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Posted by: wonkipop Nov 25 2021, 04:35 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 & @wonkipop want to hear from members who own 1974 1.8s.
to assist with a topic in originality section of the website.

Cars need to be reasonably original with L jet fuel injection system intact.

If you have the time and can help us with some information it would be great.

information.

1. Vin Date - month and year (no need to post vin numbers if you don't want to). thats the date on the driver door sticker.

2. Karmann plate #. or if you have already done the maths, the day and week of the year the car began production.

3. Image of engine bay emission sticker (lhs above the air cleaner - white with red letters). sticker should say whether it is an EC-A or an EC-B engine and whether it is california + EPA or only EPA.

4. image of engine tune up sticker.
this is the small white sticker that is on LHS engine tin just below fan shroud.
most of them are gone by now, but some engines still have them.

5. image of the throttle body. image of the distributor.
we are looking at the vacuum hose set up between the distributor and the throttle body.

-----

Posted by: StarBear Nov 25 2021, 05:46 PM

Especially if your 1.8L was built in late 73 or the earlier part of 74 - it seems like the setups varied quite a bit from month-to-month during this period for MY 74. We're trying to make sense of the varied information we're seeing; this "should" help us diagnose weird startup/running/decel conditions being experienced.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 25 2021, 08:55 PM

Would be helpful to add some samples of these labels to this thread.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 25 2021, 10:03 PM

emission sticker.




tune up sticker





throttle body.
(see if green retard hose and grey advance hose are connected and where).





distributor
(see if green retard hose and grey advance are connected).

Posted by: Arno914 Nov 26 2021, 02:19 AM

You probably know this already: Only US 1.8l 914´s had the L-Jetronic. European 1.8l´s where equipped with Solex 40PDSIT carburators, the only 914´s without a fuel injection. So the 1.8´s are really special in some way.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 26 2021, 03:34 AM

yep

but the ANO engines are not of interest. interesting as they are.

just the info in this thread about the L jets.

Posted by: Van B Nov 26 2021, 12:05 PM

Jeff, good idea for posting an example. It gave me good intel on where to focus my efforts on gently removing the undercoating to reveal the sticker.

Gents, here’s my contribution:



Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 26 2021, 03:43 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B

thanks mate. gold.

(you might have worked it out already - the karmann # = started build on monday 10th dec and was the fifth car for the day - 12 days after StarBears.)

Posted by: Van B Nov 26 2021, 05:15 PM

I have not worked that out. Would you mind breaking that down for me?!
Useless info, but still very cool lol!

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 26 2021, 05:40 PM

5019505

50 = 50th week of calendar year (1973)
1 = day of week. = monday.
9 = karmann factory at osnabruck (spelling?)
5 = how they write zero (germans? don't ask), if its a 6 means they went over 100 for the day.
05 = fifth car of the day.

if i have that wrong @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 will put it right.

nice and early in the day when they started to weld the body together.
before they went off to the pub at lunchtime. mine was done in the danger period,
can't work out if it was before lunch or right after lunch.

Posted by: RRietman Nov 26 2021, 05:57 PM

[attachmentid=816
423]

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 26 2021, 06:00 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11124

thanks mate.


EDIT.

just to fill in a bit on why we are after this.

yours stacks up against our EC-B stickered cars.
has a vacuum retard and advance function on dist fully hooked up to throttle body.
that set up accords with the late Cap'n Krusty take on all L jets.

however - there is very definitely an EC-A stickered car. one at least.
and that likely has a set up @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 says was the L jet set up.
only the vacuum retard function is hooked up.
dr. 914 says that set up kicked in start of jan 74.

but there is defintely EC-Bs being produced right through jan 74 at minimum.
i have one. its end of jan 74.

it will be real gold when someone throws up a EC-A stickered car with an intact setup.

also there is an EC-B sticker that says its only EPA approved. but we don't know the setup.

a few members out there with those setups might start to shine light on the mysteries of the 1.8.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 26 2021, 06:09 PM

2 weeks prior to mine. I’m sure we’ll gather an EC-A car soon.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 26 2021, 07:02 PM

and in the window for the fume can in the frunk?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11124

- sorry to bug you. where is the charcoal cannister in your car?

Posted by: Shivers Nov 26 2021, 07:37 PM

I have one of these but it is just a tub, nothing on it at all. Going to Frankenteener it with my 72'. Sorry I can't help.

Hey dude, I did this chop a few years back for a competition at Freakingnews.com. I was to do an Australian road sign. Did I nail it?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 26 2021, 07:43 PM

an EC-A?

even VIN and Karmann number would be handy if you have it?
puts a date on the car.

if the sticker is there, does it say California and EPA approved or just EPA approved.

thanks for the reply.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 26 2021, 07:48 PM

close

you left off venomous politicians.

Posted by: Shivers Nov 26 2021, 07:51 PM

I registered the VIN here under the name So.Cal.914 The rest was stripped off the tub by the body shop I bought the tub from. The tub is coming from my brothers where it sits in a storage container, this winter. So I can't go out and look to make it easier.

Posted by: Shivers Nov 26 2021, 07:52 PM

Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 27 2021, 02:32 AM

You forgot the drop bears.

Posted by: Shivers Nov 27 2021, 08:31 AM

Hahaha, I popped this pic into google image search yesterday and it is being used all over the place ( kinda cool ) and while reading at these sites I read about carnivorous Kuala's. Had I known, hahaha

Posted by: Van B Nov 27 2021, 09:10 AM

I'm gonna start calling you Shivers the thread pirate!

Posted by: Shivers Nov 27 2021, 09:27 AM

Aaarrrg

Posted by: RRietman Nov 27 2021, 02:46 PM

pic of can in frunk
thanks
Randy

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 27 2021, 04:50 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24781
thanks for the can info, looked up the car on member vin.
its not in that critical zone between @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 car and a green car i found on internet.
but randy's car is with its vin and k number. i'm just going to work out what that means for a date close to where this can thing happens.

as an aside.

so far all the cars we know about for EC-B are grouped from nov 73 to end of jan 74.

thanks for can photo @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11124

Posted by: Shivers Nov 27 2021, 05:07 PM

Sorry I couldn't help.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 27 2021, 05:14 PM

no worries mate. come down to aus one day and check out the wildlife.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 27 2021, 09:28 PM

Here is the data from my 1974 1.8L L-jet. Stock FI with the exception of Pertronix ignition drop in module. Built 15th week of 1974, Wednesday April 10th, 1974, Karmann factory Osnabrück, 552nd or 52nd car. My car is an EC-A engine code. Now at some point in this car's life, someone decided to cap off the throttle body connection for the ignition retard side and "T" into a closer manifold vacuum source which is shared by the fuel pressure regulator etc. I have no idea why, unless it was easier to connect there instead of running it under the intake manifold back to the throttle body port.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 27 2021, 09:29 PM

More photos


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Van B Nov 27 2021, 11:40 PM

Oh the guys are gonna be so happy when they see this!

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 27 2021, 11:55 PM

STOKED



mr. b is going to be happy too.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 - this is your dad's car right. been in the family.
its more than gold.

and its a 606 engine stencil.
mr. b can get the headache figuring that out.

we got 604, 605, now a 606 and he has a A with a 607 on his website.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 27 2021, 11:58 PM

My father bought the car new in 1974 from a now defunct dealership called Ely Porsche Audi in Hayward, California, USA. It's been a California car it's entire life. The 914 is still in his name, but I drive, try to maintain and show the vehicle now.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 12:09 AM

re your observations on retard port.
maybe that is what an A is? rather than somebody having done something to it?
it might have been like that since new?

they do something with the A version which is different to the B and that is what we are trying to figure out.

also lurking out there somewhere will be a EC-B that is not california certified.
mr. b has a sticker for one but no further information. it definitely existed too.

Posted by: Van B Nov 28 2021, 12:15 AM

Based on my trials, I would wager that the ECU is different, or at least the program. My car simply would not start in that configuration.

Posted by: nihil44 Nov 28 2021, 12:34 AM

My contribution. Imported into Aus in 1990. Converted to RHD but otherwise seem pretty original. It had a wack up the left rear quarter and another quarter grafted on and not very well. It didn't have a charcoal canister in the front and so I guess that might have ben dropped off as too hard to replace the line/s to the rear.

VIN 4742908959
Engine # EC005018
Karmann chassis # 47 1 9 642

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 12:40 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14058

i was waiting for you to come through.
you ripper.
an A with some vital detail? its a mystery.
might need to ask more about that vac set up.



what this is proving is they are mixing the A in with the B.
as to why? but they are not doing them one after the other.
and they are both california and EPA certified.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 12:46 AM

parts book says ECU is not changed.
but it says there are two different throttle bodies.
thats it. thats the only difference in the parts book.

but its not that easy.
because it seems lurking out there was an non california version.
go figure. germans.

i dunno yet? don't think anyone does.

anyone with a B has the Cap'n Krusty version.
but others swear that there are different ones when it comes to this vac hose hook up.

???????????

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 28 2021, 12:54 AM

I don't why the vacuum T was installed in between with the fuel pressure regulator and decel valve was done to connect the retard side of the vacuum port of my distributor. The port on my throttle body is capped off as pictured. I do know the engine had some major work done to it in the 80s cylinder heads etc. So it now has the configuration of two vacuum t's connected to the manifold vacuum port off the intake plenum giving vacuum to the retard side of the distributor, fuel pressure regulator and the decel valve, instead of just the decel valve and fuel pressure regulator.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 03:05 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 don't worry as to what or the why yet.
for now the thread has gone..........

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 05:27 AM

you are going to have to expand on that theory.
and i know you can!

all ears.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 28 2021, 08:21 AM

Pandora must have been really busy those months.

Posted by: Porschef Nov 28 2021, 08:45 AM

@Big Len

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 03:11 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080
its possible the retard vac hose set up was modified with the engine rebuild.

the way i see it the one reliable bit of original information is the white engine tune sticker.

that sticker shows only a retard vacuum hose to distributor.
instructs hose to be off for initial idle setting.

there is no hose shown to the right of distributor on diagram to the advance port.
VW has a consistent practice on these stickers across all models to show any hose that is there and to show if it is either disconnected or left connected for the idle setting.

so no hose on the advance distributor would have been the original state of the car.

to note, no hose means no connected hose to anywhere else.
it has to be remembered vw would have fixed a hose on to that advance vacuum port and tucked it under the distributor. the hose in that instance protects the interior of the vacuum port from moisture and dirt. this is how others describe their L Jet set up in old threads here.

from there you get to the throttle body.
it would have had the retard hose connected to the retard port down near the tin on the forward facing part of the throttle body. which it currently does.
the advance port would either not have been present on the throttle body or it would have been capped with a rubber or hard plastic fitting.

for whatever reason along the way, the advance port has been activated.
in a manner similar to a EC-B, but not quite.
its been activated with a manifold source after the throttle plate as well as the source before the throttle plate used on the EC-B. i won't go into that here. it works for you.

basically this one is the @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 version. when it is in its original state.
thats what i work out from what i am seeing. retard connection only to TB.

we have not seen a fully intact version of this yet linking the distributor/TB set up to an emissions sticker and a tune sticker but i'm thinking this is it. EC-A = CP version.

its being installed as late as april 74.
the one on @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 website is first week of jan 74.
and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14058 has one from november 74.

its great that you have posted the photos you did.
they match the car on @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 's website.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 03:12 PM

at least its possible to see that a 604 and 605 are EC-B engines.
and 606 and 607 are EC-A engines.

or maybe our statistical sample isn't big enough yet?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 03:16 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14058

yours is real interesting.

theoretically it should be like @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 .
if that is what an EC-A is. by that i mean what i describe above for his car as possibly original set up.

but images seem to be saying its got no retard function.
is that so?
i found a thread on throttle body rebuilds and you had posted an image of your rebuilt TB. it appeared to show no retard port down below the idle screw?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 03:33 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080

i think i have figured out what the modification on yours does and why it might have been done.
its someone's idea of how to cancel retard at standing idle.

the basic idea would be the advance on the dist is being pulled at idle and counteracts the pull in opposite direction from retard.

retard at idle was an emissions thing.
it made combustion cooler for lower NOx emission.

the plumbing in the modification possibly also changes the way the distributor comes off advance as you deaccelerate. someone has done it because they believe it makes it drive a bit sweeter is my guess. it probably does, you are driving it. the only way to know what its doing would be to drive another 914 with the original set up and compare alongside.

stuff gets done to these cars.

esp. these ones with the first real smog engines.

EDIT
actually i might have that the wrong way around, re-reading your original description.
it seems they have gone for a different source of vacuum for the retard than the throttle body?

and maybe took the factory cap off the advance port and put it on the retard port.
and connected up advance when it was never connected. could be as simple as that.
some-one familiar with the EC-B engines looked at this one and decided it was "wrong" so they made an EC-B style set up?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 04:19 PM

another member here working on the texas twins has supplied what he has still on his shell.

its an EC-A california + EPA certified.
Vin is 13391. its exactly 30 cars after mine.
so late jan. 74

an EC-A being fitted virtually alongside an EC-B.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 28 2021, 04:30 PM

So weird. Wonder if tuneup sticker specs are different. Getting more data; eventually we WILL find a correlating factor or spec.
Key question is : How are EC-A and EC-B engine equipment or setups different. “Should” be more than just the mileage/drivability setup issues.
Then, that whole engine tin numbers issue. No consistency to establish a pattern.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 28 2021, 04:57 PM

the factory manual describes only the EC-B set up.
talks about disconnecting both vacuum hoses for idle set - doing the timing at idle.

no mention of the single hose set up or descriptions of a vacuum hose going nowhere off distributor, or advance hose not being connected.

one thing to keep in mind. these are L Jet numero uno.
they likely were playing around as they went with different kinds of fine tuning of this set up. that double vac distributor had interesting possibilities when you think about it.
it had plenty of capacity in built for mechanical advance in terms of "performance" behaviour. but playing around with how you activated the vacuum advance had big pluses for meeting emissions and doing other stuff. and maybe some big minuses too.

the L jet on the 412s is set up completely differently at the same time. its running EGR in 1974. VW are really experimented with L jet doing lots of different things.
far as i know 412s also ran the EC code engine. but whether it was an EC-A or B or something else i don't know. never seen a 412 emission sticker to know.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 28 2021, 09:04 PM

So what you're saying is that according to my tune up sticker, the vac advance side of the distributor was not supposed to be hooked up to the rear port facing the trunk of the throttle body (I've checked no vacuum until off idle at the rear port and manifold vacuum at the forward facing port)? I've only driven the car as you see pictured in the engine bay. I never drove the car prior to any engine work etc. I would love to see a EC-A setup L-Jet engine in bone stock configuration to see if I should remove the added vacuum t and route the retard side of the distributor to the manifold vacuum side of the throttle body. This thread is becoming more and more interesting as I've read through this.

Posted by: Van B Nov 28 2021, 10:40 PM

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-26011-1636865737_thumb.jpg

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 02:42 AM

yes, thats what i understand the tune up sticker to mean.

our EC-B cars have a tune up sticker with both hoses shown and shown disconnected for timing at idle.

its interesting when you look at something like a 2.0L they have i believe both hoses shown connected for the timing.

it would in fact be easy to make yours an EC-B. you just plug the retard line directly into the retard port on the throttle body and take the cap off. thats what i think.

but you have a form of manifold vacuum on the retard so why upset the apple cart.
in a way you already have an EC-B set up.

we would also love to see a bone stock EC-A setup. we are guessing what it is off the tune up sticker and description by @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 . his description of how he believes L jet ought to be set up seems to accord with EC-A.

---
the weird thing is the texas twin car probably came off the line the same day as mine.
given its 30 numbers on in the VIN and mine is about the middle of a day's production.
i forget the exact number. mine is around 45th car for the day. so the texas twin is probably right at the end of the day. so they are building EC-A and EC-B on the same day. and the funny thing is the dealers could easily have made an EC-B into an EC-A by just unplugging the advance and capping it and vise versa.
as far as i can tell. maybe there is more to it. i don't know.

Posted by: Big Len Nov 29 2021, 12:26 PM

Here's a few pics of my 1.8. I don't see a 3 digit number anywhere.

Posted by: Big Len Nov 29 2021, 12:28 PM

Posted by: Big Len Nov 29 2021, 12:28 PM

Posted by: Big Len Nov 29 2021, 12:29 PM

Posted by: Big Len Nov 29 2021, 12:30 PM

Posted by: Van B Nov 29 2021, 01:14 PM

@Big Len
First, your car looks incredible man, I'm jealous!

Second, where you were standing for that last photo, look just inside the engine bay there under the little section of grill. There should be emissions sticker everyone is talking about. It's tucked up in that corner pretty good. easier to spot really if you stand on the right side of the car and look across.

Posted by: Big Len Nov 29 2021, 01:47 PM

Thanks for the compliment......Ok Van, I'll check.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 03:40 PM

thanks for posting up @Big Len
very nice looking car.

1st of Feb 74? its about 600 after mine.
the plumbing looks the same as what is on my engine.
likely its an EC-B?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 03:58 PM

hey van - you yourself look like you got your hands on a very original car from the photos you posted. thats got to be getting real hard to do these days. it won't take much to clean it up. even the seat belt interlock was working - sort of.

Posted by: Van B Nov 29 2021, 04:56 PM

It’s covered in overspray from a paint job that is one step above a rattle can paint job and my hoses are slowly becoming an auto parts store special. But yeah, when I’m driving it, I don’t care… so maybe I need to just stop working on it lol!

Posted by: StarBear Nov 29 2021, 05:24 PM

His is indeed incredible! Among the best of the best.

Posted by: Van B Nov 29 2021, 08:59 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753
Got the paper, thanks bud!
How are you attaching them to the engine tin? I assume with some kind of temperature resistant over laminate?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 09:43 PM

just found another member here on the vin list through an older thread where he was asking about throttle body stuff. he has a 7/74 1.8 late in the production run.
from the photos posted in thread it was plumbed up EC-B style.

sent a PM.

-----

trawling some old archived sales ads on internet turned up a may 74 with EC-B.

but have not managed to come across an EC-B 49 states set up.
there is still just the sticker on mr. b's website.

Posted by: Van B Nov 29 2021, 09:59 PM

Wait, EC-B is the 49 state setup. My car was never a California car. Bought new in New York and hase been up and down the east coast only it’s entire life.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 10:05 PM

yep, so is mine. its a maryland car bought a stone's throw from the white house.
but its California + EPA stickered. all the EC-Bs we have uncovered to date are California and EPA (ie 50 state cars).

if you wanted to do some more strategic carpet bombing of your emission sticker you might uncover the bit where it says EPA or alternatively it might say EPA + california.

always a chance you have a mythical 49 state EC-B?
the only evidence there is such a thing is a lone sticker on mr. b's website.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 10:10 PM

here is the sticker for the mythical car.

Posted by: Van B Nov 29 2021, 10:17 PM

Well, ok, but not tonight. Do you know Mr. Researcher, when California regs changed? Is it possible that the sticker changed because California regs changed in 74 or 75 but the cars had not yet changed?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 10:27 PM

i am as dumb as all you guys when it comes to pollution regs.

but i got curious when mr. b told us there was a california and there was a 49 states car.
because that is not the history i knew commonly told re 1.8s.
the accepted version is all 1.8s were 50 state cars.

mr. b popped up his sticker.

his theory was that an EC-A was 49 state.
and an EC-B was california.

but thats not so. the stickers prove it.

the only thing i can find of any real substance is that california demanded significantly lower NOx emissions for 1974. and that would not show up in the standard smog tests of the time. they measured CO, CO2 and HC at the smog test. thats the smog test where you drove your car in and they stuck the probe in (this won't hurt a bit )

but where NOx etc got properly analysed was in a much more serious test the manufacturers had to do. that test involved pulling a car off the production line at intervals and testing it against data already lodged with the EPA and CARB.
technically what EC-A and EC-B mean is not engine type but engine test - at least for the EPA etc.

so thats what i know.

i was once a geek. i am returning to my childhood. its probably a sign of senility.

but its kind of interesting since the 1.8 is the first serious smog engine.
and they did it without too much choke down stuff on it.

i've certainly made my self learn about double vac distributors and its given me a bit of a sense of what is different between an EC-A and an EC-B.

my theory is they are equal in emissions for the purposes of the 1974 tailpipe smog test and certification.
they both retard at idle to get NOx down.
so long as CO/CO2/HC etc measured fine at the smog test the california authorities would have said the car was in tune and passed.
even though they were not actually directly measuring NOx.

but they behave differently at cruise and when you go to stamp the power while you are already at cruise.

the ones with the vac advance should be advanced well beyond what the mechanical advance does on distributor. thats going to be great for fuel economy. but its not going to be so great for instant bright throttle response if you plant the foot while already at cruise?

someone with a better feel for how all the vacuum advance stuff worked might know better?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 10:34 PM

re 49 state cars.

theoretically given that only california had the higher demand on lower NOx levels at curb idle, a 49 state car would possibly not need retard at idle.

there are 1.8 throttle bodies out there without the retard port.

nihil44 has one. its not that his is capped, its actually not even opened up on the throttle body at all. whether its original or not i don't know, but its what is currently on his car when you look closely. no retard port on the forward facing side of throttle body.

-----

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 is sceptical of my fuel economy versus bright throttle to explain the EC-A and EC-B scenarios (which have the full 50 state stickers). he is probably right.
but i can't think of anything else that goes with the set ups.
its not about emissions as far as i can tell.

but if i saw a 1.8 without retard for idle i would say straight away, yes that is about emissions and its not as clean as one with the retard port for idle.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 10:42 PM

Posted by: Van B Nov 29 2021, 11:00 PM

Well, I guess I’ll get my lucky underseat quarter tomorrow when I get home and do some more scratching. We’ll see if my car adds another data point or not… honestly though, if my car has the word California on it, I’m gonna respray that sticker lol…

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 11:26 PM

this is the only other thing i know about US smog tests.
you guys would know better than me? - i had to go back over old stuff in my file.

i did do one smog test for the car when i lived in chicago.
it had to only pass the low idle test.
i assume that meant the standard at the time the car was sold new was the standard for ever after - so this was the chicago smog test that applied in 1974?
i did find some stuff that said chicago was an early adopter of smog testing right behind LA.

(it looked like i passed the high idle test as well even though it was not necessary?
though i don't understand the CO/CO2% mix bit).

a bit more snooping seemed to show that initial california smog tests back when they started doing it were also only single speed tests at low idle.

all california was most interested in at the time = NOx at idle? (ie jammed in LA traffic at a standstill pumping out the main ingredient of smog?).

if you look at that emissions standards material i posted above, California was prepared to wear higher CO emissions as a pay off for lower NOx. (thats what happens if you lower combustion temps to reduce NOx, CO goes up so their higher CO than 49 states makes sense). they only have to wear higher CO for one year - in 75 they get cats which turn the CO into CO2 (at that time considered a relatively harmless gas in pollution terms).

thats all the material i've got on evil emissions regs Van.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 29 2021, 11:42 PM

van - USA emissions regs ran on MY for cars was the other bit of detail i found.
so calendar year does not play into it causing something to change half way though a model year say. its from start to finish of a model year.

Posted by: Van B Nov 30 2021, 12:09 AM

I agree about the model year applicability, but that wouldn’t prevent a manufacturer choosing to meet compliance early… and since when has Porsche ever left a model alone? I’ve got a rare 996 with a cable throttle and no electronics out in the garage that reminds me every day how Porsche should’ve stopped fiddling at that moment lol!

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 30 2021, 12:14 AM

Here is some Pass/Fail standards for a 1976 2.0L for California. I am also a smog tech where I work. So I will try and see if I can find any other information.



Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 30 2021, 12:31 AM

CARB EO A-7-5 which has since been rescinded and A-7-5-A the updated Executive Order. I forgot I had this saved to my computer for classic data. Note 1974 California standards for EC-A engine. Shows Vacuum Retard with centrifugal advance which I guess means my advance shouldn't be connected to the rear facing port on the throttle body.


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Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 12:44 AM

nice stuff @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080

there are all sorts of folks here. who would have thought we got a smog expert.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 12:46 AM

yeah.

they are fiddling the L jets.
couldn't agree more.

and they are fiddling with them for something other than smog?
cause after all they are porsche.

the funny bit is they are offering the fiddle as a simultaneous alternative.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 12:51 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080

that really is the japanese gold of beer that info.

its 412 stuff there. EC-d!!! so its definitely 1974.
no 412s in 1975 MY.

mr. b will be beside himself.

platinum.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 01:07 AM

those EC-d or is it EC-D (whatever) - they had EGR in 1974 on those VW 412s.

i found a pic of an original 412 variant with the full original gear on it.
and the EGR isn't even like the EGR on the 75 914s.

lot of mucking about going on at VW hq in 74?

i am not familiar with 412s. or 411s we never got them in australia.
there were a handful running around here 30 years ago that came in from south africa,
but they were all twin carb jobs.

i'll bet there is an EC-c (EC-C) and its a 412 without the EGR?

Posted by: Van B Nov 30 2021, 01:18 AM

I'm curious if the signature dates on those forms start to reveal something as we build more data

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 01:28 AM

there is something going on - thats for sure.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 30 2021, 01:44 AM

I wouldn't call myself a smog expert haha. I just happen to know where to look up information when smogging a vehicle, if the vehicle emission control label is missing. I was shown these websites one day taking a update course to renew my smog license.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 02:10 AM

that stuff you posted is fantastic mate.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 02:38 AM

ok @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080

i have scanned through your stuff you posted.

its all there --- exactly what i have found in the parts manual.

the ECU is the same from the VW vans (kombis) and 412s.
the AFM is the same.
both do not change. universal.

all that is different is the 914s run a different distributor.
only the 914s run VR. vacuum retard distributors.

but the vans and the 412s run EGR.

you set them up different at idle in terms of idle revs.
they all have the same CO. 4.5% max.

its all in the distributor!?

and of course how that must connect to the throttle body.

and this is somehow being submitted in the first quarter of 1974 calendar year.

,,,,,,

except i think we did find an EC-A that was built before calendar year 1974.
have to trawl back through the info in this thread.
i think its yours actually. 11/74?
(EDIT - its nihil44's EC-A).
but seems to imply an A comes after a B.

they could have been making them in anticipation knowing they were ok and ready to go? if that is the reason they were knocking them out of germany in 11/73.

be great if there were similar CARB/EPA documents out there covering the EC-B version.
i bet they date from earlier than these documents?

incredible find you have in your files.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 30 2021, 07:05 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B Yay! Just peel off the backing. Make sure the old sticker is off completely and the tin is clean. Seems to hold up so far.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 11:54 AM

found where LJet914 got the California Air Resources Board documents from.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/new-vehicle-and-engine-certification-executive-orders-my1974-passenger-cars-light-duty-trucks-and

nothing in there for EC-b.
however CARB does note the records may be incomplete.

looking around at other manufacturers documents and even some of VWs the business with rescinding the order is unusual. they also do it for the documents covering the 914 2.0 for model year 74. i can't quite understand what the document LJet914 posted means as they seem to rescind the original order (jan 74) and then replace it with the same thing (march 74)? Also the orders are quite late in date, comparable orders for other VWs and other makes of cars, including porsche for the 911 are dated sept or oct of the calendar year the model year starts. so there is some funny stuff going on where the EC-a is gettng approval in jan74 instead of sept/oct 73 where you expect it to be dated.

----

i had a good look either side in 73 and 75.
found this.
slightly off topic but worth posting.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 probably interested.
looks like Volkswagen of America was calling the 73 914 2.0 a 914S at the stage they wre submitting for CARB approval in Oct. 1972.

Posted by: Van B Nov 30 2021, 12:57 PM

shouldn't you be asleep?!

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 30 2021, 02:17 PM

The CA-only decal for the side windows was probably the clear label placed on the windshield like these below. I have several on my website on the Plates, Labels, Markings page. If you have an image of the labels I am missing, or have a better quality image, please send them to me or post it here in this thread.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 04:26 PM

yeah, should have been. woken up by a commotion in the lane.
couldn't get back to sleep.

think its a side effect of the dicktator's vid lock up, gotten used to the quiet.
its getting noisy around here again at random hours now that the lunatics have been released from the asylum.


-------

the executive order numbering system is simple.
each manufacturer gets a number after the A
VW gets A-7

then each submitted engine family gets a number in chronological order they were submitted. its starts in 73 for VAG.

1973
A-7 thru A-7-2 covers 914S, 914 1.7 and other ac vws.

1973
A-7-3(covers 914.2 from oct 73 and other ac vws)
A-7-3-A (covers 914.2 from mar 73 and other ac vws)
A-7-4 water cooled dashers.
A-7-5 (covers 914 1.8 from jan 74, and from mar 74)
A-7-6 twin carb kombi.

1974
A-7-7 thru A-7-10 covers the 75 914s and other VWs.

if its to be taken at face value there is nothing missing on CARB file unless there is an A-7-5-A revision that is missing.
seems to say only EC-A (or as its written EC-a) 1.8 have exhaust emission approval and only from from jan 74 on.

914 mystery continues.

but its safe to say there was such a thing as an EC-d and it was in 412s.
as well as the EC-a that is in 914s.
as far as california goes.
and we know there is an EC-b, its in some of our 914s.
and there probably was an EC-c. maybe in 412s.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 05:10 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

thanks for those windscreen decels jeff.
they are interesting.
strictly speaking those 1974 914s are not meeting california emissions standards.
HC and CO exceed the standard.
NOx does meet the standard.

i did come across something looking for the cal emis standards 1974.
the big three in detroit lobbied for averaging across their entire fleet of models for sale.
that way they could slide in some only half denuded muscle cars by offsetting against small economy cars that were well under the emis. limits. they were successful in their lobbying and so a fleet average applied to californian sales (and national sales).

i think VAG must have been doing the same - given those windscreen decals.
offsetting the 914s against the bigger numbers of sedans and commercials sold?

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 30 2021, 10:37 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 You are correct the A-7-5-A is the revision to the rescinded A-7-5. My 914 was built 4/74. All the ARB EO's on the page you found are only for CA certified vehicles. If the vehicle is US E.P.A 49 state certified their engine families etc do not appear within the site as they do not comply to CA emission standards.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2021, 11:10 PM

yes, its interesting.

but we have EC-B stickers which use the same wording as the EC-A stickers.
"conforms to California + USEPA regulations".

so.....it kind of doesn't clear up the mystery.
but it does point toward something called the EC-a getting firm approval either from jan 74 on or mar 74 on.




and to complicate things there is an EC-B sticker that is only USEPA conforming.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 01:21 AM

i cracked the Executive Order open a little bit more.

i found a specfication description for a retard and advance function distributor included in the Executive Order A-7-6 covering the 74 Kombi Van fitted with the dual carb version of the 1.8.

the dist is described as C-V-VR. = centrifugal + vacuum + vacuum retard.



compare it to the A-7-5 covering the EC-a engine 914 1.8.

the dist is described as C-VR = centrigugal + vacuum retard.



if they were talking about our cars with the EC-B sticker it would say C-V-VR.
our cars have the vacuum advance and vacuum retard.
(vacuum = vacuum advance function).
also our tune up sticker matches that dual functioning distributor hooked up.

in this E O they are talking about your cars (L-Jet 914).
the EC-A cars with only the distributor retard hooked up as supported by your original tune up sticker.

so the EC-A cars are approved in california from Jan 29th 1974 on for 3 months and a further 30 days and from March 25th on for 3 months and a further 30 days. which gets them to the end of production for 74 MY.

the EC-B cars are still missing in this documentation from CARB.
we know they conform to California and EPA. (or at least their sticker claims that).

i think it would be reasonable to conclude that EC-A cars kick in for sale in california after end of jan 74. (they might be making them in production a little earlier but they hit the showrooms for legit sale after that date).

which begs the question, what were porsche selling in their cali showrooms as a base model before jan 74 for MY 74. they must have had something to offer?

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 04:41 PM

i doubled checked to be sure. no change. but..............


this is in the factory manual.



i'd missed inception date of 74 1.8.
its well after 74 MY production starts - which was august 73.

compare inception date of 75. aug 74.

had a quick scout of members Vin in the big list on this site.
sure enough - couldn't turn up a 1.8 with a vin before nov 73.
its all 2.0 cars early on.
the list is not exhaustive by any means, but you would think there would be one there.

so - looks like 1.8 L Jet is late coming to the party.
don't start building them until nov 73.

anyone with a 11/73 Vin has the first month of production of L jet on the first engine to ever have it.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14058 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=11124 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 all have 11/73.

randy takes the prize. he has the earliest L jet closest to the beginning.

i don't know what they were selling in USA showrooms for the last quarter of 73.
but it wasn't 74MY 1.8s going on what i can find.
by the time they are made - nov 73, put on a ship and distributed in the USA it would be jan/early 1974.

this makes a bit more sense with the CARB EO? starting california approval jan 74.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 05:05 PM

i think i have worked out this emission sticker thing.
even though most (all so far) EC-B say conforms to california, they do not appear to send the EC-B to california.

all the EC-B i can find on internet in good condition with extensive documentation show they were sold new in states other than california.

this agrees with wonki, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 EC-B cars. known sold new on east coast.

EC-B have the vac advance hooked up.

EC-A are sent to california and have the vac advance disconnected and port plugged on throttle body. EO-7-5 proves that. stipulated in description of distributor.
tune stickers show it too. (thanks to L-JET914 for that priceless CARB document).

BUT.
brand new 74 MY base 914s are late to the showrooms and in short supply?

it appears all a dealer would have to do is disconnect the vac advance on a EC-B car and plug the port and they have an EC-A CARB approved car.

it might have been handy for stocks of 914 available in the USA at that time if they were short on cars to sell in california. just send them down there if they had to.

how they handled the sticker in legal terms i don't know.

-----

i'm beginning to think that the mythical 49 state car is one without vacuum retard.
a member here Pete000 has one with a TB that has no vac idle port. nihil44's is the same. i got a hunch that is the EC-B without cal conforming parts. you have to have vac retard for CARB. it can't be sent there for sale under any circumstances. not without swapping out the throttle body. so the stickers make it clear, its to be moved around in stock for the 49 states only.

Posted by: Van B Dec 1 2021, 05:53 PM

Ok, so I’m following everything but the fact that my car simply would not start with the vacuum retard attached. INSTANTLY floods! I’ve tried it twice and the second time I really made sure timing and idle speed were on the money.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 06:22 PM

attached or not attached?

the photos you posted show all the vac lines attached van.
retard and advance. thats how the car came to you right?

way i see it with vac retard attached its going to start easier from cold.
but once its warm its going to idle hotter (esp out in traffic). it stays retarded.

a car without vac retard attached is going to be a little harder to start from cold.
but once its warm will idle at 7.5 BTDC.
EDIT - and idle cooler too out in traffic.


------


i've never thought too hard about this before.
i never had to do anything to the car back 30 years ago.
it ran sweet-as for 15 years.
and its kind of running sweet-as again (except for the cold start being not up to what it used to be).

the thing about having no vac retard line, which i'm speculating for a 49 state car,
(and those throttle bodies are out there, with the right part # on them) is maybe the enrichment mix is tweaked on the ECU. its another area i have to go in and teach myself about. i've never had to touch the car in those areas, nor do i necessarily want to,
but i have to read the factory manual and get my head around how you can tweak the ECU. or even the AFM. other members here who have been fooling around actively with their 1.8s would really know this stuff.

i guess what i am saying is, cold the ECU definitely does adjust the fuel enrichment.
and that would be tuned or in synch with the vac retard scenario.

if you don't have vac retard (as maybe a true 49 state car is), maybe they tweaked an adjustment on the ECU from the factory. but i don't know. thats my next bit of reading.

Posted by: Van B Dec 1 2021, 06:30 PM

No man, it’s what we’ve talked about in the other thread, disconnecting the vacuum retard but leaving it open to atmosphere and then plugging the port at the throttle body. That car will not cold start without vacuum retard. Period. Tried twice, same results.
Any 914 L-Jet EC-B without a vacuum retard line will require some very different parameters from what my car has. I’m certain of that.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 06:38 PM

everything is attached on mine.
vac retard from dist to vac retard port on TB.
same for advance.
always has been.

doesn't flood on starting.
goes a bit weak on cold start as you know (but thats 90% sure the AAV getting senile).
runs and idles just fine in winter conditions in aus, out in traffic etc.
never seems like its hot.
runs great out on highway at cruise at 80 mph (don't tell the cops).
gets outstanding fuel economy for its era, clocked it at 28mpg using USA measure.

but where it does cause me concern and used to 15 years back is in high summer here.
so much so i don't like to drive it in traffic where i will get caught up in a jam.
then you can feel the heat build up under the car.
i always used to put this down to the fact it was an AC engine out of a rear engine design slapped into the middle of the car so it trapped heat.
but now i am beginning to think because it is a emissions feature, that its running hotter at standstill idle than one without retard.
and maybe that is not so good in australia?
esp if you can't keep the car moving and expelling the hot air build up underneath.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 06:45 PM

connect it back up. keep it stock. it kind of proves the point that the EC-B with the retard ports in stock form needs that retard connected.

it doesn't get real hot in maryland so you are not going to have my problem with the hotter idle.
and i guess if i disconnected mine i would get into the same trouble as yours unless you could do something to adjust things.

we will have to wait from some members who don't have the retard hooked up.
they were around a few years back.
Pete000 had the set up for sure without the retard connected.

i'm only guessing when it comes to this mythical 49 state car.
no one has presented with one that links emission sticker, to tune sticker, to original set up. its just the throttle bodies are out there on cars. whether they are original or not can't be known for sure.

Posted by: Van B Dec 1 2021, 06:53 PM

This post @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=356678&view=findpost&p=2962219
A cold start just won’t happen with the vac retard function disabled. Your assumption about the warm start is accurate based on my experience, but a cold start ain’t happening.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 07:05 PM

yeah

i can see what you are saying.

if there is such a thing as a 1.8 without that retard its got to have a different ECU or an ECU that is tweaked in some way. i agree.

nothing in the parts manual or factory workshop manual to say there is a different part involved.

pete000's could be hot rodded in some way.

i'll go and dig out the thread from 10 years ago when a whole bunch of guys got going on this. they really got things up in the air. no one could agree with each other.
the whole scenario was there. and there were two guys with cars that had no retard facility.

---------

the big thing is we can answer mr. b's proposition to starbear and i.
he said there is an EC-a and and EC-b.
and for 74 that the EC-b was the cali car and the EC-a was the 49 states.
(based on a sound technical document about the 75 cars).

but its weirder. its the other way around for 74.

---------

and we would be able to answer all those guys who were having a bit of an argument 10 years ago. they all presumed the cars were one way (and saying their way was the right way and the others were wrong, cars were modded, etc).

we know for sure.
EC-A is retard only. (and it is california conforming and CARB certified).
EC-B is retard and advance (when it has a california conforming sticker on it).

and we know narthing definitive about the EC-B without california conforming sticker.

which is a lot more than i knew 2 weeks ago.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 07:26 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B

i just took a close look at the photos @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14058 posted up.

he has got something happening there that is very probably non stock.
he has got a rebuilt throttle body that a member here refurbishes.
part of the process is boring out (remachining) the TB.
slightly increases diameter.

i'll bet this alters the ported vacuum position in relation to the throttle valve.
i'm looking at his photo and the advance port is hooked up to the retard side of the distributor (or it looks that way).
is that because the advance port is now a manifold vacuum port after the machining?
its ended up on the manifold side of the valve?

he has his advance line off distributor going into a T connector and another line and i can't tell what that does.

i think he knows what he was doing too.
he can best explain it.


must be a consequence of the refurb on the TB?
his TB has the port closed off that is in the original manifold (retard) vacuum port.

if that is all so with his TB without a "retard" port than the ECU will still run it all.
because he is getting retard at idle.

Posted by: Van B Dec 1 2021, 07:44 PM

Yeah it’s pretty cool what you sorted out with this thread. As parts become more scarce and people start developing work arounds, knowing the original comfy will be invaluable!
Hell, even with a 123 setup, it’s really important to know what the car needs for advance and retard in order to get along with the ECU!

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 07:48 PM

heres another brain bender for you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B.

from CARB executive order.

74 412s and Kombis have same ECU and AFM as 914s.

but 412s and Kombis don't have retard on distributor.

....... they are cold starting without retard but without flooding?






here is the thread from 2010 where they all get going on whats the right way to hook up a 1.8 - basically atl agree to disagree and don't get much further.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=113691

and here is the thread of rebuilding the throttle bodies.
need @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19448 to come on and tell us if he is doing anything to these throttle bodies with the retard port.

also @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=12094 he is running a TB without the "normal" retard port to throw some light on his set up. does he have retard at idle off manifold vacuum

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=271012

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 08:40 PM

ok - they are doing the cold start on the 412s and Kombis somehow with the different dizzy. you do the timing at idle with the hoses on for those.

you will have to explain to me how @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B.
but must be how they can use the same AFM and ECU?



digging into all this sh#t. and it is sh#tty to dig into it. i came across something interesting i never knew about.
vw were the first manufacturer charged with an emission cheat in 1973.
sound familiar?
there was scant mention of exactly what it was.
but i found it in detail.
it was on the 73 type 3 fastbacks and squarebacks running D jet.
two temp sensitive switches were used to alter enrichment outside a certain ambient temp range. for cold starting VW claimed.
the EPA discovered the "cheat" when VW disclosed the temp switches were there for some 74 models they were seeking approval for. vw had to take the switch out of the system.

was this the 74 1.8? is that why it is late arriving in nov. 74?
there was no detail on which 74 model was affected so who knows.

vw were lucky, the EPA did not force a recall and instead levied a $120,000 USD fine.

soon after that the EPA hit chrysler and hit them hard with a recall.

Posted by: Van B Dec 1 2021, 08:41 PM

I just spent the last 20min looking at threads on VW forums about 1.8 engines…. Holy shit, what a disaster. Guys, we’re a lucky bunch on this forum.

Here’s a little sample:
“I ment ignore TDC and 7.5 BTDC set to what advance value you want--max advanve, check type4rum for some sugestions. Mine seems to make the most power at 33.”

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 my answer would be that there is a difference in timing on the distributor. But, based on the 20min I will never get back, I don’t plan on ever looking into the VW world again lol!

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 1 2021, 08:46 PM

you don't want to go into that world.

its hard enough finding primary material that is useful without..................

just


the worst thing for me is i am sitting down here in the a-hole of the world as ava gardner called it and there is no other L jet here in town. i know a guy with a 75 running carbs and a couple who own a 6. not much use except if you want to compare door handles.

this forum is real useful.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 4 2021, 05:16 PM

i worked out where the confusion came from between 2000 and 2010 on threads here and on pelican parts over vacuum hose set ups etc.

folks had cars that were already 30+ years old. throttle bodies had been replaced. some of the set ups being argued over were not in original configuration. some throttle bodies had come from other 1.8s in the VW family of cars.

this is the basic 74 914 EC-B throttle body.




All 74 914s had manifold vacuum connected to distributor retard vacuum. all ran retard at idle for emissions. only EC-B ran vacuum advance off upstream port on TB.


here are examples of various VW throttle bodies for the 1.8 L-Jet engine.
would have been a lot of these floating around?
to make matters worse some seem to have the same part # stamped on as the 914 TB. i don't know how VW would have distinguished these parts from each other?







both EC-A examples posted here by members @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14058 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 have had their vac advance activated and an alternative source of manifold vacuum taken off the intake plenum. in other words converted to EC-B configuration.

got my head around the california emission kookery. CARB were making VW and porsche run the car retarded from ideal at all part load as well as throttle closed positions?

so much for the distributor as a fine tuning, reactive, load sensing adjustment device for engine efficiency?

california cars would have gone into slightly retarded timing of mech advance at cruise?
to do a version of trick as idle retard? forcing lower emission at the cost of fuel economy/efficiency of combustion.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B will fill that in if i have it wrong.

anyone in cali with any sense would have found a way to reconnect advance?

---

in 75 they swapped it all around.
the EC-B throttle body went on to the californian cars.
the upstream port on the TB connected to the EGR and activated it at cruise and part throttle.
the EC-A throttle body went on to the 49 state cars.
these had only the manifold vacuum port connected to the retard vacuum on distributor (no EGR or cat and no vac advance.).
i found two published versions of both cars in very good original condition showing this.


------


you can find plenty of 1.8s for sale, the images that go with the dealer ads show that over the years owners have found some pretty novel ways to find manifold vacuum off hoses directly to the plenum to activate the vacuum retard if they had a TB without the port.
suspect there were lots of the vw TBs but correct 914 TB was a bit harder to find.


------

i will deposit the documents we have found in the originality section of the website as a resource for 1,8 owners.

as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B says, so folks know what the baseline factory set up was - then its easy to think your way into work-arounds if you have to.

jeff bowlsby asked if we could do a correct vacuum hose layout for the 1.8.
but we don't have to.
there is one that is on the pelican parts site that is 100% correct and was done early on.

what did not get worked out 10 years ago was that the disconnection of the advance hose on the distributor was due to CARB. Not a chronological difference, early and late as noted in discussions 10 years ago. both versions were manufactured at the same time. production of L-Jet very likely starts in November 1973.

Posted by: Van B Dec 5 2021, 12:19 AM

As I was reading this I’m becoming more and more convinced that a programmable distributor is the way to go for an L-Jet.

Posted by: TRS63 Dec 9 2021, 08:47 AM

Hi,

Finally I can put my informations:

1. Vin Date - month and year (no need to post vin numbers if you don't want to). thats the date on the driver door sticker:


2. Karmann plate #. or if you have already done the maths, the day and week of the year the car began production.


3. Image of engine bay emission sticker (lhs above the air cleaner - white with red letters). sticker should say whether it is an EC-A or an EC-B engine and whether it is california + EPA or only EPA.
-->Sadly gone on my car probably during the repaint )

4. image of engine tune up sticker.
this is the small white sticker that is on LHS engine tin just below fan shroud.
most of them are gone by now, but some engines still have them.
Quite damaged on mine:


5. image of the throttle body. image of the distributor.
we are looking at the vacuum hose set up between the distributor and the throttle body.
Pretty dirty, no time for an engine cleaning yet :-(






Cheers

Antoine

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 9 2021, 11:41 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24690

thanks Antoine

engine looks great mate. all original in there.
can make out from tune up sticker its both hoses hooked up car from the start.
same set up as EC-B stickered cars so 99% its one of those.
from late in production - handy to know. 6/74
shows vw were definitely making the two hose connected set up well after jan 01 74 and one versus two hose hookup isn't about a chronological production change/improvement.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 9 2021, 09:21 PM

Interesting one I found trawling old ads.

EC-A.
VIN date 06/74

resolution of engine photos don't allow to see hose hook up, or what tune up sticker shows.

bill of sale is sold new in cincinnati, ohio - makes it a CARB certified EC-A that is not sold new in california.

strange thing on engine seems to be for an aftermarket temp gauge made in the 70s.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 9 2021, 09:30 PM

Not only that, but the 1.8s were the very first production cars ever to use L-Jetronic fuel injection! In many ways, they were the predecessor of basically all modern EFI systems!!

--DD

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 9 2021, 09:45 PM

member with 7/74 car got back to me.
has sold the car - can't tell us about emission sticker.

found some pics he had posted on another thread.
shows throttle body.

has EC-B set up.
looks unmeddled with inclusive of 30 years desert dust.






Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 12:22 AM

.....although to be strictly correct, it shares the honour (if you call 76 hp an honour ) with the VW 412 and the VW transporter. i knew about the 412, but before this exercise here, not the bus in 74.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 10 2021, 08:50 AM

All this sort of explains the various tinkering with setups; they were still experimenting. No rationalization for that yellow one from Ohio….

Posted by: jonferns Dec 10 2021, 12:43 PM

Here is another data point

Posted by: jonferns Dec 10 2021, 12:44 PM

And the rest (wouldn't let me attach to previous post)

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 01:29 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7631

thats a sweet looking car you have there sir. and an EC-A.

i see something interesting.
am i looking at it correctly - does the retard port on the throttle body not have a hose connected to the retard side of the distributor?

do you know which state your car was delivered and sold new.

thanks for contributing.

Posted by: jonferns Dec 10 2021, 01:45 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

There is no retard port on the throttle body. I will have to go back out and check the layout of the hoses from the distributor.

Car was delivered and sold new in California

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 01:51 PM

yes - it seems not rational @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

i suppose nothing stopping a cal. car being sold in the 49 states.
the other way round with a EC-B would have been problemtatic given CARB documentation?

by the way i worked out a tighter time period for the change over to engine bay charcoal cans. it happens sometime in the 5 days before your car was made.

this has been an interesting exercise so far.
i'm glad mr. b asked the question.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 01:58 PM

thanks mate.

i can see the retard line going off somewhere.
i'm guessing its been maybe plumbed with a T into the decel valve line?

its interesting because it maybe has the same plumbing set up as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 car.
his EC-A was sold new in california too.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 02:03 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7631 .

so your throttle body is one of these?

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 02:08 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24690 .

calling antoine.
forgot to ask, you don't happen to know where your car might have been sold new?

Posted by: Van B Dec 10 2021, 04:17 PM

That car looks unbelievably original and clean. Kinda crazy really.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 05:02 PM

it is pretty clean and original isn't it.
it has had a repaint when you look close at photos.
but its pretty good.
wonder if a member grabbed it.

they are still out there.
which astonishes me!
i found this one in my shed a couple of years ago.
a stoopid old geezer had forgotten it was there.






StarBear takes the cake but.
he has had his since new!
completely astonishing.
shows you how much people liked these cars.

the green one would have been an old geezer never going to part with it?
not while they were alive anyway!

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 06:37 PM

@Van B.
if you want to look at all the photos of that green car -

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-2/

the sale was back in 2016.
someone has transferred all the info on Vin register here already.
but no members name to it.

Posted by: Van B Dec 10 2021, 07:53 PM

Utterly fantastic example!

Posted by: L-Jet914 Dec 10 2021, 08:04 PM

Something I found interesting in some of the posts, the tension spring that connects to the throttle is connected to the rear engine tin by the transmission on some of these cars. Whereas mine is connected to the middle of the intake plenum. Weird. Also interesting to see an EC-A with no vacuum retard port on the throttle body housing.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 08:17 PM

i feel pretty sure that is because the TB has been replaced.
my car is 45K+ miles (real mileage and i am ashamed of myself i let it sit for so long) - the throttle body is just starting to get sticky.
i have to kick it off before i start it after leaving it a week.
no problem once driving, but its the tell tale sign mine is finally catching the disease.
i think letting it sit it for the time it did might have formed a slight corrosion ridge too.

the cars suffered from this relatively quickly reading back over some threads here.
so a lot of throttle bodies would have been replaced somewhere between 50K and a 100K miles? i even read reports of this happening on relatively new cars back in the day.

i believe that throttle body without a retard port is from another VW and was a cure for the problem. just replace the TB. a member here now rebuilds them very nicely if you need it done. back in the day mechanics and dealers would not have had to give it a second thought i now realise. just go find a source of manifold vacuum off the plenum and hook that to the distributor if you had a replacement TB that was not quite right. its less of a mystery to me after this thread.

as to the spring. i think off the rear engine tin is the original way for a 914 TB. but maybe if the TB is from another VW you have to reverse the spring. given the engine is the other way around in a rear engine VW. and the cable direction coming through from car?

without seeing one of those TBs in the flesh its hard to know (not many L-Jets in my neck of the woods), but thats my hunch.

Posted by: Van B Dec 10 2021, 10:28 PM

If the plate and body start to dovetail and stick closed, I would say sending it out to have it bored out and a larger plate fitted makes more sense at this point in the life cycle of these cars. Replacing with an almost right VW part was probably the go too solution 20yrs ago when these cars weren’t worth much.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 10 2021, 10:45 PM

yes, i'm going to pull it out at xmas time and take a close look.
might be a job for mr. whip while we are all still around?

i will give him instructions not to paint it or refinish it externally but.

its nice to be around a bunch of folks finally a bit excited about the "lowly" 1.8.
i gave up 30 years ago and kept to myself here because everyone sneered at it.
didn't have a 6. and was the "worst" of the 4s.
but maybe its time has come for what it is.

Posted by: Van B Dec 11 2021, 04:28 PM

Snobbery in a 914 forum proves that Porsche owners are all subject to the same temptation. I’ve only ever owned the most disparaged Porsche's and they’ve all been fantastic. I only wish my 944 has not been murdered by a Buick all those years ago. I was up to 217,000mi on the original engine in that car when it got hit.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 11 2021, 05:29 PM

ok @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 i took a look at your spring set up in your photos this morning.

could not find anyone else in photos in thread who had the spring reversed and connected to the plenum like yours.
your throttle body is the same as all of ours in terms of its top set up.
i think you need to take a look at it. the spring is there in case your throttle jambs or its main wound spring screws up and your throttle sticks wide open. its the failsafe that is meant to pull the throttle closed. the way its hooked up i think its going to do nothing?

what might have happened is someone along the way, familiar with VW rear engined set ups has, (out of habit?), hooked it up the rear engined way. which works when the throttle cable is coming through from the opposite direction. they have not thought it through properly?

i've attached an illustration from the factory manual.
i've attached a photo of a 412 engine bay where you can see how attaching the spring to the plenum would make sense for the rear engined car - but not yours?

i'm not there to see it in the flesh, but i blew up the photos and i see nothing different about your throttle body that shows its any different to ours in the top assembly, wound spring catches etc.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 11 2021, 05:36 PM

by "here" - meant the real "here" - australia.
thirty years ago it was all that NARP stuff.
so i kept to myself.


very good motors in 944s.

always fancied a 924S myself. rare car in aus that never officially came here.
few private imports from UK float around and seem to change hands for good $.
never driven a 44 but have driven a 24 at high speed cruise in western australia 30 years ago. fantastic at high speed (talking sustained 90 - 105mph for long stretches on the way up to geraldton from perth. lot more planted than a 14 at those speeds. 14 needs the nose spoiler for that stuff. i don't do that any more of course, its getting dicey here if you get pinged at that velocity by the rozzers.

when i say i keep to myself.
i hang out with another guy who keeps to himself in his beater speedster.
a scary ride in the passenger seat. i look down a lot - .......



he's got a few other beaters lying around in the workshop.
you have to get strapped in and have a fire suit and a race track for this one.
i'd need a few drinks to get in the drinkers seat with him driving.
so far i have been spared as its refused to run properly the couple of times its been released from prison when i've been around.





- back to the wheezy but fun smog engines.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 11 2021, 07:56 PM

another one dug out of back pages of internet and Vin data on this site.
formerly of AA collection.
2/74. Vin 4742914068.
(one vin # before another car with K# 0659532 = build inception date 8th Feb 74).

has two hose tune up sticker.
images show vacuum advance line connected to TB.
matches other EC-B cars here. likely EC-B
emission sticker not visible in documentation available.
noted to be a very original 10,000 m car.
info on state where sold new not available.
but car was in Atlanta for a long time.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 12 2021, 12:45 AM

heres one for you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B. your car's buddy. built 67 before yours on a friday,
yours was the following monday. hope they didn't have a hangover.

a link for you. don't know how old ad is. someone got a bargain?

https://www.grautogallery.com/vehicles/3202/1974-porsche-914


12/73 VIN 4742910723
EC-B from engine tune sticker and hose layout.
(no legible emission sticker image unfortunately - but the tune up sticker is legible).
K # 4959543. Friday 7th Dec 1973. (pearl harbour day car).
Sold new in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Posted by: Van B Dec 12 2021, 07:27 PM

Someone definitely got a deal. I’m surprised there are so many 914s out there owned by people who aren’t on this forum. I mean less than 120k were made in total and I’m sure half are dead and gone by now.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 13 2021, 03:07 AM

i'd say 2/3 are dead or on blocks or growing grass underneath them.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 13 2021, 03:33 AM

here is one for @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24260

the only pic i could find of an AN engine.
the silver 1.8 in the porsche museum.
it was a tiny image on some facebook preview page i scooted across looking for elusive EC-As.

Posted by: Arno914 Dec 13 2021, 03:58 AM

Thank you, wonkipop!

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 13 2021, 05:26 AM

this one is good.

tourist delivery - delivered Osnabrueck.
for a person who lived in hawaii.
but its to californian spec. (and its got a code attached whatever that means?)

VIn 4742916808

K# 1529514 = tuesday 9 april 1974 makes it a 4/74
(its delivered for pick up on 16 april, 7 days after its inception number stamp).

had emission stickers and tune up stickers in photos but resolution was not good enough to blow up and determine.
however it had 607 on the tin. from mr. b's website we know 607 is also on a EC-A california delivered car tin. L-Jet914 has the other EC-A variant 606 on the tin.

the EC-Bs have 604 and 605 on the tin.

fair chance its a EC-A.

checking the engine photos, it does not have advance hose from distributor to TB hooked up. in fact - no hose. i'd say this one has an original throttle body. but photos do not reveal the T/B. i'd hazard a guess this is an intact EC-A.

i wonder if mr. b has copies of this documentation and saw it at the time it was for sale.












because it got delivered new to a US citizen in germany, it got a wolfsburg radio and not a dealer installed sapphire. nice.




EDIT

Posted by: MCShack Mar 9 2022, 04:10 PM

I've read that on BaT and here a few times now about the 5 for a zero in German thing, but never see anyone speak up and confirm or dispute it, but I'm pretty sure that is not correct, however, I'm not German, don't speak, understand or write in German. What about all of the other zeros in the VIN, Chassis, Engine, Transaxle, etc, etc numbers? Why just the 5th digit of the Karmann factory at Osnabrück (correct spelling in German), Germany? I have a theory about it but hope someone with the answer will reply before I embarrass myself by suggesting something more stupid than usual.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 9 2022, 04:45 PM

my only thought on this @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 is that 5 and 6 were allocated to 914 production.
ie 5 distinguished it as 914 model, and 6 if 914 production went over 100 per day.

karmann were making beetle convertibles and karmann ghias at the same time in the factory. i'm going to guess their karmann plates use 1, 2 ,3 and 4 in the same way.
but i don't know. have not seen the karmann plates on those cars.
no official beetle convertibles were sold new in aus and the ghias are rare on the ground here.

i'm guessing this because we collected a good selection of the engine paint stamps on the 74 1.8s and its clear that VW assigned the first letter of those stamps to particular models the engines were destined for. for instance up to end of 74 the engine stamp number starts with 6 for 914s. for 412s that got the same engine (more or less) it starts with 5. for buses with type 4 motor it starts with 4. so i think in a similar way karmann were using the 5 in their plate number to mean both 914 and 914 production up to 100 cars a day?

if anyone has a ghia or a beetle convertible they could take a look at that karmann plate on their cars and confirm whether this speculation is off the mark.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 9 2022, 06:13 PM

bit more info for you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 .

number on karmann door plate (body #) is a VW convention introduced in 1970 ----- for all vw models produced at all german factories.

karmann fitted in with that VW convention.
don't know what karmann had before 1970.

k produced 3 different vw models off their relatively smaller production line at the plant,
(if compared to wolfsburg or hamburg).

still doesn't make it entirely clear about the 5 and the 6 in the 914 body number stamp.

to further confuse i think they switch it to a 0 or 1 instead of 5 or 6 in 75? (don't really know, others would).

of interest they do a number shift with the engines in 914s in 75.
they go from a 6 as the first number on the engine code paint stamp to a 9.

eg. 49 state 1974 1.8 is either a 604 or 605 engine stamp.
49 state 1975 1.8 is either a 918 or 920 engine stamp.





personally i think the last three numbers is more strictly an order number.
which happens to coincide with production number on the day, but its actually a number generated alongside an order and a build spec. the whole way down the production line would have been a piece of paper work with that number assigned to build up information. the piece (or pieces) of paper were collected at the end of the build and filed probably (But not thrown away). in the USA and in Australia you can sometimes find that build sheet paper work stuffed in the ford/gm/chrysler car somewhere. but not in a VW.

i also think the cabs and the ghias had that small plate in illustration above fitted to them, while 914s got the fancy plate in the door jamb.
if you got hold of some plates from ghias and cabs and looked at the third number from the end it would definitely shed some light.

Posted by: MCShack Mar 10 2022, 12:49 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful and timely responses. I know that Karmann was making a few different cars at the same time, presumably with a different numbering code but maybe not as different as thought. I will look into that more when I have time. The 914 Chassis numbering system changed over from the 95xx format to the 90xx format in Sept-Oct of 1974 on '75 MY cars which they started making in July of 1974, so the early '75 models have the 9500 chassis numbers and those made around the 36th or 37th week of 1974 starting getting the 9000 chassis numbers through the end of production in Dec. 1975 when the last '76 MY cars rolled off the line at the end of the following year.

One thing that I discovered was in the 36th or 37th week of 1974 not only did they switch over from the 9500 chassis numbers to the 9000 chassis numbers, but some have a 1, 2, or even a 3 in the 5th position (or 3rd # from the end) of the chassis number (ie, 9100, 9200, and 9300). The "1" in that position was always presumed to be a rollover from 0 to 1 when production exceeded 99 cars in one day, except that examples I have found of the last 3 digits are like 147 and 163 which are nearly double normal high production numbers, and I have not found any in the 110s, 120s or 130s but have a rather small sample to work with which now includes all '75 BaT cars and all '75s from 914World's database. That said, the examples I do have with a "2" or a "3" in that 5th digit position are really waay out of range with no examples of over 100 cars being made on any of the same days where those odd examples exist.

I agree with your comment about the last three numbers being more than just a chronological order of cars made on a particular day of the week and that it has something to do with a build specification. I've tried to find things in common with the cars that do not fall in the "normal" numbering order or system, but have come up with very little other than an unusually high number of the limited examples I have are cars with either tan, brown or white leatherette interiors, but some are the much more common standard black interiors. The exterior colors range almost the full gamut from Yellows to Reds to Greens, so no help there. It is difficult to gather much more data in build specs w/o window stickers or similar docs to back this up.

To your point about other cars produced by Karmann, the BMW E9 series (ie, BMW 3.0 CS) were made from 1969-1975, the exact same years as the 914, as was the Triumph TR6 series 1969-1976 in addition to the VW and Ghia cars made before, during, and after the 914 production years. Not being familiar with those cars I have not begun to look at their Chassis or VIN numbering systems to see if they have similar formats and if they were even made in Karmann's Osnabrück, Germany plant where all of the 914s were made.

Sorry for butting in and derailing this thread, but hopefully I have helped bring it back to life along with another thread on a similar subject of Chassis numbers for '75 MY cars started several years ago. I have found this thread helpful and interesting, but I will start a new thread more on point to my particular question regarding the Chassis numbers that fall completely out of the normal range of most all known numbers. Please feel free to contact me with any information you may have to help shed more light on this or related subjects.

Thank you again for your time and responses, have a great day. Cheers, MC

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 10 2022, 04:59 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305

some other stuff i dug up from files on research last year.


for comparison.
production plate for a 1974 Karmann Ghia, built jan 74
nr = 0449113

production plate for my 74 914, built jan 74
nr = 0459543 (built the day after the kg above).

production plate for 74 super beetle cabriolet. built feb 74
nr = 0659323.

for the 5th number it looks like
1 = karmann ghia.
3 = beetles (or perhaps super beetle cabs).
5 = 914s.

the numbers are spaced with a gap between.

----

also i knew i had a build sheet found in a VW tucked away somewhere.
i think i found this on a jeans beetle website run by an enthusiast but can't remember exactly anymore. anyway, thanks to that enthusiast site with acknowledgement.



i think the story was this build sheet was found under the back seat (in common with stories you hear about some fords, gms and chryslers). highly prized if happen to be in a car but not all cars had them to find.

the terms the germans use are interesting.
it called a WORK INSTRUCTION.
and very clearly it has what we would call the karmann number - or more universally throughout VW = the production number.
its called the KENN NR. which translates directly as KNOW NR.
ie know what the car is that you are building? i dunno. no pun intended.
so its really an order number that is coming through the channels from the dealers, main distributors, sales department, to the factory?

of interest this build sheet also noted the time of the day. i'm guessing its the minute of the day given its written as 81 probably made sense at wolfsburg or similar sized plant where they would have been churning them out. i think the 0 in this work order kenn number means the wolfsburg factory.

you could well be on to something with your question about the use of 6 in 914s and other numbers later in 75.
i mean - an order could get cancelled? or revised? or reassigned?
so there are all sorts of possibilities there as well as just the idea of going past 100.

production figures i calculated about 74 MY i sent through to you in a PM.
this does suggest during nov dec 73 they were making more than 100 cars a day (all of which were 1.8s). but in jan 74 this figure virtually halved as a daily number (again all of which were 1.8s). they resumed making 2.0 L cars sometime in feb 74 and mixing 1.8s with 2.0s for the rest of the MY.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 10 2022, 08:11 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305

i had a bit of a scout through the members vin register here again.

i can find quite a few 600 number 74MY cars in late 73 - which accords with the production numbers in excess of 100 per day for that period start of nov to end dec 73.
my maths has them doing 133 cars per day for those two months.
then dropping to half that rate in jan 74.
thats based on vin numbers and k numbers from members here we researched last year.

---

i went and had a quick look through the 75MY numbers you have been looking at.
mostly in that late 74 period you were talking about up to week 37.

i noticed very early on in 75MY they were still using the 500 numbers!

then after a little while they seem to be using the 000 series.

and then as you note around week 37 up popped a 300 series.

have i got that right? or have i made a mistake looking at the vin register here?

if i did read the stuff right it could be a couple of things.

a mistake on the production plate. but i note you have found others.
and its clustered around that time. so i don't think it likely was a typo mistake.

what i do know is that karmann ghia production ceases at end of 74MY and VW Sirrocco production commences. things would have possibly been in a little turmoil changing the plant over to the new line, scheduling in production start up etc.

VW head office would have been shuffling around the paperwork numbers for ordering particular models?

they were certainly doing this with the engines at that moment.
the 412 went out of production. the type 3 had gone out of production the year before.
the water cooled engines were coming in. a big reshuffle on all the engine codes was done right about that time from 74MY into 75MY across their range.

what could have happened is that 75MY started out retaining the 500 series (with 600 spillover) from years before. then VW assigned a new set of numbers in the 000 series (with 100 spillover). and then there is a glitch for a month or so where they reshuffle the numbers again and its given the 200 series (with a 300 spillover).
and then it appears to shuffle back to the 000 series and on to the end?

it could well be for a short period of time the 914 production line was assigned the 200 series with a 300 for spillover.

then it reverts.

sirroccos from that time would have production plates.
those numbers around that time - week 37 would tell a story.
possibly super beetle convertibles might as well.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 11 2022, 05:10 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305

was lying around last night feeling sh#tty from a vid booster shot.
so i did some focussed googling on beetle cabs.

here is a 75 model built week 40 of 74.
k number has a 3 in it for 5th number!




using the 3 like the week 37/38 914 you found!


i came across one more.
75 cab - week 42 of 74 using 0 as the 5th number.
the production plate looks a bit fishy though with washers under the rivets.
been off and then reattached?




bit hard to find sales ads showing these plates in beetle cabs.


but of interest.
77 model cab.
using 3 as the 5th number.



real hard to turn up Scirocco plates for 74/75.
i did find a legible one for a 79.
they were using 6 as the 5th number but.....you need a 74/75 to see what might have been going on.

def something odd in that period of time you have pinpointed.
VW cabs are getting number sequences indistinguishable from some 914s you have found!!!!! and just 3 weeks apart in time.




EDIT

bingo -
here is another one for you. maybe what you are looking for.
75MY cab. built 37 week of 74. 2 as 5th number.




tends to say VW were using 2 and 3 for beetle cabs in 74 for 75 MY.
given examples above. and were still using 3 at least in 77

but.....------> its an exact match, for the week of production, as that 75 914 you found with the 2 in its karmann plate.



????

---------------------

EDIT 2

did some further cross checking because i took a close look at the vin number tags as well.

the red one i just posted all checks out.
vin no starts with 115.
the rest of the numbers put it at aug 74 production according to beetle vin listing chart on thesamba.

there is something a bit wrong with the 77 i posted above.
it has 112 vin. thats a 71. i assume there was a typo on the sale advert and it was meant to be listed as a 71 not a 77. according to that vin kg were using the 3 on the production plates in 71.

--------------------


Attached image(s)

Posted by: MCShack Mar 13 2022, 03:24 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

Thanks for your replies, I keep finding new directions to look, but no clear answers.

Another VIN/Chassis Number thing that I also want to know is what date or what VIN number 914s did the Chassis number tags first appear in the spare tire compartment in the front trunk as can be seen in the example below located on the side of right fender wall. I'm pretty sure they were not there in 03/74 with VIN numbers approximately 4742915xx and Chassis numbers approx. 10595xx or thereabouts.

The earliest ones I have run across without doing any specific research to find the exact date range falls about 05/74 with VIN number approx. 4742918xxx and Chassis numbers approx. 21195xx or thereabouts.

I have done no scientific research and just noticed this by accident while researching for the date when the Chassis numbers changed from the 9500 format to the 9000 format sometime after week 36. Now that I have discovered this it drives me to find as close to the exact answer as possible. Previously I had thought it did not start until the '75 MY cars, but with Porsche nothing is ever that easy or clear, especially around model year changes as it seems some things change over slowly rather than on the day of the first new MY car build date.

Oh well, another new VIN/Chassis number/date project to start researching.

Cheers, MCShack!