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Posted by: Warren914 Apr 15 2021, 05:03 AM

I'm planning an exhaust refit on my '75 914. Any thoughts on stainless steel heat exchangers from Restoration Design vs those from SSI? Extra bits and pieces will be needed...

https://www.restoration-design.com/store/product/PP033

Posted by: Racer Apr 15 2021, 05:25 AM

iirc, the muffler and hangers for a 1.7/1.8 are different than a 2.0. Are you starting with a 75 1.8 or 2.0? If a 1.8, you would need to change more than just the heat exchangers to get it to all fit.

Posted by: Warren914 Apr 15 2021, 05:40 AM

'75 2.0 liter with original exhaust system. I'm aware other parts are needed to make it all fit but don't have a list yet. The heat exchangers will likely be the largest part of the expense.

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 15 2021, 06:57 AM

The SSI heat exchangers are the same as the ones RD sells.
Dansk bought SSI several years ago.

Warren could get away with 1.7/1.8 HE's as well and get a muffler from Ben. Many times the 1.8 HE's are cheaper.

One question is will the existing '75 rear valence fit with new early 2.0 exhaust and the valence?
By fit I mean line up with the tailpipe cut out.

Posted by: mepstein Apr 15 2021, 07:10 AM

Yep. Only one manufacturer for the heat exchangers. I like supporting restoration design because they work hard to support us.

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 15 2021, 11:28 AM

The only correct 1.8 original heat exchangers (and muffler) that are correct for a back date are from a 1974. They have pipes the same OD as the 2.0L. The cutout notch for the the valances are the same except for the early port hole valance.
I prefer the OE heat exchangers to the SSI. They have better sealing flanges and stronger loops where the head studs go.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=697 Henry

Posted by: bdstone914 Apr 15 2021, 11:34 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25265

What you will need is:
1. left and right J tubes
2. left and right S branches with attaching brackets
3. Muffler bracket to match the muffler.
4. left and right warm air guides

I have all but 4 that are cleaned and powder coated. Let me know if you are interested.

Posted by: 914werke Apr 15 2021, 11:48 AM

Ive been doing a few backdates lately

New/old SSI's are still the best bet, finding near 50yr old OE HE's that aren't rusted out significantly is getting pretty hard.


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Posted by: Tom_T Apr 15 2021, 11:59 AM

Guys - Warren has a `75 2L - not a 1.8L - so all this retrofit stuff isn't applicable.

IIRC his is a straightforward change-out of 2L SSI-HEs from the OE steel ones, although he may have to do a crapalytic converter delete if it was a California car with one.

Also, IIRC 75-76 still used the 2L Banana Muffler.

AFAIK only a new set of gaskets & would probably want to get a nice new shiney set of bolts/washers/nuts attachment hardware.

I'm a 73 2L guy - so if I'm wrong on that, then give Warren what he needs for a 75-76 2.0 conversion to the 73-76 SSI HEs.

Warren, unless your 914 is a rusty basket case - bite the bullet & do the SS HEs from RD or any source -

Also - SMC, Pelican, AA, & other 914 parts suppliers carry these SSI HEs & are also supporters/vendors/advertisers on 914world. But RD is close to you in Canada, so you may have lower shipping & no exchange rate issues with them being in CAN.


Tom
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Posted by: 914werke Apr 15 2021, 12:01 PM

BTW flappers aren't pictured because they are practically the only parts that carry over from a late setup.

Posted by: 914werke Apr 15 2021, 12:05 PM

Tom you are wrong.
75 & 76 use the same HE & muffler setup for both 1.8 & 2.0L & no they do not use the banana muffler.

See my attached pic. & subsequent caption

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 15 2021, 12:14 PM

Bruce - while I know that you have parts to sell - he may not need to replace all of those on his 2.0 - & can just get them cleaned up & PC'ed up in Nova Scotia.

Since it's a 2.0 Warren - you should already have #3 the 2.0 Muffler Bracket, as well as the other 3 tubes & guides - so check your own parts for condition. If not nice or restorable - or if you don't want to bother with restoring yours - then Bruce is a good option for turn-key resto parts.

You can also find SS J-tubes out there FS if you want to also keep that part attaching to the new SS-HEs in SS too.

Other than the non-stock muffler - Rich's/914Werke is a good representation of the full set-up.

However - if you are going to resto your own parts &/or get some new ones, then the ole "while I'm in there" kicks in, & you'll probably end up wanting to also restore & PC or paint the rest of the engine tins too.

The good thing is that you'll probably never need to replace the SS HEs in your lifetime, nor in your kid's, nor .... you get the idea!


Tom
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Posted by: 914werke Apr 15 2021, 12:32 PM

Again, NO!
Tom see the OP 1st post. He is looking to "refit" with backdated parts inquiring about the stainless HE's offered from RD vs the OG ones SSI made out of CA back in the day.
Unless someone backdated the car prior, NONE of the parts outside of the flapper valves interchange from a late system (75-76) to the earlier (70-74).
In my pic I show one of my 2.0L hangers, a Bursch 2.0L muffler, SSI 2.0L HE's & the rest are OE parts.

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 15 2021, 12:50 PM

Rich - I stand corrected on the original factory set-up.

I did say that the catalytic converter 75-76 versions were different, but I had thought that the non-cat 914s still used the banana muffler, whereas the cat cars had the cat + a shorter muffler. However, maybe those were converted exhaust 75-76 914s that I'm recalling having seen.

As for your caption at the later post - for Warren the L & R Flapper Boxes are available new from all of the sources I noted below, which are OEM JP/Dansk parts.

BTW Warren - JP/Dansk is now the Porsche OEM for these & other 914 parts, & are also sold through P-dealers.


According to SMC's parts listing below that I just checked - there is only one 2.0 SSI HE for 74-76 - which was what I meant for his 2.0 SS HEs.

And in later years JP/Dansk/SSI used to only offer a 2.0 HE set, & you had to update to it for 1.7/1.8 cars (except perhaps in the very early years of SSI HEs back in the 80s-90s they may have made a 1.7/1.8 version).

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/SSI-Heat-Exchanger-Set-914-4-2-0-p21825.html


Warren - I don't know if you looked at SMC or any of the other 914 parts suppliers, but SMC also offers both the JP/Dansk 2L Banana & a 2L SS muffler, as well as many of the other parts that Warren will need new (gaskets, hardware), & some of the tins, flappers, etc. at this link:

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/heat-a-c-and-exhaust/914-heat-a-c-and-exhaust-c242/

(Note that they've listed the 912-SSI HEs here fro 914s - but I think that may be a mistake, or else just an alternative fitment for the 912/912E version, & I don't know how well that would fit the 914 space. The actual p/n 914-SSI HEs are further down on that linked page above.)

There is similar diversity at Auto Atlanta, Stoddards, Einmalig, etc. - plus Porsche Classic has brought back a lot of parts offered through their authorized resellers & P-dealers.

Also for Warren - between JP/Dansk, SMC, RD, AA & Stoddard (& maybe 914Rubber) - I think that they have many of the plates & guides etc. now available as new repros (several are at the above link for one source).


Tom
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Posted by: Tom_T Apr 15 2021, 01:00 PM

Rich - read Warren's/OP's post #3 which I quoted above:

"'75 2.0 liter with original exhaust system. I'm aware other parts are needed to make it all fit but don't have a list yet. The heat exchangers will likely be the largest part of the expense."

I posted that BEFORE I saw your other post, & have corrected myself accrdingly in my post #14 - so get a grip!

And in the post that you responded to - I said to check his parts because his set-up could've been updated &/or some parts may still work - and I said that the muffler was aftermarket - which Bursch is - & the rest was "a good representation".

If Warren needs to back date any of his other parts, then he can either get resto used or whichever new parts are now being produced - as I said in post #14.

So what is the F-ing problem!? Geesh!

IMHO a 914 owner on here should NOT be limited to only buying parts from members, or restored parts from member-vendors.

PS -0 I've bought many parts from both you & Bruce - as well as referring many others to both of you - so get off my case!

Tom
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Posted by: rjames Apr 15 2021, 02:16 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10181

I think you may still be missing that SSIs (and early 2.0 EOM exchangers) are not compatible with '75 & '76 2.0 exhaust setups.

Adds for the SSIs will say that they are compatible with later models, which they are, but only if you backdate all the other necessary pieces as Rich and Bruce detailed.

Posted by: 914werke Apr 15 2021, 02:34 PM

Ok Tom's a bit testy today
Couple of points: nowhere did I represent that I was soliciting a sale.
I simply provided an image for reference AND THEN found I had to correct misinformation being promoted.
Tom if you are or have been a customer...Thank You. Your patronage of 914werke is greatly appreciated.
Im not sure where you get the implication or suggestion that the OP buy only from select sources?
If I appeared to be picking on you, my apologies, not intended but you did post inaccurate info, based on vendor marketing detail, in this thread ... more than once

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 15 2021, 04:28 PM

Guys.... Warren is my customer, I think he's got someone who knows a little bit about the job.

This is exactly all the parts for this job, just not crazy about the muffler.

This is what Warren is getting...



Attached image(s)

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 15 2021, 06:19 PM

Nope - not missing that at all.

I understand that the other bits-n-pieces need to be changed out, & I referred the OP to SMC & a few other source to get some of the 73-74 Exhaust related plates etc. which are now being reproduced - rather than using a bunch of used HE tubes & deflectors, etc. with that beautiful engine that Mark H. built & posted above.

From my posts it should've been clear that I got it, & stood corrected - fi anyone bothered to read them - instead of stopping at the replies & continued to - that horse is long since dead.

Frankly, I didn't want to spend a bunch of back-n-forth time debating this issue after I'd conceded that there were other parts needed to backdate his 75 2L.


Tom
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Posted by: Tom_T Apr 15 2021, 08:06 PM

Yes & I'm frustrated that the debate continued after I'd already conceded that 75-76 was different per your post #11 Rich.

I was basically correcting the folks who were talking that the OP Warren had a `75 1.8 - so I pointed out that he'd clarified in his post #3 that it's a 2.0 75, & that all reccos should be based on that sub-model.

As I said in my post #14 - I'd posted the 2nd post that you blew up over BEFORE I saw your post about the 75-76 being different & backdating - and after my initial post when I said to correct me if I was wrong.

I also said that Warren should check his current parts stash to see what he may already have on hand for the retrofit HEs. That's pretty common sense advice.

Yes - I've bought various parts from you - & I'm sorry that you don't remember that.

I got the impression that you felt that my comments initially about Warren not needing the other parts, as my interfering with you're trying to offer the package in your photo. And I really don't think that there was anything wrong if you were - the OP was asking for guidance & parts.

So sorry for misreading your intentions.

And NO - I did NOT post inaccurate vendor info in here after I saw your 75-76 correction - as I've noted several times now.

After that I posted another source for HE & other exhaust parts at SMC, as well as suggesting several other sources.

By the time I posted the parts AFTER seeing your post that the 75-76 is different from 73-74, I had moved on to offering additional sources for the added bits he'll need to backdate - including the repro air guide plate, L & R flapper boxes, & other mounting hardware & gaskets & kits of same.

No not all inclusive - but I clearly stated SOME of the parts he'd need to install the backdated 2.0 SSI HE's were there.


For example the air guide plate - should he need one/both -
https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Air-Guide-Plate-Left-914-73-74-p15921.html

IIRC some of the other parts sources also carry a Right Air Guide Plate repro as well.


SMC also carries the correct JP/Dansk/SSI 2.0 HEs, the JP/Dansk 2.0 Banana Muffler & their alternative SS 2.0 Muffler - but figure 15% off per my sale note below:

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/SSI-Heat-Exchanger-Set-914-4-2-0-p21825.html

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Dansk-Muffler-914-4-2-0-72-75-p24718.html

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Stainless-Steel-Muffler-914-4-2-0-70-76-p31556.html

Warren - also look for the other gaskets & hardware yourself Warren for the SSI-HE Backdate at this SMC link:

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/heat-a-c-and-exhaust/914-heat-a-c-and-exhaust-c242/

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Heat-Exchanger-Mounting-Kit-914-70-76-p25000.html

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Muffler-Gasket-914-73-74-p18863.html - x2

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Muffler-Gasket-Set-914-4-70-74-p23839.html
(also several others available in kits or individually - my mechanic prefers the copper ones, & he was training on 914s by Porsche back in 1969)


Also Warren - the L & R Flapper Boxes if needed are here (hoses, clamps, etc. are at the page linked further down for the "bits-n-pieces") -

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Heat-Control-Box-Right-914-p18610.html

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Heat-Control-Box-Left-914-p18609.html


Those above were my previous suggestions from post #14, and they were & are correct for his backdating his 75-76 with 73-74 SSI HEs etc.

Rich - I do not believe that ANY of those parts above are incorrect for Warren's backdating - nor were the ones I'd posted at post #14 after standing corrected at that post.

So I don't know why you said that I'd given incorrect parts references?


But if you feel otherwise Rich - then just give Warren the links to the correct parts, and leave further recriminations of me out of the discussion ... or I'll just get testy again.


Warren - you'll have to hunt down the rest of the bits at Bruce's List & Rich's photo at other new & used parts sources - assuming that you don't have any of them on hand.

Bruce had offered the parts on his list to get blasted & PC'ed if you do need any or all of them.

I don't know what part(s) Rich has available, other than I think that he mentioned his 2.0 muffler hangers.

Part of the reason that I suggested SMC as a source, is that they've just started a 15% off Spring Sale - according to the SMC email which I received today. So Warren could save 15% on all parts ordered for his 914 build - but he'll need to check if that is the best price for each at other sources - even with 15% off.

For Warren & all - the 15% off code is APRIL15 at checkout to apply the discount.

So Rich & RJames & all - let's all just move on now.

The is officially dead now!

Cheers!
Tom
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Posted by: Tom_T Apr 15 2021, 08:20 PM

What a gorgeous engine Mark & Warren!

IMHO what I would do if it were mine or for any 73-76 - after sinking serious coin into that beautiful & strong running engine - would be to:

1. Get the JP/Dansk/SSI 2.0 HEs -

2. Along with whatever other parts & bits were needed due to either backdating &/or worn parts -

3. Then put either:

3a. A nice NOS OEM 2.0 "Banana" with the OE Chrome Exhaust Tip/End to dress it up - or

3b. A new JP/Dansk "new Banana" with the chromed end pipe - or

3c. Try to find one of the better breathing OE NOS "Sport" Leistritz "Banana" mufflers to extract a couple more horses out of that great motor!

(PS - modified the above for spelling error & to make it an easier to read list.)

That's my suggestions & my choices (see below) - but it's your car, & your $$s, & your choice.

BTW - I do have the SS J-Pipes, SSI 2.0 HEs & NOS Liestritz "Sport Banana" muffler to go on my 73's resto project, & I just need to find a nice chrome exhaust tip to top it off .... once I can actually get to my 914 & get it back on track & into the shops (too much shit happening to do so now & for a while).

Enjoy that 914 Warren!
Tom
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Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 16 2021, 07:39 AM

That's not the engine Warren is getting, that's another customers engine that I've completed and is waiting for the 914 so I can install it.
This one the shroud and runner colours are not correct, the customer just wanted Silver with black.

Warren has the 914 with the creamsicle suspension so he's leaning towards leaving it white and black.

The other 2.0 Djets I'm doing the shroud powder coat colour will be a rough approximation of raw magnesium and the runners will be primer gray.

Posted by: Warren914 Apr 16 2021, 08:19 AM

I didn't think it looked like my white engine.

After some thought and looking around, I've ordered new 2.0 heat exchangers from Restoration Design. I don't want banged up parts going on what will be an expensive restoration. Engine work is just the start. Paint and body will be done next. The car will never be concourse due to incorrect body color, painted suspension, bolts in the floor, rear reflector, etc. I'm expecting it to be a very solid and higher end driver.

The car had a dual tip exhaust when I bought it in 2001. That was swapped out with a single output muffler with a catalytic converter removal pipe. I don't know what other parts are missing or need to be replaced. Awaiting a list of other items needed to back date from 1975 2.0 and will get those moving too. The OEM rear valence will be in place, so the muffler will have to fit correctly. I trust Mark will get this done right!

I'm all for supporting site sponsors as appropriate. Unfortunately the exchange rate, shipping, brokerage fees, etc make ordering from the USA impractical for some items.

Everyone should play nicely please... It wasn't the sort of exchange anticipated when I asked the question.

Posted by: Root_Werks Apr 16 2021, 08:41 AM

Dunno if this is still true or not, but 10+ years ago I ran across a set of 1.7 SSI's for cheap. Was told the ID of the pipes were the same as SSI's 2.0 units. Turned out to be true, so I bought them and installed on my 2.0.

Funny thing is, actually liked them better than the 2.0 HE's. The muffler sits a little bit higher and is less visible. It turned out really well.

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Apr 16 2021, 09:22 AM

they are the same, stainless sold to dansk who makes them all now, all of the regular suppliers stock them.

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 16 2021, 09:44 AM

I don't think a stock 2.0 banana will fit, and IIRC the 1.8 muffler is not as free flowing as a 2.0 banana.
But IIRC Ben now has a nice 1.7/1.8 muffler, so the 1.7/1.8 HE is a good solution if on a budget.

Warren has decided to go new so I'd go with the 2.0 SSI just because there's a bigger selection of mufflers including the 2.0 banana.

Posted by: Root_Werks Apr 16 2021, 10:54 AM

Ah yes, forgot I was running a Bursch header/muffler. Correct, wouldn't think a 1.7 bannanananana muffler would work well. Might work, but be restrictive.

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 16 2021, 11:17 AM

Warren just drop shipped me a new set of SSI's from RD, I should have them next mid week

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 16 2021, 11:23 AM

It's still a nice looking motor Mark, & FYI the PCA Concours don't judge originality anymore since the late 1970s - early `80s (except as a tie-breaker on a competitor challenge at the PCA National Parade Concours only).

So IMHO your motors would score high at any Concours, although the running attributes are far more important to most owners - myself included - & your reputation on that end is right up there with the top 914 shops nationally - including FAT Performance & that guy down in Georgia who used to do 914s!


Tom
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Posted by: Tom_T Apr 16 2021, 11:54 AM

Apologies for my part in that.

Warren - the Leistritz 2.0 Sport Muffler looks just like the non-sport OE 2.0 Banana - so it would fit your setup if the basic Banana fits your 75 setup AFAIK (Mark can verify). They come up on here occasionally (which was how I got mine), & on evil-bay, TheSamba, etc. forums, so you could do a stock Banana for now until you can find one - if you want the supposed +/- 5-10% performance improvement that Porsche claimed for them back in the day.

I was trying to fing my pix of my Leistritz with its p/n for your reference to do searches, but I'm not finding which SD card or laptop file that they're in easily right now, & the parts are currently inaccessible in my garage due to the construction site going on here. If I find them later this weekend, then I'll post it here FYI.

Also - check with SMC for other parts you may need - because they're now doing something with Canadian customers for free or lower shipping & something on the exchange rate I think - for which they sent out emails in Feb-Mar. That was another reason that I'd suggested them, but forgot to say so. So shoot them an email & ask about it, because they carry more wide ranging 914 parts than RD.

And as for Concours - as I noted for Mark above - PCA does not care about correct paint color, reflectors, nor any originality at all! It's just a cleaning, detailing & presentation contest. I've been a PCA Concours judge for 10+ years, & we had an EV 914 conversion win best in 914 Class & Best in Street Division out of 30+ P-cars here in the Orange County Region PCA back in 2015 - & you can't get more unoriginal than that! It was a beautiful car BTW!

So if you're at all interested in showing/entering your 914 - just do it with your local PCA Region & Zone shows, & there are members on here who are members up there.

You can still drive your 914 & enter in PCA Concours, but if you're not into that, then don't compete, but you can just show P-cars in unjudged "Display" at most PCA events. So have fun & share your 914!

Good Luck with your Resto!
Tom
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Posted by: Tom_T Apr 16 2021, 12:20 PM

FYI for you &/or others with the 1.7/18 setup - JP/Dansk is still producing the 1.7/1.8 Sport Muffler version - which should be a straight bolt-on upgrade to either the OE steel 1.7 HEs, or the SSI version.

https://sierramadrecollection.com/914-914-6-70-76-/Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/914-Heat-A-C-and-Exhaust/Dansk-Sport-Exhaust-Kit-914-1-7-1-8-69-76-p54320.html



It should be available at P-parts sellers other than SMC too AFAIK.

However to be clear - I'm NOT recommending this over a 2.0 stock or Sport Banana with 2.0 HEs (OE or SSI).

The fitment difference with the 1.7/1.8 vs 2.0 steel or SSI HEs is that the 1.7 has a higher rise in the pipes out the back, so that the smaller diameter 1.7 muffler is up further to the trunk floor/heat shield - whereas the 2.0 pipes are more straight back due to the larger diameter Banana muffler for the same clearance above.

Jeff Bowlsby's Classic 914 website has good comparative pix of these, exhaust/muffler brackets & other parts as a reference.

https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/TechNotebook.htm







Tom
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Posted by: Warren914 Apr 16 2021, 02:52 PM

The PO may have made changes. Mark is going to have to check what parts are presently on the car. Once he has a list it will be time to order things. I should just mail him my VISA card...

Posted by: mepstein Apr 16 2021, 06:06 PM

It’s worth it. A good heating system really adds to the enjoyment of the car.

Posted by: Warren914 Apr 17 2021, 05:47 AM

A clean heater would be awesome. Mine was coated in oil. It smelled really bad when the blower was turned on.

Posted by: mb911 Apr 17 2021, 10:49 AM

Wow lots of information on this thread. Sounds like Mark has everything under control and he is fully capable of helping Warren making very educated selections. I do think this thread serves as a great reference for everyone doing this same exact project.

Posted by: poorsche914 Apr 19 2021, 11:26 AM

Jake still builds Type 4s. In fact, his daughter (10yo?) just built her first T4 which is now powering a classic VW Beetle Convertible

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 22 2021, 07:55 AM

I just got Warren's new set of SSI's delivered from RD, real cool to see them all shiny and new... but they're SSI's. Only difference is the old SSI's came in a cardboard box with "SSI" printed on it. BTW I can show you an old SSI box if you like.
They look exactly like SSI's...so do you really need a pic?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25265

Now Warren needs a muffler...Oh yeah an engine might help as well.

Posted by: Warren914 Apr 22 2021, 05:01 PM

Needs an engine?? That's your job! Hope it's as shiny as those heat exchangers...