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Posted by: 930cabman Nov 14 2020, 05:07 PM

I cut my wrenching teeth on VW bugs and Type 3's back in the '70's and '80's. Been somewhat out of the game for several years looking to rejoin into the 914 world. Generally the easiest way for more kick is to increase displacement. Short of going to turbo's what is available as far as big bore kits. I am not interested in going the 6 cylinder route or chevy small block route. The car will be street only, but I need speed.

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 14 2020, 05:38 PM

Welcome to the forum.

This is a well covered topic and search is your friend here. One easy thing to do is to Google “big bore engine 2256 914world.com” but drop the quotes when you paste that into Google.

Getting above 2.0L and having it last requires thought, effort and money. I’d start with what your goals are and how much actual budget you have, that will open or close doors.

Posted by: Nogoodwithusernames Nov 14 2020, 08:41 PM

Head over to shoptalkforum and dig into the type4um lots of good big builds there. like 2.7-3.0 liters from Raby and some other more plausible builds too.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 15 2020, 03:01 PM

Speed costs $$, how fast do you want to go. Universal statement

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 15 2020, 04:17 PM

How fast and budget? A 2056 with 120-130hp can be built for $5-6k

Posted by: Cairo94507 Nov 15 2020, 04:40 PM

Bleyseng just nailed it. Go with a 2056 and stock fuel injection with a mild cam and nice exhaust. Reliable, strong and pretty bullet proof. Heat is the enemy of these engines and going large displacement on a 4 is a recipe for engine death unless you spend the money to do it right and keep it cool.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 15 2020, 05:11 PM

Thanks guys, car I am considering is a carbed version 1.7. I will make the trip next weekend and bring her home if the rust is not too bad. Can these cases be used for a 2056 kit? I am very new to the 914 world. Been a 356 and 911 guy for many years.

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 15 2020, 08:46 PM

Yes, the cases are the same. The 2.0l crank and rods are different but the same ones sre used in BW Baywindow buses. The 2.0L heads are totally different and the can be bought new from Len@HAM that are set up for HP. If you can find a Djet or ljet set up For Fuel injection thats one way to go. Carbs is another

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 15 2020, 09:05 PM

I thought those are only available at lnengineering now and around $3,850, no?

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 15 2020, 09:29 PM

New 2.0L AA casting are reworked by Len with all new parts. Roughly $1700 for a set which I am running myself in my 2056 engine. I have 44x38 valves too

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 15 2020, 10:03 PM

how much more hp with len’s heads and the 2057 set up with d-jet? i can tell you after my first a/x weekend that while the 914 handed far better than most of the hot hatches there this weekend they best me by 5 sec or so and it has so much to do with the quick acceleration out of the corners, which i was sorely lacking—. very i interested in doing this by next weekend. i can run SCCA heritage , even with the 2056 as long as the case is the original stock case, can’t turbo it.

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 15 2020, 10:49 PM

I set my car up for AXing and track use in 2004. The 120hp is nice but installing a shorter 3rd and 4th gears made the difference plus being able to rev to 6000 rpms. BUT a 914 in AXing isn’t about acceleration but carrying speed thru the corners. Money spent on suspension upgrades and tires makes a huge improvement

Posted by: Superhawk996 Nov 16 2020, 07:35 AM

I used to AX my Miata as SCCA C street (stock) level in the 90s. Had the opportunity to ride with former SCCA Nationals winner driving my car. It was humbling. There was ton's of time left in my car. All about the driver, technique, and maintaining momentum. And that was with my lard as dead weight in the car too! 914's are no different.

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 16 2020, 08:09 AM

no doubt i have a lot to learn!!! i am sure there is a some more time in the car and a few tweaks to be made . i let an instructor drive the car for a run and he was not used the the long throw of the clutch in a 914, but i watched his line and how he came thru several turns and braking points etc., so then my next run was much faster, inf fact i ran faster than he did, but that is just me knowing my car better than him. if he took it out for 3-4 more runs no doubt he would have knocked off a good 5-6 seconds i am sure. - hey i went out to learn and get a better feel for what the car can do, it’s very tight and well balanced, with the sport bilistein and 205/55-16 on 7” rear and 6” front, it’s super tight. i never slid or lost traction in front, just the rear on a couple tight corners, came in too tight on wrong line, but it comes back fast, i never felt like i was going to spin out or loose it, but i could feel towards the last run i was getting a good feel of how far i could push it. being only 3-4 seconds behind a couple of the mazda’s , bmw and suby in our novice class and looking at the times of the fret class drivers i can see it could be competitive
looking forward to seeing home much i can improve next year with learning how to adjust the suspension etc, like, if i dropped the rear one notch it would add an extra degree of negative camber and i think i could hold those tight corners a bit better.
any other suggestions are welcome !!

Posted by: VG-914 Nov 16 2020, 08:14 AM

Now-a-days, you need to start keeping an eye on resale value. So many 914‘s has been chopped up and modified, that we are starting to see the purebreds are seeing some real numbers in resale, as they have never seen before. All I ask is that if you pick up at 914 that is stock, you don’t bastardized it too much… Find one that’s already been chopped and do your dirty work! Sorry - but I like ‘em stock. Too much street fun as they are. If I needed some speed, I’d be sitting in a WRX.

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Nov 16 2020, 10:49 AM

great advice for the O.P. and i take it as well., unless it is already too far out there already,

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 16 2020, 12:53 PM

That's why I like a 2056 w/Djet as it looks totally stock, Sway bars and shocks can help alot in AXing plus bigger Tbars and rear springs.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 16 2020, 01:00 PM

".....I need speed...."


What does this mean? The 914 with a four jug will not be fast but might be quick and nimble.

Like Geoff said you'd have to play with the gear box for it to be really quick. If you want it for the street I'd say stick with the short stroke rods but go big jug....like a 1911 with L-jet.

Forget the carbs...bad idea

My .02 from experience.

PS.

Once you go flat six you'll never look back.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 16 2020, 01:03 PM

That has been my objective with restorations for many years. I have done minor modifications (always easily reversible) and always work towards getting close to factory specs. The specimen I am looking at appears generally stock, might even have original paint, but not taken care of for many years.

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 16 2020, 02:09 PM

Just these days a flat six will totally empty your wallet just like a wooden boat.

Posted by: 914_teener Nov 16 2020, 02:52 PM

Agreed.

However on the slippery slope of life what is more profound than the sound of a flat six behind you through a twisty road and or a well done Cris Craft Runabout floating down the river and lake of life. Besides a built four is two thirds the way to a six.

I'd agree nowdays with the post:

Keep the 914 stock and if you want a flat six buy a 986 or 987 while they are still reasonable.

You can't take it with you.....any of it.

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 16 2020, 02:55 PM

Yes, keep em stockish as long as its reversible the world is yours as long as you have the money to spend.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 16 2020, 06:45 PM

A 914-6 clone might be in my future. I have been a Porsche guy since the early '70's, including two 1954 speedsters, #74 and #159 out of the production run of 200, These days a 356 SC, 1975 911S and 1987 turbo cab are in the stable. As retirement nears I am looking for a project needing some panel replacements. I have always had fun with oxy/acy welding, but these days a little Lincoln MIG fills the bill.

thanks to all for the feedback

Posted by: VaccaRabite Nov 17 2020, 03:02 PM

If you have the money to build a 6 and put it in a 914 these days you likely have the money to do whatever you want to your 914. A quality 6 build for the engine and accessories is about the same as an entire new small car. Not a fancy one, but still...

Zach

Posted by: Superhawk996 Nov 17 2020, 03:56 PM

As I currently find myself cash flowing a 2.4L rebuild I can only agree with your premise.

And your point is? For the price of a Lambo I could also buy a nice house. It's always been this way. When I was younger I desperately wanted a six but couldn't afford it back in the day.

When I had my first teener back in the late 80's I was broke and could barely afford to rebuild my 1.7L when it lost oil pressure. Actually, I couldn't afford it . . . and did it on a credit card since the teener was my daily driver at the time. Now later in life, I find myself in the fortunate position of being able cash flow it over time .

It's all relative. Spread out over two or three years, it doesn't hurt quite as much.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 17 2020, 05:00 PM

Who wants an entire new small car? I can see a somewhat built 2.4 or 2.7 tucked into the 914. Heading to pickup the "new"914 this weekend, its about a 6 hour ride (one way), but the price is right. I have worked hard and played my cards right for 50+ years so I suppose having some disposable income is fine.

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 17 2020, 06:23 PM

I passed on my chance to install a six years ago with a 2.4 I picked up and then sold it to fellow member who installed it in a 914 conversion.
These days I'd just buy a converted 914 with all the stuff done, way cheaper.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Nov 17 2020, 08:20 PM

Sure take the easy way out

Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 18 2020, 03:04 PM

For the cost of what I have in my 914-6 4.0, I could have a new GT4. But even when it is a limited production run like a GT4, it is still a sterile, no personality car that anyone can buy if they have the money.

My 914 is unique, and reflects my personality and preferences as to what I want. There is not another one out there like mine. Plus, when someone disses it, I can look them in the eyes and say....

"You bought yours, I BUILT mine."

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 18 2020, 04:44 PM

True enough

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 18 2020, 04:47 PM

Clay, at least two positive things: "you built it" and "as to what I want". Keep up the good work. If the funds are available, why not use them? Personally. I will be gifting my kids enough, if a six will be in the 15 - 20k range, who cares

BTW, I assume a 2.7 can be shoe horned into the 914 engine bay?

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 18 2020, 07:43 PM

Easy peasy, its all the 911 stuff the must be installed ie oil tank, maybe oil cooler etc

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 18 2020, 09:17 PM

Oil tank, Wiring, front mounted engine cooler, lines and fittings to get the oil back-and-forth to the front mounted oil cooler, thermostat, Engine 10 in seals , revised engine mount in some brain damage on the right way to approach that, exhaust, shifter set up and linkage, muffler...

It all adds up. Quickly. And in large amounts of cubic dollars.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 19 2020, 12:04 AM

"Easy peasy", I can work with that. If it was done 50 years ago, how hard can it be today. The $$ just need to be worked out it terms of enjoyment.

Thanks to all for the replies, we are scheduled to pickup the hulk this weekend and a 2.7 just might find its way into the bed of my F150. Its on the way and the right price

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 19 2020, 08:30 AM

Go for it but keep in mind that mag case engines can be spendy to get fully/properly rebuild (if that is eve needed).

Keep us posted and good luck!

Posted by: bbrock Nov 19 2020, 09:13 AM

Well that escalated quickly.

Honestly, I think the stock 2L engine makes for a nearly perfectly balanced package for a street ride. It makes a light and nimble car with enough pep to put smiles on in the twisties, yet reliable, quiet, and fantastic mileage (easily 30+ mpg) for long touring. However, I seem to be a minority in this crowd in that I'm not addicted to HP and I HATE noise of any kind. Sure, a big four or a six would be a lot more fun for that 5% of the time I like to flog the car hard, but would come at the expense of enjoyment for the other 95%. That's just me though.

Posted by: VaccaRabite Nov 19 2020, 10:02 AM

Yup. Very quickly.
In 5 days the OP went from a 1.7 /4 to a 2.7 /6.

There isn't anything wrong with that, and it seems like 930cabman may have at least a little experience restoring cars.

This build is going to have DWD though. Does not even have the car yet and already the "while I'm in there" has started.

Zach

Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 19 2020, 12:34 PM

You don't absolutely have to have a front mounted oil cooler. I don't have one. But you do need a bigger oil cooler if you want to put it in the back. The 4.0 has two 964 coolers mounted in the rear, one on each side. Temps run 190 to 210. They went up a little when I put the rear valance on.

For a 2.7, a 911 Carrera cooler mounted in the left rear corner works fine. I ran one on the 2.4 for years with no issues.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 20 2020, 06:39 PM

Yes, about 40+ years wrenching on mostly VW and Porsche. Years ago I did at least several rusted out 356's and Ghia's. Oxy/Acetylene was the standard back then, these days I have a couple MIG machines and have fun with them. A project car is in view and heading to pick it up tomorrow, sight unseen. in boxes. It is a 1.8 liter car, but have an extra 2.7in the shed. Maybe the easy route is to slightly build the 1.8 and go?

thanks to all for the positive replies

Posted by: shag Nov 20 2020, 09:08 PM

What ever you decide to do, enjoy yourself

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 20 2020, 09:24 PM

DWD is Dirk Wrights Disease which a true story from the 90’s. Dirk bought a 914 found a problem and took apart the dash to fix it which lead to the total disassembly of the car. Never put it back together either

Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 21 2020, 05:36 AM

Actually, Dirk Wright took apart his pedal box in a perfectly good, running 914 because it was squeaking. He found minor surface rust under the pedals, and that started the "While I am in there" chain. He sold the car after completely stripping it to a shell.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 24 2020, 05:34 PM

Thanks to all, I brought the rusted hulk home Saturday and am scratching my head??? What have I gotten myself into now?? Rust on top of rust, but I was looking for a project. I have been reading several threads here but do not have a concrete plan yet. The specimen had been dis assembled about 30 years ago and stored in a garage since.

As far as the engine, a 2056 might be the lowest hanging fruit. It came with a 1.8 in several boxes. How hard can it be to get this mess together?

Posted by: Tdskip Nov 25 2020, 09:33 AM

Do you REALLY want an honest answer to that question?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Nov 25 2020, 09:38 AM

Posted by: VaccaRabite Nov 25 2020, 11:48 AM

Pics of the car!

Don't even worry about an engine right now. Fix the body first. Or if its bad enough decide its a parts car and buy a better roller.

Doing the engine first is


Zach

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 25 2020, 12:49 PM

Yes, need to get my daughter to help me get pics from my camera onto the site.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 25 2020, 03:17 PM

Got it, from what I can tell this one is a fair candidate. The frunt and rear trunks are decent, longs with front and rear connections are required as well as trailing arm mountings, ...... Yes, it's going to be an adventure

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 25 2020, 03:28 PM

Is this whats known as the "hell hole", going to be a few hours in here

Posted by: Superhawk996 Nov 25 2020, 03:36 PM

Whoah! You got a project on your hands.

Posted by: mepstein Nov 25 2020, 03:40 PM

Sorry but that’s a parts car.

Posted by: bbrock Nov 25 2020, 03:54 PM

Looks a lot like mine did when I started my project.

Not a parts car but definitely a PROJECT car

Posted by: Superhawk996 Nov 25 2020, 04:10 PM

Let's not forget the words of the legend @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7712

"I look at rust like a diamond in the rough. Rust is afraid of me because it know's it cannot live in my world. Metal becomes submissive because I have confidence in my metal working talents."

Required reading for our newest member of the rust don't scrare me club:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=76791



Indeed!

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 25 2020, 05:44 PM

I was looking for a project, guess I found one at least the price was right $0.00 It has been 30 years since I undertook something similar, but I ain't scared. Both trunks are good, but the entire center section will need attention (replacement). The way I see it is the rocker sections provide the beam to hold the front/rear of the car in alignment. It can get tricky at the front and rear connection points. Also, the suspension mounting points are critical. I have started cutting out small sections and forming new 20ga and welding with a Lincoln 140 MIG. For now I am working on a scissors lift, but will change to something different when it comes to structural work. I have read the thread by Jeff Hail "bringing out the dead"
There will be some trying times, but the reward is worth it.

Wishing all a safe and Happy Thanksgiving

Posted by: bbrock Nov 25 2020, 08:04 PM

I hope you run a build thread to bring us along for the ride.

Posted by: 930cabman Nov 26 2020, 06:32 AM

Yes, I found a way to get pics onto the site. Information is always good and I am more than happy to share the information gained with this adventure. Will be starting with small patches and move into the "tricky stuff". From what I can tell there is a mix of different gauges of sheet steel. I have ordered a few panels from Restoration Design and will be fooling with them.
My plan is to complete the restoration as close as possible to the original construction with regards to panels/overlap/welding.

Posted by: FlatSix Nov 30 2020, 04:49 AM

I'm following this thread with interest.

I have a 1976 which now has a 1.7 with FI and most of the horses have long galloped off.

I'm not sure which direction to go, but I'm really intrigued to follow up more on Bleysengs's post to rebuild it to 2056cc for $5K. Alternatively if anyone has a 2.0 engine for sale I'll be interested to hear from you too...

Oh, the car is solid. In line with the previous posts, attached is a photo of the rear trunk!



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Posted by: 930cabman Nov 30 2020, 12:14 PM

Yep, I am in for the journey now.

It has been a few years since I have undertaken an ambitious project as such. My wife claims there is a pill ....

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 2 2020, 05:59 AM

Had a few hours in the shop today



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Posted by: Frankvw Dec 2 2020, 06:58 AM

wow, respect to you that you are so positive and optimistic about the project.
And the amount of time it will take.....and parts and money and blood, sweat, tears and excuses to buy new tools......
It will be an interesting post to follow to see how you progress.
At least you have a good lift so you are not down on your knees working away through the rust.
Good luck !!!!

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 2 2020, 07:29 AM

That is a project.

Nice job taking it on. Looks like someone already has new sheetmetal in it? Is the red metal on rear bulkhead and Driver Long Inner new or just primer over old metal?

You really want to take a look at adding door struts before you start welding. You'll be amazed at how much stuff moves around when welding. Pull down the chassis measurements from this site or Pelican, and keep a careful eye on them as you go.

http://www.914world.com/specs/bodydims.php

Posted by: VaccaRabite Dec 2 2020, 07:57 AM

you need to brace the doors or you WILL twist the chassis while welding. There are lots of threads with that information in it. But for the most part people ar building stout rods with a turnbuckle in the middle you you can dial in the right amount of load to keep the car square.

Since these cars don't have a roof to add structure welding done along the longs will put a twist in the car. And you won't notice it until the very end when you are trying to re-hang the doors and the gaps refuse to line up, or worse the door refuses to close.

Zach

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 2 2020, 11:04 AM

Thank you Frank, if given the option, why not take the positive/optimistic perspective? Besides, I am older and moving into retirement slowly. Progress is well, I am puttering with several small patches and will move into the structural work at some point soon. A couple of sheets of 18 ga and 20 ga arrived yesterday, looking forward to cutting it up and firing up the Lincoln 140 MIG. I am leaning towards a rotisserie mounted to the bumper attachments for welding in position.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 2 2020, 11:10 AM

Zach,

Thank you, the reinforcing braces are at the top of my list. Back in the '80's I put a '69 Ghia back together and did not align the body at all. The car drove well for many years afterwards, but always had bad door gaps. I am considering utilizing a system that would allow test fitting the doors as progress moves along. Not sure of the method. I am considering a few spreaders at the targa area with nylon binders to hold everything together. Theoretically this would maintain the 25 1/8" number between the windshield header and the targa bar.

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 2 2020, 09:32 PM

5 years and about 20k if you do it yourself.

About that hard.

Have fun.

Posted by: bbrock Dec 2 2020, 09:57 PM

We are off to the races! I think you may even have the shitbox I started with beat.. not by too much but yeah, you win.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 3 2020, 05:42 AM

Thanks for the info and the fuel, I will be driving this restored 914 around the streets of Buffalo next summer.

Posted by: Frankvw Dec 3 2020, 06:01 AM

wow
"Thanks for the info, I will be driving this restored 914 around the streets of Buffalo next summer. "

That would be a super achievement. Maybe the TV shows like Overhauling will make that in 6 months with their big team and all new sponsored parts.....but that is virtually impossible for a one man team in a garage in my opinion.
Even if you have the skills, you will run out of time !
But again, respect for your optimism :-)

Posted by: VaccaRabite Dec 3 2020, 09:48 AM

Don't try and bolt anything to the top of the windshield frame. Its not structural and will just bend as the car twists.

Door latch to upper door hinge, and another from the top hinge to the base of the door sill. When I say hinge, I mean make a plate that bolts into the 3 captive nuts at the top of the hinge. Again, do a search or look in the Classics section. Pics make this easier then trying to describe it.

Zach

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 3 2020, 11:22 AM

Thanks for the heads up, I was hoping to have an easy way to test fit the doors as we go without removing the temporary braces.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 3 2020, 12:28 PM

I don't want to toot my own horn because others have done this before I did - I didn't invent this solution.

But, since I'm lazy . . . check my build thread in my signature. 1st page post #4.

My door braces don't interfere with the doors and I've done all welding with doors in place rather than try to count on measurements and trial fittings.

Posted by: bbrock Dec 3 2020, 02:09 PM

Yeah, I did it too and highly recommend it. Use the upper bolt sockets for the seat belts and weld a big nut to front of the inner long near the speaker boxes. Run your adjustable brace between then ad you'll be able to install doors with the braces on.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 3 2020, 03:21 PM

Hawk, Brent,

Thanks, I have seen these in a few of the threads I have researched, just wasn't sure of the connections at the door hinge end. Can I assume it's a unanimous NO with bracing from the windshield frame?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 3 2020, 03:49 PM

IMHO -- No. There is no structure in the A-pillar / windshield frame. Not at all like a modern car that has to meet roll over impact standards that lead to robust A-pillars. If you look at modern cars - roll over regs are a main reason why the A-pillars have become so wide that they have become a blind spot unto themselves. It takes a lot of structure to support a modern 3500- 6000 lb vehicle upside down! Hmm . . . wasn't weight the subject of another thread . . . but I digress.

The 914's targa bar is the structural element meant to keep you from having the car crush you in a rollover.

It was actually pretty advanced for it's time. Many convertibles of that era would simply roll over and crush the occupants.

Posted by: bbrock Dec 3 2020, 05:07 PM

^^^^^^

I think bracing to the frame will get you nowhere other than a twisted tub AND bent windshield frame. It really is a weak structure. The passenger side on mine was bent down a few mm from people hefting their lard asses out of the seat by pulling on the frame over the years. I just grabbed it and pulled it back to factory spec measurements by hand.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 3 2020, 05:42 PM

I posted on PP before seeing it here but in my, non educated opinion, to replace that much structural metal, you need a frame jig (like Jeff Hail built) or Celette bench.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 3 2020, 05:59 PM

It looks like Jeff H has the corner on reconstructing the 914 rustout. I have studied his thread several times and are planning a similar strategy.

Its all math, weather geometry or structural calcs. Good thing my youngest daughter is a math teacher

Posted by: seanpaulmc Dec 3 2020, 07:09 PM

Take a look at the thread "My '74 project" by @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5872 .
I asked the same question and he posted a very detailed shot that will be useful for you.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 5 2020, 03:37 PM

Had some progress in the shop today. I went with a different method of holding the body while she is being cut apart. Old inner long finally gave it up, but not without a fight.

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 5 2020, 09:39 PM

Holy cow.


You should buy that tub from that guy in the UK...for $1,500.


Man...the entire long is kaput.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 6 2020, 06:58 AM

Why would I do such a thing, this is the fun part. Good thing we have RD at our disposal, it would be much more difficult without them

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 6 2020, 07:46 AM

Thats the spirit.

Honestly I was in same position - well maybe not quite as bad. The fun is in fixing stuff that others would simply throw away. For me that true of vintage cars, vintage motorcycles, vintage stereos, vintage tube amps. Whatever. this throw away society we've become accustomed to.

Though - next time I'd buy a tub from CA. The guys in CA have it made.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 6 2020, 08:03 AM

I have a CA tub waiting in the wings. Bare tub $500, shipping, $800. Minimal rust repair, priceless.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 6 2020, 09:37 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825

Now you tell me I've got way more than $1300 "invested" in reproduction sheetmetal And to think some guy got a whole car for just $200 more than that!

By now you should know how stubborn (i.e. dumb) I am. Saving a rusty chassis and building up a Mag case 2.4L that will certinaily cost more than the 3.xL engine you offered up to me a while back.

Nah, the easy way out isn't my thing.

But next time . . . . I certainly would take you up on it.

Posted by: mepstein Dec 6 2020, 10:07 AM

Travis had this engine up for sale. I was second in line but first buyer bailed. As luck would have it, the shop was doing a pickup near to him in AZ so the shipping was sort of free. It's at the machine shop right now - Shop owner bought a machine shop nearby so its getting fixed up to at least a long block. Sometimes even a blind squirrel gets lucky, or something like that...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=343806&hl=engine



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Posted by: Tdskip Dec 6 2020, 10:09 AM

Go Mark go!

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 6 2020, 10:18 AM

Awesome score Mark!

Look at the size of those intake ports! That is outrageous!

Posted by: bbrock Dec 6 2020, 10:26 AM

Love the attitude! I do have some concerns though. Your bracing is interesting, but I don't see any way to adjust. A big advantage of a diagonal brace with turnbuckle is it gives an easy way to adjust the chassis to keep the body measurements in factory spec. It's amazing how rubbery the chassis gets when the outer long is removed. I was able to dial my measurements in literally using only two fingers on the turnbuckle.

Also, as Mark pointed out, removing that inner long takes this to another level. There is no longer any structure maintaining the tub length. You can see in your pic that the floor is sagging which means the length has been shortened so you'll need some kind of fixture to make sure the dimensions are correct and the chassis is straight when the new structure is welded in. You may already have a plan for this and I'm not trying to be negative. Just trying to alert to possible pitfalls the way others have done for me on my build.

Oh, and your rust bucket definitely has mine beat in basket case status

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 6 2020, 11:08 AM

Thanks to all for the (non structural) support. I have built my career on historic building restorations in Buffalo for many years, and all this stuff is the basically the same. Metal/wood/concrete/glass all behave somewhat different, but similar. My basic philosophy has been, "if it was built a hundred years ago, who says we can't build it today". That basically holds true, except the pyramids in Egypt, but thats a story for another day.

The last project I undertook was a 1985 Alfa spider with 12,000 miles and NO rust, great car, but got in the way of the hurricane Sandy flood surge. I removed seaweed from the rear view mirror, it was bad. It took a few years, but she is now alot of fun. Personally this stuff is therapy and I have fun with it. Prior to welding new structurals I will be checking and rechecking the body dimensions and door fits.

Thanks again to all, I will continue to post and am looking forward to running this beast around Buffalo next summer.

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 6 2020, 11:23 AM

I have that 2.4, going into REDRUM... You to DanRoot to Camp914, to Me..

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 6 2020, 05:12 PM

True and true, many Americans simply throw into the trash all kinds of useable items when a repair can be accomplished. Generally speaking one is off their rocker to purchase a Porsche in the first place, more so off their rocker to purchase one in need of repair, and a rust out Porsche, well you get the picture.

Had a couple hours today, cleaned up a prior "partial floor repair" completed with 16ga steel brazed in and sealed with gobs of tar. Getting the tub clean and ready for the new panels is a challenge. I am fabricating plywood patterns fit into the door openings that can be used in place of hanging the doors as rebuilding occurs.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 7 2020, 05:54 AM

Found some original floor and opened up the "inner longitudinal on the passenger side. Selective demolition and discovery phase

Posted by: mbseto Dec 7 2020, 08:55 AM

Wow. Mine was in a similar condition. Got the passenger side rebuilt, currently working on the driver's side. If you are finished by next summer, you will be done before me, but I will look forward to watching your methods. Godspeed.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 7 2020, 01:38 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9065 , was the entire longitudinal in need of replacement? were you posting pics on this site. How is the drivers side

Posted by: pencap914 Dec 7 2020, 02:52 PM

For my door brace, I found an "adjustable link" from Tractor Supply Co, cut it in half then welded it to a thick walled 1" square tubing.

The brace goes from the upper seatbelt bolt hole to a section of angle iron tacked into place on the inside of where the door hinges are, above the heater pipe. Not sure if it was the easiest/cheapest way to do it, but it allowed me to adjust the door gaps with the doors installed.



https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/search/adjustable%20link?

Posted by: pencap914 Dec 7 2020, 03:00 PM

Posted by: draganc Dec 7 2020, 03:14 PM

What’s the deal with us 914 guys?!?!
I had the same view in my garage, 914, e class wagon and........black Cannondale bike.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 7 2020, 06:04 PM

Is that a "homemade" inner longitudinal? what gauge

Posted by: VaccaRabite Dec 7 2020, 06:10 PM

There are clamshells available and long stiffening kits as well.

Once you fix the longs, of your plan is to race the car or add a significant amount of power, consider adding in inner longitudinal reinforcing kit. (I think Mad Dog sells it, maybe others these days.)

Zach

Posted by: mbseto Dec 8 2020, 12:33 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877 , yes, cut the entire long out on both sides - one at a time, of course. Just about to button up the driver's side, need to update my build thread. Link is in my sig.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 8 2020, 06:00 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9065 , I saw you haven't posted in a while, how is progress with your 914? is it on the road and thank you for posting, great work happening at your place

Posted by: mbseto Dec 8 2020, 09:34 AM

I'm overdue for an update. The driver's side long is ready to be buttoned up - the outer layers are assembled, fitted, painted, drilled for rosettes and ready to weld on. I have a heater tube on the way, as soon as it gets here, I will pop it in and button it up. I'll put some more pics up to get up-to-date... Honestly, I'm looking at a couple more years to get it on the road. Family, work, etc, you know the story. Dying to drive it, but having a blast with the metal work.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 8 2020, 09:46 AM

Your metal work looks great, life has a way of doing that often and if you have a wife and or kids spend the time with them. The 914 won't go anywhere

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 10 2020, 07:48 AM

Test fit a few new panels from RD, we have quite a bit of structural work prior to these, but was looking for a little light at the end of the tunnel. I will be opening up the "rear box section" this weekend.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 13 2020, 02:24 PM

More digging in with more rotting steel, to be expected. These cars were cheap and were most generally used all year with salted roads here in the Northeast.

I am optimistic most of the uglyness is currently being exposed.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 14 2020, 07:17 AM

Great work so far.

Indeed . . . . you are an optimist.

Posted by: bbrock Dec 14 2020, 08:56 AM

Did you drag that car out of a salt marsh? Wow! You are in Jeff Hail territory here.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 14 2020, 10:14 AM

Not exactly, but there was no $$ exchange if that's any consolation! I am scratching my head with a few sections in need of replacement. But that makes the victory that much better.

Funny, I have read several rustoration threads and seen many rusted areas that appear difficult to form. Each car seems to rust in different places and to different degrees.

Thanks for the support, I read through your journey, great story

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 17 2020, 02:29 PM

Getting into the real meat now:

Anybody have an extra?

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 18 2020, 04:43 PM

Going to start forming new metal this weekend. We do not have the Celette Bench, but from what I can tell it (simply) gets the chassis in alignment. If that's the case my dad has an awesome set of tools. Does that ring a bell? We are working off a HF scissors lift and have the capability to align the suspension/body points. Stay tuned

Posted by: mepstein Dec 18 2020, 05:00 PM

The shop where I used to work does their larger rustorations on Celettes. Its easer to keep all 3 dimensions true while work it done.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 19 2020, 02:52 PM

A few hours in the shop today

Prepping for a new engine side "U"channel, directly under the battery. Thinking of relocating into the trunk or under the passenger floor board

Posted by: EdwardBlume Dec 20 2020, 07:56 AM

Nice work!

I love fearless people. You rock dude!

Getting back to your motor question. I've had more than a few 914s.

For me, and everyone is different, I enjoyed the relative power,

Plus hard suspension, lightened chassis, and BALANCE. I was Axing at the time, and my old gray car was more than competitive AND FUN.

The power to weight ratio is a ratio with 2 sides.

Whatever you decide, have it your way.

Cheers

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 20 2020, 11:43 AM

Thanks, what is there to be afraid of? I am thinking of 2056 or other 2 liter based engine. There is an extra 2.7 in the shed, but the effort may not be worth it. None of us are getting any younger.
What can be done with this?? barely scrap

This is my first 914, several 356's, 911's and 930. Getting excited for that first ride, summer is coming!

Tomorrow I will get a hand and test fit the passenger door. From what I can see all is good, but the chaps on Apollo 13 thought that too!

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 26 2020, 04:41 PM

In between chores with the snow blower I had a few hours in the shop today

Been fooling with the door gaps, chassis alignment for a few days, I'm liking what we have

Still have a long road, the plan is to "bang it together" and have some seat time this coming summer

Having a decent heated shop with most of the gear makes all the difference

In general the new RD metal is fitting quite good. Measure/check/adjust/measure/.... order of the day

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 27 2020, 06:47 AM

How many guys when in this deep delete the heat tubes? This 914 will never be driven when it's cold. It seems to make sense to simply leave the heat tubes for another project.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 27 2020, 03:22 PM

More cubic hours today, dug out from 18" of snow yesterday. fabricating the inner "U" channel from 18 ga.


Was going to delete the heat tubes but took a ride to Napa and for just over $100. got 10' of straight pipe and the fittings (45 and 90 degree)

Having the RD metal is nothing short of a life saver, without it would be much more time consuming

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 5 2021, 10:39 AM

Progress:

Too bad this section is no longer available

Got lucky, pedal area is reasonably clean/sound

Keeping everything in plane

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 5 2021, 12:54 PM

Keep at it. You've got your work cut out for you. You are a brave soul.

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 5 2021, 02:36 PM

Thank you, a "new" 2 liter basket case motor is on the way from Kentucky. Back to the original post: 2056 with some head work might be the order of the day.

Will the L jet keep up with things or twin Webers. My gut is telling me to try the stock system

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 5 2021, 02:44 PM

You need a sheet metal shrinking press and an English Wheel.

I love the the Emerson quote:

"A brave man is no braver than an ordinary man; he is just braver for 5 more minutes."

Stay brave.

Posted by: rbzymek Jan 5 2021, 03:11 PM

You can run a 2056 with L-Jet with slightly larger injectors but if you start with a 2.0 engine it will have a D-Jet system. I would recommend FI for drivability reasons.

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 5 2021, 03:57 PM

Brave or crazy? approaching retirement a project was in order. The hulk came with a 1.8 with L jet, a 1973 2.0 is on the way from an Ebay purchase, not sure if it's D jet or? Is there a good source for anybody who opens up the heads for improved flow?

thanks all, I am very new to the 914 life and grateful for the assistance/encouragement

Posted by: rbzymek Jan 5 2021, 04:52 PM

[quote name='930cabman' date='Jan 5 2021, 04:57 PM' post='2880714']
[quote name='rbzymek' post='2880704' date='Jan 5 2021, 04:11 PM']
[quote name='930cabman' post='2880687' date='Jan 5 2021, 03:36 PM']
Thank you, a "new" 2 liter basket case motor is on the way from Kentucky. Back to the original post: 2056 with some head work might be the order of the day.

Will the L jet keep up with things or twin Webers. My gut is telling me to try the stock system
[/quote]

You can run a 2056 with L-Jet with slightly larger injectors but if you start with a 2.0 engine it will have a D-Jet system. I would recommend FI for drivability reasons.
[/quote]

Brave or crazy? approaching retirement a project was in order. The hulk came with a 1.8 with L jet, a 1973 2.0 is on the way from an Ebay purchase, not sure if it's D jet or? Is there a good source for anybody who opens up the heads for improved flow?

thanks all, I am very new to the 914 life and grateful for the assistance/encouragement
[/quote)

Len Hoffman is the head resource most people use. Others can advise on the changes required for your 2.0 D-Jet system. I used the 1.8 L-Jet system on my 2056. The L-Jet system uses a vane meter to measure air flow. The D-Jet has a pressure sensor and is an analog speed density system.

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 5 2021, 05:29 PM

I am leaning towards the L jet, measuring air flow sounds better than measuring pressure. I have been researching L jet and D jet systems, they appear similar. Was the L jet used on 1.8 engines and D jet used on 2.0 liter engines?

How would I contact Len Hoffman.

Raby speaks to the air flow, but his stuff is out of my price range.

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 6 2021, 11:31 AM

Got lucky again today, rear floor/firewall on passenger side is reasonably clean. I will be removing most of the "seam sealer" as rust is hiding underneath.

It's better to be lucky than good, but being good doesn't hurt

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 6 2021, 12:00 PM

Don't you just hate when you punch a hole for a rosette weld and then it hangs in the air with noting to weld to?

I thought I was the only one that did that!

Posted by: bbrock Jan 6 2021, 12:09 PM

AFAIK that is right. D-Jet on 1.7 and 2.0L and L-Jet on 1.8L. I believe the L-Jet also has an altitude sensor which would be a big plus where I live. I've never heard the reason they chose two different systems among the 3 engine sizes. Actually 3 systems I guess, if you count the dual Solex carbs on the Euro 1.8s.

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 6 2021, 12:26 PM

I am looking into going the 2056 route with 1.8 case, 2.0 crank/rods, (heads are undecided) and L jet.

Yes/No?

Posted by: mepstein Jan 6 2021, 12:31 PM

Cases are all (basically) the same. Any year works fine.

Posted by: VaccaRabite Jan 6 2021, 02:38 PM

If you are going to use LJet then you need to use 1.7 or 1.8 heads.
This is not an issue, as the heads can be built to your specs. 2.0 heads won't work as the studs for the L-jet will be in the wrong place.

Zach

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 6 2021, 03:32 PM

Thank you, I am new to the 914 life and can use all the help I can get. The rusted hulk came with an EC 1.8, and recently found a GA 2.0 on Ebay, it's on the way. For simplicity I am thinking running the L jet with a big bore kit. I am seeing many of these are junk. The $3.5k pistons/cylinders are not an option for this build. Hopefully someone else makes a decent product

Posted by: 914_teener Jan 6 2021, 03:39 PM

There are no real diffetences with the EC case and the GA cases as previously posted.

Posted by: bbrock Jan 6 2021, 05:10 PM

I'm just curious, but will the 2.0 intake runners not work with L-Jet? I've never seen an L-Jet system in person so don't have a clue.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 6 2021, 05:22 PM

Zach is wrong on this. (Sorry Zach). I have run L-Jet with 2.0 heads. But the 2.0 intake runners have to be tweaked to match the 1.8 plenum, and you have to run slightly longer intake boots between the plenum and the runners. But it all fits and works well. I know there are others on here that have done this too.

For a 2056, you are going to want the http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=244849 throttle body mod, and the bigger Nissan 280ZX injectors. The 1.8 throttle body is way too small for a 2056, and will choke the engine down.

If you run 1.8L heads, you can still build a 2056. Just have 2.0 valves put in the 1.8 heads. The spark plug angle is the only real difference in them. Yes, the plug angle makes the engine perform better, but the 1.8L heads don't suffer from cracking between the valve seat and the spark plug hole. So you give up a little in the HP department, and get some long term reliability.

Clay

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 6 2021, 06:12 PM

I am gaining an education in many things 914, thank you all contributors.

In our inventory pile is a stock 1.8 (minus cylinders) and a 2.0 complete. I will be inspecting both cases and choose the closest to spec. Hopefully the 2.0 crank and rods are serviceable. A new set of pistons/cylinders is a given. Is a mild increase in lift/duration desired for our engines? Is the geometry (plug angle) different from the 1.8 vs the 2.0 head? I had thought about oversize valves/seats. I have been researching hopping up the L jet system.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 6 2021, 06:34 PM

It might be worth it to you to bore out the 2.0 cylinders and order pistons. The metal on the old mahle cylinders is better than many of the newer aftermarket offerings. It’s not always cheaper than new but some of the new cylinders are known for being off spec.

I just got two done for my motorcycle and it was $150 for the pair.

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 6 2021, 06:40 PM

I am assuming they are all cast iron, but the German stuff is probably better in quality. The cylinders I have from the 1.8 are cracked/broken unservicable. Whomever took it apart must have used a bfh. I am hoping the cylinders coming with this new 2 liter are ok, if not I hope used cylinders are available

Posted by: Porschef Jan 6 2021, 07:21 PM

[/quote]


For a 2056, you are going to want the http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=244849 throttle body mod, and the bigger Nissan 280ZX injectors. The 1.8 throttle body is way too small for a 2056, and will choke the engine down.

If you run 1.8L heads, you can still build a 2056. Just have 2.0 valves put in the 1.8 heads. The spark plug angle is the only real difference in them. Yes, the plug angle makes the engine perform better, but the 1.8L heads don't suffer from cracking between the valve seat and the spark plug hole. So you give up a little in the HP department, and get some long term reliability.

Clay
[/quote]

What Clay said...
This is the set up I’m using, as are a couplafew others (Jim Hoylamd, Worn and some I’m forgetting)

I’m using 912 injectors, an enlarged throttle body, and a 123 distributor. Car runs great, the first 30 seconds notwithstanding (maybe a idle speed lever is in order)

The distributor and throttle body made the biggest impact

HTH, Joe

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 7 2021, 12:28 AM

I say keep them. Even if it isn't cold where you are, it's good to be able to defog the windscreen on occasion. And it's a whole lot harder to put the tubes back in after you're finished with the longs!!




The above is right; you can adapt the 1.8's system to fit on a 2.0 motor. Or find 912E parts; those used a 2.0 914 motor with L-jet. But good luck with that since they only EVER made 2099 of them.

One thing I would strongly suggest: Find a wide-band O2 meter to make sure it doesn't run lean under any RPM and load combination. You really do not want to run the engine lean.




https://newsite.hamheads.com/

You can find the heads he designed at the Type 4 Store. Not cheap, but they are brand-new castings.

https://lnengineering.com/type-4-store/cylinder-heads.html

--DD

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 7 2021, 09:04 AM

I kept the heat tubes, never know what the future holds.

Where did I see a guy was looking at adapting Alfa spider throttle body? We have a bunch of early '80's Afla FI stuff in the shed, I will have to dig it out.

Still somewhat heavy with the structural metal work, planning is good

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 7 2021, 11:10 AM

Getting closer to having the passenger side complete


I have been lucky to be able to sneak away from the office for an hour or so

Next up is completing the additional structural (double layer) to the engine side

Being careful to stagger the splices and fit everything reasonably tight. 18ga across the board

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 10 2021, 09:30 AM

Double layer to the inner half (engine side) of the long extensions


Time and patience

Checking, re measuring, re checking, got things within a 2mm. From what I gather from the factory book 2mm is the number

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 10 2021, 12:18 PM

Inner section all welded and primed



Got the double long section wrapped up, plug weld the outer and move on

Cover fit, ready for plug welds/primer and on to the next project

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 14 2021, 12:24 PM

Passenger long just about complete

Fitting the new RD door jamb and having the passenger door latch for the first time in 30 years, VICTORY

No photo yet, but I was able to test fit the targa roof panel, fits great. Also, I made a template fitting the windscreen frame and targa bar. Checked it from side to side, all is good. I used cardboard then 3/8" AC plywood. from what I can tell, this double checks several body dimensions/geometry

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 28 2021, 09:15 AM

Yep, I went and did it, made the jump for a /6 conversion. There is this 2.7 short block laying around the shop, getting moved everyday because it's in the way. I placed an order with MB911 for his oil tank and engine tin to get the conversion started. I am looking for a Western New York shop to fix a few broken head studs and get the 2.7 along the path. In my spare time I got started on the drivers side:

Kind of reminds me of dissecting a frog in grade school

Posted by: Shivers Jan 28 2021, 09:35 AM

Cool

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 29 2021, 05:57 PM

Metal work is moving forward. I made the decision to jump into the /6 conversion. Dropped off a 2.7 short block to a local engine builder today. Oil tank and engine metal is on the way from MB911. Researching engine mounts, exhaust, carbs or CIS, ......

Still planning on seat time this summer

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 1 2021, 01:23 PM

And I was thinking the drivers side was in better shape, fooled again!!

From what I can tell, these trailing arm mountings are not being reproduced, if so please forward the contact information. Otherwise we are re creating from scratch

Not for the faint of heart, but none of this is

Posted by: 914_teener Feb 1 2021, 01:40 PM

Curious....no rust encapsulator for the internal parts or primer for the inside structural peices?

I think RD makes that peice but sometimes they are out and need to build inventory.

That as you probably know is one of the more important suspension tie in locations.

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 5 2021, 02:09 PM

I was hoping the drivers side would be not as bad, fooled again



The Mad Dog 16 ga. frame reinforcing kit is on the way to add some integrity to the structure. This 914 is for my own use with a 2.7 conversion and 185 tires. Will never see a track while in my possession.

I have been spraying the insides prior to closing things up. Rustoleum rattle can

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 8 2021, 10:55 AM

Digging into the drivers side, front wheel well

All in fun