Porsche 914 2056 upgrade
1.7 case upgrade from 1.7.> 2.0 now> 2056
53.9 cc (turns out these are 1.8 heads)new 2.0 style chamber with 44 x38 valves and 57 CC cambers 9.0 CR
Cam Shaft /lifters RABY 9530. See Cam Card
KB 96 Pistons and rings (2.0 rods) EMW
H-Beam rods ARP bolts. EMW
2.0 Crank.25/ Standard /.25 rods
Webber 40 and 44 carbs
Short Pierce style manifolds 3/4 bolt
Malory Unilite Grey-Grey Distributor
Pete Weber 1 5/8 4-2-1 with Evo 2 muffler Tangerine 1 5/8 stub pipes and
with 02 bung at collector
Innovate LM-1 with RPM
Balance internals
Balance Crank NEW lightened/flywheel and Pressure plate with blower
1.7 tins complete
9.0 CR with Deck height to .040
Recommend RPM range. 6200?
Est HP GOAL. 130-140 HP?
After a tear down of my 2.0l engine I started the build up to the 2056 big bore upgrade. Having a Bridgeport I started with the (5) 3/8 oil galley plug on the block halves
Drilling a hole in the plugs and a slide hammer to remove the old plugs then started the installation of the new pugs I was able to order from Type 4 store.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50CYceSrBq0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOMa6nqbkBQ
Perhaps it is time to start a you tube channel for this...Hmmm
Note to self:
Remove bearing alignment pins prior to power washing case of chips from machining oil galley plugs. Lost 2 pins
Not everyone has or wants dropbox, I didn't even bother looking.
You can post pics here directly, you don't need a hosting service.
The plug on the rear of 1/2 side is very close to the flywheel, you have to make sure you're tapped deep enough, but you also must make sure to trim the backside of the plug.
Will be taking on similar soon. I know it's recommended to upgrade the oil galley plugs, i'm wondering how much this is best practice vs required? If they the existing have stayed in place 45 years, what makes them more likely to be problem now?
Required, I would have to say NO
Best Practice. I'm sure the oil pressure on the plug can get high when you are pumping 50 wt oil on a cold day with a 30mm t-1 pump..Loosing a galley plug or having one leak can be time consuming at least to fix the leak and cost you a rebuild if the plug comes out at worst. This is an EZ prevention and low cost, so I can not see why it would not be done while building
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We had a plug come loose while switching in a used engine to replace a broken one. No reason for it to come loose but it did. It seems like the smart thing to do if you are rebuilding.
Looks like the PO gouged the case pulling the front seal at least a few times....by the looks of things
Thanks Super hawk I added links for Youtube in OP and here:
https://youtu.be/50CYceSrBq0
https://youtu.be/GOMa6nqbkBQ
With 20/50 oil and a 30MM pump I pump about 80PSI at idle when cold on my 2056. I cover my freeze plugs with JB weld to insure a good seal.
Mark Henry, thanks for the tip on embedding , its been a while since I have done this kind of thing,,,
EZ when you know how
Best Regards
-Robert
Ta da! Nice work - just like an old pro now.
Looking forward to more on this build.
UPDATE: Just received the Engine yoke for the HF stand from [url=https://ljaircooledengines.com[/url]. for under 40.00 (less shipping) bolted right on and woks fine with cheep engine stand or option to mount Desk top.
ALSO. I purchased a set of used Early Weber 44 IDF carbs with the roller accelerator pumps ( Italian ) I think they will clean up nicely . I also have set of IDF 40 with 32 vents from previous build to choose for this build. The 44 IDF have 36 vents. The last set of 44 with big vents really made the top end on the 2L pull hard.
The camshaft for my 2056 is the VW Type 4 Porsche 914 912E Basic 9530 Cam Kit and leaning towards the IDF 44 carbs. But not sure what vents to start with? Should work well with the Kerry hunter heads and Evo 2 muffler (still working out the details for the heads)
Though I have built an engine on that type of yolk, its made for T1 engines and for a T4 engine it puts a LOT of stress on the engine case especially when the engine is more dressed.
The better kind had a ring to let the case bear against. There is a very expensive one ($300) and a cheaper on like I have that has three spokes and a 1/2 ring. And for the life of me I can't remember who made mine. :/
Either way, I would not use that yolk for your engine build. Its rolling dice. You may be fine, or you may have a broken case. At the very least, weld a 1/2 ring around it for the case to bear against.
Zach
Thanks for the Tip: I think I am going to use the yoke for the initial build of the lower end (crank and rods, bearings and engine halfs)
When the Pistons come out and the Cylinders/heads. It bench work from there
Best
-Robert
Woohoo..thanks Oscar
You can bend up and weld in another arm and make a 1/3 ring out of some bar stock. If you do, weld the 3rd arm in off-center as it could interfere with installing the one piston pin. I built or modified 5 out of the 7 stands I now have, one is for 996/7 and I'll be building another MY96 shortly.
Note this interference issue might just be type one, or is it 911....I forget offhand.
Today I started the engine balancing of the pistons. These are Keith Black 96 mm Pistons and were pretty close.
1) Weigh the pistons and list lightest to heaviest
2) Weigh the piston pins and list lightest to heaviest
3) Match pins to rods for average weights
All in grams
Pins:
1)104.85
2)104.82
3)104.75
4)104.93
KB Pistons
1)397.63
2)399.16
3)398.30
4)397.90
Final Piston and pins (after a little work)
1) 502.46
2) 502.70
3) 502.70
4) 502.69
For those with time on their hands , Will get the last .2 grams on the next pass of balancing because I have Free Covid time at home
Very nice.
Cutting 0.002 in of trimming pads of KB pistons for final weight matching lightest piston
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL80ndQkf1k
Final weight of trimmed KB piston..
Next up, making a jig for Split weighing the Connecting Rod... Big ends/ Small End/gross weight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSKvXyK0LeI
Tuning on the Piston pins is a great plan.. I decided to keep the pins neutral and easily swapped on replacement, tear down or inspection if needed.. Great tip for next time
-Robert
I was watching this thread close, until my recent purchase of a nice new oil tank and engine tin combo from MB911 for a /6 conversion. Guess I just ratcheted things up a bit. I will still be watching though
Thanks for posting
Today started making a test fixture for Split weight connecting rod measurements .Big end , small end ,and gross weight. Big + small = Gross If we have no loss in the set up ( easy enough to check)
I purchased my Rods from http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/pvw/024-102/type-4-connecting-rods/2.0+Liter+H-Beam+Rods%2C+5.160%22+-+Set+of+4
after preliminary testing they seem good out of the box (only weighed the Big ends so far)
The gross weight on the rods seem to be within +- 1 Gram on a kitchen scale (mine scale goes t o. 500 grams with a resolution of 0.01 grams) so I had to borrow my "cheff" son's scale
Big ends weight :
1)251.62 g
2)251.56 g
3)251.30 g
4)251.40 g
Small ends weight:
1)177.87 g
2)177.65 g
3)177.41 g
4)177.44 g
The ARP bolts seem to be with .07 grams of each other
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=/fyrX9nuf7Ys
UPDATE:
I have the internals all sorted and balanced and turning to the Crankshaft , Flywheel and pressure plate, and fan. I decided I WILL have each Zero balanced dynamically and together. This needs special equipment typically found a good speed shop/ machine shop. I think I have a local source.
I decide on a new flywheel. I have 2 older ones that look pretty good , but finding the spec the minimum machine to thickness shows some ?? Is the minimum 9mm or 11 mm (0.354331 or 0.433071 )
The two I measure came in at about the same @ 0.355 ( this would be minimum ) and should not be cut again. With the new one on the way I will measure the same way and post back my findings. No sense balancing a flywheel that will need to replaced in the near future or next clutch service.
The crank is still standard on the journals. I will get a light polish on them to get them ready for the new bearings.
FWIW:
While waiting on the next round of parts and machining....
This 1.7 to 2.0 to 2056 upgraded started with a little knock at idle. With some hard street use the noise/knock increased. In a time, over 2 years and 20 to 25 k miles later I found bearing babbitt in the oil strainer.
Thinking this was a rod knock that I was unable to isolate but pulling the spark on the rod with the noise. And the fact I now KNOW it was a bearing failure at this point the engine was pulled an retired and a stock 2.0l with Factory Djet was installed in its place
This replacement engine runs good and starts in all weather on first try but the fun spirited driving was missed, so the tear down started on this 2.0l weber carbed track engine and this turned out to be the only failure noted so far
The Cam thrust bearing shown above has no babbitt material on the timing gear side. The cam was walking back and forth with each change of engine load. Under power it seemed OK. So while in there the plan to swap cam and bearings, this now turn into new pistons and rods. Now a full 2056 with rods cylinders pistons, lifters and heads. fuel by Kerry Hunter headers and Evo ii muffler and webber 44 IDFs. And to help ensure this failure is not going to happen any time soon an double cam thrust bearing is already in the purchased parts box.
Tonight I had some time to kill....
Matched balanced the flywheel bolts, pressure plate bolts and rod bolts( these were really close already). All to .5 gram or better. Now I do not have to number the bolts when I send the crank flywheel and pressure plate and fan for balance. The bolts can be installed in any of the holes and balance will be maintained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=/fyrX9nuf7Ys
[/quote]
Nice set-up for end to end balancing.!
I tried using a much less sophisticated technique and gave up as i couldn't repeat results, just did overall rod weight balance
Today: Some of my parts are arriving....
My Flywheel shipped from LJ engineering , Pressure plate and disk are in transit and this arrived today;
This may be the Proverbial Cart before the Horse
But was too good a deal to pass up! With Weber tuning this will give the user a MAJOR leg up, and save me the inverstment cost in jets and parts!
Fly wheel arrived from http://ljaircooledengines.com I was inspired by Jake to shed a few LBS.
Here is the untouched fly wheel on the lathe. It came in at a healthy 18.7 pounds before I started in on it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BGFDnC200M
Finished weight at just under 16 lbs. For a weight savings of almost 3 pounds . Not bad for my first DIY lighten flywheel (conservative approach)
Started trimming my 1.7 rockers for Elephant Foot rocker adjusters for 911. More on that to come....
Waiting on pressure plate before I can balance the rotating assembly
I hope you're enjoying the process. I enjoyed it and it was really gratifying when it fired up and ran like a real champ (after I fixed the broken rings).
I'm following your progress, and here's hoping you are stoked with the outcome
Thanks my friend, It has been as much fun sharing the process with the "World" as leaning how to do it your self.
I am still on track for Spring start up, and still on track for my expected Hp of 130hp (+- )
Was the top ring gaped too tight? What did you gap your rings at to resolve your issues? KB pistons? and about 002 -003 piston to cylinder clearances?
My heads are on the way to Jorge at EMW and looking forward to getting them back soon..(lots of good stuff to share)
Best
-Robert
Great advice. I have an aluminum 1/2 starter ring from a VW that I plan on supporting the bottom 1/2 (BOLT ON) with at least 2 more supports. Should not be too hard to fab up. I will post pics one I get it set up. SHOULD be inexpensive solution. Free to me
-Robert
Decided to change things up a little today. I decided to modify my oil baffle/widage tray. A few guesses where to places oil returns to keep the push rod tubes and valve covers full of oil during sustained high revs and let the oil drain back a little more freely. Opened the center louvers for the same reasons. I guess there is not wrong way to do this. But some mods are better then others depending on what you are trying to improve.
Stock tray keeps the oil from sloshing pretty good , but drain back suffers with "Hi revs" . Early engine 1.7 did not have this?
Step bit
Cordless drill
Sceatch owl (to her find the locations )
Cut off wheel in die grinder
Debur tool
Polish /Buffer on angle die grinder
I may have done this different on my second Mod ..but learning here as I go...
Trimming the 1.7 rockers for 911 elephant feet swivel tips. THESE ROCKER ARE HARD.
I had a 5/8 carbide ends mill to take 0.060 off the bottom of the rocker tip. Then used a 90 degree carbide chamfer bit ( carbide too) to cut another 0.060 bevel to allow the tip to rock when close to the rocker tip.
Here is the final result:
I did my rockers using a bench grinder to take down the bulk and a die grinder to form the inner bevel.
Lots of ways to skin that cat.
Zach
Have to say I'm enjoying watching your progress!
You've got a pretty decent size lathe-makes that flywheel look small. Wish mine had that much swing!
Tonight i decided to pull down the Old Weber 44 IDFs and get them cleaned up (rebuilt) before they are needed. Pretty standard results and dried gas. I decided to pull the lead Gallery plugs, which are prone to leaking and drill tap and seal the plug holes with 8mmx1.0x5mm fine set screws. (smaller metric plugs require less material removal before tapping)
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1435 did a fine write up on this here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/lofiversion/index.php?t133490.html
I am very happy I decided upon this course of action as I found all kinds of solids in one in the wells/galleys Here:
Tonight my set screw (cup points) come in M8-10x5mm and uses a 7mm drill and m8-1 tap
Here is the video of the installation for those with leaky wells.
First, i drilled a small home in the lead plugs and a slide hammer to remove...
then to the mill...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub0cDqze9wE
This week was fabrication work: 2 1/8 exhaust pipe
I recently picked up a Pete weber 4-2-1 quiet Horsepower Header( looks a lot like an early Tangerine super header). I had the Evo II muffler with the Kerry hunter header.
But the KH is 1.5 in primary and the 2056 needs to breathe deep. The 4-2-1 is 1 5/8 primary and has stub pipes! The Outlet is 2 1/8. So I had to make the transition pipe to the muffler and add an O2 bung after the last collector.
Its tack welded together and will get the TIG torch out over the week end
Sound clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhNNEG_Mi6A
Heads: Started life as 1.8 heads
Here is a pic from the machinist of the new chamber with 44 x38 valves and 57 CC cambers
More when they arrive
Trying make some sense out of the balance card
Looks like it was a little out of balance
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15499 That looks and sounds very nice. Perfect placement of the tailpipe.
Thank you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9712 . I went back to make sure of the muffler location before the final tack weld of the transition pipe I think the set up is quieter then the SS heat exchangers and the Bursche muffler I had previous. But now I can feel the power band of the (stock cam/engine) start to pull in the upper ranges
While waiting on my parts I started with the cam and gear and clearance for the 30mm Schadek oil pump (T1)
Shortened the cam bolts for extra clearance :
1) 0.020 off the face of the cam bolt heads
2) Trimmed the rear of the cam bolts about flush with back of cam
3) Opened the oil pump outlet to match pump outlet
4) Hone cam thrust bearing for 0.002 end play
5) Cam spins freely on distributor side case half
I used a 3 sided hand scraper to scrape/carve the aluminum in the hole to the line and blended the rest back down into the hole. EZ small bits removed and little chance of messing up the pump saddle with a power tool
Also keeps the aluminum dust down till the final hone with a pencil wrapped with 600
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX5ODEERDkg
Tonight, I fitted the second thrust bearing in the other case half. ( thrust bearing with tang) along with the center and rear cam bearings.
1) Remember to stone the back sides of the bearings. The stamped part numbers and sizes will displace material from the stamps and the bearing will sit higher there, deform and run tight.
2) The second thrust was tight and did not fit in the cam. I had to hone the thrust with 600 grit and flat surface. My Kurt Vice is a flat as I can get, hard steel surface. Hone with light spray oil 4-6 stokes on each side and try to install again. I keep with this procedure until the cam turns with no tight spots. Then proceed till I get 0.002 end play. Clean each time and light oil
3) Return to the other case half on the engine stand and stone the backs of the bearings.( I forgot about this)
4) Also remember to Tap the cam lightly with a soft brass or aluminum punch and dead blow hammer. 5 taps on each end to seat the thrust bearings in the case. Cam spins better with this and less drag!
5) Assemble cam and both case half. Test cam for spinning free. Mine would turn with screw driver OK..but more then before
5) Hand tight bold for case halfs. Same spin test. Light drag with large screwdriver in pump slot. OK but not great.
6) Tighten case bolts to 14 lbs. Spin test again. Same as above a little tight by hand and OK with screwdriver
7) 5 taps on end of cam wit head blow and soft punch. Spin test again. EVERYTHING GREAT. Spins EZ by hand. Check end shake. Small play of .002 Perfect
Tomorrow:
Bolt stretch of the ARP bold and plsti-gage the rod bearings. Install gear, bearings and pins. IF all well install cam, crank and case halfs.
ARP bolt stretch:
Following the instructions for messing bolt stretch required a $60.00 to $200.00 bolt stretch dial indicator. I will do my best to user a micrometer for this. peeps just a little better them guessing and generic number. 0.0005 to 0.00055 torque 30 lbs. I also plastigaged the cleansed the rods too.
1) Clean rod ends and mating faceless
2) Remove grease from threaded rod ends
3) Apply arp molly lube rod threads faces, bolts
4) Assemble cap and rod
5) Torque bolts to 15 lbs
6) Losen first bolt and measure base rod boot length. Tighten to to rod stretch is achieved. repeat for other rod bolt
MY results were:
base bolt measure : 1.8640
bolt stretch : 1.8580
difference : 0.00060 @ 28lbs
very close
I used 27 for my final torque and bearing clearance of 0.0015
final assemble or rods to crank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyRqKfjtZ8Y
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16669 It feels like I'm finally getting somewhere....Starting to go back together!
BTW good work!
Mark Henry , I did both. The first rod i did the bolt stretch method on the 2 bolts as I outlined. I used a User recommended 28lbs and both were 0.0006. (5 tenths too much). Being new to bolt stretch and not having the proper tool for reproducible results. I decided to do one rod with new stretch methods and compare with the traditional torque method. In the end I ended in used a torque of 27 pound feet on all the bolts. and only experimented with the first 2 rod bolts. All the others were installed one time with the torque method and done. Even the plastigage was done on the first 2 bolts
I know there are no dumb questions, but,
I also have used Plasticgage for checking bearing clearance's and feel this method is reasonably sound. Bolt stretch: once a bolt is stretched with X# ft/lbs. and released does it return to it's untorqued length? and can you repeat the process and obtain the same result with the same bolt? Does the stretch measurement include any stretching with the internal threads in the nut?
BTW: thanks for documenting and good luck with the build
Torque-to-yield fastener
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A torque to yield fastener (TTY) or stretch bolt is a fastener which is torqued beyond the state of elasticity and therefore undergoes plastic deformation, causing it to become permanently elongated.[1][2]
Fastener[edit]
Torquing a fastener to its yield point results in a high preloading of the fastener which, depending on the load frequency and amplitude, can significantly increase the fatigue life of the fastener. When the applied load doesn't surpass the clamping force of the fastener, the strain of the fastener will be lower than when the preloading is smaller than the applied load. It is therefore beneficial in high-frequency high-load situations with a higher risk of fatigue related failure, like a bolted down cylinder head, to use torque to yield bolts.[citation needed]
Advantage: Compared to normally tightened hardware, a smaller sized TTY bolt/screw may be used while still maintaining the same clamping force.
Disadvantage: A drawback with TTY hardware is that it normally has to be replaced when loosened, for example when the cylinder head is removed.[3]
SO...I may have not followed the process of torque stretch or TTY as I did a bench test on the stretch method with just the rod. And I believe the bolts are one time use but the advantages above may be with it.
Anyone feel I should replace the 2 ARP bolts I did the stretch test on prior to installing? This is the same rod as the one I Plasti-gaged too
Also the bolt has a shaft that is designed to stretch, the head and threads should be maintained
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1659 Thanks for the feedback
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877
about 6.99-8.99 each bolt. $56.00 a set of 8
Main bearing time:
ALWAYS measure your crank journals, case and thrust
I reviewed my previous owners receipts and build list and found the crank was installed with standard/.025 rod bearings no cuts to the case. So this is what i ordered. WRONG
1) The bearings I ordered were correct for the rods. I looked a set of shells on the old rods and confirmed the stampings on them at .25 and the rods fit perfect as seen owt the .0015 plastigage.
2) The mains had 2 problems:
a) The Silverline bearings I order were for the mains were wrong. Std, Std, Std. I needed .25, std, std and it ends up the mains were also cut to .25 mm
b) The box appeared to be unopened with a small cellophane tap in place keeping the box closed. I had an oil spill on my bench and the box soaked it up very well. soggy
Opening the box revealed the center bearing with multiple deep scratches in the babbit. Easily felt with finger nail and seen (see Photo)
This is the 3rd issue I had with the parts supplier for my 2.0l 914 and will not return or order from them any more...
The SOLUTION I now purchase all my parts from EMW (which I should have done in the first place). THEY ARE AWESOME! I have a set on .25 mains on the way from Jorge at EMW and will be here in a few days
While these may be useable (if they fit) But so were my originals and getting the crank polished deserves some good NEW bearings
IF anyone needs a set or part set of Standard main 2.0l baering please reach out to me. I can hook you up.
another pic of the worst bearing F-ed up bearing. Also this bearing is too small to even make good contact with the crank... AMAZING it came out of the package this way!
another pic of the worst bearing F-ed up bearing. Also this bearing is too small to even make good contact with the crank... AMAZING it came out of the package this way!
tonight cleaning bolts , H/W and intake manifolds......
I had several intakes to choose from, but decided I'm am running the short manifolds and the larger opening for the weber 44.
This thing is going to breath! 6k should be pulling good with the Raby web cam 9530.
Else, I can put the 40 IDFs and the longer intakes and try for some torque. I wish I had access to a dyno for tuning..guess it will be seat of the pants or how white my wife's knuckles turn?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClGIBygT0VM
Latest setbacks include:
Defective Main bearing set Silverline
Wrong size main bearing set Std ,.010 and my crank is .010/.010 (my bad I went by the build sheet and did not measure)
Wrong type of main bearing set (type 1)received
Cheep replacement crank shaft distributor gear, key cut too shallow (damaged installing)
Damaged Crank gear ( when removing)
The new bearings were measured and cleaned up. I indexed for installation, and crank gear and distributor gear installed. I placed in prepped case half and everything spins fine. I placed the camshaft in and aligned the timing marks. Looking good. Turn the crank shaft and the cam pops our of bearings. DOH! Seem the gear had a few teeth that were damaged on removal and would not mesh well with the new cam gear. SO...I found a used set of gears and took the old ones off the crank (AGAIN).
The replacements are here and installed on the crank.
Time to assemble the 2 case halves....with pics and video
Last night had 2 hrs on the engine stand and have the engine cases together and next will be the Deck height and end play....But until then, enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxnvctnQXtA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln0PCzdE-l4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeLnvj0Vwck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGXkQDnARb4
Sorry my last edits did not save...I Was looking at the preview. I think they are right now
Apologies
Thanks for documenting the built and questions/lessons learned.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21666 This is my first Type 4 /VW engine build.(I was a Master Mechanic if a former life) but did drivability and diagnostic work most of the time. I am surprised how EZ the assembly went last night for a first timer. I enjoy the video documentary too, so others can learn from my Mistakes and Successes.
Best Regards
-Robert
quote name='Tdskip' date='Apr 23 2021, 05:08 AM' post='2910301']
Thanks for documenting the built and questions/lessons learned.
[/quote]
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1659 I have a data logger with my O2 sensor that will do analog...I will have to think on this..First get the RPM data logger working and explore from there...
It's a little out there, but I feel that technology like this when a bit more mature is going to change parts of the hobbyist tuning industry.
posted this on another thread for advice
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=353010
Hi World,
I added the shims to my 2056 I took out of the engine to get a base line. Same crank and shims but new bearings. So cleaned the shims and installed new Flywheel WO seal and clean shims.
tight or just right? Do I hose the lube out with brake clean( dry bearing)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiM03KJbUhk
This does not look right...Thanks for the feed back Mark Henry, and Ian Karr. I now have the familiar clunk when moving the crank...see new video for details
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdgSpxFqe9s
I now get .004 endplay with not prying and I think it is a little assembly lube still on the crank/thrust, So I think i am now in the Sweet Spot! Woohoo
-Best
Robert
Deck height measurements and compression ratio calculation .037 and 9.1 compression. I will measure the valve to piston clearance once I set my push rod length
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj3R2Zh-HNo
Attached image(s)
Installed the pistons and cylinders tonight. The rings I fitted prior and was uneventful
top ring=025
second ring (dot) = 015
oil control=015
Clocked and numbered each and started the piston pins retainers to keep thing going. Only one was the wrong side and had to swap (or piston upside down?) NOPE!
Heated the small end with a heat gun and 10 mins for the pin in the freezer make the pins slide in EZ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjbJC5wjhLE
I am going to ty to install the piston pin retainer on screen!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGDPD_x_ftU
Progress update:
Head mock up for geometry class
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF8TluTtE5s
Add new valve train studs tonight and getting the swivel foot rockers on for cylinder one!
More to come
I used the Bridgeport and the adapter in pic to compress the double springs (EZ) a drill press would work here too
-Robert
and test springs added
The test seings are from the rocker shaft
One spring is a little light, so I added 2 springs to the Intake valve for testing (working pretty good). I do the final with one of the valve springs in place
here is the first swing at setting the rocker geometry at 1/2 lift
more videos to come
shimmed rocker to .050
Push rod length 27.27 cm
this turns out to be the wrong way to do this...
Started over and things are looking fine without the shims and the pushrods are close to the stock length...
FWIW: The aluminum rod to help align the adjuster is from a shot gun cleaning kit ;-)
UPDATE:
Removed all the shims
Base line push rod to stock: 10.66/27.1
Lengthen push rod 1/8 turn till alignment @ 1/2 lift .238/ full lift .476 (card .465)
Final
Intake push rod length 10.704in/27.188cm
Attached thumbnail(s)
Here is a picture of the contact patch on the valve stem when rolled 2 times around
Ditch the laser for an angle gauge for the exhaust valve geometry. The push rod is a little smaller than the Intake. More on that...
Set a base line angle of the valve stem with a collet holder on the stem and an angle gauge HERE: 3.5 degrees
Next I do a full lift rotation of the cam and measure with a dial indicator at the retainer of the valve. .458 in
Cam card .465 less than the needed 5% loss
1/2 lift =229
I mention the wrong gross value in the video but use the correct 1/2 lift of 229
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFHP6UVlFv0
Finished the last 2 Pushrod measurements last night. Good news is a few of them are the same across cylinders. ODD however one (first cylinder) #1 had no shim. All the others had .015" , but the lenses are close to the same
I will measure them again and see if the if it was performed correctly. Others would not adjust zero lash unless I was much under the stock Push rod length . shim put it right in there
Looks like you have gone to great pains to get your geometry as (nearly) perfect as you could. I am also in the ranks of those who believe this is a vital part of the engine build.
I do, however, wonder what happens to this "perfect" rocker geometry as future valve adjustments are made.
I was getting ready to do a quick video on cutting push rods and while pressing the tip on may last intake push rod, I noticed it was much too long. About 0.030 inches too long.
WHAT WENT WRONG? All the others were within 0.001 of my desired final length. NOT a big a deal I got another one on the way. $9.95 but shipping was more than the part. But I wanted to be sure they were the same brand and I want a complete the set.
Seems I had "30" on the brain...my target was 11.300..I cut to 11.330. Wound be fine but i did not notice till I had pressed on the tip (IT IS NOT COMING OFF) It was not till I was cutting another push rod that I found out what my hang up on the .030 mark on the dial caliper was not "0" or .300
Working on the spacers for the rocker shafts . Number all the parts for each location to ensure they go where they need to go and the .003-.005 spacing clearance is maintained. THIS INCLUDED THE END Clamps. As they wear on one side (spring side)
I will get a video on this too ounce I set up the final Push rod cut length and confirmed.
But for now:
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Tonight I received my replacement pushrod from EMW and will walk us through how I cut the pushrods and assembled the ends for a final length.
calculations and cutting push rods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNfHK3SpwbQ
Final cut and assemble tips for completed push rod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kteDX9ZgNZw
installation and torque heads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05f0xu0mPRQ
installation of push rod tubes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh-IR46lVuc
When will this baby sing? Thanks for posting your build
I think I have the last few bits needed to finish( less a few tunings jets TBD) but I may pop for the Tangerine stub pipes before the test and tune just to make sure she can breathe
-Robert
I Was shooting to finish by independence day...but any day in July will due
Today I am installing the last of the push rod tubes, along with the cool tins for the heads, the solid spacers for the rocker shafts and installing the shafts and setting the lash to zero for start up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaWDpwd_7dg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jjCTQBDIUw
from another Question thread here on the World:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=354309&st=0#entry2930085
A well built 2056 is a great power plant for a 914. Driven only a few, both were FI and really impressed me.
Rebuild the early weber 44 IDF
Initial tune to:
55 idles jets
200 air bleeds
F11 tubes
36 vents
150 main jets
Will add the return springs, arms and Tangerine racing cams and cables on the install day. Also some extended Jet holders (just stacks). Maybe when I order the new jets on tune day
Need some cast 2 bolt air cleaner bases to match the top
Will add the return springs, arms and Tangerine racing cams and cables on the install day. Also some extended Jet holders (just stacks). Maybe when I order the new jets on tune day
Need some cast 2 bolt air cleaner bases to match the top
[/quote]
Is the ID of those velocity stacks the same as the carb barrel ID's right at the top ?
Don't know what throttle linkage design you're using, but look closely.
My Dell 40's using the cross bar top plates resulted in the ID of the top plates being larger than the carb barrel bores. That resulted in a zero radius for air entering the carb itself. I made my own 2 piece velocity stacks. Had to be 2 piece as the lower part fit UNDER the cross bar top plate. This would not permit a well radiused inlet for the top part as not enough OD .
Yes my stacks (I have 2 sets) are larger then the OD of the top plate of the carbs . Will have todo some thing to make the transition better. Perhaps and insert like the ventures
Today I ordered my Tangerine 1 5/8 stub pipes for my Pete Weber Quiet HP Headers (early super headers). Will be here for fall cruise nights soon enough
http://www.tangerineracing.com/exhaustcomponents.htm
I am so looking forward to these!
Just added some details to the air cleaners
Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16669 for the IDF parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I99l21dABNg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQrWsvAmdwE
I user a top air cleaner plate from a 40 pdf/ 1/2 stacks built in and matched it to the cast base for the air cleaners to help smooth the transition of the air cleaners and Velocity stacks to the webber 44 bores.
I think this will due till I get to a Dyno one day
Maybe just a little more chamfer on the top before the Chrome stacks? I can do that....
Getting the blower and impeller installed
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=354769
NOTE: install the tin on the oil cooler FIRST
before the impeller housing
I will place the 1/2 head tin in too by the alternator. Should be Easier that way? Lets find out...
I will record the fix when I redo mine (again)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NElHuL89k_o
Added the alternator and the tins today
impeller blower torque to 14.5 ftlbs
Today I added the Pressure plate/disk and torque the flywheel and lock plate with felt gasket and Flywheel oring and rear seal.
Getting very close, what is your ETL?
R&R next: 4 days/2 week ends
This week end I will remove the 2.0 Djet
Swap mounts and trans
Next week end install 2056
Crank and prime oil system
Add Carbs, linkages and exhaust
15 min break in.. VROOOOOM
I have a hand full of Cheese head screens on the way. Needed a few more and some were a little worn looking
I purchased the Pete Weber 4-2-1 Quite horsepower header with no muffler from a guy in OH that was included with a pack deal he got with a race car(you never know )
I have a set a of stubs but they are small and cheep but are working well on the 2.0 Djet right now. I have a set of Tangerine Stubs to match the 1 5/8 Primaries in the works but will not be ready for initial start up
These came wrapped, So I am going to run them as is.
Ceramic may be in the future...we will see how she runs
I talked to Chris at CFR (tangerine racing)a few times about this set up and he says the primaries are a shorter then his street header. I am hoping to make some good mid range and Top HP ( I see a Dyno pulling my future)
Best Regards
-Robert
[
quote name='Mark Henry' date='Jul 29 2021, 04:22 AM' post='2934090']
[quote name='rfinegan' post='2932340' date='Jul 21 2021, 04:33 PM']
Today I ordered my Tangerine 1 5/8 stub pipes for my Pete Weber Quiet HP Headers (early super headers). Will be here for fall cruise nights soon enough
http://www.tangerineracing.com/exhaustcomponents.htm
I am so looking forward to these!
[/quote]
Did you buy the header from me? is it a 4-2-1?
I sold a Pete Weber header, that was missing the stubs, to a chap in the USA 10-15 years ago. It should make good power.
Did you get it ceramic coated? Totally worth doing on that header.
[/quote]
Perhaps I will bench run it too...Good advice
Thanks
-Robert
mine did not have the O2 bung
With this set up the Thermostat MUST be Relocated. Any one have any tips retrofitting or moving the thermostat?
I will post a pic of the pipe location later. But its safe to say the header is right next to the case, where the thermostat mounts
This sure does look NICE. Mine is clean, but no so much on the SHOW side
Nice work with the color tins too
Feeling a little under the weather today, but my cheese screws arrived for the tins, and I have a min or two to install the intakes and Webers 44 IDFs before I start to drop the 2.0 Djet in the AM...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq9rckBCBGM
Got to reach out to the Doc for my 901 trans issues
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a quick look at the slider... Looks like a new friction ring is in my future and reseal the shift console (cover filled with lube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zULWZD_DBvI
I removed First gear pack and took apart the friction ring for close inspection...
another of the pack and first gear tensioner
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Anyone have a source for purchasing transmission parts/gaskets and seals? Please advise
dog teeth look well used/worn and rounded. with a ridge at the point end
Carbs linkage and air cleaners are now installed. I will mock up the fuel lines and pump for test stand break in and oil pressure prime as soon as I get my 901 back together...
send a PM to Dr. Evil, he'll have new or good clean used syncro rings and dog teeth. That box looks worn hard, was it run with out any gear oil in it?
Phil
I need to mount my Hifire Cd box and find my wire harness for unilite distributor . CD box goes where the ECU mount on battery try. pics to follow soon
To press the dog tooth gear on to the first gear, I placed the gear in the freezer and heated the dog gear to about 400 with a heat gun...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5FpdBIMmJY
Since I am adding dog gear from a fifth gear stack (no wear) it will have2 brake bands (up shift/downshift) so I needed a few bits to complete. ( Big thanks to Doc Evil) see pic up in thread for 1 band vs 2 bands ( first Vs 2-5)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZVd2ldRjmk
I replace the shaft seal and O-ring for the shift console on my side shifter...pretty straight forward so no pics or videos.
While I'm in there....
Best
-Robert
The transmission is back together and feels good to get it back on the engine. Add starter and filled with oil. Pulled plug to crank engine over to build oil pressure. Even with the plugs out, I am still cranking slow. Jumper cables only. I installed the positive cable on the starter and things are better but still too slow. Looking at a Hi Toque starter next.
Its as slow as the the stock engine. So no surprises here. So I did a quick compression test (COLD)NEW) and 125psi across the board and 40 PSI oil pressure.
Exhaust was swapped over from the 2.0 and installed.
NEXT: FUEL pump and Ignition system for initial start up
...getting CLOSE to VROOOM
-Robert
Hooking up the electrical is EZ with a Diagram
MALORY Unilite plugs into the HyFires harness
and about 5 other connection to power ground and ignition and the coil (+/-)
Crank and prime again to get the oil flowing with out plugs .ITs craning better with the ground cable to the block/battery. Put the pugs in and can count the compression strokes wheel cranking..but pretty good (Better with ground cable)
HOWEVER...
The mail delivered the HITORQUE IMI starter today...so 15 min swap and crank with pugs in good and small gell battery put in last year!
Missed the timing by one plug wire...or it was it this way last time it ran?
Initial start did not fire but was popping and trying ...loosened the distributer and turned it and VROOM..Its alive...Continued with break in of cam. rings, etc @ 2500 to 3500 rpm
Synced carbs at 3k..and timing was @ 18 degrees and can not turn distributor any further. Will fix this on shut down.. Reclock the plug wires took care of this and now at 28 @ 3000
Smooth idea at 1k and good throttle response .
Next will be AFR with wide band O2 and idea mixtures.. So far the base setting look pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt5SA1__eoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2yuMjpIxmM
Very cool. Sounds good. Can't wait to see it back in the car!
Sounds good, on the road soon, and thanks for the updates and videos, been very helpful
Pulled a plug to check the idle jet is not too rich. Running at 3/4 turn
Pulled a plug to check the idle jet is not too rich. Running at 3/4 turn
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Cleaned the heat shield for the muffler pad I won at Octeenerfest door prize...
pad installed
Pulled the tins this week end and Re-Torqued the head bolds and set the valve lash. all nuts took about 1/32 of a turn from the last noted position
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877
On track for a FIRST drive this holiday week end! Good idle and seem to be responsive to throttle during break in. Smoooth running even before the tuning
I got a set of motor mounts off an another engine bar and EZ enough to get them swapped before the install
Have to wrap a header tube by the speedo and clutch cable
Have to replace the clutch cable( has a fray starting )
Oil change before road test ....Waiting on Filters
Swap Fuel pump for carbs
Did I miss anything?
I am sure I did...but nothing that should set me back from my drive this week end
and tuning with the Wide band (new to me)
SO GLAD I GOT THE THERMOSTAT SORTED
Tonight did the final zero valve lash. and was balancing the Webers 44 at higher RPM.
To my surprise the engine was breaking up and not making any power.
Was my Main Jets too small?
I am a little embarrassed to say, the engine spins up very quickly and was bouncing off the rev limiter in the Hyfire VI AL
Good to know it was set much lower for the stock 2.0 engine and working as it should
Now its set from my new higher redline and well below valve float
OOOPS, been some time since I played with the settings.. EZ rotary dip switches in a side access panel
NOT too friendly of a place to get to when mounted in the STOCK ECU position by the battery
Glad I have it set and ready to go...for this week ends drive
Congratulations, Robert. Well done. I hope it's satisfying and you enjoy it for many miles, even as you continue to fine tune
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17042
Its the support that we get here from the 'World" that helps keep us going when things do not go as we expect. Like plug idle jets, just after setting the valve lash. WTF, it was just running fine and now 2 dead cylinders.
As ya'll noticed, I post my failures here too. I learn from them more that some of the successes.
The Wide band O2 tuning will be all new for me on the Weber 44 IDF, but not too far off from from of late model Tune port and feed back carbs/ ECUs of the 80-90 cars
Keep tuned if you like this kind of stuff
I did find a Dyno tune shop only 30 mins from my house. $100.00 and hour or $400.00 an 8 hour day
I bet I can gets some base line pulls and set the best timing in an hour time
Yes, thank you for posting and letting us comment. I am considering a similar build with Weber 44's.
Mr. Gatornapper claims his engine with 44's rocks
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877
I hear its all about tuning out the flat spot on transition from idle circuit > to mains
My 2.0 L had 44 IDF when I got it and the top pull was amazing but the transition was not so much. So, I traded out the 44 for 40 idfs with 32 vents that everyone recommends. The drivability was better but I always missed the strong pull and push into the seat that I had from the 44.
Im better at tuning now so here we go again...
Best Regards and thanks for the feed back
-Robert
New Hi-torque starter is a little close to the Trunk /floor pan.
Little reclocking of the starter and a slight push up on the floor pan and Im good to go...
Malory HiFIre VI AL CD /rev limiter is installed where the ECU used to reside.
Did I mention how much I HATE the glue on the fire wall!
Today I added a different ground strap. The old one I think did not flow enough current for the starter and high load accessories.
Attached image(s)
I have the bottom the the engine buttoned up and routed the NEW clutch cable with the speed in a heat wrap. Over the headers and out of the way of the wrapped pipes. NO low hanging cables, wires or such...she will get a good power washing once out of the garage.
Tomorrow will be the fuel pump up front and some fuel lines to the carbs and the last of the electrical connections for the HI Fire Mallory CD...
ITs on all fours and NO JACK STANDS.
time for a
Thank you to all that check in and participated in the comments during the build..
Here is a video of the test drive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUeKvJrBFgo
More tuning and clean up coming soon. As you know these things NEVER END
I must say this combo seem to perform very well and not too much for the street driven driven car
What happened? I had Ben here on Tuesday and he too drove the car for a short spin and it was driving out fine...Like the video. I put about 20 mile on her and is now about 100 miles total and did a fresh oil change just before.
2 problems under investigation
1) Heavy spark knock from time to time after spirited driving. Happens on over geared low RPM on tip in of throttle . not so much on down shift. Maybe lean carb or sticking weights in Malory ?
2) Heard what sounded like a dry bearing howl on idle that started to pull the engine down to a stall. put a few revs to here and noise went away This happened 2 times
...but every things seems to be pretty good till THIS:
Pulled the distributor on Thursday night to see it its sticking.. Pulled it apart and weights was just a little sticky but springs back k OK.. cleaned and lubed and reduced the mechanical advance to about 18*... SO 10 initial + 18 mechanical =28.. I was about 30 before. Maybe this will help. Installed and set up...but will not start. I tried lots of things but only popping.. IT tuns out I must have clock the advance plate 180* off?
YEP went out today at lunch and flipped the plate and installed. Started right up
set initial timing to 10* seem to be running OK...Went to check the timing at 3k
I increased the engine speed to 3k and started to set timing light to 28. Before I could find the mark, the engines startle clanging and clacking like somethings was loose in the valve train. Then that howl can back and pulled the engine to a stall .Restarted and engine had a miss fire turned out to be #3 and oil leak under car.. been dry to this point and now puddles
I pulled the valve cover and confirmed that the #3 intake valve was not moving and was stuck open. and pushrod was bent
Pulled Engine
Pulled head
Valve smacked the piston and bent intake valve. WTF! 3k is not floating the valves with double springs and rev limiter @ 6500. Never hit rev limiter at 6500
WELL in in this far, its getting bulled down to see if a spun bearing or something is causing the Howl.
I pulled the other head and Guess WHAt? Same thing. #1 intake kissed the head, looks like one time and bent the push rod and broke a pieces of the head by the push rod tube(it was bent)off the rocker
I noticed oil in the cylinder 1 with brass of bronze flakes and in the combustion chamber. This is odd as I just changed the oil and no metallic seen only the moly beack in lube( pretty good investigation for 4 hrs)
The other head is not a s bad but the same thing happened (same Lobe?)
here is the Brass/bronze oil slurry?
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I will know more as I inspect the lower end in the AM
IS it possible the Howling dry bearing noise is the valve guide? possible too tight? Causing a tight valve not to close and hitting the piston as it comes up and is hanging open OR bending the the push rod as it tries to open the valve ? It did stall the engine
Lower end spins freely with the heads remove. One hand on the Fly wheel. IT will almost free wheels but it does have ring drag
What Do YA'll think is going on here? All theories welcome .o38 deck and 465 lift. I did check Piston to valve clearance and multiple valve lifts and recall it being good
IT will get fixed, but do not want a repeat performance
Did you check for valve to piston clearance during the build ?
flat top pistons may not have sufficient valve relief
My pistons had fly cut relief.
I'm using WEB 494 cam with 0.465 valve lift. no problem
Case is split and checking bearings for dry bearing noise!
Checked the end play of the crank . This will confirm thrust bearing condition is ok
Bearing looked good too see video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHNoAnZ8rxE
Oil pump is out and cover had a little wear on the cover by the drive gear shaft. Sharp edge will get dressed down
here is the pump and cover:
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15673
Robert, this sucks Sorry to see you having to tear down the engine after all the work, but you're attacking the problem with determination.
It looks like a valve interfered on the surface of the piston. In reference to barefoot's question, one technique used to verify clearance is to put some substance like playdo on the piston surface, install the heads, and then rotate the engine through a cycle. Inspecting the playdo afterwards can help confirm that you have sufficient clearance between valve face and piston surface. I can't recall if you did something like that before final assembly. If you don't have sufficient clearance you'd need cylinder shims.
I hope that makes sense.
Dam sorry to hear that has happened, all seemed to be going so well. hope you get it solved without too much heart ache
pulled the connecting rods for an inspection of the bearings as seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCmZH5kp3v8
Any one have an opinion of the condition of the lower end after break in and less that 100 miles?
I have never been in a fresh rebuild after only a few runs
Never good news, but keep your head down and do the detective work as necessary. It looks as though the valves/pistons had contact, hence the bent push rods. Also, oil pump appears not correct. Best of luck with the repairs.
Thank you every one who commented on the 2056 FAIL
Bottom end looks like everything is in good shape. Unless some on chimes in with comments on a failure i did not see I am going to reassemble the bottom end
The plan for the heads is to send them out to Gorge at EMW to get them ready to put back on. While I'm at it, I will send theKB pistons out with the heads and have them cut for valve reliefs . This is cheep insurance to keep this form happening again. and adult the rev limiter to about 6k...IM not making any power up above that. Double springs are good for way above that...so, Sounds like a good plan?
COST
2 push rods
2 Intake valves 44
Oil
Filter
assemble lube
Curl sealer
Piston Fly cuts
Weld 2 cracks in head by push rods. Bent pushups cam off rocker and punched through head
All in all, cheaper than the fix to my neighbors new F450 after hitting a deer at 70 mph
bumper 650
brackets 100
DYI
I guest Stuff happens, you just have to roll with it, fix it, and move on.. Things can always be a lot worse.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877
I went back and looked at your thread and it looks like you had a deck height of .037. That should be sufficient (although most 1st timers shoot for an even .040 minimum). How did you measure that? You shouldn't have to have a relief cut in the pistons if you have a good, confirmed deck height measurement. Just keep in mind that relief will increase your combustion chamber and lower your overall CR.
I would also believe that the lower end is probably ok.
Whatever you end up doing, good luck!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17042
I think I have a video of the Deck height...
I used a dial indicator on a magnetic base to measure. Used a .100 parallel to find the zero on the indicator and then run the piston up to TDC or the smallest reading.
Smallest reading - .100= Deck height
Also reality check of a straight edge and feeler gage, gave the same value.
Oh man, I am so sorry to see you having to go through this after all your work. I like that you remain determined (immediately) to resolve this and get her back on the road. Good luck and I hope she is running again very soon.
Those valve marks look like repeated hard contact.
If all the other setup dimensions were correct, you just didn't provide adequate valve/piston clearance.
When I set up an engine for a new cam, I replace my valve springs with rocker spacer springs and rock the engine near top dead center while repeatedly poking the valve against the piston. At some position before or after TDC, depending on which valve, it will reach the closest approach point. It's easy to measure piston/valve clearance from the outside that way.
I wouldn't go less than .080" and probably not less than .120" on intakes in most applications.
BTW, you can create the pockets you need with a hand held cutoff wheel worn down to valve head diameter. The location is well laid out already.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=209
Thanks for the feed back.. I will to check again once I get the heads fixed for sure.
I did do the light spring trick and remember reading to check at various rotation of the crank. Not set full lift. But I do not recall the distance. I think it was close to the minimum of .080 or just under you mentioned. Thinking the doubles springs should control my rpm range, I moved forward.
Will do the PlayDo trick to as a reality check.
It's odd the fails we're 1 and 3 intakes on the same lobe. And rear cylinders. IM thinking they kissed the pistons at some time on a high Rev and ran ok. Resulting in a sticking/ tight valve, when they got hot they stuck and failed? Else why did the front two intake valves on 2 and 4 touch too and bend pushrods?
Either way I think valve pockets is a good thing here. I know they touched at least once and EZ to do now that its apart.. I also have a Bridge port and some fly cutters. 20-40% bigger then valve sound about right to me. (44/38)
How deep can you safely pocket the top of a KB 96 piston? Enough to get the .120 or a set max amount.
This is better they playing with the DeckHeight as pushrods and geometry have been set
Best Regards
-Robert
PS. No hurry on the stub pipes, when ever they are ready is OK now...
Here is a thought I seem to have been over looking....
The Piston to Valve clearance is not only to control clearance at high revs but for Thermal Expansion too. This seems to fit that the rear cylinders are the ones that failed. If I did not have enough clearance? I will increase the clearance to .120 + on both intake and exhaust with the valve notches in the pistons. Im pretty sure I used the minimum size here when I tested that . I will report what that was when I get it back together.
I am thinking the intake valve was .060 to .080 ish? I have no notes, but remember doing the press on the rocker to get the valve to touch the pistons at various locations.
I am thinking I was on the lean side of things too or high head/ combustion temps..I had spark knock only after spirited driving ,so timing and AFR testing was on the TODO but this failure peaked its ugly head
How to notch piston for valve clearance for KB pistons (.050)
HERE:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=356077&st=0&gopid=2950326&#entry2950326
I just opened the box from CFR (tangerine racing) and My stub pipes are in!
1 5/8 od pipes and look GREAT. I will get them bolted up once the heads arrive back from EMW
But here is a pic of the difference from the old ones I had in use..
another pic as they are just so pretty...and I am waiting on the heads with nothing to do.
Heads are in transit back to me from EMW. I will start the clean up and reasemble possibly this week end. I need to find the std main bearings I had left over for another member...
Here is a pic of the welded head repair:
More when they arrive back to me.
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Looking good! Getting closer to engine assembly!
Love it
built back even better !!!
Really enjoy this thread
More good stuff!
BTW, is it just me, or do others get a few downloads launched every time I open this thread?
??? What's getting downloaded? Automaticaly? Or are you saying you are saving a lot of information for referenece?
Download all you want...that is why I am sharing this experience. Learn from my wins and losses. What works and did not work for me...
Best
-Robert
Yeah, whatever you are downloading is not related to anything in Robert's thread. BTW, this is going to be one great running 2056!
bkrantz sent you a pm on what might be the issue
will also add I am willing to help you remote for your PC too
Today I am going to safety wire the stub nuts for the CFR stub pipes: I have never do this so the plan is to use the wire to keep the nuts from coming loose. Happy New Year Y'all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud6TRaBMMes
Getting ready to put the 2 case half back together. The rods are torqued and crank and cam is in the one half. Waiting on some locktite 518 for the oil pump before I can install the other half with Kurl T2 sealant and teflon pipe sealant for the long case bolts and washers.
I am installing the oil pump on one half of the case and sandwiching it into place with the other half. Sealant on the intake and output ports sealed with anaerobic sealer ...so the sealant doesn't to get scraped off by pressing it in to place.
I was inspired to do a recording after seeing a live feed of @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18749 and Jake discussion of the oil by pass. It was on my todo list for my redux 2056 so bumped it up to the top of the todo list.
Here we have a Piston/Rod to replace the spring and still use the original piston in the oil by pass of early(er) type 4 engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0xAVg8l1wA
Today the loctite 518 sealant arrived so I was able to put the oil pump and case halves together.... SO the bottom end is back together again!
tomorrow will be pistons rings and cylinders ....for head geometry and clearance checking for 2 new push rods
Tips of the Day:
When installing the last lock ring for the pistons pins, place a rag under the piston before installing/ trying to install the lock ring.
* Best case, the rag will catch the pin when you drop it or it flys off.
* Worst Case, you forgot about the rag and the lock ring falls inside the engine case
Good news is it only took 30 mins to pull the piston /cylinder and go fishing with a magnet to get the lock ring out of the case
A big thank you to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24787 for the head bolt washers...
Heads are torqued and installed with the air guides on both sides
Place the paper in the lifter holes to keep debris out (or in my case dropping a cheese head screw into the engine) learned this the hard way with the piston pin retainer springs
Looking good. I used a strip of duct tape to cover the lifter holes, cheap, easy and every mechanic should always have some on hand at all times
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877 thanks for the tips with the duct tape or painters tape. Also for the support during the build. Getting close as I finish up the valve geometry for the two replacement push rods and checking the clearance of the 911 swivel rocker tips to rockers.
Best Regards
-Robert
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26 This is a great tip!
COLD OUT SIDE!
Cut and replace the 2 bent push rods. I scribed the OAL length and the cylinder number on each pushrod. So cutting to required length was EZ. Both intake push rod length 10.704in/27.188cm and within 0.001" of each other
Next add the push rod tubes and lifters and set up the rocker shafts...
Getting closer!
Tried to read back through the thread, you keeping FI or carbs?
I have been happy with the early Italian Weber 44 carbs and the Pierce manifolds... but I do have a set of 40idfs too. Cam shaft is too big for Djet. Maybe ok for LJet (I have one saved if I get tired of carbs)
I am not sure if this is the problems the caused my issues but the swivel feet should not touch the rocker arms!
Here is a a pic of the before and after with the addition under cut
and here is #3 intake (one that bent valve) the pic above on #1 intake
After a quick clean up , they will be ready to go back in the heads and button things up with a valve lash of 0.001"-0.002" and new valve cover gaskets. This is for a little extra oil in the elephant feet as the engine breaks in again
What is your piston to valve clearance?
With the new 0.050" valve notches in the pistons I think it end up being :
Intake @ 10 degree first opening. 0.150 in min piston to valve clearance
Exhaust 10 degree before closing. 0.118 in min piston to valve clearance
Today added the push rod tubes and the rocker arms and mocked up the headers for the thermostat
Addition clearance is needed to mount a thermostat with the use of these headers. SO making a new bracket to check the clearance and function
That thermostat is going to heat up pretty quick. I'm not sure it will improve the engine warmup versus locking the flaps in the open position.
Maybe a small metal heat shield between the therm & header? You could use the same two studs mount it.
Today I finished the rockers and pushrods and set the valve lash for break in and installed new valve cover gaskets. I have the Stub pipes for the headers installed and the exhaust pipes while I have room to work. I will wrap the last of the pipes with the extra Fiberglass wrap I have left over.
I installed a new thermo couple on the # 3 head bolt and double checked the head torque on 3/4 head
Then I will start on the blow housing and tins, Plugs, wire etc
I think I'll add a piece of coat hanger as a push rod to keep the Thermostat flaps in the open position till I get a thermostat location worked out. Last place did not seem to open after fair amount of driving
Engine installed and cranked over without plugs until oil pressure is up to 70 psi 20w50.
Found a leak will check if it loose bolt on oil fitter console or the cooler by pass valve
Shifter is now hitting the exhaust with the new sub pipes and the 1/4 flanges/gaskets. I have to pull the stubs and machine the steps off? or bend the shifter rod to get clearance for 4/5 gears
First pic is there it hits.
Here is the full shot under the car
...after about the 3rd crank at about 15 sec each. and getting nervous the pressure rose and swings right up to 70 psi
So bout 45 secs or so
cranking speed was fast and smooth too.
Better to alter the rod than the stubs.
You can flatten out the rod a bit with a hammer if the interference isn't too severe.
The actual shape of the rod makes no difference as long as the ends line up correctly.
Thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=209 I was hoping you would say that.. I will post back what I come up with. A little heat from the Oxygen Acetylene torch will change the shape in no time. But I will try a big hammer first. The metal may not be that hard. Every thing else seems to look and fits good and the little extra clearance on the clutch side make for a very clean clutch install with your remounted clutch pivot plate and some heat wrap. Looks very tidy.
Thanks again.. your the best and so are your parts
-Robert
This is getting interesting...I think some on set the throttle pedal stop high to keep there kid from going to FAST!. ..
TIP: ALWAYS check Wide Open Throttle (WOT) when setting up your carbs or throttle plate.
MY stop on the pedal board took more that a few, to several turns to get WOT!
Heheheh..this is going to be FUN!
Now to hook up the ignition(Power) wires on coil and HIFIre/MSD then test fire and timing...
Take a look down the throttle bore HERE:
Working on the shifter clearance it from hitting the exhaust pipe. These are hollow and fairly easy to bend. I took @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=209 advice to maintain the locations of both ends by tracing a template of the Original shape on paper with a sharpie. Then off to the Vise to alter the shape and bend to fit. It took a few tries but I think I got it. Seem to get all the gears and does not touch . I will have to changes the Shift stops of the Rennshift, but that is not difficult at all. The white is just cheap primmer to show me where the rubbing was happening. Ill dust some black paint on it when I install the cover and boots after a test drive
Nice progress Robert. You will be driving that baby again in no time now.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9712 The Engine is running now ...working on the carb sync and timing . Set to an initial 8 degrees right now. A fresh 5 gals of 94 octane to get this thing up and going in the right direction
New parking cables and new dust boots on the pistons for the rear caliber are in progress along with the SS flex hoses from PMB group buy. Going to be nice to have Fresh brake fluid after how many years?
I need some help PLEASE.
I have the engine back in the car and its running poor and start the "SAME" howling noise I had just before it failed the first time. The engine turns over with the bolt on alternator fine so not thinking bearing.. or alternator?.
Please take moment and listen to this and let me know what you thing...note the head temp and oil pressure in video looks good. the first howling noise as while running and I stoped immediately. The next morning i pulled the plugs and compression check :
COLD WOT with charger
1 140
2 140
3 140
4 145
Lots of miss firing popping and fouled plugs
replaced plugs and set timing to 28 @ 3500 ( 8 base) running but not real well not missing and no power
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzrqlBq0rqA
It's been so much fun, lets do it again?
Since I did not find the root cause and just repaired the heads and valves, it no surprise that it failed again! It looks like it was not an over rev condition the caused the pistons to hit the pistons. I will only be posting the Fixes I encounter moving forward to keep the World Advised. IT is going to take a while as I am reluctant to shot gun more $$$ at this again.
I will install the original 2.0 and put her back on the road and have some fun...while I find out what went wrong? Thanks for the support and a big shout out for advice to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1095
Well that sucks, sorry don't have any suggestions.
I agree that sucks Robert. Are you sure it's something internal and not something intake or ignitiion related? When you tore it down last time you had evidence of valve interference. Were you getting the same symptoms last time? Those compression numbers look good, so....maybe NOT something internal.
Otherwise I have not clue but hope for the best.
I'm going to do another compression test and maybe a leak down but somethings is amiss (pun intended ) ;-)
Is the howling noise the noise you re concerned about what we hear in the video BEFORE you turn the engine over and it sputters a little bit? The video you posted on the 12th?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15499
If the key is in (I'm guessing it is as the head temps are reading) but the engine is off and something is howling, I'm thinking fuel pump. How is the fuel pressure at the engine?
Zach
To me it sounds like a dry bearing and pulls /slow the engine down till a stall. This is the sound it made just prior to my valves bending and pushrods (see first fail). Odd enough, returning the next day the sound was gone and only a miss fire on Cylider 2 (the popping was seen on cylinder one in video)
Currently it is running on 4 cylinders and no noise. I have done several leak downs and compression test. Still in the Diagnostic phase of figuring what the heck is going on. Ever day its something different and new symptoms
Fuel pump is under the hood and 2-3 psi. It is relayed with the key on via the power relay on the play board. Self regulating at the pump
Could it have been a tight thrust play? Maybe something ground it's way free enough to no longer cause noise, friction and resistance?
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