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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ whats it typically cost to have flares buttwelded
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 17 2005, 03:29 PM
2 flares. is 600 bucks inreasonable????
cut out/weld in new/grind smooth - 80 percent of the way there (body shop does the rest)
guy says it takes a day to a day and a half to do it...
Posted by: Headrage Jul 17 2005, 03:32 PM
Did you get yours on yesterday???
Posted by: scotty b Jul 17 2005, 03:35 PM
Nope. It's nut unreasonable either 
You should figure on paying $50.00 + per hour for someone competent. I've never done a set but I could see it taking up to 2 days. Do the flares have a 90 deg. flange stamped in them to match up to the body,or do they just run into it at a 90?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 17 2005, 03:41 PM
these are flared qtrs that xitspd paid to have done on his racecar - then he cut them off and gave them to me when he went to mongo FG flares
600 isnt unreasonable.... i have 3 weeks to plan 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 17 2005, 03:41 PM
no lip. just metal to metal buttweld
Posted by: ! Jul 17 2005, 04:19 PM
A-ron must be doing major bidness on the street corner..... 
Posted by: scotty b Jul 17 2005, 04:21 PM
| QUOTE (Manfred Z @ Jul 17 2005, 02:19 PM) |
| A-ron must be doing major bidness on the street corner..... |
OR 
Bidness// OR even 
Farm animal insemenation 
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jul 17 2005, 06:22 PM
I sent you a PM with the number of a guy who will come to your house to do the job. He's the same guy that did matts car.
Cheers, Elliot
Posted by: SLITS Jul 17 2005, 06:37 PM
Sheeeze, I thought A-aron Admin was the resident expert on "buttwelding".
Posted by: MattR Jul 17 2005, 08:58 PM
| QUOTE (Elliot Cannon @ Jul 17 2005, 04:22 PM) |
| I sent you a PM with the number of a guy who will come to your house to do the job. He's the same guy that did matts car. Cheers, Elliot |
Thats the guy who quoted 600 bucks
Posted by: Grimstead Jul 17 2005, 09:03 PM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Jul 17 2005, 07:58 PM) | ||
Thats the guy who quoted 600 bucks |
And the same guy who came over to my house yesterday
Thanks again for the contact Matt
Aaron.... 'DO IT'
Posted by: Steve Jul 20 2005, 02:00 PM
Beach boys racing quoted me $1600.00 for all four.
$300.00 a piece is a good deal.
I need to get my car done to.
I'm doing the front and the rear with the AA flairs.
Maybe we can get a group rate??
Posted by: harlenl Jul 20 2005, 02:05 PM
Just received a quote from a local body shop: $1,500 per corner labor!!!
Posted by: Eric_Shea Jul 20 2005, 02:06 PM
$600 = Good Price 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2005, 02:25 PM
there goes an 80 hour paycheck.... 
ill call him and have it set up....
not your typical GT flares...these are hand rolled metal quarters that someone paid big money to have done....just to have them cut off and run huge FG flares....
alot of money just to run 8's and 225's 
but i like it
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 03:02 PM
I will do it for $500+beer. 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2005, 03:03 PM
| QUOTE (914RS @ Jul 20 2005, 02:02 PM) |
| I will do it for $500+beer. |
this guy is an old dude....torch master.... IIRC oxy/acet
thanks for the offer
you would ( i assume ) tig them?
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 03:08 PM
That will warp the shit out of the panel.
Use a TIG or MIG like this:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2005, 03:11 PM
he said he doesnt mig.....(because it is sloppy and ugly)
and he saud TIG was too hot i believe....
so he "stitch" welds with a torch....
big name in the 356/550/911 resto groups 
Posted by: bondo Jul 20 2005, 03:16 PM
Hehe, I tried welding sheet metal with a torch once.. it's what made me go buy a mig. I know there are people who can gas weld sheet metal, and supposedly it's the best way.. but I can't do it. Mig doesn't have to be sloppy and ugly. I've gotten pretty good at it, and with minimal touch up it can be just fine. And it's soooooo much faster! For $600 you can buy a mig...
Posted by: Grimstead Jul 20 2005, 03:24 PM
So Aaron,
Did you call him and set it up?
When he was here, he said he did alot of flares.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2005, 03:26 PM
| QUOTE (Grimstead @ Jul 20 2005, 02:24 PM) |
| So Aaron, Did you call him and set it up? When he was here, he said he did alot of flares. |
havent called and set it up yet....
there is a dissenting opinion on torch welding....
and bill - did he say it was a FLAT 600? or was that an estimate (ie it takes 15 hours instead of 12 etc....)
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 04:23 PM
I don't want to be the single voice against torch welding here. I've welded sheet metal with all three methods and the torch is the worst on the metal and least effecient. Of the three methods, torch welding will heat more surrounding metal than the other two, but all methods have to reach the 2700 degree melting point of steel.
The RS was accomplished entirely with a TIG, but now that I have a MIG, I would likey use it for the flares. I'm making nice welds with the MIG and you could too.
Two pictures attached from Liz's car. Welded up the bumper shock holes (one before smoothing and one after).
I am not saying that this guy isn't a serious expert with a torch or that he can't do a great job on your flares. I am saying that I wouldn't do it that way and that most expereinced welders can do the job very nicely with a quality MIG machine (not flux core).
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 04:24 PM
oops, pictures. Before smoothing:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 04:24 PM
after smoothing:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2005, 04:27 PM
so... anyone who knows what they are doing with a mig could help me with this right?
joe sharp has the cool body panel clamps.....
Posted by: MikeP Jul 20 2005, 04:31 PM
Since we're tlking flares, I recently bought a FG set and they came without the 90 degree lip. How the hell do you glass them in without the lip? Cut the fender a bunch of times and bend up tabs?
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 04:34 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jul 20 2005, 03:27 PM) |
| so... anyone who knows what they are doing with a mig could help me with this right? joe sharp has the cool body panel clamps..... |
You need a good gas shielded MIG, but if the welder is skilled, yes.
I would be willing to do if for you personally, if you get everything ready and can wait for me to come in town.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 04:41 PM
Two key pictures to get you started.
#1: Position the flare on the car. Notice the fender arch is slightly larger than the stock arch underneath. Split the difference to center the flare over the opening. DO NOT rely on fiberglass rockers, bumpers or anything else to position the flare on the car. Center the flare on the opening by eye. Yes, it's subjective, but it's the most accurate way (and far more accurate than fiberglass rockers, etc.):
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2005, 04:44 PM
these arent GT flares.... theyre flared original 914 qtr panel pieces....cut off of a car....
flared lip/fender to fit 8" whels and 225 tires.... very subtle.... stock lip in place
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 04:45 PM
#2: Screw the flare down tightly to the old fender before you scribe the line. Then scribe, remove the flare and cut very carefully with a jig saw. Take your time, it's worth it.
Then find someone with a good welder and have them do it, or wait for me. If you wait for me, it'll be free (except beer). I was kidding about the $500, although that is what I would charge in my shop.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 04:49 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jul 20 2005, 03:44 PM) |
| these arent GT flares.... theyre flared original 914 qtr panel pieces....cut off of a car.... flared lip/fender to fit 8" whels and 225 tires.... very subtle.... stock lip in place |
Instructions remain the same.
Posted by: Headrage Jul 20 2005, 04:51 PM
I don't know how well it would work out as for logistics but if we could get everybody here I could arrange the shop. We have a gas shielded mig and a lift if it would help... 
Posted by: Grimstead Jul 20 2005, 06:42 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jul 20 2005, 02:26 PM) | ||
havent called and set it up yet.... there is a dissenting opinion on torch welding.... and bill - did he say it was a FLAT 600? or was that an estimate (ie it takes 15 hours instead of 12 etc....) |
From what I remeber, he said 600 dollars for the job. But by everything else he said during the day was that charged $50hr no matter what kind of car he's working on. If I was to guess, I would say he meant his $600 was a estimite but by seeing how well he worked I think it would work out in your favor.
I hope this helps?
Posted by: Reiche Jul 20 2005, 07:22 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jul 20 2005, 02:26 PM) |
havent called and set it up yet.... there is a dissenting opinion on torch welding.... |
John Kelly says http://metalshapers.org/101/jkelly/index.html he prefers torch to MIG:
| QUOTE |
| Gas welding is my first choice because the metal stays fairly soft and workable, and metal-finishing is easier (and more quiet). Mig welding work-hardens the metal and seems to shrink the weld area excessively. Gas welding also shrinks (heat shrinks); however, the metal is still workable with hammer & dolly, whereas a mig-welded panel is a little more difficult to work. |
Posted by: Verruckt Jul 20 2005, 07:35 PM
| QUOTE (914RS @ Jul 20 2005, 04:45 PM) |
| If you wait for me, it'll be free (except beer). |
When will 'rent-a-joe' be in Kansas City the next time?
Sounds like a good deal Aaron.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 07:55 PM
| QUOTE (Reiche @ Jul 20 2005, 06:22 PM) |
| John Kelly says http://metalshapers.org/101/jkelly/index.html he prefers torch to MIG |
I will certainly not argue with Mr. Kelly, who is clearly a master metal worker.
I will say, however, that if you use a torch on sheet metal, you will need it to be workable, because you're going to HAVE to work it.
Not saying that the MIG welded panel won't require some work, but torch welding sheet tends to warp the crap out of it due to the excessive heating of the surrounding area.
With the MIG, the technique starts with tacking many places and then stitching in small increments to keep the heat down and warpage to a minimum.
I think Aaron wants to simply attach flares, not weld sections that will require future stretching and molding.
Posted by: redshift Jul 20 2005, 07:58 PM
I am good enough with gas to do brass repairs, I never knew it was a suitable way to do flares!
Oh my goodness, I am a welder!
M
Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2005, 07:59 PM
| QUOTE (Verruckt @ Jul 20 2005, 06:35 PM) | ||
When will 'rent-a-joe' be in Kansas City the next time? Sounds like a good deal Aaron. |
Sorry, I don't fly to MCI.
Posted by: 0396 Jul 20 2005, 08:23 PM
| QUOTE (Elliot Cannon @ Jul 17 2005, 04:22 PM) |
| I sent you a PM with the number of a guy who will come to your house to do the job. He's the same guy that did matts car. Cheers, Elliot |
Elliot,
What's the secret, who's this 'guy'?. Maybe some of us can
utilize him too.
Posted by: Reiche Jul 20 2005, 09:01 PM
| QUOTE (914RS @ Jul 20 2005, 06:55 PM) |
| I think Aaron wants to simply attach flares, not weld sections that will require future stretching and molding. |
I have no personal experience welding, other than a few scrap pieces trying to learn, so I have no opinion worth quoting. Interestingly, in the shop I worked in, 356s got the gas treatment, pretty much everything else was MIGed.
John's side-by-side weld comparison shows the heat-affected zones for both methods and what is required to clean them up afterwards. He admits that gas is harder to weld with, but is his preference. MIG away, if it works for you. I was just implying that if the old guy can torch them for $600 it sounds like he may have good reasons to use gas over MIG.
Posted by: McMark Jul 20 2005, 09:22 PM
Experience required to get good welds (IMHO):
GAS:
|------------------------------------------------|
MIG:
|-----------|
TIG:
|---------------------------------|
These values are subjective of course.
Basically, anyone who has enough experience can use anything. But you need lots more experience with GAS than with MIG. If I were in your situation I'd arrange to come by one of his current projects and see how it looks.
Posted by: JOHNMAN Jul 20 2005, 09:48 PM
I weld them on using MIG. I prefer MIG as I believe that it will yield a cleaner weld with less impurities as the weld is created inside the shielding gas (which keeps the normal oxydation from occuring while the metal is liquid).
Just my Opinion.
Front Flare MIG welded on:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: ! Jul 20 2005, 09:50 PM
Pay for the gas and the wire....you can come up here I'll show ya how to do it.....
I have a 110 argon gas wire fed unit....
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2005, 09:59 PM
| QUOTE (Manfred Z @ Jul 20 2005, 08:50 PM) |
| Pay for the gas and the wire....you can come up here I'll show ya how to do it..... I have a 110 argon gas wire fed unit.... |
i dont want wavy davy panels....and i know id fuck it up.....
thats why i want to emply a master...like joe.....
Posted by: ! Jul 20 2005, 10:05 PM
That's why you use the shielding gas.....ain't rocket science......ya go slow and grind the welds.....and the fuck ups.....but hey it's yer money knumb nutz.....
Posted by: Series9 Jul 21 2005, 09:43 AM
Z is right Aaron. Go up and take a class. You may decide to do it yourself.
Like I said before, I find it hard to believe that no body in your area has the welding skills to do this job.
No matter what you do, the panel will require some body work after welding.
Posted by: Headrage Jul 21 2005, 09:49 AM
Let's have a Aarons flare installation B-B-Q at Z's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: ematulac Jul 21 2005, 10:04 AM
I'd be down for that. I'd love to be able to do my own flares. 
Posted by: andys Jul 21 2005, 10:54 AM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Jul 20 2005, 07:22 PM) |
| Experience required to get good welds (IMHO): GAS: |------------------------------------------------| MIG: |-----------| TIG: |---------------------------------| These values are subjective of course. Basically, anyone who has enough experience can use anything. But you need lots more experience with GAS than with MIG. If I were in your situation I'd arrange to come by one of his current projects and see how it looks. |
Mark,
That's probably a good accessment. Though not auto bodywork, I have welded a lot of sheetmetal and must admit I prefer oxy/acetylene. You can actually stitch weld quite nicely, and the control over what you're doing is better, IMO. Down side is the amount of oxidization resulting from no shielding gas. I'm not crazy with the results I get with TIG welding sheetmetal bodywork, but I admit to having less experience in that regard. MIG is a lot more user friendly to the lesser experienced. I believe welding training should begin with a oxy/acet torch........after that, you can weld just about anything.
Andy
Posted by: Scott Schroeder Jul 21 2005, 11:25 AM
So.... um .... Joe.....
How about a plane ticket, two lift tickets to Breckenridge and a place to stay in Dillon for a couple of nights... oh, and beer!
Posted by: J P Stein Jul 21 2005, 04:39 PM
Hammer/Dolly/bondo....maybe 50-70 bucks for 225s.
If I can do it, any fool can.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 21 2005, 05:10 PM
| QUOTE (Scott Schroeder @ Jul 21 2005, 10:25 AM) |
| So.... um .... Joe..... How about a plane ticket, two lift tickets to Breckenridge and a place to stay in Dillon for a couple of nights... oh, and beer! |
OK. But the ticket and lift tickets won't be necessary. I need to drive up to meet some of the Denver crew anyway.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 21 2005, 06:04 PM
OK, here's what I'm going to do:
Quit my job, buy an RV w/trailer, put my welders and tools in the trailer and then drive around the country welding 914s.
I can make a good living at that, right?
Posted by: ewdysar Jul 22 2005, 02:42 PM
I've got a set of AA flares in a box ready to install. If we could get some sort of group rate, or a crazy day of cutting and welding, I'll bring my car. I got the same $1600 quote from BBR and haven't called the gas man yet. The thing that I'm most short of is time. If anyone can organize something, I'm in...
Eric
Altadena (near Pasadena, but higher)
I've got a set of inner longs to go in too, but that'll mean ripping out the interior as well. Joe, you're hired 
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