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Posted by: Tdskip Oct 5 2020, 07:55 AM

So it certainly appears if one uses BAT as a reference point that weapons grade 914/6 builds have been fully excepted as “worthy” the Porsche market.

Nearly all of those builds, however, have been high dollar endeavors, and while highly impressive machines many of them seem a bit compromised for actual road use or touring.

Any thoughts on where 3.0 and 3.2 L builds that are not taken to the max now trade?

Posted by: Racer Oct 5 2020, 08:15 AM

BAT is an outlier of many things.. Their writing and presentation being key. once you leave the world of stock, imho, you enter into the buyers desires.. Some like 2.4-2.7l cars.. others want a whole hog 3.6.

Either way, Execution becomes key. Folks on BaT seem to have a lot of money to spend on their toys. Color, condition, records of any restoration/rebuild of the body/engine/brakes and trans all impact value of the modded car. And then the picture also gets muddled when high $$ /4 cars pop up and go for $40-75K.

I would guess a livable range for 3.0-3.2 cars with a "history" to be $40-50k cars.. but its not the car, its the BUYER that makes it all happen. There was this nice one that never hit $30K https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-porsche-914-39/ which I think surprised many

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 5 2020, 09:04 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful reply. That is actually a great reference point that you posted, I think nice as opposed to outrageously (aka weapons grade) nice cars are probably still in that general range?

Posted by: mepstein Oct 5 2020, 09:28 AM

Unless I'm missing something, that car was a hell of a deal.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 5 2020, 09:29 AM

Is the take away from that one sale that you need to put flares on the car?

Posted by: VaccaRabite Oct 5 2020, 09:45 AM

UNless you are building to sell, build the car you want and will enjoy. Chances are someone else will too when they time to sell comes around.

If you are building just to sell, that's when you want to be concerned about current market trends.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 5 2020, 09:47 AM

Good morning. Really just exploring/discussing the evolving market. Don’t know much, but enough that I know I can’t build one like the $100k cars and not to get into flipping builds.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 5 2020, 11:20 AM

Widebody does bring more money but it cost money to get there.

I don't know anyone who builds project cars to sell at a profit without having a customer lined up and footing the build. If shops could build on spec and make a profit, they would absolutely do it. It's tough being married to a customer for a year or three while you build their car. I don't generally see private individuals selling project cars at a profit either.
Someone once told me in real estate, you make money on the buy side". It took me a while to understand but I believe buying and selling cars works the same way. "

Posted by: eric9144 Oct 5 2020, 11:41 AM

I think it's interesting how few of the "right" cars really come up on BAT... Lots of BUB's and lots of questionable cars, occasionally some good stuff... but the really good ones are few and far between.

The WMD builds have gotten somewhat out of hand to financially pull off at this point, man you got to be really into it to go build out a 914-6 clone for >$150k and you've also got to know you can never sell and come anywhere close to a break even. That being said, you have to be "all there" mentally and physically to get in and drive them without fuch'ing yourself. Think that's why they come up on BAT...

The sweet spot conversion cars are like the 73/74 2.0's... People are holding the good ones and not selling, or selling rarely and/or not on BAT at all.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 5 2020, 01:22 PM

We have all seen some really well done conversion cars with larger displacement motors, 2.7 & up. If I would have been interested in more of a street hot rod I would have gone with a conversion car with flares and a 3.0 with Webers, moderate suspension, moderate chassis stiffening, front oil cooler, RS finished Fuchs, and a good paint job- not a Concours level paint job. I think those cars can be had for $40K-$50K. The trick is to know what you want, recognize it when you see it, be able to go see it in person (ideally) and then whip out the cash offer on the spot and have a trailer parked around the corner.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 5 2020, 02:58 PM

^ I think that's sort of the conventional thinking right now.

Six conversions that sell for "big" money seem to take a certain "crowd pleasing" look, and M471 flares do seem to be connected to that look. Two still stand out as high-water marks for me:

Sold for $52k + fees for beautifully presented 2.0T (!) six conversion with flares (9/7/17)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-porsche-914-6-gt/

Bid to $103,914 for a beautifully presented 3.6 six conversion with flares (5/12/20)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-porsche-914-6-9/

There are plenty of other examples, but these two auctions strike me as bellwethers—and the takeaway for me is that a new (and/or returning) crowd is clearly interested in the 914, and likes the flared 914s more than narrow 914s.

While it's nothing more than a hunch, I think there's trickle-down ahead much as we've seen with other models. It starts with headliners that get hot (356 Speedsters, Carrera RS 2.7s, 930s, etc), and the rising tide eventually raises the other ships. There might be waves with economic cycles and other influences, but what typically seems to happen is 1) the headliners are Hoovered up and prices get superheated, 2) buyers become more sophisticated as they gain new eyes for and perspectives on that era and "discover" some of the better kept secrets that are maybe subtle but similarly wonderful in their own right (356A or C coupe, 1967 911S, 911 2.2, etc).

I don't have a crystal ball, but I can see where 914s with flares might eventually lead to greater appreciation of the narrow cars. In high school, I wanted to flare my car but couldn't afford to. I still love the GT flares, but have grown to really like and appreciate the clean lines of the original design—particularly when it's presented well. My guess is that the market might follow a similar trajectory...

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 5 2020, 03:00 PM

Fwiw, I have driven a lot of weapons-grade 914s, but only two that were actually fun to drive. The others were fast, but I am not sure they'd put much distance on a well-driven 914-4 down a back road because they were kind of a mess. Fast, yes, but hardly dialed. I remember driving one 914-6 3.8 with all the right stuff (915, S4/965 brakes, etc) that routinely trounced just about anything in a straight line back around 2000 alongside a milder 914-6 3.6. The 3.8 had you on your toes all the time, and you were nearly fighting with the car just to feel reasonably safe while you hauled, while the 3.6 felt like a 914 that had been built by the factory with a 993 engine. It was this car, and I think it was a steal in light of some of the other prices I've seen. There are some visual changes I'd make, but those are easy. Sorting a car is where the real art lies...

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-porsche-914-6-28/

The best (most fun) 914 I've ever driven had a 2.2-liter 911S engine with MFI and short gears. Someone here on the World bought it recently. Now that was a smart buy...and that car remains a target for my own 2.2.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 5 2020, 03:21 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 - thanks for the thoughtful posts, good stuff.

Dialed-in and factory feeling is the goal. The '74 911 has a 3.2l in it but is still a narrow body but has been upgraded in a bunch of ways that don't really show (suspension etc). It is just 14/10ths competent vs a stock '74 if that makes sense, hugely satisfying and I've gotten out of it after 1,000 mile trips wondering where the time/miles went because I was ready for more.

That is my goal for the 3.2l build I'm picking at while wrapping up a couple (non-aircooled) builds. Wondering, all that said, if I'll need more rubber to handle the 3.2L engine even if I try to out drive the tires...

I regret not grabbing a occasional 2.2 or 2.4 that have come up for sale...but expect to pick up a 3.0l from before Oct ends. So....

Posted by: eric9144 Oct 5 2020, 03:57 PM

The white one is absolutely fantastic I wish I'd been in a position to bid on that one...it checks all the boxes for me

The driving video on the blue one is almost anxiety inducing

I do appreciate that there are fringe builds out there that are clearly getting an audience and that people have taken a greater interest in how amazing the 914's really are, were and can be.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 5 2020, 04:59 PM

@mesptein - do your customers ever ask for a "mild" 914/6 conversion or is it call big $?

Posted by: porschetub Oct 5 2020, 09:52 PM

someone dumped a sh#tload of $$$ and most likely didn't profit from the sale the PO or current owner/seller I'am thinking....lot of money in the motor alone.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 6 2020, 05:50 AM

The shop where I used to work does 98% aircooled 911. The majority of the conversions are 3.2/3.4 or 3.6/3.8. These days, 911 guys want the big engines so it's mostly 3.8's. They've done one 914-6 conversion even though the owner is a 914 fan and has two 914 race cars. Most of the shop builds are $2-300K so it's well beyond what most 914 are looking for. I don't think the website has been updated for a while but they are at -
www.rswerks.com

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 6 2020, 05:58 AM

Thanks for the response Mark, sounds like the dynamic is similar however in that people bringing cars to a builder are generally really having them built.

There was a local shop here in town that did a mild / narrow body 914/6 build before they retired and it ended up being $40k+. I remember the owner muttering something like “they should have just spent $20k and really done it up.

Posted by: Coondog Oct 6 2020, 07:24 AM

While both those cars are top notch, Eric scored the deal of the Century when he bought the Patrick Motor Sport built “Big Laguna”. That same car in today’s prices would set you back 200k coming out of PMS.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 6 2020, 07:38 AM

1000%

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 6 2020, 09:43 AM

Totally agree. That was the deal of a century.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 6 2020, 09:44 AM

As the builder of a "Weapons Grade" conversion I have to comment.

I have probably spent 40K on engine and trans alone. I don't know for sure, as I don't total any receipts. It is blindingly fast. But I am still working out the bugs, and I still have not sorted the chassis issues a year after getting it running.

I did it because I wanted to, and somebody said that you can't put a boxster/cayman trans in a 914 without cutting the rear trunk out.

But mostly I did it because it was there. I am a horsepower junkie.

I built the car for me. If I ever sell it (I probably will keep it till the end), I will definitely lose money. But I get to enjoy it and brag about it. That was worth the money!

Clay

Posted by: eric9144 Oct 6 2020, 09:48 AM

Going through the paperwork I know I bought for between 1/3 and 1/2 it's "finished" cost...

*keep in mind also, a lot of these builds take 3-5+ years and involve lots of parts hunting, drama and sorting out, mine was no exception to that, TBH I don't think I'd have the patience to go through it all

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 6 2020, 09:58 AM

That white car was really presented well, both in terms of the photos and video—but also in terms of the build's overall restraint and period looks. Visual decisions, details, ride height, etc. Squint and it's the Sonauto car that won Le Mans. My gut is the 914s the market will favor in the long run are the ones that look like something either the factory could have built or something from the period. Not always, but generally—as a result of broader appeal and as a result of today's seven-figure GTs. Not sure that will translate to 916-look cars as much, or NB cars for that matter, but it will be interesting to watch.

What was interesting to me about the white six conversion is that it got to that (record setting) price on Fuchs the aren't finished properly, BF Goodrich tires, and the weakest flat six of them all. All three might suggest, to many buyers at least, corners cut. Rightly or wrongly, they're looking for Weidman-restored Fuchs, Avons or Pirellis, and at least a 2.5 under the engine lid. But the car was so well done it didn't matter, and the fact it went for that much back in 2017 really impressed me. And yes, I really like the car too!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 6 2020, 10:23 AM

An excellent question....

The customers for "mild" conversions are out there, whether due to taste or budget. One of the coolest examples I've found is this car—I find it really, really appealing…on par with some of the best flared conversions out there but for different reasons.

https://patrickmotorsports.com/blogs/news/914-6-road-rally-trim



Cost to build a mild or a wild six conversion isn't all that different if both are all inclusive (metal work + full paint + interior + engine/trans + suspension/brakes/wheels/tires). So I can see why most builds go wild (big six, flares, etc), and not sure I could resist myself. Suspect the nice narrow cars are a bit like a John Willhoit 356B or C coupe. Same $350-500k ballpark for a complete restoration, but on a car that will likely never be able to justify that cost. But the person wants what they want, for whatever reason (nostalgia, utility, subtlety, etc), and is willing to pay for it because there's no exact alternative. As I understand it, the Willhoit cars trade between Willhoit customers at a super premium over analogous cars—because those patrons know how long and how many $ it takes to do one of those cars.

I don't see that happening—on that level—for the 914 world, as the 356 and 911 are just different beasts. Is anyone doing $150-250k in metal work on a 914 (before paint!) as yet?

What's funny to me about the 914 is that, the more time I've spent in various Porsches, the better it holds up. This goes for 356s, 911s of all eras, the "ultimate" Porsches, the race cars, RSRs, etc. Not saying it's better, but it holds up surprisingly well given the "press" it always got. I didn't expect that, as I always accepted the idea that my 914 was a "starter kit" Porsche to budding Porsche enthusiasts, the one you discard as you as you get that used 911 SC, or whatever. But as other Porsches have come and gone, whether as press cars or my own cars, the 914 is the one I've kept, and the one I keep coming back to. Its branding heritage—for those who care—is a mess, but its identity is clear. Both as a Porsche design and engineering project, and as a simply fantastic sports car.

Posted by: eric9144 Oct 6 2020, 10:25 AM

Back to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21666 's original topic question...

Mine is a 3.8, "all out" open checkbook build--I was in the right place at the right time and as a life long 914 guy it was the 10/10ths car I never thought I'd personally own. I didn't really even consider the drivability so after 8 months of ownership and about 1500mi I can answer that to some degree.

Like Clay, I'm a HP junkie but also a 914 junkie, two worlds collide and it's magic

For actual road use, I'm not going to lie, it's actually pretty f*ching amazing-- 911 TT fast and 914 characteristics. The front end is seems a litte stiff to me, but outside of that I really can't complain about ride quality--keep in mind my chassis has all the stiffening available, as well as the trailing arms and extensive tubing and suspension bracing. The drive train is incredibly well sorted (now that its been "rescued" and is being driven). Starts on 1st crank, trans feels fluidly smooth (915 wevo). Inside the engine bay looks like it was all factory thanks to well sorted wiring/tins etc.

So on the package level, its really put together well, to the point where it could be a daily driver.

On the "touring use" side of things...well...I'm getting there, having grown up with 914's it never really occurred to me that it wasn't a good idea to jump in and make super long trips, it was my car and that's what it was for

My only beef with driving my "WMD" to something like WCR (500 mi one way for me) is the noise--on my car there's no sound deadening on the FW in the bay or in the cabin so the noise, while not outright annoying, isn't really conducive to long distance touring per say...when I'm not in the throttle, the exhaust tone isn't bad really, but still louder than is comfortable for long trips. I plan on addressing that and I my goal is to make it the most civilized version of it that it could be. Ironically it has an audiophile stereo installation that I don't really turn on.

Gratuitous photo op

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 6 2020, 10:54 AM

Hi @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=12876 - I understand about engine noise in these. Funny, I don't recall ever thinking my other 2 914-6's were loud when driving. But that was almost 30 years ago.... these days, with my 3.2 and Ben's SS heat exchangers and quiet muffler I do not believe it is the exhaust that bothers me. It is the engine noise itself. I wear soft foam earplugs when I drive the car and that makes it completely comfortable and still allows me to talk and hear my passenger.

One of the things on my list is to install the stock 3.2 air box and snorkel. At present I have a K&N that dumps right behind my head. I think that may be part of the noise problem. I want to route the stock box so it sits on the passenger side of the car. I will get to that eventually.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 6 2020, 10:58 AM

^ Love the wheel change—nice to see you're making that car your own…

Since 1990~, I've driven my 914 as far north as Washington state, and as far east as Utah. Back then, I was like you: It was my car, so of course I drove it. But, other than a trip to LA for Luft one year, long trips have been rarer lately. Some of that is midlife crunch, and some of it is having more comfortable options…something I didn't have back in the 1990s.

As for sound deadening: The factory knew what it was up to with the firewall deadening both sides in the 914-4, and we took a risk in leaving the factory stuff on the engine side of my six conversion, just adding a few extra anchors to make sure the 911 cooling fan didn't suck it in. Years later, so far so good. Car is still a lot louder on the freeway than it was with the four, but that's okay as I don't use the car for touring all that often. With that said, I have sometimes wondered about whether a bit of deadening on the underside of the engine lid and maybe even a dual-pane rear window (seems like it would be easy to do, and I think it's been discussed here) might help when the top is on?

At odds with all this is my desire to keep these cars light…

Posted by: Mueller Oct 6 2020, 11:24 AM

At certain price points potential buyers expect a stripped to bare metal chassis rebuild, is this something you are willing to do or can accomplish?

Just slapping a 3.0 or even a 3.8 into a 914 isn't going to make it a high end build which would be fine for some buyers since they don't want or can afford a full rotisserie rebuild.


Just look at the current BAT '71 911 with a 3.0 motor. Decent looking car and so far only $21K bid (a few hours to go)

Posted by: Mark Henry Oct 6 2020, 11:35 AM

Do you plan to drive it, show it or flip it?

My 3.0/6 has a sort of well done colour change that was done in the 80's, it has paint chips all over, but it's still respectable paint. Every year I think I should repaint my teen and every year I get more paint chips.
The thing is I drive my 914, sometimes I drive it hard, if I was worried about the paint it would suck all the joy out of driving it. So I've come to the conclusion I'll never have a show quality teen and I'm okay with that. I just want to enjoy my 914.

I'm a horsepower junkie as well, mine might not have the ponies of a 3.6-3.8, but it's a twinplug 3.0 with healthy Web cams which is more than enough power for the street for me. I've been almost daily driving my 914 all summer.

My face has a

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 6 2020, 11:47 AM

I put an good radio in my car years ago. But it would take me about 10 minutes to figure out how to turn it on because I never really listen to music... other than the "music" coming from right behind me.

Clay

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 6 2020, 12:48 PM

I installed a period correct Blaupunkt with the stock 2 speaker pods and that is it. I don't turn it on-more for the looks. But of course it does work as I it was restored before installation. I did add an electric Hirschmann antenna.

Posted by: Coondog Oct 6 2020, 01:04 PM

I settled my long drive noise issues with two options

# Turn the stereo up louder
# Ear plugs

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 6 2020, 01:35 PM

Hi Greg - Yeah, I wear soft ear plugs already.

Posted by: VegasRacer Oct 6 2020, 01:45 PM

The only way to come out on top financially is to buy an exceptionally nice car that somebody else has built.

The real pay off comes when you actually use it. A lot.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Oct 6 2020, 02:01 PM

Watching with interest.

I may be the last builder of non-WMD out there from what I can tell. I'm not chasing HP.

2.4L planned. Staying with 901 trans.

Just want a period correct six and to keep the car as light as possible. I will certainly lose money doing this but intend to keep it until I'm no longer vertical in this world.

Posted by: eric9144 Oct 6 2020, 02:18 PM

Like Pete said, honestly that's one of the best combo's possible, you won't regret it--light and nimble and genuine fun without being overdone

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 6 2020, 03:37 PM

Great discussion gentlemen, really appreciate all of the shared experiences and thoughts.

Mark H - I build my cars to drive, and honestly a bit scruffy makes that easier. I want to be able to park it, look back at it while walking away and then spend zero time worrying about it. The best drive ever was in my 5 shades of red 911, and now that it is freshly painted and "nice" I wonder if I'll enjoy it less.

Personally my rule of thumb is anything I buy / build has to be capable of making a run up the coast to San Francisco an enjoyable experience. That "rule" kicked the MGA out of the garage recently (sigh), just too much of a toy.

No doubt that a 3.2L will make the SF run with power to spare but I do worry about the NHV considerations. The 2.0L/Type4 that I flew into Oregon to pick up and then Rachael and I drove down the coast was never an issue with NHV or noise. Those big dollar builds on BAT driving videos are fun to watch but honestly make me wonder how long before you'd get too ride and noise fatigued.

@superhawk - was leaning towards that same engine but then the 3.2l became available and it was close to the same price and, well, there you go....

The 911 has a 3.2l but there are back seats and comparatively loads of space separating the engine from where you sit.

Last quick thought - it is very nice to be able to just bounce these build considerations around and reference other cars that we have experienced. I know I am stupid lucky to even participate on threads like...

Posted by: mepstein Oct 6 2020, 03:51 PM

It should be easy to make a 3.2 build quiet and comfortable. Stock injection with stock air box. Modern noise reduction inside cockpit. Might double it up on firewall. One of Ben's quiet mufflers. Don't go ultra low profile on the tires and play with tire pressure. Even the sixes are a lot lighter than modern cars.

You may want to change the 5th gear for cruising. A 3.2 in a 914 can handle lower revs than a small engine.

Posted by: john77 Oct 6 2020, 04:25 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=12876 what a stunning car. I started flaring my car last weekend. It's silver too but I'm toying with a color change - yours has got me second guessing myself though.

Does the front valance have the cut out for the oil cooler? I was looking at the style on the PMS website but haven't seen one on a car.

Posted by: Gint Oct 6 2020, 05:05 PM

I'm putting a 2.7 with CIS in my /6. I always said that in a stock-ish 914, 170-ish horsepower should make for a really fun car without being too fussy or costing a fortune.

Lengthy trips + Bose QC30 = works for me.

Posted by: sixnotfour Oct 6 2020, 05:18 PM

my first was a six...soooooooooooooo never really liked the clang bang rattle of the type 4 sale...

Posted by: RickS Oct 6 2020, 08:15 PM

3.0 with Webbers conversion, front oil cooler, real six heat exchangers and oil fill plumbing, 6s and 7s, stiffening Kit, side shift with Rennshifter, combo gauge, Nurburgring seat, full Elephant suspension, rear fenders professionally flared, power windshield squirters and kept looking relatively as stock looking on purpose. No leaks, great compression and everything 100% functional. Paint needs 3 small spots remedied

So what are the best shots at value?

Posted by: Gint Oct 6 2020, 09:53 PM

Ok, now that I've read the entire thread instead of just pieces...

I'm building mine for myself, on a realistic budget, to drive (if I ever get it finished). It didn't hurt that it's a real six that I purchased for $8500 nearly 20 years ago and drove it home from NorCal. Ultimately I want something closer to the original formula of the 914/6, rather than a "weapons grade" build. But that's just me. I can appreciate the "weapons grade" 914s on BAT. Beautiful cars. This one is currently doing it for me. Dig the gold. Kind of wish I'd painted mine that color.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-porsche-914-6-8/

Posted by: john77 Oct 6 2020, 10:29 PM

My car is pretty similar to yours, although with a 2.7RS spec engine and not as clean.

I’ve been keeping an eye on sales for the past couple of years as I thought I might need to sell mine at one point, and depending on miles I’d say anywhere between $32K-$42K.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 7 2020, 07:36 AM

It will be interesting to see some narrow body /6 conversions come up on BAT or trade here.

I'm thinking that based on the weapons grade sale prices there is a mad rush to build replicas of the big dollar builds.

Nice cars gentlemen!

Posted by: mepstein Oct 7 2020, 09:13 AM

I don’t think there will be a mad rush to build anything. Your usually underwater on any six conversion unless you buy someone’s project car.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 7 2020, 09:16 AM

Professionals know that, but there are a lot of arm chair want-to-be people that will learn the hard way.

Posted by: Marv's3.6six Oct 7 2020, 10:27 AM

I too have my weapons grade 3.6 hot rod, it was built by me beginning in 2005. I built my vision of what Porsche would built given what was available at the time, I am happy with the car... but its more than a decade on now and tastes change, now I do not drive it at anything over about 3/10's. In the last few years I have made concessions for comfort, something I would not have considered when building it. The car when built was loud and rowdy, a beast. Now I have taken the edge off that by adding one of Bens quiet mufflers and installed a fresh air fan in the cabin to cool off the driver. I love my car but I do have to drive it with ear plugs and at times she can be a bit cantankerous and as such I really hesitate to drive any distance.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: eric9144 Oct 7 2020, 10:44 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17027 Yes mine has the cut out but it's more like a modified LE valence--the one the currently sell is slightly different @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19195 has that one on his car (I believe it also has the cut out)

Pic:

Posted by: Coondog Oct 7 2020, 11:26 AM

I was running this one for a while but I wasn’t getting enough airflow for cooling as I live in the desert. I replaced it with a Oscar bumper and a PMS spoiler

Posted by: slivel Oct 7 2020, 12:45 PM

From track only car to street hotrod. I added an interior, full exterior refresh and repaint, muffler, and softened the spring rates. It's loud on full throttle and high rpm, but as reasonable short drive toy. No heater, no wipers, no radio, still has the fire system and the 3.4 makes probably 260 hp at the wheels with the muffler installed (dyno at 290 rwhp with open exhaust).

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 7 2020, 12:51 PM

Nice builds gentlemen.

How much interior sound deadening are you all running?

What would you do differently next time?

Posted by: john77 Oct 7 2020, 01:02 PM

Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19195

Is the spoiler you're running now this one?

https://patrickmotorsports.com/collections/bumpers-spoilers-valances-rocker-panels-fenders-hoods-deck-lids/products/bod-914-gt-fswoc

My car already has a steel front bumper with the cut out, but it's a bit ratty and needs to be rechromed so I may switch to an FG with the cutout once the flares are welded on.

Posted by: Coondog Oct 7 2020, 06:14 PM

Yes Sir

Posted by: Coondog Oct 7 2020, 06:21 PM

Took out back pad, installed dynamat and low pile carpet. Very noticeable noise reduction.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 7 2020, 06:36 PM

Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19195 - will likely go that route.

Posted by: Gint Oct 7 2020, 06:40 PM

Oowwww.... @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19195 Who did those seats?

Posted by: Coondog Oct 7 2020, 08:25 PM

Patrick Motor Sports.

Posted by: Gint Oct 7 2020, 09:00 PM

Stocking item or build to order?

Posted by: Coondog Oct 7 2020, 09:06 PM

One off for my car. Leather imported from Italy.

Posted by: Gint Oct 7 2020, 09:08 PM

Very nice. I like those a lot.

Found your thread on the subject. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=338091&

Posted by: davehg Oct 8 2020, 12:38 AM

I have one build under my belt, a 3.2, and another now underway, a 2.7 twin plug. There is no way I will come out ahead on either one as I am paying to have the work done, and I am a bit of a perfectionist in making sure things are done right, which always cost.

Wise advise in this thread to buy someone else’s Completed conversion if your goal is coming out well financially. Both of mine will collectively top $100k by the time I’m done but hey - I’ll have two awesome cars to play with. But I would not spend the $$$ to do a 3.6 or 3.8 as it makes more fiscal sense to buy one that someone else has done properly and save the cost and time.

The 914 conversions are now completely acceptable in the Porsche world. Sure, a pure 914-6 is highly prized, and many still turn their nose up at Renegade and Subaru Conversions, but who cares? It helps when RGruppe co-founder Freeman Thomas has a -6 3.2 conversion, and Porsche pop stars like Magnus Walker have been adding several Teeners to their collections.

While I am still underwater, at least I got in before it got completely insane I guess. I had these built for me to my tastes but with some eye towards keeping them in the Porsche GT mold, but it’s my money and I sorta kinda don’t give a rats ass what purists or others think, though I do get high fives from those I respect.

Do it for you, and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks (except your missus when she finds out what you really spent).

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 8 2020, 02:34 AM

Thanks for the post and pictures Dave. Very cool.

2.7 twin plug the narrow body I assume?

Posted by: eric9144 Oct 8 2020, 09:42 AM

It kind of begs the question--with the massive up surge in the parts required to do conversions where that will drive the market.
10-15 years ago you could convert a 4 to a 6 for "reasonable" money... not so much now, donor engines that used to be well under 10k in running condition are now being listed at $20-30k... a number that probably exceeds total cost to do a good quality conversion from a decade back.


Amen to that brother!

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 8 2020, 10:49 AM

I am lucky... or maybe unlucky.. I am not too sure. My wife doesn't get too upset about what I spend on my 914, as long as I spend money on HER 914 too.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 8 2020, 12:17 PM

with all of the above.

Suspect we may see a day—or are already there—where the six conversions are more acceptable to many Porsche enthusiasts than (newly) modified real 914-6s. I like modified cars, so I never have and still don't care if someone modifies the cars, but I am not sure I'd be able to bring myself to do it to a really nice original car anymore—no matter what year or engine.

The cool thing is that the Porsche market makes space for hot rods—and I think there are a lot of us who would rather have a hot-rod 914-6—whether mild or wild—than a dead-stock concours car even if respect the survivors and understand why they will always pull top dollar. I view them as permission slips.



This also resonates. A number of the parts used for my conversion were a lot more attainable when I started the process in 2010~, but there are other tipping points as well—age of these engines as well as increased mileage as well as increased interest/buyer pool. Was speaking with an engine builder recently, who mentioned one of the "weapons grade" 911 engine builders now starts at $75k for a "big block" 911 engine (3.5-40, I am guessing?), and won't touch mag cases anymore—because the latter aren't engine rebuilds...they're engine restorations now.

We are beyond lucky to have the cottage industry of parts suppliers that we do for so many of the parts needed for these cars, whether for stock, modified, or conversions. And I'll include non-Porsche engine conversion parts in that equation.

Posted by: racer914 Oct 8 2020, 01:01 PM

I'm doing the same. I have the 2.4 motor and will use the 901. Just a street hot rod for me and I'm looking forward to getting it on the road. I've had 2 other 914/6's and I just can't stay away from them.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 8 2020, 02:46 PM

Ugh...I understand it, but ugh.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Oct 8 2020, 03:08 PM

Yup. I have the inovices to prove that. But . . . . somebody has to do it. They ain't making them anymore.





When you start talking about 6.0L+ maybe then we can call it a big block

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 8 2020, 03:20 PM

Yeah, I know. This started up as something of an inside joke among early 911 hot rodders as they tried to differentiate hot rods between the early engine purists (2.0-2.4 or maybe 2.5-2.8) and those swapping in 3.2s, 3.6s, and 3.8s. So they called them small blocks and big blocks—which is humorous not only because of the fact a typical small block Chevy is 350ci or 5.7 liters, never mind the big blocks, but also because the "block" is a crankcase that really didn't change in terms of dimensions—though it sure got heavier with the (arguable) first "big blocks" in aluminum for the 930 and (mainline) 911 SC.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 8 2020, 03:26 PM

Anyway, to the OP's question, it is a question and one I wonder about from time to time (mainly as I really need to do an agreed upon value insurance policy).

I haven't seen a "benchmark" or high watermark sale of a subtle six conversion, but it seems like the high market for a fantastic weapons grade/flared six conversion with all the "right" stuff might be $90-100k to a buyer who understands the cost to build one, while the low end might be $70-80k (for the screaming deal, or a car with some but not too many needs)? I don't know where that leaves a really nice subtle hot-rodded six conversion…but I don't think it's in the same ballpark—yet. So maybe the range is $30-35k on the low end to $45-50K on the high end? So, about half? But, again, I can't point to a single benchmark sale.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 9 2020, 08:05 AM

An agreed to value policy is critical for anything like this, and I would argue for any classic in today’s market.

It does seem to me that homebrew, even if exceptionally well done as a good number iof you have turned out, conversions are in the $25-45 range.

I can totally get why these builds tend to escalate. I was staring at the Fresno 914 yesterday (“just” putting a 2 L / 4 in) and found myself thinking that if it goes down to bare metal at some point it’s going to trigger a set of follow on work that makes the “might as well” and “now is the time” list of build options a very slippery slope.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 9 2020, 10:41 AM

^ Agreed. "#3" and "#4" narrow body six conversions do seem to be in the range you mention, or about the same as nice and really nice 914 2.0 fours—yet less than the best 4s.

I suspect a price might go higher for a "#1" or "#2" NB six conversion offered in the right environment (BaT?). But that's just a guess, as the only super nice narrow sixes I've seen come up for sale are real 914-6s.

Posted by: gereed75 Oct 9 2020, 10:50 AM

Mine is a hot rod driver quality original six. Very happy with it and it presses all the right buttons for me.

I am just happy to see that the market now recognizes just about all of the 914 variants including race cars (sorry wild custom variants, you are still not there, and probably never will be)

I equate the weapons grade 914 conversions to the conversion of mid year aircooled SC 911’s to long hood RS conversions. These seem to currently be economically viable as you see some spec cars being built for sale and I guess making money in the $120 x 150,000 range. The six conversions are not far behind. I think they will get there but the market is smaller.

Nice thing is that is where a lot of good 3.0/3.2 engines come from that end up in six conversions

Posted by: pencap914 Oct 9 2020, 10:53 AM

I'm just starting my 914/6 conversion, and needless to say it's been intimidating seeing these "weapons grade" builds that cost several times my annual salary. I certainly respect these builds, I'm sure a 914 with a hotrod 3.8 "big block" is one hell of a ride.

Regardless of cost, I think I would rather have a "small block" 914. If I wanted a muscle car, I would have gotten a Corvette, or (insert other Detroit iron here). Big block weapons grade 914's and more modest builds seems to be a similar dispute as the 427ci vs 289ci engine in the Shelby Cobra. Both equally respectable, the 427 Cobras seem to get a lot more attention and certainly sound and look more impressive. The 427s are more common, and seem to fetch more coin in a sale. However, I get more excited when I see a 289 Cobra. I've never driven either one, but I would imagine the lighter weight and more tame engine would make it more confidence inspiring to drive in a winding canyon or track.

Its interesting to me to see how these big block weapons grade builds sell for multi x that of a more modest build (See the recent 2.7L 914 that sold for less than 30k on BAT.)

I would build a hot rod 4cyl for my 914, but they just don't make the same noise as the 6. I originally wanted to find a 2.2 - 2.4 engine for my build, and I purchased a long block 2.4 (err, short block... engine doesn't turn over... long story) but ended up finding a 2.7l engine for a decent price since they're more common.

I do plan on installing steel fenders and 5-lug conversion, because that was always the dream of mine since high school, and I simply have not outgrown that. I wouldn't call this build of mine a "weapons grade" but I also wouldn't call it a stock 914/6 replica. It falls somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Call it, a "spicy consumer grade(?)" build.

I chose the lowly profession of Civil Engineer, which means I have to keep a close eye on my budget. If I do a lot of the labor myself, and be patient about sourcing used parts for a decent price, I think I could get by with a car that will cost me $30-$35k. I certainly don't think it would be worth building it then trying to sell it off for a profit. I would be selling my time for free.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Oct 9 2020, 11:08 AM

I have looked the other way on this thread long enough, hoping its terminology would go away, but it seems to be proliferating the longer this thread lingers. "Weapons grade" is not cute, not flattering - it can be offensive to some. It stigmatizes and mischaracterizes our cars.

References to "weapons grade" and "914" in the same sentence are spreading the wrong message about our cars. Can we just forget this term please? Lets agree to not glorify violence. Pick a more respectful term.

914s are not weapons. With all the recent press about mass shootings and related mayhem, lets not associate our cars with violence.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 9 2020, 01:21 PM

Marty's car. Weapon of mass destruction.


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Posted by: Sway Bar Oct 9 2020, 01:46 PM

I don't know if this is WMD...more like Greek Mythology...call it at Chimera I love it. I love all builds, especially if one undertakes it themselves.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 9 2020, 02:10 PM

Well, if that phrase ever applied to a 914, it would be that car for sure.

Posted by: john77 Oct 9 2020, 03:32 PM

The gold 2.9 twin plug on bringatrailer just sold for $93K

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-porsche-914-6-8/

Posted by: Mueller Oct 9 2020, 03:55 PM

Bought by a Ikonick Motors in Florida, aka Barry Skolnick. The place is listed as a dealership, could be for tax/registration use.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 9 2020, 04:54 PM

That sold for almost what I thought it would. I was guessing $100K tops. That is a nice car and they will surely enjoy it. I hope they drive it.

Posted by: john77 Oct 9 2020, 05:31 PM

Yeah, it looks like a gorgeous build. Seems like a good deal, no way you could pay someone to build one for less than that.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 10 2020, 06:49 AM

Going back up for sale I bet, $125k plus asking.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 10 2020, 06:51 AM

Hi Jeff, I borrowed that phrase from Keith Martin at SCM

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 10 2020, 08:41 AM

Here we go;

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-porsche-914-46/

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 15 2020, 08:33 AM

One day left but still quite cheap as far as these go. Last two hours will tell.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 15 2020, 09:15 AM

Still quite cheap indeed.

If the paint is anywhere near as nice as it looks in the photos I checked out (didn't do a deep dive) and the engine work is as good as the lineage of hands suggest, the paint, engine conversion, and engine would be $50-75k to duplicate on their own. It's a great color, too. Most of the stuff I'd change can be filed under "fun details/personal preferences": returning the window/targa trim to stock, stock mirrors, bare metal instead of red calipers, 15x6 deep sixes, interior freshening, etc.—stuff that can be done over time while enjoying a six-cylinder 914.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 15 2020, 12:00 PM

To Jeff's earlier point, I appreciate him raising it and can see that—as a while back we decided to remove a lot of references to certain subjects in the writings we publish as a result of some of the more toxic discussions of late...I feel "Porsche" reading should be an escape at some level, and that some subjects distract from THE subject folks show up for.

And yet, as an editor I understand the application of the term for the discussion at hand—and instantly understood it to mean 3.6/3.8/4.0 builds with flares and all the fixins. So I can see this one from both sides...

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 15 2020, 12:01 PM

I certainly did not intend to offend anyone by using the SCM term.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 15 2020, 12:28 PM

I was not the least offended by the phrase. To me it just meant well built and designed to race or drive aggressively with all of the bells and whistles.

Posted by: cali914 Oct 15 2020, 11:45 PM

30 rear wheel hp just by swapping muffler? What type of dyno were you on? That Black is super sexy.......

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 16 2020, 10:03 AM

This one just got interesting as a more subtle 914-6 build per the title of this thread. Price has nearly doubled to $30k with 3 hours to go…

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 16 2020, 01:04 PM

I have to embarrassingly admit I’ve been watching this one in real time

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 16 2020, 04:50 PM

$43,000 no sale.

Seems to me like it should have sold.

Posted by: Gint Oct 16 2020, 04:58 PM

I had that in my head at $40k. It's a great build. But to be worth more than that, it needs a fair amount of finish work. Unless a 2.2S engine with miles on it is worth substantially more than I thought. Maybe it is...

Posted by: Mueller Oct 16 2020, 04:59 PM

Would like to know what the reserve was. How close was that $43K?

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 17 2020, 10:30 AM

$43k no sale is an interesting data point for "more subtle" six conversions as the mechanicals/conversion are very appealing, and the paint looks really nice in a great period color.

I don't blame the seller for keeping the car, and think some "easy" things held this 914 back from generating higher bids with that crowd—stock brightwork and mirrors, brake calipers that aren't painted red, deep sixes with period tires, a period Momo with a horn button, a fresher interior, a rear valance for a sport muffler, no engine-side sound insulation or factory -4 insulation, etc etc. All details/matters of taste, but the 914s that seem to do well nail the details and are more or less "factory right" plus widely accepted or liked upgrades such as 16-inch Fuchs or Euro lenses. This car seems to have the expensive, time-consuming stuff (paint/body and six conversion) very right, and would have been a steal at $43k in my view…as the new owner can sort the easy/fun stuff to their liking while enjoying the car.

Posted by: Gint Oct 17 2020, 06:51 PM

$43k + fees = $45k. The best case scenario for that car is $50k. I Looked closely at those pictures. While the paint is presentable, it's a driver quality respray, not a bare metal job. That car needs lots of sorting to get any more than that in my opinion. We all have opinions and I don't want to argue about it though. For some reason this is like the accident on the other side of the highway that I can't look away from.

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 17 2020, 07:17 PM

Akers is a well known business in Seattle. The engine in today's dollars? The trunks are dissapointing. The birds nest wires where the jack should be? The car has no antisway bars. East coast. Ship or roll the dice til you get home? The $ adds up. You get a ticket trying it out on the way home and give the handwritten BOS to the Trooper. potencial major time suck hassle. 'Insurance card please'. Then you go to change the title and endure the out of state inspection. Then a wife that doesn't 'get it'? 50+ large? then you start spending more money while you're in there cleaning it up.

Posted by: mountainroads Oct 17 2020, 09:39 PM

Many folks, including myself, have misjudged how expensive and time consuming these projects can be. Perhaps I'm too much of a purist and you can color me dumb for asking, but why oh why would you take the (presumably) functioning MFI off of a 2.2 S motor and replace with PMO carbs, as the BAT ad states? That's almost sacrilege

- MR

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 17 2020, 09:53 PM

Answer = Sound and the original ones had carbs.

That said, personally im going FI.

Posted by: mountainroads Oct 18 2020, 11:42 AM

Honest discussion questions. Not being argumentative:
1) The sound is different? I've had several cars with both and it never occurred to me there was any sound difference at all if using the same air box(s). I reinstalled the MFI on a 911-E after driving with Webers for a while. Although I *thought* the MFI was more responsive, I didn't notice any sound difference. (Not that I was specifically paying attention for that.)
2) I get the "look" thing, but then why bother with an original 911-S engine?

- MR

Posted by: Gint Oct 18 2020, 11:59 AM

It sounded like seller of that car on BAT was not actually the owner. And the engine swap elements described in that auction text left a lot to the imagination. It's quite possible that whoever sold the 2.2 engine took the MFI off of it to use on something else before selling the engine. Again, just another opinion.

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 18 2020, 08:50 PM

Agree that the details left a lot to be desired including what the scoop was with the engine. It just felt a bit all thrown together.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14145 - The 911 engine with carbs on it have a different intake noise in my experience. Some prefer the sound, others are scared of fuel injection systems.

Posted by: Matty900 Oct 18 2020, 10:11 PM

Currently driving home from picking this one up in Las Vegas that I couldn't build for anything close to the purchase price.
Not sure what I will ultimately do with the car but the plan at the moment is to learn everything I can with this one.


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Posted by: Tdskip Oct 19 2020, 06:43 AM

That is a lot of 914. Specs?

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 19 2020, 06:44 AM

Next up: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-porsche-914-20/

Not sure this one is going to break $30K. Local to SoCal in case anyone in the local mafia is interested.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Oct 19 2020, 08:31 AM

I'll make two comments:

1) At least the battery is in the right spot.

2) That car is exactly why I've chosen to build my own.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 19 2020, 09:34 AM

That car needs some work. I would think $25K is a decent buy.

Posted by: mountainroads Oct 19 2020, 10:55 AM

Interestingly, the builder took the trouble to move the ignition to the left of the steering column. Not an easy conversion detail.

- MR

Posted by: Tdskip Oct 23 2020, 09:46 PM

Over $36k out the door to the buyer.