employee. This is a 7,000 Sq Ft facility, where I train Porsche technicians, carry out R&D, and now where I have recreated "Aircooled Heaven". The last piece of that puzzle was moving my vintage Stuska engine dyno, and updating it after 20 years in service. I just finished this move, and major update (with modern data acquisition) two weeks ago. We christened the dyno with my daughter's first T4 engine build, which made 120HP. Not bad for an 8 year old, who had previously only built Go Kart engines.
I'm back, even though I really never left.. Just took a break from the craziness to add some success through diversification.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: mepstein Aug 29 2020, 06:28 AM
McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???
Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?
Quite the contrary around here..
In fact, other than doing R&D projects with the modern Porsche engines, all I build these days are Aircooled engines..
I stay busier with them, than I want to be. I have gone back to building them all myself, like things used to be 25 years ago. I cross trained all my employees to the more modern Porsche engines, starting back in 2008, and now they are the ones that run that side of the business. I have gone full circle, back to where I started, and what built this business.
About 1/3 of my workload is for Miles Collier, which I have a ton of fun with. I love the challenges of making things perfect, and 100% correct.
The rest is between 356 and T4 work, with the T4 work demand higher than it has been since 2011, or so. My next available completion is currently November 2021 for a T4 engine, as an example. The smallest engine I build is 2,270cc, and I've pretty much moved over to my 2,320cc engine, since everything these days gets LN Nickies cylinders, and its the best 914 combination all around when using these.
I moved the whole Aircooled operation to my second facility, where I work with only one employee. This is a 7,000 Sq Ft facility, where I train Porsche technicians, carry out R&D, and now where I have recreated "Aircooled Heaven". The last piece of that puzzle was moving my vintage Stuska engine dyno, and updating it after 20 years in service. I just finished this move, and major update (with modern data acquisition) two weeks ago. We christened the dyno with my daughter's first T4 engine build, which made 120HP. Not bad for an 8 year old, who had previously only built Go Kart engines.
I'm back, even though I really never left.. Just took a break from the craziness to add some success through diversification.
Jake
Posted by: Tdskip Aug 29 2020, 06:50 AM
My hunch is, as the local shops retire and age out, is that there will be fewer but bigger shops as business consolidates. More planning, more lead time, more shipping but still support.
Already seeing that in the British car space.... 2/3 of the local shops that used to be everywhere are now closed.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 29 2020, 08:46 AM
The last piece of that puzzle was moving my vintage Stuska engine dyno, and updating it after 20 years in service. I just finished this move, and major update (with modern data acquisition) two weeks ago. We christened the dyno with my daughter's first T4 engine build, which made 120HP. Not bad for an 8 year old, who had previously only built Go Kart engines.
Love the vintage dyno for vintage engines.
One of my biggest mistakes was when Chrysler moved out of Highland Park in early - mid 90's to move to Auburn Hills, there were a bunch of old dyno's & dyno control panels that went up for sale at various equipment auctions . Being a broke just out of college guy with limited (rented) garage capacity it never crossed my mind to buy one. At a bare minimum, the control panels could have been made into a sweet one of a kind bar!
Here's a picture of what they looked like:
https://www.allpar.com/corporate/factories/highland-park.html
Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 29 2020, 08:59 AM
The last piece of that puzzle was moving my vintage Stuska engine dyno, and updating it after 20 years in service. I just finished this move, and major update (with modern data acquisition) two weeks ago. We christened the dyno with my daughter's first T4 engine build, which made 120HP. Not bad for an 8 year old, who had previously only built Go Kart engines.
Love the vintage dyno for vintage engines.
This is the same Dyno that I've had since 2000. I lived in the old shop for those 20 years, and tested around 800 engines during that period. After all those years the wiring and etc was shot, so I removed the whole thing, updated it with a data acquisition system that also controls the dyno. The differences before and after are stunning, after 6 solid weeks of effort.
Here's before, and the last engine tested at the main shop before I ripped it all apart. A new dyno will now fill this old room, and be set up for Porsche DFI engines, specifically..
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 29 2020, 09:16 AM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1095
Very cool. I've always appreciated the fact that you have a dyno to back your HP claims and to do development on.
Way to many in the industry (not just 914's) that are out there making absurd HP claims but don't have the dyno to back it up.
Sure you can do lot's of interesting work on a racetrack or drag strip to develop an engine but nothing beats a dyno for repatability. Keep on Keepin' on!
Posted by: Rand Aug 29 2020, 11:22 AM
Jake! Glad you posted so we know. Bailed from here, not AC engines. Hope to see more of you.
Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 29 2020, 04:41 PM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1095
Very cool. I've always appreciated the fact that you have a dyno to back your HP claims and to do development on.
Way to many in the industry (not just 914's) that are out there making absurd HP claims but don't have the dyno to back it up.
Sure you can do lot's of interesting work on a racetrack or drag strip to develop an engine but nothing beats a dyno for repatability. Keep on Keepin' on!
While a dyno isn't everything (and is basically nothing if you use it in the wrong ways) it does give a huge advantage when it comes to seeing what you create. Seeing what works, and what doesn't is a requirement. Before the dyno I tested cars over and over again driving up the same hill at wide open throttle, seeing how fast I could go to the mailbox at the top of the grade. It works, but takes lots of discipline.
Thanks.. I pretty much bailed from all the forums. I would still come here every now, and then and see what's going on, but I didn't post much.
Posted by: thelogo Aug 29 2020, 09:18 PM
It should be pretty self explanatory
But if you want a aircooled engine built out to a
Aviation standard or what has been called
Aeromotive. Tested , dyno ed , proven etc .
It just dont come cheap .
I would pump some water for that money
Like a supercharged lotus elise/ toyota motor with a sequential shifter or boxster trans .... not a paddle or dual clutch .
Posted by: Literati914 Aug 29 2020, 10:05 PM
..
I would pump some water for that money
DITTO!
.
Posted by: EdwardBlume Aug 30 2020, 06:29 AM
Would a 718 motor work? Seeing them on evil bay for about $5000 with 10K miles....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-17-18-19-Porsche-Cayman-718-2-0L-300-hp-Turbo-Takeout-Engine-7k-Miles-2443/313124708574?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item48e7afe0de:g:I5UAAOSw8nte8mhm&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkRjLZq23gAR%252BKma9gM2Z1hsbVKHvUAD2di2f35eSxIv% 252BsiqZjRaQsFvvYzkyvrBgBkKZ0pgxZMQSsFpJskyOjpOMrq6q0r2k6pwarNfsN4eCiqNLXRvzsnke
f8T%252Bo3CGAttHUWm5jtlnXEcCBNdMNhL2vqP0OtG8KNE9Dj% 252BQWBQAlEJVguEtgbKfN3a1QcpE7s3VM7UJ5DO9JHuQnNmbTb4KZJ8kfKCOB3AFdZOavoKnsVOUErH
Fab4LG80BIce9vNS6%252BgSjMdwgI7t7GM4KXHCezGq82cmZweJHCiX5OMIQqPXLrC7Nm6piF72pv7iA9txXdMSBHtWZT%252BGA8Hy5Ye15QTEKHh7kqDrnGGDS%252BDBAycHJ3ZHxk3Bo%252BhadaF%252FDP2lpkYMmGlYEbaSYOe%252F9pR6eJQ9GKIB%252FQn8t5G%252F7hkRFtBZEOoH804LZWbvghwBYiEoNQBhdY2vZ914c%252Fh%252FdWA5GNeEcTdo52oawVC4a4eX%252BJonwgaAhVm5jfyXK%252B6AzWaQSiDLelTEDLcA9Vzghr% 252F1m1zP075HhKtIsVmfUgDDjiTSJsrxBobGn5nzAd7YqIFKqJ6AYITjtqBgaeTveOeHfP2pBrGMLQP
P1INRakcSHsiFcQN0bphZEn1w4ct6mckHtb1tqtnj%252Bt8RjxhgfDfK6kb%252FLffxG45Ry8xSzoak90ZlsYhaaWuKtLPiOLB%252BLLSLz%252F5Gy4RNWsVzZYBqw95QgbkQPq0OQbtAHcn4VTP66iPw7zI1eIDBBxZf3xH5aq%7Ccksum%3A3131247085745e2d639d189849ff9f3bcea14f5e1750%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
Posted by: Tdskip Aug 30 2020, 06:31 AM
Would a 718 motor work? Seeing them on evil bay for about $5000 with 10K miles....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-17-18-19-Porsche-Cayman-718-2-0L-300-hp-Turbo-Takeout-Engine-7k-Miles-2443/313124708574?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item48e7afe0de:g:I5UAAOSw8nte8mhm&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkRjLZq23gAR%252BKma9gM2Z1hsbVKHvUAD2di2f35eSxIv% 252BsiqZjRaQsFvvYzkyvrBgBkKZ0pgxZMQSsFpJskyOjpOMrq6q0r2k6pwarNfsN4eCiqNLXRvzsnke
f8T%252Bo3CGAttHUWm5jtlnXEcCBNdMNhL2vqP0OtG8KNE9Dj% 252BQWBQAlEJVguEtgbKfN3a1QcpE7s3VM7UJ5DO9JHuQnNmbTb4KZJ8kfKCOB3AFdZOavoKnsVOUErH
Fab4LG80BIce9vNS6%252BgSjMdwgI7t7GM4KXHCezGq82cmZweJHCiX5OMIQqPXLrC7Nm6piF72pv7iA9txXdMSBHtWZT%252BGA8Hy5Ye15QTEKHh7kqDrnGGDS%252BDBAycHJ3ZHxk3Bo%252BhadaF%252FDP2lpkYMmGlYEbaSYOe%252F9pR6eJQ9GKIB%252FQn8t5G%252F7hkRFtBZEOoH804LZWbvghwBYiEoNQBhdY2vZ914c%252Fh%252FdWA5GNeEcTdo52oawVC4a4eX%252BJonwgaAhVm5jfyXK%252B6AzWaQSiDLelTEDLcA9Vzghr% 252F1m1zP075HhKtIsVmfUgDDjiTSJsrxBobGn5nzAd7YqIFKqJ6AYITjtqBgaeTveOeHfP2pBrGMLQP
P1INRakcSHsiFcQN0bphZEn1w4ct6mckHtb1tqtnj%252Bt8RjxhgfDfK6kb%252FLffxG45Ry8xSzoak90ZlsYhaaWuKtLPiOLB%252BLLSLz%252F5Gy4RNWsVzZYBqw95QgbkQPq0OQbtAHcn4VTP66iPw7zI1eIDBBxZf3xH5aq%7Ccksum%3A3131247085745e2d639d189849ff9f3bcea14f5e1750%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
Cripes! That is cheap if healthy.
Posted by: EdwardBlume Aug 30 2020, 06:32 AM
Would a 718 motor work? Seeing them on evil bay for about $5000 with 10K miles....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-17-18-19-Porsche-Cayman-718-2-0L-300-hp-Turbo-Takeout-Engine-7k-Miles-2443/313124708574?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item48e7afe0de:g:I5UAAOSw8nte8mhm&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkRjLZq23gAR%252BKma9gM2Z1hsbVKHvUAD2di2f35eSxIv% 252BsiqZjRaQsFvvYzkyvrBgBkKZ0pgxZMQSsFpJskyOjpOMrq6q0r2k6pwarNfsN4eCiqNLXRvzsnke
f8T%252Bo3CGAttHUWm5jtlnXEcCBNdMNhL2vqP0OtG8KNE9Dj% 252BQWBQAlEJVguEtgbKfN3a1QcpE7s3VM7UJ5DO9JHuQnNmbTb4KZJ8kfKCOB3AFdZOavoKnsVOUErH
Fab4LG80BIce9vNS6%252BgSjMdwgI7t7GM4KXHCezGq82cmZweJHCiX5OMIQqPXLrC7Nm6piF72pv7iA9txXdMSBHtWZT%252BGA8Hy5Ye15QTEKHh7kqDrnGGDS%252BDBAycHJ3ZHxk3Bo%252BhadaF%252FDP2lpkYMmGlYEbaSYOe%252F9pR6eJQ9GKIB%252FQn8t5G%252F7hkRFtBZEOoH804LZWbvghwBYiEoNQBhdY2vZ914c%252Fh%252FdWA5GNeEcTdo52oawVC4a4eX%252BJonwgaAhVm5jfyXK%252B6AzWaQSiDLelTEDLcA9Vzghr% 252F1m1zP075HhKtIsVmfUgDDjiTSJsrxBobGn5nzAd7YqIFKqJ6AYITjtqBgaeTveOeHfP2pBrGMLQP
P1INRakcSHsiFcQN0bphZEn1w4ct6mckHtb1tqtnj%252Bt8RjxhgfDfK6kb%252FLffxG45Ry8xSzoak90ZlsYhaaWuKtLPiOLB%252BLLSLz%252F5Gy4RNWsVzZYBqw95QgbkQPq0OQbtAHcn4VTP66iPw7zI1eIDBBxZf3xH5aq%7Ccksum%3A3131247085745e2d639d189849ff9f3bcea14f5e1750%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
Cripes! That is cheap if healthy.
Closer to you than me.... in Phoenix
Posted by: thelogo Aug 30 2020, 06:49 AM
Would a 718 motor work? Seeing them on evil bay for about $5000 with 10K miles....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-17-18-19-Porsche-Cayman-718-2-0L-300-hp-Turbo-Takeout-Engine-7k-Miles-2443/313124708574?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item48e7afe0de:g:I5UAAOSw8nte8mhm&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkRjLZq23gAR%252BKma9gM2Z1hsbVKHvUAD2di2f35eSxIv% 252BsiqZjRaQsFvvYzkyvrBgBkKZ0pgxZMQSsFpJskyOjpOMrq6q0r2k6pwarNfsN4eCiqNLXRvzsnke
f8T%252Bo3CGAttHUWm5jtlnXEcCBNdMNhL2vqP0OtG8KNE9Dj% 252BQWBQAlEJVguEtgbKfN3a1QcpE7s3VM7UJ5DO9JHuQnNmbTb4KZJ8kfKCOB3AFdZOavoKnsVOUErH
Fab4LG80BIce9vNS6%252BgSjMdwgI7t7GM4KXHCezGq82cmZweJHCiX5OMIQqPXLrC7Nm6piF72pv7iA9txXdMSBHtWZT%252BGA8Hy5Ye15QTEKHh7kqDrnGGDS%252BDBAycHJ3ZHxk3Bo%252BhadaF%252FDP2lpkYMmGlYEbaSYOe%252F9pR6eJQ9GKIB%252FQn8t5G%252F7hkRFtBZEOoH804LZWbvghwBYiEoNQBhdY2vZ914c%252Fh%252FdWA5GNeEcTdo52oawVC4a4eX%252BJonwgaAhVm5jfyXK%252B6AzWaQSiDLelTEDLcA9Vzghr% 252F1m1zP075HhKtIsVmfUgDDjiTSJsrxBobGn5nzAd7YqIFKqJ6AYITjtqBgaeTveOeHfP2pBrGMLQP
P1INRakcSHsiFcQN0bphZEn1w4ct6mckHtb1tqtnj%252Bt8RjxhgfDfK6kb%252FLffxG45Ry8xSzoak90ZlsYhaaWuKtLPiOLB%252BLLSLz%252F5Gy4RNWsVzZYBqw95QgbkQPq0OQbtAHcn4VTP66iPw7zI1eIDBBxZf3xH5aq%7Ccksum%3A3131247085745e2d639d189849ff9f3bcea14f5e1750%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
Something tells me this engine is way to complex for
A 914 . but if it fits i guess .
But its one if those that needs engine out to change a air filter
Lotus elise needs rear clip removed to get to air box
Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 30 2020, 08:41 AM
If you know what we know about the DFI engines, you'd see that about 1/2 of what you need to make this engine run in a 914, is actually being sold in the ad. It would be easier to rip all the ancillaries off it, and throw a pair of carbs on it, than try to make all the other aspects work.. That includes DME, and immobilizer, which are hard enough to hack in the actual vehicle it belongs in.
That said, what I see from the front row is what I expected we would see with elevated 914 values, and more notoriety. The people who I am seeing as purchasers today, either want to add the "vintage performance" feel, and make the car the way it would her been "hot rodded" in the 70s, or they want it absolutely bone stock restored with the stock EFI, and etc.
I think this trait will continue as the 914 is more appreciated, and people want to make its original engine have more performance, while retaining a stock/ vintage flair. There were some years back in the day, when I'd go all year and never build a 914 engine, for a 914. They'd end up as conversions into beetles, 356s, and 912s. That changed a couple of years ago, and this year the 914 application is making up 80% of my work.
Posted by: DRPHIL914 Aug 30 2020, 10:12 AM
first off, just wanted to say they it’s great to hear from you!! i always have enjoyed our conversations here and in person at your facility when you so graciously hosted us as a group with there for Okteenerfest!! i was one of those that was going to have my car on the dyno when we had the software glitch 2 years ago! i still hope to get back there someday!!
also wanted to say that i have had the feeling and posted such, that eventually with the values of our cars going up and more people willing to restore the 914 correctly and willing to spend the $$ that we would see the motors also then being preserved and restored, and i am SO glad that you are a major part of that movement- and i am not surprised one bit. I know mine will require this in the next few years and have started the planning of just that, so i will follow with acute interest your posting of how this is going. for the benefit of the many new members here joining our ranks, please share more of all of what you are doing and have available for this of us that will be doing this. my numbers matching motor will remain of course and will need a quality rebuild in the near future.
again, the sharing of your knowledge and expertise is greatly appreciated!
Phil
If you know what we know about the DFI engines, you'd see that about 1/2 of what you need to make this engine run in a 914, is actually being sold in the ad. It would be easier to rip all the ancillaries off it, and throw a pair of carbs on it, than try to make all the other aspects work.. That includes DME, and immobilizer, which are hard enough to hack in the actual vehicle it belongs in.
That said, what I see from the front row is what I expected we would see with elevated 914 values, and more notoriety. The people who I am seeing as purchasers today, either want to add the "vintage performance" feel, and make the car the way it would her been "hot rodded" in the 70s, or they want it absolutely bone stock restored with the stock EFI, and etc.
I think this trait will continue as the 914 is more appreciated, and people want to make its original engine have more performance, while retaining a stock/ vintage flair. There were some years back in the day, when I'd go all year and never build a 914 engine, for a 914. They'd end up as conversions into beetles, 356s, and 912s. That changed a couple of years ago, and this year the 914 application is making up 80% of my work.
Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 30 2020, 12:27 PM
first off, just wanted to say they it’s great to hear from you!! i always have enjoyed our conversations here and in person at your facility when you so graciously hosted us as a group with there for Okteenerfest!! i was one of those that was going to have my car on the dyno when we had the software glitch 2 years ago! i still hope to get back there someday!!
also wanted to say that i have had the feeling and posted such, that eventually with the values of our cars going up and more people willing to restore the 914 correctly and willing to spend the $$ that we would see the motors also then being preserved and restored, and i am SO glad that you are a major part of that movement- and i am not surprised one bit. I know mine will require this in the next few years and have started the planning of just that, so i will follow with acute interest your posting of how this is going. for the benefit of the many new members here joining our ranks, please share more of all of what you are doing and have available for this of us that will be doing this. my numbers matching motor will remain of course and will need a quality rebuild in the near future.
again, the sharing of your knowledge and expertise is greatly appreciated!
Phil
Thanks.. It was nice having y'all.. One day if the tour comes back, we may do it again... I've moved all the Aircooled stuff home with me now, though.. I have to work alone.
Its insane how the 914 following has changed. Lots of my modern Porsche customers now brag about owning a 914 "too".. A few years ago they pissed on 914s, and I remind them all of that, and where I started..
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 30 2020, 12:29 PM
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)